Conquest tiering discussion

[Steeles4500]

1 minute ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Yeah, get everything up until Trample(?) and then reclass to Pally. Right?

basically just be a wyvern and reclass to a cav about when you get to hoshido, yeah

you could also pick DK as a class a A+ beruka for malig if you like that idea more, you get tomes and yato but its suboptimal.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

1 minute ago, Steeles4500 said:

basically just be a wyvern and reclass to a cav about when you get to hoshido, yeah

you could also pick DK as a class a A+ beruka for malig if you like that idea more, you get tomes and yato but its suboptimal.

Ch. 18, then?

But at least you get the window for DK, right? (Meant to be striked-through)

(Wish smart phones had access to the strike-through feature. Unless there is a hidden way to do it?)

[Steeles4500]

1 minute ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Ch. 18, then?

But at least you get the window for DK, right? (Meant to be striked-through)

(Wish smart phones had access to the strike-through feature. Unless there is a hidden way to do it?)

No idea.

Really the yato is bad because it doesn't have 1-2 range. There are basically 2 ways to play conquest.
One is get 1-2 range gods and just EP the game away, the other is to get all the units that are most likely to hit benchmarks and just get fast 2-4 turn clears on most maps so your lack of 1-2 doesnt even matter that much. Stuff like jakob, Camilla and +spd WL corrin. You probably not even gonne hit level 10 promo if you play like that so its basically kaze jakob and corrin with the prepromos.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

1 minute ago, Steeles4500 said:

Really the yato is bad because it doesn't have 1-2 range.

I guess that extra Def and Res just in case is the best use for it?

[Steeles4500]

7 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

I guess that extra Def and Res just in case is the best use for it?

If you have it in your inventory you get the bonus, that and killing takumi is about all its good for.

EDITL https://robbas-guide-fe14.tumblr.com/walkthrough-shared-destiny 
There is a good prolouge guide, its gets everyone to a decent level and makes kaze buff as hell, he comes back at level 16 lmao. His consistent binomial average stats combo together with stacking to make him very viable all game if you do this.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Steeles4500

[starburst]

28 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Yeah, Dragon talent seems better for letting others reclass to WL (like Jakob, Odin, maybe even Arthur, etc.). I kind of want to do full Nohr Noble, but I do not know how effective that is.

Nohr Noble on a +Mag Corrinette is a perfectly fine final class. It lets her tank early- and late-game, grants her powerful (and extremely easy to rank) 1-2 range attacks at the start of mid-game, has good and useful skills, is fast... You can also complement her with skills from family and friends, like the Dark Mage skills, Elbow Room and Shelter, Riposte, etc.

 

19 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

You’ll even be able to get extra Tome rank on the way while doing Kana’s paralogue (I did hear here that Kana’s paralogue is best for odd reclasses for skills and such) for Malefic Aura if you need to.

I usually do this before Chapter 12, precisely because Elise has a forced lunch break. She only gets Experience from the promoted units, and some of your units might still want to catch up, but at least let her kill the two Berserkers (she one-rounds them) to gain some points. She can also train her tomes in the west side of Ch 13.
If you are already familiar with Ch 17 and do not mind increasing your turn counts, it is also a good place to level-up some units to L5 on alternate classes, given how slow paced and confined the map is.

 

18 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

+mag paladin is strictly inferior to +mag wyvern, although id say play through the branch with +spd to hit early benchmarks

I find it cheap, but if you allow to exploit the Branch, I do not see why you care that much about the talent and thresholds. You are creating an unnecessarily strong unit. She will do fine anyway, trust me. (Unless you want to achieve a certain LTC challange.)

[Steeles4500]

3 minutes ago, starburst said:

Nohr Noble on a +Mag Corrinette is a perfectly fine final class. It lets her tank early- and late-game, grants her powerful (and extremely easy to rank) 1-2 range attacks at the start of mid-game, has good and useful skills, is fast... You can also complement her with skills from family and friends, like the Dark Mage skills, Elbow Room and Shelter, Riposte, etc.

 

I usually do this before Chapter 12, precisely because Elise has a forced lunch break. She only gets Experience from the promoted units, and some of your units might still want to catch up, but at least let her kill the two Berserkers (she one-rounds them) to gain some points. She can also train her tomes in the west side of Ch 13.
If you are already familiar with Ch 17 and do not mind increasing your turn counts, it is also a good place to level-up some units to L5 on alternate classes, given how slow paced and confined the map is.

 

I find it cheap, but if you allow to exploit the Branch, I do not see why you care that much about the talent and thresholds. You are creating an unnecessarily strong unit. She will do fine anyway, trust me. (Unless you want to achieve a certain LTC challange.)

Corrin could really use it, she is one of the most consistent units in the game but can still have a rough time reaching thresholds. Its about as close to rigging as you can get without rigging tho so i see why someone wouldnt accept it.

Nohr noble would be a decent class if she got a horse at least, but when you can be literally any class an corrin not being a flier or at least a mount is pretty stupid ngl, especially in this extremely mov centric game

[starburst]

9 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Nohr noble would be a decent class if she got a horse at least, but when you can be literally any class an corrin not being a flier or at least a mount is pretty stupid ngl, especially in this extremely mov centric game

Except that I fail to see it as 'mov-centric'. He he. For me, it is more about thresholds, that is why various units in different classes can complete the exact same tasks in the same section of the map and let you advance in a perfectly reproducible way. And also why some tasks are better done by units in less balanced classes.

For example, if the same +Mag Cornflakes would be riding a dragon or a horse, she would not be able to take the first wave at the roof of Ch 23, or to take care of some Stoneborn and one-round any Faceless and hold the lines at the top of Ch 21, or to be at the vanguard at the bottom of Ch 26. One, because those enemies would now exploit her mount weakness; two, because she would not have the enough Speed and Magic.
And it is clear to me that other units can fulfil those tasks, and that I can approach the map in a different way. But I mention it because those are good contributions in those maps and can reliably be taken care of by + Mag Nohr Noble, which you diss.

I will tell you this, keep me posted about your new campaign and take notes of the turn counts. I will compare it to my last logs (which were not focused on LTC but on critical hits), and we will see if your gameplay is really that faster than mine. I can surely learn something from your gameplay.

[Steeles4500]

11 minutes ago, starburst said:

Except that I fail to see it as 'mov-centric'. He he. For me, it is more about thresholds, that is why various units in different classes can complete the exact same tasks in the same section of the map and let you advance in a perfectly reproducible way. And also why some tasks are better done by units in less balanced classes.

For example, if the same +Mag Cornflakes would be riding a dragon or a horse, she would not be able to take the first wave at the roof of Ch 23, or to take care of some Stoneborn and one-round any Faceless and hold the lines at the top of Ch 21, or to be at the vanguard at the bottom of Ch 26. One, because those enemies would now exploit her mount weakness; two, because she would not have the enough Speed and Magic.
And it is clear to me that other units can fulfil those tasks, and that I can approach the map in a different way. But I mention it because those are good contributions in those maps and can reliably be taken care of by + Mag Nohr Noble, which you diss.

I will tell you this, keep me posted about your new campaign and take notes of the turn counts. I will compare it to my last logs (which were not focused on LTC but on critical hits), and we will see if your gameplay is really that faster than mine. I can surely learn something from your gameplay.

Sounds like a good challenge.

Ill do that

 

[Shadow Mir]

57 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Nohr noble would be a decent class if she got a horse at least, but when you can be literally any class an corrin not being a flier or at least a mount is pretty stupid ngl, especially in this extremely mov centric game

I fail to see how this game is "extremely mov-centric" - we aren't talking about Binding Blade or Genealogy of the Holy War here.

[starburst]

3 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Sounds like a good challenge.
Ill do that

Cool. Just take some notes about certain general events, like reaching S-support, promotion, rewards gotten, etc., so that it is not entirely focused on turn counts.
For example, in Lunatic, one can reliably finish Ch 7 in about nine turns, and Ch 8 in less than five; yet that might not give me the desired support-points, or the pretended Gold, or enough Experience to certain units, and so on. Consider more aspects than turn counts.

[Steeles4500]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

Cool. Just take some notes about certain general events, like reaching S-support, promotion, rewards gotten, etc., so that it is not entirely focused on turn counts.
For example, in Lunatic, one can reliably finish Ch 7 in about nine turns, and Ch 8 in less than five; yet that might not give me the desired support-points, or the pretended Gold, or enough Experience to certain units, and so on. Consider more aspects than turn counts.

id update you on that one but i got rng screwed, jakob didnt gain any speed in all 7 of the levels he got so he cant double flora, that makes the run dead.
Ill have to restart it again later.

[starburst]

55 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

id update you on that one but i got rng screwed, jakob didnt gain any speed in all 7 of the levels he got so he cant double flora, that makes the run dead.

Or, you know, you could also kill the fucker and use better units and more interesting characters.

Do not forget to start a thread on the 'Let's Stream' section to share your campaign, to let this thread be about the Conquest Tier List.

[Steeles4500]

12 minutes ago, starburst said:

Or, you know, you could also kill the fucker and use better units and more interesting characters.

Do not forget to start a thread on the 'Let's Stream' section to share your campaign, to let this thread be about the Conquest Tier List.

If you think anyone except corrin at ch8 can even compare to jakob then its clear we wont every agree on anything so ill just stop there.

[starburst]

3 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

If you think anyone except corrin at ch8 can even compare to jakob then its clear we wont every agree on anything so ill just stop there.

I was joking, for I had already told you that I often killed him in Chapter 6.
In any case, I am not the one whining about the level-ups of a unit, specially a so highly regarded one.

You see, for someone who has spent the last couple of pages toying with numbers, it is rather funny that you decide to discard units which you do not normally use based on some attack misses; yet, when your champion (whose growths and thresholds you have previously calculated) gets stat screwed, you decide to start over the whole game hoping that this time his numbers will add up. I do not know, mate; laugh.

Drop me a line when you create your thread on 'Let's Stream'.

Edited January 28, 2019 by starburst

[joshcja]

4 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

If you think anyone except corrin at ch8 can even compare to jakob then its clear we wont every agree on anything so ill just stop there.

There is a video, in thread, of base Silias doing Jakobs shtic on ch8.

Elise is neither PP nor EP she's an aurabot that can turn multiple PP units into EP units.

Edited January 28, 2019 by joshcja

[Steeles4500]

4 hours ago, starburst said:

I was joking, for I had already told you that I often killed him in Chapter 6.
In any case, I am not the one whining about the level-ups of a unit, specially a so highly regarded one.

You see, for someone who has spent the last couple of pages toying with numbers, it is rather funny that you decide to discard units which you do not normally use based on some attack misses; yet, when your champion (whose growths and thresholds you have previously calculated) gets stat screwed, you decide to start over the whole game hoping that this time his numbers will add up. I do not know, mate; laugh.

Drop me a line when you create your thread on 'Let's Stream'.

Hitrates was me being pissy, my bad.

But the growths, ok so jakob literally did not proc speed a single time. If arthur or silas leveled 6 times and got nothing would you still use them? By that logic the only good units are prepromos, which is basically a 0% approach.

NGL i should just start doing 0% strats.

[joshcja]

3 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Hitrates was me being pissy, my bad.

But the growths, ok so jakob literally did not proc speed a single time. If arthur or silas leveled 6 times and got nothing would you still use them? By that logic the only good units are prepromos, which is basically a 0% approach.

NGL i should just start doing 0% strats.

Yes.

Edited January 28, 2019 by joshcja

[Zoran]

23 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

I meant strat for the overall game, and like i just made the edit i was trying to train his lance rank so there was a miss chance.

I almost flatout refuse to use wyvern elise. It just doesnt make sense. She might be able to barely hit benchmarks early game but with stats like that no amount of bolt axe malig is gonna make you work as an EP unit.

Check my posts in this thread for video examples of wyvern Elise, Odin, and Silas taking over the main combat duties in the early game.

[starburst]

6 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

But the growths, ok so jakob literally did not proc speed a single time. If arthur or silas leveled 6 times and got nothing would you still use them? By that logic the only good units are prepromos, which is basically a 0% approach.

Well, you had calculated the possibilities of Jakob’s getting certain points of Speed within those levels. You saw that the probability of failure was very low and played against it. You then lost your own bet. What does this tell you?

Yet when we asure you that some units perform in a certain way e-v-e-r-y time, you dismiss it. Go figure.

I do not know the odds of Odin’s being able to go the full ‘The Walking Dead’ holding a Nosferatu tome. But based on my experience, it has a 100 % chance of success.

I do not know the probabilities of Ophelia and Odin’s getting enough Magic and Skill to one-round every Stoneborn, or of Mozu and Effie’s getting enough power to one-round any Faceless in Chapter 21. My experience? 100 %.

You get the point.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

Shouldn’t some of this discussion right now fit better in the Lunatic Club thread?

[Steeles4500]

36 minutes ago, starburst said:

Well, you had calculated the possibilities of Jakob’s getting certain points of Speed within those levels. You saw that the probability of failure was very low and played against it. You then lost your own bet. What does this tell you?

Yet when we asure you that some units perform in a certain way e-v-e-r-y time, you dismiss it. Go figure.

I do not know the odds of Odin’s being able to go the full ‘The Walking Dead’ holding a Nosferatu tome. But based on my experience, it has a 100 % chance of success.

I do not know the probabilities of Ophelia and Odin’s getting enough Magic and Skill to one-round every Stoneborn, or of Mozu and Effie’s getting enough power to one-round any Faceless in Chapter 21. My experience? 100 %.

You get the point.

Id move it to luna club but its basically just bashing my head against a wall.

 

No, odin CANNOT do the things he says you do if he doesn't get stats. Silas cant even outside of very early game. Non prepromo units have to get growths, And odin has 50% in just about every catgory as well as terrible bases.and needs to hit ridiculous benchmarks to be able to do his nostank shitck past the early game.

 

I ran the numbers you the insane luck you would need for these units to be even remotely as strong as you guys claim earlier in the thread, the numbers.are very low.

 

Your guys whole playstyle basically assumes fantastic growth luck on every unit. The reason corrin and jakob.are so good is because they hit the benchmarks more consistently but still have to get some.growth luck to get effict clears.

 

[joshcja]

18 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Id move it to luna club but its basically just bashing my head against a wall.

 

No, odin CANNOT do the things he says you do if he doesn't get stats. Silas cant even outside of very early game. Non prepromo units have to get growths, And odin has 50% in just about every catgory as well as terrible bases.and needs to hit ridiculous benchmarks to be able to do his nostank shitck past the early game.

 

I ran the numbers you the insane luck you would need for these units to be even remotely as strong as you guys claim earlier in the thread, the numbers.are very low.

 

Your guys whole playstyle basically assumes fantastic growth luck on every unit. The reason corrin and jakob.are so good is because they hit the benchmarks more consistently but still have to get some.growth luck to get effict clears.

 

Jakob and Corn both have low bases and inconsistent middle of the road growths.

[Zoran]

14 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

No, odin CANNOT do the things he says you do if he doesn't get stats. Silas cant even outside of very early game. Non prepromo units have to get growths, And odin has 50% in just about every catgory as well as terrible bases.and needs to hit ridiculous benchmarks to be able to do his nostank shitck past the early game.

I ran the numbers you the insane luck you would need for these units to be even remotely as strong as you guys claim earlier in the thread, the numbers.are very low.

Your guys whole playstyle basically assumes fantastic growth luck on every unit. The reason corrin and jakob.are so good is because they hit the benchmarks more consistently but still have to get some.growth luck to get effict clears.

Stats are fungible. Speed can stand in for defenses by allowing faster guard gauge buildup. High defenses become high attack when they allow you to use attack stance instead of guard stance, and conversely high attack can mean more durability when you don’t need the extra damage from attack stance and can pair up. Silas is a good example—he continues doing things that Paladin Jakob could also do, even though Jakob is faster for a long time, because his lead in defense lets him take on enemies mainly in attack stance.

Odin is actually particularly flexible because his favorite tome translates his attack stat (and, to some extent, his skill and luck) into defenses and back; getting ahead on one makes up for falling behind in the other.

My videos all use average stats because they are the most common outcome at any given level, but it's not essential for you to hit exactly your average growths. There are tonics, meals, and stance options that you can adjust as needed to make up any deficiencies. You are vanishingly unlikely to have bad results across the board over ten levels on units like Odin and Silas who have high personal growths.

[starburst]

2 hours ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Shouldn’t some of this discussion right now fit better in the Lunatic Club thread?

You are right, mate.

Steeles4500, I quoted your message and replied to it on the Lunatic Club Thread, so that we can continue over there.
https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/61499-the-lunatic-club-fates/&do=findComment&comment=5382706