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Conquest tiering discussion

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You do realize some of us aren't against using the online features for forges, right? Or we don't have the time to blitz through half the game in one session.

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1 hour ago, Johnnie said:

You do realize some of us aren't against using the online features for forges, right? Or we don't have the time to blitz through half the game in one session.

Who stops at half the game?

Levant clearly lacks internet access for forges.

-----------

Figure I'll drop the standard Mozu invest rant.

Mozu needs a heart seal before ch10. She orko's pegs with a tonic and either a +2 bronze or attack stance at level one in that map. Quick draw is up and running in ch11 at minimal invest.

Only Mozu, Elise, and Dwyer "need" pre second shop seals for combat viability. Every other unit has alternate seal strats. While heart seals can boost some of these units spreading quick draw and kinshi around your army is high value.

A minimum invest of 2 seals + light forge is the standard in LCQ.

Edited by joshcja

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2 hours ago, Johnnie said:

You do realize some of us aren't against using the online features for forges, right? Or we don't have the time to blitz through half the game in one session.

Because online is always gonna be available, right? Oh wait...

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On 1/14/2019 at 4:08 PM, Zoran said:

Reddit dropped Odin down to D tier.

I think thats fair tbh. (at least if the parameters you're using exclude immediate reclassing to darkflier or dreadfighter or some DLC class)

Its not that Odin doens't have potential. His base stats and early game are just so bad. And for the amount of investment it takes to get him up-and-running: hes not going to turn out amazingly better than units that join with solid bases and don't require extensive babying before they turn into "good units." 

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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30 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

I have online available 24/7, but I want to ignore using it for challenge’s sake.

@Shadow Mir We are two kinds of people in this, Levant.

And therein lies the problem; how are we supposed to treat something that may not even be an option (and needless to say, isn't always one)? Discard all sense of reality just for the sake of making forges legitimate??? Also, there's the time factor; if you're willing to ignore that, you might as well be okay with factoring in Anna shops in Awakening (considering they were more likely to show up if you hadn't played the game for a long time).

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20 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And therein lies the problem; how are we supposed to treat something that may not even be an option (and needless to say, isn't always one)? Discard all sense of reality just for the sake of making forges legitimate??? Also, there's the time factor; if you're willing to ignore that, you might as well be okay with factoring in Anna shops in Awakening (considering they were more likely to show up if you hadn't played the game for a long time).

It is still a choice. I do not have much experience in high level Fire Emblem play, though. But I will say that the most challenging scenario that is normal (as in, no solos or anything else of that ilk) is where it will be seen how viable some options are.

Even without online, though, you can still trade minerals you get for some others, should you need it. I think that was already mentioned before. Rerolling for the best possible combination of minerals and food (best food is milk for Spd, I am sure) is also an option.

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57 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I think thats fair tbh. (at least if the parameters you're using exclude immediate reclassing to darkflier or dreadfighter or some DLC class)

Its not that Odin doens't have potential. His base stats and early game are just so bad. And for the amount of investment it takes to get him up-and-running: hes not going to turn out amazingly better than units that join with solid bases and don't require extensive babying before they turn into "good units." 

 

Proven to be utterly false by videos previously posted. Odin takes near no investment besides nos tome. Clinging to these arguments, which are demonstrated to be MASSIVELY false, is reaching a level I can't comprehend.

 

I can't tell if some of the users on this forum are really really bad and sad trolls or actually this dense. Step 1: Have online available. Step 2: visit castles for 8min. Step 3: You're done with resource gathering for that play file. Step 4: Double check you have the planning skills to accomplish this daring feat of intellectual prowess. Step 5: Confirm to yourself this isn't a hoax and this really was THIS FUCKING EASY. Step 6: Play the game without online. Phew, what a rough ride. I had to rub 3 brain cells together.

 

Can't have a fun discussion without the brain drain gang showing up. inb4 the reports etc. I don't care anymore. This is too stupid to just let slide. Get some fucking help.

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59 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I think thats fair tbh. (at least if the parameters you're using exclude immediate reclassing to darkflier or dreadfighter or some DLC class)

Its not that Odin doens't have potential. His base stats and early game are just so bad. And for the amount of investment it takes to get him up-and-running: hes not going to turn out amazingly better than units that join with solid bases and don't require extensive babying before they turn into "good units." 

Did you watch any of the videos I posted? Odin is great in the early game. “Babying” him consists of doing a few attack stance setups in his join chapter in 4-6 turns and then buying the Nosferatu tome when you have 10,000 G and not much else to spend it on. That alone is good enough to get him off the ground. He’s got tons of opportunities to get more levels in the early chapters, performs as well as Jakob 1 on Chapter 10, and then past that point is the second-strongest enemy phase unit you’re likely to have after Camilla. This is before he can do any of his reclass shenanigans to break the middle and late game.

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43 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

It is still a choice. I do not have much experience in high level Fire Emblem play, though. But I will say that the most challenging scenario that is normal (as in, no solos or anything else of that ilk) is where it will be seen how viable some options are.

Even without online, though, you can still trade minerals you get for some others, should you need it. I think that was already mentioned before. Rerolling for the best possible combination of minerals and food (best food is milk for Spd, I am sure) is also an option.

Ignore Levant he's always fishing for derails

ILY Centh. Don't make it weird >_>

-------------

Bear man thinks Keaton is a great EP tank because stats. I'd assume he's not too big into optimizing. (Not shaming. Enjoy what you like dude)

Edited by joshcja

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46 minutes ago, Centh said:

I can't tell if some of the users on this forum are really really bad and sad trolls or actually this dense. Step 1: Have online available. Step 2: visit castles for 8min. Step 3: You're done with resource gathering for that play file. Step 4: Double check you have the planning skills to accomplish this daring feat of intellectual prowess. Step 5: Confirm to yourself this isn't a hoax and this really was THIS FUCKING EASY. Step 6: Play the game without online. Phew, what a rough ride. I had to rub 3 brain cells together.

Well, I can deal with that compromise. Thanks.

E.L.E.: Everybody love everybody.

Now, with these rules, what shall we consider some these units?

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On 15/1/2019 at 10:39 PM, joshcja said:

Nobody cares about Mozu's growths.

She has innate +30 stack and kinshi.

 

21 hours ago, Centh said:

I think Est/villager units are a great litmus test. They're nearly always bad but growth rates are blown out of proportion by a seemingly large group of players, when base stats are arguably much more important. This is where prepromote aversion comes from, which is hopefully close to death after people play Fates.

 

16 hours ago, Zoran said:

What’s funny is that Fates makes almost all its prepromotes great, but also makes trainee units way less of a burden. Bronze forges are genuinely great throughout the game (E rank hell basically isn’t a thing with +2 forges), and Attack Stance lets weaklings steal kills and catch up without much special attention.

 

 

About Mozu, well, I started using her as an Archer because I found bows useful but did not really like Nile's character. After using Archer Mozu across various campaigns I noticed that she constantly delivered. So, choosing her was a purely subjective decision, but using her was entirely based on results. Back then, I knew nothing about growths- or averages tables; I wanted bows, and she was effective. That is it.

As joshcja says, Mozu's numbers does not matter that much, given her niche and the skills in her class-tree. The thing is that her numbers are not bad either.
Let us see, by Chapter 16, Sniper Mozu L1 has, on average, the same Str than L4 MK Camilla and -3 Str than L4 Pal Xander. By the end of Ch 18, Sniper Mozu should be around L5, while Pal Xander and WL Camilla should be L5-6 (unless you are really bad at Ch 17 and had to let the siblings eat all the Experience.) Well, from that point and until the end of the game, at similar levels, Sniper Mozu has between -2 and +1 Strength compared to Pal Xander or WL Camilla (iron bows and axes have the same might, and a +1 forge of any of them hits as hard as Sigfried.) Sniper Mozu will also have anything from +6 to +10 more Skill, and anything from +6 to +12 more Speed over both siblings, at any given point.
Different skills come into play, but Sniper Mozu has +4 attack and +40 % Hit on Player Phase, and an extra +5 attack late in the game, which is comparable to or higher than what Elbow Room plus Defender give Xander, and comparable to or higher than what Str +2 plus Trample give Camilla.

Of course Xander and Camilla are way better units than Mozu, there is no discussion there. Never was. But they play entirely different roles. The actual question is: Would you invest a Heart Seal and 30 Turns (in their own map) on a Player Phase unit that has the same attack power as Pal Xander and WL Camilla from mid-game onwards, and WTA over Shurikens and Lances, and +40 % Hit, and 34 Speed capped around L20/10, and 36 Skill capped around L20/12, and... ?

Leaving numbers aside, my experience tells me that: a Sniper never misses a hit; a Sniper crits at every thing, even when you do not want to; bows and tomes are the best Player Phase weapons; Aptitude and high Skill create monstrous Sophie's, Velouria's and Nina's, all who also crit like crazy; Effie in particular, but all physical men also benefit from Archer or Sniper skills... Oh! And I also find it cute to watch a midget critting at every boss.
Now this is subjective.


What rank is Mozu? It does not matter. She is E by design and will remain E if she is not levelled-up in her own chapter.
Yeah, those turn counts kill any LTC campaign; one can at least rest assured that if the investment is done, she pays every time. This I know.

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6 hours ago, Johnnie said:

You do realize some of us aren't against using the online features for forges, right? Or we don't have the time to blitz through half the game in one session.

 

4 hours ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

I have online available 24/7, but I want to ignore using it for challenge’s sake.


I am all in favour for the random items at the same time that I do never use online. I feel it is cheating. But that is just me.

What is the problem in not getting the desired ore? As random as it may be, any ore can be traded and one gets infinite number of them through the Arena. One is not supposed to forge at Chapter 7. It is not required at all. Sometimes one is lucky and gets their desired ore, some others one has to wait a couple of maps to do so. It is not complicate, really. Never have I finished Conquest not being able to forge everything that I wanted to (granted, I stop at +2.)

Same goes for the Lottery or the Mess Hall. Why would one complain about something that is given to them for free? If someone gives you anything from 1 € to 1.000 € every day just because, why would you complain when you are not given the amount you want? That is just silly, and not only in terms of this game. It contradicts the basic premise which every fucking economic law is based upon.

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2 hours ago, Zoran said:

Did you watch any of the videos I posted? Odin is great in the early game. “Babying” him consists of doing a few attack stance setups in his join chapter in 4-6 turns and then buying the Nosferatu tome when you have 10,000 G and not much else to spend it on. That alone is good enough to get him off the ground. He’s got tons of opportunities to get more levels in the early chapters, performs as well as Jakob 1 on Chapter 10, and then past that point is the second-strongest enemy phase unit you’re likely to have after Camilla. This is before he can do any of his reclass shenanigans to break the middle and late game.

Yes--I watched the videos you posted.

You can level Odin up a few times the chapter he joins if you dedicate your entire chapter strategy to supporting him + feeding him kills, then use castle visits to harvest materials for the forge and give him a custom weapon to get him up to snuff for chapter 10.

You can level Mozu up a few times the chapter she joins if you dedicate your entire chapter strategy to supporting her + feeding her kills, then use castle visits to harvest materials for hte forge and give her a custom weapon to get her up to snuff for chapter 10. 

Hes not unsalvagable, but hes not better than any higher tier unit given comparable amounts of favoritism. 

    

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7 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yes--I watched the videos you posted.

You can level Odin up a few times the chapter he joins if you dedicate your entire chapter strategy to supporting him + feeding him kills, then use castle visits to harvest materials for the forge and give him a custom weapon to get him up to snuff for chapter 10.

You can level Mozu up a few times the chapter she joins if you dedicate your entire chapter strategy to supporting her + feeding her kills, then use castle visits to harvest materials for hte forge and give her a custom weapon to get her up to snuff for chapter 10. 

Hes not unsalvagable, but hes not better than any higher tier unit given comparable amounts of favoritism. 

    

I needed a laugh.

Thanks

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1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yes--I watched the videos you posted.

You can level Odin up a few times the chapter he joins if you dedicate your entire chapter strategy to supporting him + feeding him kills, then use castle visits to harvest materials for the forge and give him a custom weapon to get him up to snuff for chapter 10.

You can level Mozu up a few times the chapter she joins if you dedicate your entire chapter strategy to supporting her + feeding her kills, then use castle visits to harvest materials for hte forge and give her a custom weapon to get her up to snuff for chapter 10. 

Hes not unsalvagable, but hes not better than any higher tier unit given comparable amounts of favoritism. 

Oh, I love this game!

You can make Jakob 1 do what Silas does in chapters 7-9 if you pick female Corrin, dedicate your entire early game strategy to supporting him and feeding him kills, and spend the game's very first Heart Seal on him. But he's top tier because of the way you can spend three of the eleven total early seals on him to do everything that Silas and then Camilla do for free.

Obviously I'm being disingenuous to make a point. The nature of the game is that any early unit is going to take a certain amount of investment to get going. Odin is not a significant burden in this respect. He's good enough at base to still pull down 2-3 levels quickly across two chapters without especially good matchups for him. The early game is even kind enough to give three free EXP bonanzas in a row with paralogue 1, invasion 1, and chapter 10; that’s a big reason why early units are much better than the ones that join in chapter 12 and 13.

Odin doesn't take a forged weapon. If you're complaining that he gets Nosferatu, what else are you going to buy with that money? You get 13,000 G before chapter 10 (plus up to 2,000 from Goddess Icon sales) and the only things worth buying are 1-2 seals, tonics, a Javelin, maybe a second Javelin or Hand Axe, and 4-7 bronze weapons for early forges. 

Under the rules of the tier list this thread was made to discuss, all castle resources are completely free.

Edited by Zoran

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I guess I'll go back and do another playthrough where I try using base class odin on lunatic.

I remember not being impressed at all with his performance even after giving him the nosferatu, but I may be underselling him.  

And I may have also been spoiled after just coming off of Awakening + comparing his performance as a nosferatu tank to the nonsense you could do back in that game. (I know--not a fair comparison) 
_________

His speed stat in particular I remember being a major issue, but its possible I just had a brutally speed-screwed Odin on one or two early playthroughs and let that sour my opinion of him.

I'll reassess. 

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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You should not expect Odin to double anyone without serious support. It’s just not what he does. He uses Nosferatu early and stacks damage for one-shot kills late. Speed support will not help him at either of these jobs.

Edited by Zoran

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13 minutes ago, Zoran said:

You should not expect Odin to double anyone without serious support. It’s just not what he does. He uses Nosferatu early and stacks damage for one-shot kills late. Speed support will not help him at either of these jobs.

I would say you're selling his speed issue short - if his speed winds up being low to the point he's getting doubled, what then? We ARE talking about the most important stat in the game, after all...

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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say you're selling his speed issue short - if his speed winds up being low to the point he's getting doubled, what then? We ARE talking about the most important stat in the game, after all...

So, I guess Odin needs speed to not get doubled by any of his targets on a given chapter. How much of a problem is that on Lunatic?

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14 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say you're selling his speed issue short - if his speed winds up being low to the point he's getting doubled, what then? We ARE talking about the most important stat in the game, after all...

His speed base is kinda low, but it's not abysmal, and his speed growth is fine. It won’t ever be enough to make him fast, but it’s extremely unlikely that he misses so many speed growths that he gets doubled by generic enemies. Even the chapter 17 Master Ninjas don’t double 20/1 Odin on average. (That’s one of the few cases before Life and Death comes online where he might be cutting it pretty close on his averages, but he can attack stance them to death with the Calamity Gate anyway.)

Edited by Zoran

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18 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

So, I guess Odin needs speed to not get doubled by any of his targets on a given chapter. How much of a problem is that on Lunatic?

It's not. 20/1 Odin at ch17 is a very low level Odin.

Lightning is Crank so he "doubles" fine past ch13 on player phase.

---------

If I'm using Ophy/Other not Odin mage I'll generally just let em gate "the map" on 17 while Odin consumes mechanists and puppets and Elise "the bolt axe" Wyvernface does her thing.

Edited by joshcja

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11 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I guess I'll go back and do another playthrough where I try using base class odin on lunatic.
I remember not being impressed at all with his performance even after giving him the nosferatu, but I may be underselling him.


Hey, Shoblongoo, I do not think that I can add anything to what has already expressed and shown about Odin. But I also think that the theory and the numbers do no matter if they contradict your own experience. Even if Odin worked the way I, we say, it might still not be what your party needs.
Instead, I would like to focus on your approach to make the party more efficient.

At the end of Chapter 7, Corrin is L11, Silas is L7-8 and Effie is L8-9. We can agree in that, at that point, they (plus Jakob, if you use him) are the key units in your party, right?
From your messages, I get that you would prefer to make these key units even more powerful in the following chapters, so that the maps are completed easier and faster. It is your approach to optimise Experience spread and resources.

In my case, however, those key units are already powerful enough to complete Ch 8-9, Invasion 1, Mozu's Paralogue and probably Ch 10, even if they did not get a single level. Thus I give Experience points to the non-key units to have a larger 'powerful enough' party.
Here lies, I believe, the difference in our approach.

In the first approach, using tonics, turns, weapons, formations, Exp points and any other resources on under-levelled units is constantly challenged, inefficient. In the second approach, using resources on already powerful enough units is redundant, inefficient.
The distinction is simple, and yet it defines one's attitude towards every decision.

This is, for example, the reason why Zoran wonders how come you would not purchase a Nosferatu when you have over 10.000 G and nothing else in particular to buy. Or why I wonder how come you could not feed kills to under-levelled units, when the key units do not need those Exp points at all to complete the map(s). It is not the particular expense, but the general approach what makes you and us react differently. Do you not think so?

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So I keep hearing about MN Silas with Sol but I've never tried it. When do you seal him to Merc/Hero? Immediately after promotion? As soon as he hits level 10?

Also a 2-level dip into Archer is always useful, but what else is a good marriage class? 

Also I've rarely had a useful Sophie outside of Silas/Effie.

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5 hours ago, Zoran said:

You should not expect Odin to double anyone without serious support. It’s just not what he does. He uses Nosferatu early and stacks damage for one-shot kills late. Speed support will not help him at either of these jobs.

How exactly did you properly set him up for mid-late game? I originally had an ok Odin performance on my first Lunatic run but he drops off during Hoshido map rush since i stopped putting attention to him(and i memed with Leo >_>) . ATM he kinda struggles in Fuga.map

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