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Conquest tiering discussion

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20 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

I read it the first time, and my biggest issue is saying that early joins units are better then late join units on their join.

That is complete rubbish, Odin only has a 26% chance to reach Leo's base speed, a .2% chance to reach his base mag (lmao), and a 42% chance to reach his base def, If we take him 20/20. His bases and growth are not competitive at all with him, Odin has the Nos meme but he wont outstat leo on join.

Also why discount xander because he has Siegfried? Thats why hes overpowered in the first place,if you take nos away from odin hes E rank too.

And xanders bases are way better then silas. To do the same 20/20 argument again, Silas only has a chance of 11% to reach Xander def on 20/20 promo, a 50% chance to reach his speed (which is already pretty bad to begin with) and a 16% chance of getting his str. These are insanely Bad odds that they will hold up.

This is also a big reason as to why child units are so good, since they join after ch18 with a free promotion and actual base stats, and inherit nice skills from their early game fathers and mothers.

Xander has a 0% chance to reach Silias's bases for 8 chapters of the game (+paralouges) and needs 5-10 maps to reach Silias's A+ and S support modifiers, skills, and Seigbert is not named Sophie. 

Similarly by the time Leo joins Odin has already dipped for skills, and has A+ and S going. Also Ophelia.

Xander and Leo can catch up as early as ch21 but their early counterparts are picking up x/15 skills as early as ch22 with stat's buffed 2-3 over average by a light rig.

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3 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Xander has a 0% chance to reach Silias's bases for 8 chapters of the game (+paralouges) and needs 5-10 maps to reach Silias's A+ and S support modifiers, skills, and Seigbert is not named Sophie. 

Similarly by the time Leo joins Odin has already dipped for skills, and has A+ and S going. Also Ophelia.

Xander and Leo can catch up as early as ch21 but their early counterparts are picking up x/15 skills as early as ch22 with stat's buffed 2-3 over average by a light rig.

Riggin isn't an argument, the more you bring it up the less valid your argument is. With rigging i can get kaze to level 10 before the route split with camilla level bases. Then it just becomes availability emblem 

And yes silas is very strong in the first half as is Nos Odin, but really you either bench them or use their kids that have bases instead after chapter 16 because they cant keep up without majorly blessed rng.

Edited by Steeles4500

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11 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Riggin isn't an argument, the more you bring it up the less valid your argument is. With rigging i can get kaze to level 10 before the route split with camilla level bases. Then it just becomes availability emblem 

And yes silas is very strong in the first half as is Nos Odin, but really you either bench them or use their kids that have bases instead after chapter 16 because they cant keep up without majorly blessed rng.

Not really?

Skill/support lead is huge. As in double digit numbers huge. This lasts to third shop where the more powerful units maintain an exp lead from simply doing more combat. (In the case of MNSilias/SorcOdin this is a burial. Snowballs snowball yo). Even ignoring this at third shop we can simply skip every single chapter where Xander or Leo would outpreform our early joins.

Rig is unessecary but worth noting as you seem to feel stats matter for... reasons?

Bad example, we have no reliable rig at Kaze join and he joins maingame after Camilia who we can already outstat at join without the rig.

Edited by joshcja

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3 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Not really?

Skill/support lead is huge. As in double digit numbers huge. This lasts to third shop where the more powerful units maintain an exp lead from simply doing more combat. (In the case of MNSilias/SorcOdin this is a burial. Snowballs snowball yo). Even ignoring this at third shop we can simply skip every single chapter where Xander or Leo would outpreform our early joins.

Rig is unessecary but worth noting as you seem to feel stats matter for... reasons?

Its basically that these early units have a much higher chance of falling off, a stacked xander can roll the second half guaranteed while silas still needs to hit alot of thresholds in order to outcompete xander. Yes they matter a ton in the early game but they certainly care not gonna keep up with xander who makes better use of his resources after join.

Also there is all this talk of attack stance heavy play on sernes but i dont understand it. There is no reason not to enemy phase juggernaut the whole game with backpacks, its easier, faster, and more efficent. Especially when the game gives you extremely powerful prepromo kids and royals and a TON of pair up bots and statboosting mechanics, no reason not to build up a stacked guard stance only wyvern army.

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4 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Its basically that these early units have a much higher chance of falling off, a stacked xander can roll the second half guaranteed while silas still needs to hit alot of thresholds in order to outcompete xander. Yes they matter a ton in the early game but they certainly care not gonna keep up with xander who makes better use of his resources after join.

Also there is all this talk of attack stance heavy play on sernes but i dont understand it. There is no reason not to enemy phase juggernaut the whole game with backpacks, its easier, faster, and more efficent. Especially when the game gives you extremely powerful prepromo kids and royals and a TON of pair up bots and statboosting mechanics, no reason not to build up a stacked guard stance only wyvern army.

This would be true if MN Silias and Sorc!Odin didn't reliably hit every threshold in guard stance.

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1 minute ago, joshcja said:

This would be true if MN Silias and Sorc!Odin didn't reliably hit every threshold in guard stance.

Show the math, and we can discuss it further. I am interested. 

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24 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Show the math, and we can discuss it further. I am interested. 

Song+3, Tonic+2, Meal+2, Rally+4, Pairup +6. +17 speed

Odin (full invest for damage ignoring Ophy): +2 mal, +3 Riposte, +3/+5 Eroom/Trample , +10LaD = +18-20 damage per hit

Silias (MN): +3 Vow, +3 Riposte, +3 Eroom, +5 Faire, +5-+2 trample/Str+2 = +16-19 damage per hit.

Both self heal with innate autobenchmark hp/def/res.

Leo starts with +2 v Odin's potential +8, Xander starts with +6 vs Silias's potential +11. Both Silias and Odin have A+/S supports running for between +2 and +3 higher adds on benchmark stats at their competitors joins. This is a +9-+7 lead on stack before stats come into play on damage output and we will always have our other stats to do-job.

The probability of either unit dropping enough growths to go below benchmarks is borderline impossible.

For the sake of argument let's assume that bit of insanity happens, great, we have stat boosters. Which Leo and Xander will always need to perform the same job.

There is no RNG here, our math is simple addition. We will just hit benchmark stats on early units every, single, time.

Edited by joshcja

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3 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Song+3, Tonic+2, Meal+2, Rally+4, Pairup +6. +17 speed

Odin (full invest for damage ignoring Ophy): +2 mal, +3 Riposte, +3/+5 Eroom/Trample , +10LaD = +18-20 damage per hit

Silias (MN): +3 Vow, +3 Riposte, +3 Eroom, +5 Faire, +5-+2 trample/Str+2 = +16-19 damage per hit.

Both self heal with innate autobenchmark hp/def/res.

Leo starts with +2 v Odin's potential +8, Xander starts with +6 vs Silias's potential +11. Both Silias and Odin have A+/S supports running for between +2 and +3 higher adds on benchmark stats at their competitors joins.

The probability of either unit dropping enough growths to go below benchmarks is borderline impossible.

For the sake of argument let's assume that bit of insanity happens, great, we have stat boosters. Which Leo and Xander will always need to perform the same job.

There is no RNG here. We will just hit benchmark stats on early units every, single, time.

how do you have rally speed that early?

also inspiring song wont be active every turn but ill still count it.
How in the mother or fuck does silas have trample and shurikenfaire before xander join.

how in the mother of god does odin have trample, life and death, and elbow room before the join of Leo.

This also completely ignored defense which is fine for odin because he has a vantage setup but not for silas.

Mainly tell me how they get all those skills at that time.

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10 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

how do you have rally speed that early?

also inspiring song wont be active every turn but ill still count it.
How in the mother or fuck does silas have trample and shurikenfaire before xander join.

how in the mother of god does odin have trample, life and death, and elbow room before the join of Leo.

This also completely ignored defense which is fine for odin because he has a vantage setup but not for silas.

Mainly tell me how they get all those skills at that time.

Read it again. Both full 2nd and and third shop were compared.

Silias has natural bulk comparable to Xander + Sol

Edit: We can capture in Leo's join for very early rally speed or just... live with +13 until ch13 rallyman.

(Ohhell, I forgot fancy foot work, forgive me Laslow! It's +14/+18)

Edited by joshcja

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3 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Read it again. Both full 2nd and and third shop were compared.

Silias has natural bulk comparable to Xander + Sol

silas averages out with 14 def as a 20/20 promo into master ninja, all his classes have very similar class def growths so it doesnt change it, and at most it may add or retract one point of def. WIth the binomial averages (https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx) i would count anything with over 90% probability as average.

14 def isnt even on the same plane as xander with sol. if we add in VoF its 17 def which is still nowhere near 27 with sol. dracoshield gives him to 19 which is still 8 points behind xander.

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50 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

This is also a big reason as to why child units are so good, since they join after ch18 with a free promotion and actual base stats, and inherit nice skills from their early game fathers and mothers.

The latest that I recruit a child is right after Chapter 14 (Velouria.) The other two or three children are already promoted by then (at Level 18-20.)

If your are using maths for the Tier List, you are right. But if you are also talking about what happens during gameplay (and it seems to me that you do), it does not matter that much. It feels as if you were playing the game with fear, at the same time that your comments tell me that you know better.

It does not matter if Leo and Xander have better numbers that Odin and Silas if the latter do the same or better. If we were giving advice to a new user, then, yes, I would also suggest that he use Leo and Xander, for they are easier, safer units. But to a user with more experience, I would argue that Silas is just as good or better than Xander; which is exactly what I am doing with you. Silas does not need to reach the same Defence points as Xander at 20/20 to be as good, he only needs to reach enough Defence to complete the particular task that he was asked to do in a particular section of a certain map.

People will tell you that you need a panzer wielding a Beast Killer to complete Chapter 19. Guess what, Sniper Effie or Sniper Mozu with a Short Bow do it too. And Paladin Sophie and Hero Silas and Nohr Noble or Dark Knight Corrinette... You just need to reach enough Defence and complete a single task. I do it every time. (Oh!, and the super Guard Stance companions are some of Kaze, Ophelia, Nina, Odin, Anna, Velouria; none of which give defensive bonuses.)

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11 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

silas averages out with 14 def as a 20/20 promo into master ninja, all his classes have very similar class def growths so it doesnt change it, and at most it may add or retract one point of def. WIth the binomial averages (https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx) i would count anything with over 90% probability as average.

14 def isnt even on the same plane as xander with sol. if we add in VoF its 17 def which is still nowhere near 27 with sol. dracoshield gives him to 19 which is still 8 points behind xander.

That looks low AF but sure.

Add a Draco pairup for +whatever at S rank when Def is needed over speed.

Tack on a full def stack of that's also needed FSR for another +10.

Assuming 14 base (I have never seen this) we hit 31+ effective def before Aura's (up to +8 more)

We live. Thugs die, and things actually attack us.

Edited by joshcja

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16 minutes ago, joshcja said:

That looks low AF but sure.

Add a Draco pairup for +whatever at S rank when Def is needed over speed.

Tack on a full def stack of that's also needed FSR for another +10.

Assuming 14 base (I have never seen this) we hit 31+ effective def.

We live. Thugs die, and things actually attack us.

14 base + tonic (2) + rally def (4)= 20 def
thats pretty solid yeah, silas still needs to be botted by kaze to double shit with his dreadful average speed at 20/1 MN of 20, which is abysmal for a unit that has almost all their class bases in speed. 

hes coming out with 16 str so he really is carried by all that stack, so he does remain probably the best ninja on the route because he actually does have solid EP. Ninjas is hard to justify anyway, since they are a footlock class.

If,which is clearly true, we can stack just about anyone to high hell, why do it on a footlock and not a wyvern or something.

Edit: OK so this is where i gotta ask about berserkers too. You say Arthur is a fantastic combat unit as a berserker, but his bases are so trash they you really gotta early promo him. Being a footlock it already takes alot of effort to even get him to level 10 to early promo in the first place


For all that we get 17str, 11speed,10 def, 6 mov. 

6 mov alone means you hit the bench in this game, and his speed and def leave alot to be desired. For such an offense focused unit he has about the same speed as jakob in malig who is also dreadfully slow, diffrence is that its his only weakness so he calls dips on speed pairups and has way more damage to his broken skills.

Anyone else touching a footlock class for anything other than skills is unviable because mov. Hell, even nos odin in the earlygame is hard to justify when its less reliable and slower and the unit falls off.

Edited by Steeles4500

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51 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

14 base + tonic (2) + rally def (4)= 20 def
thats pretty solid yeah, silas still needs to be botted by kaze to double shit with his dreadful average speed at 20/1 MN of 20, which is abysmal for a unit that has almost all their class bases in speed. 

hes coming out with 16 str so he really is carried by all that stack, so he does remain probably the best ninja on the route because he actually does have solid EP. Ninjas is hard to justify anyway, since they are a footlock class.

If,which is clearly true, we can stack just about anyone to high hell, why do it on a footlock and not a wyvern or something.

I've never seen MNlias not cap statue boosted str. 20+12 doubles in 17 ez. After that we're at or pushing 20/5 and can ride a 9-12 move birb to victory.

We stack everything it's the abusable mechanic of fates. SolMN/VSorc and to a lesser extent Talismanstack Xander are just notable for being units that can be used in situations where Birbs and Ponys cannot.

As Wyvern skills are mentioned the units in question are perfectly capable of jumping into birb.

We have no reason not to birb when it's useful.

Our priority goes to early units because... They Exist.

Edit: Arthur has +15 stack on a Draco S and access to +1 move on his A+ with a Niles/Be support locked and loaded whenever it's needed. He also is an irreplacable font of AI manipulation. Pretty good for a ch7 join. He also has the highest axe rank in the game at any given time.

As for attack stance. If a unit ain't blending it's solid. With aurabots (stacked auras on a unit like MK Elise) this becomes a really potent tactic for the 9+ not guard stanced units we're using. Past that it's just... another useful tool in the box and is just plain better than guard stance when we don't need GS.

Edited by joshcja

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1 hour ago, Steeles4500 said:

Also there is all this talk of attack stance heavy play on sernes but i dont understand it. There is no reason not to enemy phase juggernaut the whole game with backpacks, its easier, faster, and more efficent. Especially when the game gives you extremely powerful prepromo kids and royals and a TON of pair up bots and statboosting mechanics, no reason not to build up a stacked guard stance only wyvern army.

In my case, because I find it boring. A common saying about Awakening and Birthright is that you can solo the game with Daraen or Ryoma and a strong pair-up. But why would I fucking want to do that?

All this efficiency, and monsters, and 'backpacks'... why would you want to play super safe in a game that can clearly be completed playing otherwise?
If you prefer to field as many as possible super powerful high-mobility juggernauts with 'backpacks' in Endgame, do it, mate, it is your game. I am only letting you know that it can also be completed with no royals, no Jakob, no Gunther, only eight foot units and one mounted unit and one healer on a horse. And it surely can be completed with less or worse units, but I have never cared for that sort of challenge; I simply use the units which I like.


Oh, wait! I forgot to mention that I have also used Mechanist Anna with the Hunter's Knife to face Kitsunes on Enemy Phase in Chapter 19. Yay! Go, tanks!

Edited by starburst

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32 minutes ago, starburst said:

In my case, because I find it boring. A common saying about Awakening and Birthright is that you can solo the game with Daraen or Ryoma and a strong pair-up. But why would I fucking want to do that?

All this efficiency, and monsters, and 'backpacks'... why would you want to play super safe in a game that can clearly be completed playing otherwise?
If you prefer to field as many as possible super powerful high-mobility juggernauts with 'backpacks' in Endgame, do it, mate, it is your game. I am only letting you know that it can also be completed with no royals, no Jakob, no Gunther, only eight foot units and one mounted unit and one healer on a horse. And it surely can be completed with less or worse units, but I have never cared for that sort of challenge; I simply use the units which I like.


Oh, wait! I forgot to mention that I have also used Mechanist Anna with the Hunter's Knife to face Kitsunes on Enemy Phase in Chapter 19. Yay! Go, tanks!

On a Tier list topic the name of the game is ease and consistency, while not being too overly slow.

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19 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

On a Tier list topic the name of the game is ease and consistency, while not being too overly slow.

This is in fact what is being discussed.

------------

Starburst is just also actively hyping his favorite run instead of just saving the effort of typing it every time by plugging it in his siggy. He knows his stuff.

We're all emotionally wracked by Drank Odin right now.

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5 minutes ago, joshcja said:

This is in fact what is being discussed.

------------

Starburst is just also actively hyping his favorite run instead of just saving the effort of typing it every time by plugging it in his siggy. He knows his stuff.

We're all emotionally wracked by Drank Odin right now.

besides the inefficency of it, Odin doesnt even have the ability to hit stat benchmarks to nostank all game anyway. Ophelia sorta can but even then its pretty unlikely.

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41 minutes ago, joshcja said:

We're all emotionally wracked by Drank Odin right now.

He he he. You summarised it perfectly.

 

1 hour ago, Steeles4500 said:

On a Tier list topic the name of the game is ease and consistency, while not being too overly slow.

Fair enough, mate. Let us focus on the Tier List.

The thing is that the author of this thread never offered to organise polls or collect the votes (I am in no way criticising him, just stating what happened.) It all started because he commented about the latest Reddit tier list. Some users have been posting the evolving results from Reddit, and we have been discussing it. I only remember one user posting his personal tier list.
Then either most users agreed with what had been decided on Reddit or expressed ideas about exactly the opposite.

In any case, most of the discussion, here and on Reddit, revolves around the low-tiered units, for most people agree on the top-tiered ones. Even those who prefer to use other units still ranked Xander, Camilla and Jakob 1 at the top, along with Azura, Niles and Corrin. Thus, in my opinion, it is the low-tiered units who bring more to the table. Like those comments by Bear Man explaining why, in his opinion, Kearon and Benny should have been ranked higher, for example.

So, do you want to pick a unit and discuss it? You and joshcja have already mentioned Odin, but still have very different opinions about him. And I also brought him up a couple of pages back. You, guys have been discussing Silas just recently.

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4 minutes ago, starburst said:

He he he. You summarised it perfectly.

 

Fair enough, mate. Let us focus on the Tier List.

The thing is that the author of this thread never offered to organise polls or collect the votes (I am in no way criticising him, just stating what happened.) It all started because he commented about the latest Reddit tier list. Some users have been posting the evolving results from Reddit, and we have been discussing it. I only remember one user posting his personal tier list.
Then either most users agreed with what had been decided on Reddit or expressed ideas about exactly the opposite.

In any case, most of the discussion, here and on Reddit, revolves around the low-tiered units, for most people agree on the top-tiered ones. Even those who prefer to use other units still ranked Xander, Camilla and Jakob 1 at the top, along with Azura, Niles and Corrin. Thus, in my opinion, it is the low-tiered units who bring more to the table. Like those comments by Bear Man explaining why, in his opinion, Kearon and Benny should have been ranked higher, for example.

So, do you want to pick a unit and discuss it? You and joshcja have already mentioned Odin, but still have very different opinions about him. And I also brought him up a couple of pages back. You, guys have been discussing Silas just recently.

I think ill just have to try your strats since im a bit suspicious.

You and @joshcja throw me what i should do for whatever you guys consider optimal CQ and ill try it out myself

Using silas ofc and odin with nos early, id guess a DM corrin to use nos and completely ignore using paladin jakob. 

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11 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

I think ill just have to try your strats since im a bit suspicious.
You and @joshcja throw me what i should do for whatever you guys consider optimal CQ and ill try it out myself

Then by all means let joshcja propose the units. He is the better player, plays more aggressively and has more experience in Lunatic.
You might still want to suggest some units that you want to try, though, for I have read a couple of his PMU campaigns and he still completed the game with a diversity of units and not much sweat.

I just finished my last campaign, thus I could also follow and try the suggestions myself. And since you like to crunch the numbers, we could approach one chapter in a certain way and you can check its feasibility. (I try to go fast but I am not that much into LTC, mind you, for I prefer to use the characters which I like, even if another unit would reduce the turn count.)

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36 minutes ago, starburst said:

The thing is that the author of this thread never offered to organise polls or collect the votes (I am in no way criticising him, just stating what happened.)

Hm. Are polls the best way to decide things?

 

Most of the tier lists we've hosted on SF in the past have usually had the TC update the list in the OP responding to discussion in the thread. In practice, I've been very lazy with the thread (I got caught up in a game of forum mafia, sorry).

If users think there are pressing issues with the list in the OP I'm happy to act on them. Although I'm still thinking that the overall structure might need an overhaul; I think S would look best if it was less populated (leaving Camilla, Azura and maybe Corrin) and units in other tiers would be pushed down through the flow-on effect.

 

 

I wish there was more footage / detailed playlogs of this game available.

Edited by Dean

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24 minutes ago, starburst said:

Then by all means let joshcja propose the units. He is the better player, plays more aggressively and has more experience in Lunatic.
You might still want to suggest some units that you want to try, though, for I have read a couple of his PMU campaigns and he still completed the game with a diversity of units and not much sweat.

I just finished my last campaign, thus I could also follow and try the suggestions myself. And since you like to crunch the numbers, we could approach one chapter in a certain way and you can check its feasibility. (I try to go fast but I am not that much into LTC, mind you, for I prefer to use the characters which I like, even if another unit would reduce the turn count.)

Units i am interested in seeing are arthur, Nostanks in general and how they scale lategame, kinshis like mozu, and child units in general.

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4 minutes ago, Dean said:

Hm. Are polls the best way to decide things?

Lost in translation, mate. I meant the individual discussions about each unit, not actual voting polls.

 

5 minutes ago, Dean said:

If users think there are pressing issues with the list in the OP I'm happy to act on them. Although I'm still thinking that the overall structure might need an overhaul; I think S would look best if it was less populated (leaving Camilla, Azura and maybe Corrin) and units in other tiers would be pushed down through the flow-on effect.

I wish there was more footage / detailed playlogs of this game available.

And I agree on both accounts. A better structure would be great. Let me know if I can be of any help.
And detailed play logs is something that I value (specially when I had just got the game) to learn different approaches to a map and diverse uses of units. I even asked some users that I had interacted with regularly if they had any logs I could check.

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Ok i was gonna use arthur but even trying to use him in CH7 has already created issues. He managed to miss every single attack stance and got my other units constantly crit due to his personal skill.

Nvm it doesnt affect allies, effie still got crit 3 times tho.

Edit: Forgot it im not even gonna deal with it, if i can constantly miss 94% hits in ch7 there is no chance i could even begin to use a growth unit in any aspect.

Edited by Steeles4500

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