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Conquest tiering discussion

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3 hours ago, joshcja said:

Silias can tank maps and has the stack to brave sword down tacomeat no-proc in Hero (This is new tech). He's completely busted.

Can you pull this off? I have Hero Silas at:

33 STR (cap)
+ 4, at most, from statues (+STR Corrin, Beruka, Effie, Sophie, not counting level 3 Siegbert)
+ 3 Vow of Friendship
+ 5 Trample (marry Beruka or Camilla)
+ 3 Elbow Room
+ 2 Strength +2
+ 1 Defender
+ 7 Berserker Corrin (+STR, -HP/SPD/DEF) A Rank Guard Stance
+ 2 Supportive
+ 4 Rally STR
+ 1 Fancy Footwork
+ 2 Tonic
+ 3 Sword A Rank
+ 1 A Rank WTA
+ 6 Brave Sword might
------------
= 77 total attack

This hits the mark exactly without spending Corrin's marriage on him, but you still have to have a specific boon/bane and marriage setup. Marrying Samurai Corrin makes the margin much wider with Swordfaire & Life and Death over Trample & Strength +2.

Edited by Zoran

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You got it.

The kill setup is wonky because we need VoF up so a +12 or higher Be is still our best option for cost/flexibility.

Edit: Something I keep meaning to do but have been far too lazy to look at (because it's a ton of work) is comparing early join units in their ideal classes at 15/1 to WL/MK Camilia to see just how good she really is. (This is pretty much a ch11+ comparison)

I have a feeling that 15/1 MKElise/WL Percy is strictly better... will be notlazy soon.

Edited by joshcja

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19 hours ago, joshcja said:

Worth noting that Silias can always run both Draco and MN.

As for defenses... yeah I got ninjaed. Silias has to work to not 0 out damage on some maps and with Kaze coming after ch11 he can double RYOMA in ch12. Mid to lategame SolMN Silias can tank maps and has the stack to brave sword down tacomeat no-proc in Hero (This is new tech). He's completely busted.

I've come around to a WL>Pala>MK>WL progression on Jakob. WL is so much better early it's unreal and we can use sophies map's seal to do this without super shenanigans.

That is close to my exact ch7 strat for WElise. (I dump Effie)

Oh god, CH13 Odin. This will be a treat. Wonder if he gets to 20/2?

D rank. Ahahahahahahehehe

Mozu is a known strong unit in LCQ by people who don't Drank Odin.

For your Jakob to WL, I'm guessing you're using dragon talent female Corrin? Who do you S for Silas to achieve it early (or is second shop timing early to you?)?

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On 14/1/2019 at 3:57 PM, Zoran said:

So Silas with VoF up basically trades a few points in everything else for 2 defense. This is not as bad as you might think for a few reasons. One, Silas still has just enough speed at base to reasonably reach doubling thresholds on enemies in chapters 8, 9, 10, and 11, and that's when more +SPD pair-up options start arriving. Two, he has overall better growths; Silas will erase the 1-point deficit in STR pretty soon and will expand his DEF lead. The superior Defense makes Silas better than Jakob for attack stance purposes; Jakob will tend to do better with dedicated guard stance support.

 

21 hours ago, joshcja said:

As for defenses... yeah I got ninjaed. Silias has to work to not 0 out damage on some maps and with Kaze coming after ch11 he can double RYOMA in ch12. Mid to lategame SolMN Silias can tank maps and has the stack to brave sword down tacomeat no-proc in Hero (This is new tech). He's completely busted.


Thanks on your replies. And you do not have to convince me, I already think that Silas is better. He he. But I have not used Jakob extensively and through different builds, and was thus unsure if he could actually be the better unit for defensive purposes. The distinction between how Silas might be better in Attack Stance and Jakob in Guard Stance was interesting.
Anyway, if both units are relatively interchangeable for the role that I need them to play, then I will simply keep on using Silas (and keep on killing Jakob in Ch 6.)

Know what? My curiosity for Kung Fu Silas has aroused again. Yes, I have used the MN + Sol build in the past, but at some point I had an epiphany and decided that all my units could only use Conquest classes (unless their name were Mozu Emveepee or they just grabbed Hoshidian skills.)
Oh, well, I guess that I will bend my nonsensical rules and try Ninja Gaiden Silas again. For the lols.

Edited by starburst
Clarity.

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28 minutes ago, Centh said:

For your Jakob to WL, I'm guessing you're using dragon talent female Corrin? Who do you S for Silas to achieve it early (or is second shop timing early to you?)?

Same thing Jakob does in rooms that aren't perfect on myroom luck.

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1 hour ago, Centh said:

As in separate runs? They can't both S Corrin with my room.

Jakob and Elise would be my guess. Or to abuse support building right after Chapter 10.

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19 minutes ago, starburst said:

Jakob and Elise would be my guess. Or to abuse support building right after Chapter 10.

Either I'm not considering something abuse or I'm missing out on some tactics treasure. If it's not castle, online, or dlc related I don't know what you mean.

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1 hour ago, Centh said:

As in separate runs? They can't both S Corrin with my room.

I'd assume so?

The idea was to compare the two with Jakobs ideal setup.

Edited by joshcja

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23 hours ago, Zoran said:

Reddit dropped Odin down to D tier.
I tried.

 

21 hours ago, joshcja said:

Oh god, CH13 Odin. This will be a treat. Wonder if he gets to 20/2?
D rank. Ahahahahahahehehe

Mozu is a known strong unit in LCQ by people who don't Drank Odin.


Odin's being a good unit is an unpopular opinion, right? Was it also unpopular back then, when Conquest was released?

Since I started using Odin because I liked him as a character, I could shut an eye to his shaky growths on my first tries. Some time later, after trial and error and reading comments about his builds, I learnt how to use Odin more effectively. And now it simply sounds extraneous to me when I read that he is ranked too low. It is like playing an entirely different game.

Honestly, the things that Odin can do early and late in the game are very particular, if not unique to him. Odin holding Nosferatu and going full The Walking Dead early in the game, and his damage output and skill set as Sorcerer late in the game are ridiculous. It is not even about Odin's being able to accomplish it, but, and perhaps more importantly, that no other unit can.


Let us watch that video by Zoran about Odin being an undead taking care of the bosses by Turn 2 in Chapter 13. It is not surprising, Odin does that every time. But which other unit can do that? A particular Corrin build perhaps? A re-classed Camilla who is not weak against bows? Certainly none of the other units available by that time. Silas or Effie or Jakob with a Javelin? They would need more turns to clean the area, simply because they would need to heal.

It is just one single example on a normal play through, not a lucky or rare accomplishment. It is systematically reproducible, not an opinion nor a theoretical exercise. I wonder whether such performances are simply 'unknown', rather than 'unpopular.' For once one sees it, how can one disdain it?


Oh!, and for me Odin is a B, maybe a high C. Yet my S and A ranks are certainly way more exclusive than those on Reddit.

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10 minutes ago, starburst said:

Odin's being a good unit is an unpopular opinion, right? Was it also unpopular back then, when Conquest was released?

I would imagine it was. But you'd need to ask someone from way back then as to that.

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I love Odin, as a character and as a unit. I rank him a B or C depending on my mood that day.

However, I rank Camilla as S. She's the only unit I place there other than Azura, Jakob and Niles. And Elise! One reason for this is her reclass option being the Dark Mage line. If Odin isn't growing properly, a Heart Seal on Camilla at base gives her stats on average with a 16/1 Sorcerer Odin and allows her to perform the same face tanking function. Also she'll still have Lunge for positioning.

Odin really wants the Samurai skills, but I can't remember if Vantage can proc with Nosferatu. Better to buy than build though; when I get back to my Iron Man run I may spend some money to find out before I bench him.

Also, I'm not sure how Camilla compares to Percy or Elise but at base she is comparable to 16/1 Beruka. Beruka will have better Defense and similar Strength but Camilla is faster. This is comparing MK Camilla at base to WL Beruka.

Edited by Johnnie

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2 hours ago, starburst said:

It is just one single example on a normal play through, not a lucky or rare accomplishment. It is systematically reproducible, not an opinion nor a theoretical exercise. I wonder whether such performances are simply 'unknown', rather than 'unpopular.' For once one sees it, how can one disdain it?

Being reproducible is one thing, but there's still the matter of how the RNG behaves for other players. Take Mozu - you worship the ground she walks on and would most likely recommend her to a new player. But what if the other guy winds up disappointed by Mozu??? 

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41 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Being reproducible is one thing, but there's still the matter of how the RNG behaves for other players. Take Mozu - you worship the ground she walks on and would most likely recommend her to a new player. But what if the other guy winds up disappointed by Mozu??? 

Nobody cares about Mozu's growths.

She has innate +30 stack and kinshi.

There was no RNG in that ch13 useage, on an average stat underleveled Odin.

----------

Johnny. CH8. The game explicitly demonstrates vantage and stack functioning with Nos.

If 16/1 Baracuda = MK Cammy then I should really plug numbers.

--------

Personally I can't see any unit without sustainable EP functionality making A or higher unless their name is Niles or Azura.

As for why a lot of CQ exclusive tricks/builds are not commonly discussed or why they're unpopular? It's because most of them completely deviate from normal FE logic or are just plain counterintuitive and sound completely batballs insane.

IE: "Play the entire game with your MU/lord under half HP and use two early est's! It's really good! Also skill and luck are the best stats and Xander should reclass to Wyvern Lord because ponys are bad!"

Edited by joshcja

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I have a level 17 Beruka and a Level 3 MK Camilla right now, both on their averages. If promoted right now Beruka would be 1 behind on Str, 5 behind on Spd and 3 ahead on Def as a WL. MK Beruka would be 3 behind on Str and 1 ahead on Def and still nowhere near the speed gap.

The fact that Vantage procs with Nos means Odin really wants 2 Heart Seals or resort to skill buying.

My level 17 Odin is 1 behind his averages on Mag and 2 behind on Spd, and he ate the Ch. 11 Dust. My level 3 Camilla if sealed to Sorcerer would be only 1 behind my screwed Odin in Mag but ahead in everything else. Of course Odin promoted right now would be well ahead in Mag but still behind on Speed and defenses. So yes, Ch. 13 Odin can be replicated by another but with the investment of an extra Heart Seal and 2 grand.

And Xander absolutely wants Wyvern, especially given his join time. 

Edited by Johnnie

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1 hour ago, Johnnie said:

I have a level 17 Beruka and a Level 3 MK Camilla right now, both on their averages. If promoted right now Beruka would be 1 behind on Str, 5 behind on Spd and 3 ahead on Def as a WL. MK Beruka would be 3 behind on Str and 1 ahead on Def and still nowhere near the speed gap.

The fact that Vantage procs with Nos means Odin really wants 2 Heart Seals or resort to skill buying.

My level 17 Odin is 1 behind his averages on Mag and 2 behind on Spd, and he ate the Ch. 11 Dust. My level 3 Camilla if sealed to Sorcerer would be only 1 behind my screwed Odin in Mag but ahead in everything else. Of course Odin promoted right now would be well ahead in Mag but still behind on Speed and defenses. So yes, Ch. 13 Odin can be replicated by another but with the investment of an extra Heart Seal and 2 grand.

And Xander absolutely wants Wyvern, especially given his join time. 

Eh. With her personal active Baracuda is ahead on all relevant stats in that example. (I see a 20/3 Camilia, we can stack +17 speed here)

It's between 2 and ohgodwhy seals, same as any other unit in the game.

So. The logic here is... if Odin is extremely stat screwed and is far enough behind his curve to be the same level as our xl17 beruka we can warp back in time to ch13 and heart seal Camilia into Sorc? Are we also running Samurai MU with no early Marrige to replicate his skill set while robbing Odin's paralouge unique items from rewards? We can assume that I guess? We can also assume that our 20/3 Camilia can somehow gain enough levels quickly enough to grab heartseeker and MAura?

We can assume all that and in that extremely biased borderline unpossible edge case Camilia isn't named Ophelia.

Edited by joshcja

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15 hours ago, joshcja said:

Back in early fates the words "just dust Camilia and she'll be better than Odin" were used.

 

12 hours ago, joshcja said:

As for why a lot of CQ exclusive tricks/builds are not commonly discussed or why they're unpopular? It's because most of them completely deviate from normal FE logic or are just plain counterintuitive and sound completely batballs insane.


Yeah, that can still be read these days. I find amusing that such 'different', 'colourful' tricks and builds are barely discussed on a specific forum like this (maybe I crashed the party too late and they were indeed discussed back when this game had more attention, but the search function says otherwise.) Reddit has a broader target audience, and I can understand if many users there only played the game casually (no pun intended), but a lot of digging is certainly required to find a refreshing trick. Rather odd for Conquest, a game mostly (even exclusively) praised for its gameplay.

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Imo it's the difference between playing by numbers and playing by tradition/assumption/I like it when the stats grow. The numbers pan out for all the strats people don't want to try because "paladin is good" or "I like x". E.G. "unit x held this point really well while I turtled oh boy chapter 10/17 are impossible". This is compared to "Silas is over xp curve, taking near zero damage, killing everything on EP, and shooting off into late game as a near unkillable monster". I think Est/villager units are a great litmus test. They're nearly always bad but growth rates are blown out of proportion by a seemingly large group of players, when base stats are arguably much more important. This is where prepromote aversion comes from, which is hopefully close to death after people play Fates. I'm hungry and this post sounds salty....

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On 15/01/2019 at 8:08 AM, Zoran said:

Reddit dropped Odin down to D tier.

 

I tried.

Are you in the Discord? A lot of active posters in there so it may be easier to sway opinions. Or not; I know people can be stubborn with opinions. I know I am.

 

 

Haven’t posted in a while as I was hoping to have a quick play through to get some practical experience with some of the more contentious units. Unfortunately I’ve been a little busy and haven’t found much time to play.

 

So I’ll just post the finished Reddit list.

S: Corrin, Jakob 1, Azura, Camilla, Xander

A: Niles, Kaze, Leo

B: Felicia 1, Silas, Elise, Effie, Beruka, Gunter

C: Arthur, Nyx, Selena, Peri, Keaton, Shura, Flora

D: Odin, Laslow, Benny, Charlotte, Felicia 2, Jakob 2, Izana

E: Mozu

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Lol, there's a reason I've stopped going to Reddit for anything. All the normies are on it now :/ The Artifact subreddit is actually disgusting.

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4 hours ago, Centh said:

The numbers I think Est/villager units are a great litmus test. They're nearly always bad but growth rates are blown out of proportion by a seemingly large group of players, when base stats are arguably much more important. This is where prepromote aversion comes from, which is hopefully close to death after people play Fates. I'm hungry and this post sounds salty....

What’s funny is that Fates makes almost all its prepromotes great, but also makes trainee units way less of a burden. Bronze forges are genuinely great throughout the game (E rank hell basically isn’t a thing with +2 forges), and Attack Stance lets weaklings steal kills and catch up without much special attention.

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6 hours ago, Centh said:

Imo it's the difference between playing by numbers and playing by tradition/assumption/I like it when the stats grow. The numbers pan out for all the strats people don't want to try because "paladin is good" or "I like x". E.G. "unit x held this point really well while I turtled oh boy chapter 10/17 are impossible". This is compared to "Silas is over xp curve, taking near zero damage, killing everything on EP, and shooting off into late game as a near unkillable monster". I think Est/villager units are a great litmus test. They're nearly always bad but growth rates are blown out of proportion by a seemingly large group of players, when base stats are arguably much more important. This is where prepromote aversion comes from, which is hopefully close to death after people play Fates. I'm hungry and this post sounds salty....

Bold: That's why I called attention to your point about Mozu - I find it kinda hard to consider her worth the boatloads of investment she needs just to function when her base stats suck and bases are far and away more important than growths. The fact that you cannot grind in Conquest short of DLC doesn't help her case. Anyway, the only villagers that feel like they're actually worth my time are those in SoV (of course, said game plays by its own rules, so I cannot really use that as a metric).

5 hours ago, Dean said:

I was hoping to have a quick play through to get some practical experience with some of the more contentious units. Unfortunately I’ve been a little busy and haven’t found much time to play.

Who were you hoping to test in particular?

1 hour ago, Zoran said:

What’s funny is that Fates makes almost all its prepromotes great, but also makes trainee units way less of a burden. Bronze forges are genuinely great throughout the game (E rank hell basically isn’t a thing with +2 forges), and Attack Stance lets weaklings steal kills and catch up without much special attention.

I suppose you have a point about attack stance, but I find forge arguments to not exactly be good ones - can I really consider an argument revolving around a feature that can only be applied regularly to ONE weapon type out of six legitimate??? I think not.

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