May I ask why some Fire Emblem fans act like Awakening and Fates were the worst thing to happen to the series?

[Etrurian emperor]

9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

PoR's Begnion arc however did have a point by this measure- getting Begnion on Elincia's side so she stood a realistic chance of defeating Daein. Thus, I think it is safe to call Anri's Way filler.

There's that but I also think the Begnion arc was meant to set the stage for Radiant Dawn. A lot of things briefly mentioned in this filler comes back to haunt Tellius a few years later. We see the corruption in Begnion, the divide between the Apostle and the Senate and we are introduced to the Serenes massacre which will be the trigger for the new world war. We even get to see Lekain.

So all the pieces are set for the sequel. We know that even after Ashnard is defeated Begnion is a likely country to start acting villainous and we can safely assume the senate will be the reason for that. Because its so well developed in POR Begnion works really nicely as a villainous nation in RD.

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Or RD's Part 2 is a filler. 

I listed it, you might not have noticed it between PoR and Binding. It is definitely one of the most fillery filler arcs, despite the good writing. Binding's Western Isles is more connected one could say to the main plot, via the corrupt Etrurian nobles, even if it isn't as pretty as Part 2.

 

3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

There's that but I also think the Begnion arc was meant to set the stage for Radiant Dawn. A lot of things briefly mentioned in this filler comes back to haunt Tellius a few years later. We see the corruption in Begnion, the divide between the Apostle and the Senate and we are introduced to the Serenes massacre which will be the trigger for the new world war. We even get to see Lekain.

So all the pieces are set for the sequel. We know that even after Ashnard is defeated Begnion is a likely country to start acting villainous and we can safely assume the senate will be the reason for that. Because its so well developed in POR Begnion works really nicely as a villainous nation in RD.

Definitely have to appreciate how they wrote PoR with RD's core aspects probably fairly well-formulated already, so they could foreshadow those things. Not everything aligned right, I think Sephiran's last words in PoR were off the mark when you look at RD, but it was clever and effective planning.

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

There's that but I also think the Begnion arc was meant to set the stage for Radiant Dawn. A lot of things briefly mentioned in this filler comes back to haunt Tellius a few years later. We see the corruption in Begnion, the divide between the Apostle and the Senate and we are introduced to the Serenes massacre which will be the trigger for the new world war. We even get to see Lekain.

So all the pieces are set for the sequel. We know that even after Ashnard is defeated Begnion is a likely country to start acting villainous and we can safely assume the senate will be the reason for that. Because its so well developed in POR Begnion works really nicely as a villainous nation in RD.

 

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Definitely have to appreciate how they wrote PoR with RD's core aspects probably fairly well-formulated already, so they could foreshadow those things. Not everything aligned right, I think Sephiran's last words in PoR were off the mark when you look at RD, but it was clever and effective planning.

A lot of things in PoR was set up for the sequel. But for a moment, imagine if you crammed PoR and RD together in one game. Can you say that it's not going to get messy in the system?

[Ottservia]

Honestly my main issue with the valm arc is how hastily and nonchalantly it tries to tie itself into the main plot. I mean you kill walhart then Say’ri is all like “here’s the gemstone ok bye” like seriously the transition between the second and third arch always bothered me. Honestly what would’ve been a better way to handle things at least imo is by having a scout or something come in and say plegia that plegia is being plegia again and taking control of the continent while the leaders of the other two major powers are away. I mean it’s not great but it’s better than what we got

[Jotari]

I think the Valm arc would have made a fantastic sequel to Awakening. Pepper in indications of the conflict throughout Awakening with Virion and Cherche and even have Gangrel or Validar or someone mention it once or twice. Then let us explore it fully in a sequel. They could have even made Say'ri be the new protagonist with Chrom and Robin only appearing towards the end of the game bringing the vital reinforcements needed to tip the scales of the conflict.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Otts486 said:

Honestly my main issue with the valm arc is how hastily and nonchalantly it tries to tie itself into the main plot. I mean you kill walhart then Say’ri is all like “here’s the gemstone ok bye” like seriously the transition between the second and third arch always bothered me. Honestly what would’ve been a better way to handle things at least imo is by having a scout or something come in and say plegia that plegia is being plegia again and taking control of the continent while the leaders of the other two major powers are away. I mean it’s not great but it’s better than what we got

Or they could bring up Vert a little more. And have Walhart say (in the spirit of) "Listen, there is something out there more threatening than you boy (Chrom)! And only I have the strength and the will to fight it. If the Gems can help, I'll take them. But even without them, I WILL conquer all." (Since the Fire Emblem and Falchion are Naga's, Walhart probably hates Naga, and I don't see him necessarily craving them. Plus he is so arrogant he'd probably think himself able to slay Grima without them.) Thus, there is a little "who is worthy of fighting Grima" spin on the Valm arc. Sounds a little stupid for heroes with a common enemy to fight each other over who gets to fight somebody else, but eh, I sorta liked Super Robot Wars: Original Generation when I was younger.

They did try to keep the Gemstones focus up with Lucina, Tiki handing over Azure, and Basilio giving Gules. Although I felt the Gemstones, and the Fire Emblem itself, are little too downplayed in terms of their power, making them boring and bland Macguffins. I like the Gemstones/Orbs/Spheres, and I know they're really really strong, but it isn't felt here. They do nothing by themselves, and together, all they do is turn Chrom's infinite Iron Wyrmslayer into a 45 Mt anti-Grima boomstick. Is Vert swallowing a legion of fine soldiers or Argent reviving someone important on the cusp of death too much to ask for?

 

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think the Valm arc would have made a fantastic sequel to Awakening. Pepper in indications of the conflict throughout Awakening with Virion and Cherche and even have Gangrel or Validar or someone mention it once or twice. Then let us explore it fully in a sequel. They could have even made Say'ri be the new protagonist with Chrom and Robin only appearing towards the end of the game bringing the vital reinforcements needed to tip the scales of the conflict.

That too would be excellent. But alas, Awakening was made with the premise FE could die afterwards, they hadn't the luck to set any stage for a sequel. Maybe if the series was in a healthier place, they could've done that, but the essence of Awakening, for good and for bad, is that of a last hurrah for the franchise. 

And it reminds me of Suikoden II a bit. Not a big fan of them game, I fell for the hype on this "classic" and it hurt. It features a number of returning characters from the first game, some in minor roles, some in major ones, and is set in a neighboring land to the first. And towards the end of the game, the heroes choose to visit Gregminster- the imperial-now-republican capital of the first game, and negotiate for some troops. It was ultimately a minor thing in the plot, but it did happen. FE could do it, but better.

 

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

A lot of things in PoR was set up for the sequel. But for a moment, imagine if you crammed PoR and RD together in one game. Can you say that it's not going to get messy in the system?

So we get a 66 chapter game? Sounds a little too long for my tastes. ?

Or we try to fit things into a 31 chapter format. So we start with the Prologue, Elincia shows up in C1, Greil dies in the next, then we run from the BK, kill Oliver afterwards, and take Nevassa in the following chapter. The Black Knight is fought, and lastly Ashnard dies in Chapter 7. Shame I'm not a comedic writer, Tellius- The Abridged Edition sounds like it could be funny.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Or they could bring up Vert a little more. And have Walhart say (in the spirit of) "Listen, there is something out there more threatening than you boy (Chrom)! And only I have the strength and the will to fight it. If the Gems can help, I'll take them. But even without them, I WILL conquer all." (Since the Fire Emblem and Falchion are Naga's, Walhart probably hates Naga, and I don't see him necessarily craving them. Plus he is so arrogant he'd probably think himself able to slay Grima without them.) Thus, there is a little "who is worthy of fighting Grima" spin on the Valm arc. Sounds a little stupid for heroes with a common enemy to fight each other over who gets to fight somebody else, but eh, I sorta liked Super Robot Wars: Original Generation when I was younger.

They did try to keep the Gemstones focus up with Lucina, Tiki handing over Azure, and Basilio giving Gules. Although I felt the Gemstones, and the Fire Emblem itself, are little too downplayed in terms of their power, making them boring and bland Macguffins. I like the Gemstones/Orbs/Spheres, and I know they're really really strong, but it isn't felt here. They do nothing by themselves, and together, all they do is turn Chrom's infinite Iron Wyrmslayer into a 45 Mt anti-Grima boomstick. Is Vert swallowing a legion of fine soldiers or Argent reviving someone important on the cusp of death too much to ask for?

Or better yet, have Whalhart wield Alm's Falchion and be a rival of Chrom's for the role of God slayer. In a game filled to the brim with wasted potential, not giving Whalhart his own Falchion (which would have been trivially easy to do) was the biggest misstep.

[ArgentSable]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Or better yet, have Whalhart wield Alm's Falchion and be a rival of Chrom's for the role of God slayer. In a game filled to the brim with wasted potential, not giving Whalhart his own Falchion (which would have been trivially easy to do) was the biggest misstep.

I don't really think Falchion (Alm's) would have made it so far in time. Marth's Falchion didn't make it to Awakening, it's an entirely different Falchion made from Nagi's fang (Naga's reincarnated body from FE3), so they adressed that early on. Another good example of why legendary weapons won't last long, is to look at Ragnell (Priam) which is covered in cracks and has lost all of it's unique properties, including the goddess' blessing. The same thing is shown for Valflame, the Book of Naga, Mysteltainn, etc. Legendary weapons loose their blessing over time, so it wouldn't make sense for Walhart at all.

 

And truth being told, Awakening's "wasted potential" mostly comes up for Walhart's Arc. I honestly think it was the lack of missions and story that expanded on how or why Walhart did what he did. Or, better yet, they could have slowly let us know that he was against the Grimleal through a multitude of obvious or non-obvious ways, that would have made us feel the tension as we had to kill Walhart, knowing that our choice was a total mistake, and yet the soldiers ingame believed that they were in the right (same theme in pretty much every FE game where the bad guy should have some redeeming quality)

Edited January 7, 2019 by ArgentSable
Lacking in Info

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

I don't really think Falchion (Alm's) would have made it so far in time. Marth's Falchion didn't make it to Awakening, it's an entirely different Falchion made from Nagi's fang (Naga's reincarnated body from FE3), so they adressed that early on. Another good example of why legendary weapons won't last long, is to look at Ragnell (Priam) which is covered in cracks and has lost all of it's unique properties, including the goddess' blessing. The same thing is shown for Valflame, the Book of Naga, Mysteltainn, etc. Legendary weapons loose their blessing over time, so it wouldn't make sense for Walhart at all.

 

And truth being told, Awakening's "wasted potential" mostly comes up for Walhart's Arc. I honestly think it was the lack of missions and story that expanded on how or why Walhart did what he did. Or, better yet, they could have slowly let us know that he was against the Grimleal through a multitude of obvious or non-obvious ways, that would have made us feel the tension as we had to kill Walhart, knowing that our choice was a total mistake, and yet the soldiers ingame believed that they were in the right (same theme in pretty much every FE game where the bad guy should have some redeeming quality)

That's just your head canon though. Lucina and Owain's support conversation confirms that no matter how much time will pass Falcion's blade will never dull, it's only the man made parts of it that need to be replaced.

[ArgentSable]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's just your head canon though. Lucina and Owain's support conversation confirms that no matter how much time will pass Falcion's blade will never dull, it's only the man made parts of it that need to be replaced.

It's not headcannon. Valflame lost it's blood requirement (IE the blessing) and the power dwindled. The same can be said for Ragnell that doesn't send it's shockwaves forth. And I'm pretty sure this isn't Marth's Falchion, somebody who know scan probably correct me further (in actual detail not just saying I'm wrong). There's a bunch of other legendary weapons that have dulled in power and their blessings. If this was headcannon, then you couldn't use any of Genealogy's weapons in Awakening, so I fail to see how I'm just using headcannon here. Unless you have some otherworldly level of evidence to counter my own, in which case, I'd be wrong.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

It's not headcannon. Valflame lost it's blood requirement (IE the blessing) and the power dwindled. The same can be said for Ragnell that doesn't send it's shockwaves forth. And I'm pretty sure this isn't Marth's Falchion, somebody who know scan probably correct me further (in actual detail not just saying I'm wrong). There's a bunch of other legendary weapons that have dulled in power and their blessings. If this was headcannon, then you couldn't use any of Genealogy's weapons in Awakening, so I fail to see how I'm just using headcannon here. Unless you have some otherworldly level of evidence to counter my own, in which case, I'd be wrong.

Lucina and Owains support conversation where they literally say Falchion's blade will never dull over time no matter how many millennia pass and the fact that Nagi is never once mentioned in the game (or any piece of media outside of the DS games and probably Cipher afaik).

Edited January 7, 2019 by Jotari

[ArgentSable]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Lucina and Owains support conversation where they literally say Falchion's blade will never dull over time no matter how many millennia pass and the fact that Nagi is never once mentioned in the game.

Nagi not being mentioned isn't evidence against it, hell it speaks to how much you may or may not know of New Mystery. Tiki, in New Mystery, when she "dies" (an optional requirement for one of the games endings) is said to go to sleep, a slumber like death (the wording may be different) and Nagi awakens. Nagi in New Mystery has a conversation with either Medeus where he says that the presence reminds him of Naga (the same way that he was reborn in a new body) This would make sense for Naga to be reborn since, FYI, she's dead as a doorknob in New Mystery. Otherwise, without Nagi (who looks a lot like Naga in Awakening) Naga wouldn't be alive in Awakening, literally the rite of Awakening wouldn't be a possibility because she's dead.

Edited January 7, 2019 by ArgentSable

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

Nagi not being mentioned isn't evidence against it, hell it speaks to how much you may or may not know of New Mystery. Tiki, in New Mystery, when she "dies" is said to go to sleep, a slumber like death (the wording may be different) and Nagi awakens. Nagi in New Mystery has a conversation with either Medeus where he says that the presence reminds him of Naga (the same way that he was reborn in a new body) This would make sense for Naga to be reborn since, FYI, she's dead as a doorknob in New Mystery. Otherwise, without Nagi (who looks a lot like Naga in Awakening) Naga wouldn't be alive in Awakening, literally the rite of Awakening wouldn't be a possibility because she's dead.

I'm not saying it's evidence against it being possible, I'm saying it's evidence that it is headcanon. If the game never says the First Exalt's Falchion was made from the fang of Nagi, then saying it was is headcanon. Sure, maybe that's possible. But it's not something suggested by the text in game. What the in game text does say though is that Falchion will never dull with age.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

This is an interesting conversation. Regarding the Falchion...

Quote

Owain:
But where fang meets sinew, Falchion remains a mortal work. Even genius cannot hope to stop the turning of the great wheel! And so it is reborn with each generation; transformed, but ever the same in spirit.

Lucina:
Hmm... But parts of the sword other than the blade DO wear out over time. The guard and pommel have been replaced over the years, changing its appearance. But it remains Falchion still.

I think this makes it clear that it's the same Falchion. The blade at least, is the same.

By the way, Falchion really was loosing its power. Naga simply repowered it during the time of the First Exalt.

[ArgentSable]

28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not saying it's evidence against it being possible, I'm saying it's evidence that it is headcanon. If the game never says the First Exalt's Falchion was made from the fang of Nagi, then saying it was is headcanon. Sure, maybe that's possible. But it's not something suggested by the text in game. What the in game text does say though is that Falchion will never dull with age.

If you're talking about the blade not being a different one, then sure, it may not be different I'll give you that. Nagi is still very much the only explanation for a living Naga though, she isn't headcannon in the least, since she's a character in New Mystery.

That and, do keep in mind that Nagi and Naga are one in the same, so it's pretty viable nonetheless, perhaps a name difference is all that's needed to differentiate between the amnesiac version of Naga and the non amnesiac version.

[Jotari]

 

10 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

If you're talking about the blade not being a different one, then sure, it may not be different I'll give you that. Nagi is still very much the only explanation for a living Naga though, she isn't headcannon in the least, since she's a character in New Mystery.

That and, do keep in mind that Nagi and Naga are one in the same, so it's pretty viable nonetheless, perhaps a name difference is all that's needed to differentiate between the amnesiac version of Naga and the non amnesiac version.

You're now arguing something I never disputed to begin with. All I was ever saying is that the suggestion that Chrom's Falchion is a different weapon created by Nagi is pure headcanon.

35 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

This is an interesting conversation. Regarding the Falchion...

I think this makes it clear that it's the same Falchion. The blade at least, is the same.

By the way, Falchion really was loosing its power. Naga simply repowered it during the time of the First Exalt.

Interesting thing to note, the Falchion in Shadows of Valentia is already 3,000 years old at the start of that game, which is a longer span of time than between Shadow Dragon and Awakening (or between the First Exalt and Awakening). So that either means the Gaiden Falchion wasn't losing it's blessing for some reason, or that Duma was able to repower it himself Which if true would mean any Divine Dragon could repower a weakened Falchion. Which brings up the question as to why Naga was even necessary as Tiki should have been able to upgrade the Falchion, or at least attempt to upgrade it. If the Valentia Falchion wasn't losing it's power over time and the Archanean Falchion was, then maybe the depowering of it is connected to the Dragon Degeneration which is seemingly stronger in Archanea than Valentia (as Duma and Mila lasted a lot longer than any other dragons without become manaketes {maybe} despite being way more powerful than most dragons). Of course the dragon degeneration seems to have stopped or been retconned or something in Awakening.

Speculation and overthinking aside, my original point is that there's absolutely no lore or development reason that Whalhart couldn't have wielded a Falchion of his own and given us an epic clash of Falchions in a duel between the decedents of two hero kings vying for the position of god slayer.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Jotari

[ArgentSable]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Interesting thing to note, the Falchion in Shadows of Valentia is already 3,000 years old at the start of that game, which is a longer span of time than between Shadow Dragon and Awakening (or between the First Exalt and Awakening). So that either means the Gaiden Falchion wasn't losing it's blessing for some reason, or that Duma was able to repower it himself Which if true would mean any Divine Dragon could repower a weakened Falchion. Which brings up the question as to why Naga was even necessary as Tiki should have been able to upgrade the Falchion, or at least attempt to upgrade it. If the Valentia Falchion wasn't losing it's power over time and the Archanean Falchion was, then maybe the depowering of it is connected to the Dragon Degeneration which is seemingly stronger in Archanea than Valentia (as Duma and Mila lasted a lot longer than any other dragons without become manaketes {maybe} despite being way more powerful than most dragons). Of course the dragon degeneration seems to have stopped or been retconned or something in Awakening.

Speculation and overthinking aside, my original point is that there's absolutely no lore or development reason that Whalhart couldn't have wielded a Falchion of his own and given us an epic clash of Falchions in a duel between the decedents of two hero kings vying for the position of hero.

Well, I actually think there may be reasons why the Falchion isn't in use in Awakening.

There's 2 options in my eyes.

1: It was burried with Alm or Duma (in Duma's head to be precise).

2: It was left with Grima. To remember, Falchion is used to seal Grima (If I didn't missremember how long Alm's dynasty lasted). There's a chance Grima had the second Falchion in him and when he awoke, probably snapped it in two like a twig, though we don't know the specifics for Grima's requirement to awaken (all puns intended)

Oh and I don't think regeneration was retconned per se. Dragons do degenerate, pretty heavily. The only two to never degenerate are Naga (who was reborn similarly to Medeus so that may have to do with it) and Tiki who's still rather young. Duma and Mila were actually manaketes as well, since Mila disguised herself as a human (with draconic features) and my guess is that Duma probably decide to do the exact opposite, making his fall all the quicker.

Edit: Oh and Grima doesn't degenerate. He's always been this insane ( a homunculus like dragon thing is likely to be insane in the first place), though his apparent hatred for humanity stemmed from his treatment and the knowledge he's accumulated (He says as much in Heroes).

And Jotari I miss-understood the entirety of our prior argument then. You're right then.

Edited January 7, 2019 by ArgentSable

[Acacia Sgt]

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

nteresting thing to note, the Falchion in Shadows of Valentia is already 3,000 years old at the start of that game, which is a longer span of time than between Shadow Dragon and Awakening (or between the First Exalt and Awakening). So that either means the Gaiden Falchion wasn't losing it's blessing for some reason, or that Duma was able to repower it himself Which if true would mean any Divine Dragon could repower a weakened Falchion. Which brings up the question as to why Naga was even necessary as Tiki should have been able to upgrade the Falchion, or at least attempt to upgrade it. If the Valentia Falchion wasn't losing it's power over time and the Archanean Falchion was, then maybe the depowering of it is connected to the Dragon Degeneration which is seemingly stronger in Archanea than Valentia (as Duma and Mila lasted a lot longer than any other dragons without become manaketes {maybe} despite being way more powerful than most dragons). Of course the dragon degeneration seems to have stopped or been retconned or something in Awakening.

Well, Duma was around to repower the sword if needed. As for Tiki... maybe she just doesn't know how? Or perhaps since Naga had already blood binded the Falchion to her with the First Exalt's blood (fun fact, Naga didn't did this the first time around, it was Gotoh the one who dinded the Falchion to Anri's bloodline), then only Naga could do it (Duma did blood bind the Valentian Falchion to him, as well), and unlike Tiki, she wasn't really that accessible. Tiki was still physically somewhere in the world, at least.

9 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

Oh and I don't think regeneration was retconned per se. Dragons do degenerate, pretty heavily. The only two to never degenerate are Naga (who was reborn similarly to Medeus so that may have to do with it) and Tiki who's still rather young. Duma and Mila were actually manaketes as well, since Mila disguised herself as a human (with draconic features) and my guess is that Duma probably decide to do the exact opposite, making his fall all the quicker.

Actually, Duma and Mila didn't became manaketes. They just took human form without moving their power into a dragonstone. Keep in mind that Duma and Mila left Archanea before dragons even learned about the degeneration, so they wouldn't know (Naga knew kinda, but never outright told them; she just gave them a kingsfang and pretty much said 'just in case'). And even once degeneration began to kick in for them, they wouldn't know either about escaping it by moving their power into another vessel.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I think this makes it clear that it's the same Falchion. The blade at least, is the same.

 

Yeah, I think it's the same as the Mega Man X Zero & Mega Man Zero Zero situation. The two designs are totally different, but this is purely for player aesthetics. Canonically, Zero's body design is the same in both X and MMZ.

So, as bizarre as it sounds to us, Marth and Anri slew Medeus with a sword with a wacky hole in the middle, and the Falchion of Lucina and Chrom don't have an Awakening-related message ciphered on it. It's Schrodinger's Design almost.

I'd prefer it if the Falchion was physically reshaped by Naga during the First Exalt's time, with Divinedragonite that composes it remaining the exact same, but I don't think that is the case.

 

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Or better yet, have Whalhart wield Alm's Falchion and be a rival of Chrom's for the role of God slayer. In a game filled to the brim with wasted potential, not giving Whalhart his own Falchion (which would have been trivially easy to do) was the biggest misstep.

And now I'm thinking SMTIV Apocalypse meets FE Awakening. ? (Some lategame spoilers alluded to)

Spoiler

Dagda- Yo, I need someone here to be my Godslayer.

*Sees Chrom and Robin*

Dagda- Looks like they have potential.

Robin- I love my friends!

Chrom- I do too!

Dagda- *Sigh* Why am I stuck with this?

Walhart- I will conquer the world for humanity and Man alone all by myself!

Dagda- **** them. Hey! You don't seem like such a sap. I'm a god who wants to be free and all alone, be my Godslayer. My power will be yours and humanity yours to recreate.

Walhart- Hahahaha a suicidal god! Absolutely! GIVE ME THY STRENGTH!

Dagda- It is done. But you know we need a sidekick Godslayer, sorry to say. Blue Boy there is perfect for the job. *Brainwashes Chrom and warps away with him*

Robin- Noooooo! Chrom!

Dagda- And we need a Goddess for you to repopulate the world with. Whoever ya want- man or woman, I'm em' happen.

Walhart- Hmm... as spineless and treasonous as he is, Excellus!

Excellus- What!?! 

Walhart- You reject my order Excellus?

Excellus- Well um no, but I'm not exactly-

Pheros- No my Conqueror, make it me!

Walhart- Ah Pheros, I forgot about you. Well you want it and aren't hideous like him, fine. Dagda, make her my Goddess. And I'll make Excellus the first victim of the genocide of Man's rebirth.

Excellus- No wait I change my mind! 

Walhart- Too late Excellus. *His blood splatters everywhere*

 

*Elsewhere*

Robin- Whatever am I going to do to save Chrom? Naga help me!

Naga- Sorry, this Dagda fellow is an enigma to me.

Lucina- What is this that I feel welling up inside me?

Danu- *Manifests out of Lucina*  I can help you, believe in your bonds of friendship.

Dagdar- *Warps in* Shut it Mother!

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

35 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

Well, I actually think there may be reasons why the Falchion isn't in use in Awakening.

There's 2 options in my eyes.

1: It was burried with Alm or Duma (in Duma's head to be precise).

2: It was left with Grima. To remember, Falchion is used to seal Grima (If I didn't missremember how long Alm's dynasty lasted). There's a chance Grima had the second Falchion in him and when he awoke, probably snapped it in two like a twig, though we don't know the specifics for Grima's requirement to awaken (all puns intended)

Oh and I don't think regeneration was retconned per se. Dragons do degenerate, pretty heavily. The only two to never degenerate are Naga (who was reborn similarly to Medeus so that may have to do with it) and Tiki who's still rather young. Duma and Mila were actually manaketes as well, since Mila disguised herself as a human (with draconic features) and my guess is that Duma probably decide to do the exact opposite, making his fall all the quicker.

Edit: Oh and Grima doesn't degenerate. He's always been this insane ( a homunculus like dragon thing is likely to be insane in the first place), though his apparent hatred for humanity stemmed from his treatment and the knowledge he's accumulated (He says as much in Heroes).

And Jotari I miss-understood the entirety of our prior argument then. You're right then.

There's a multitude of reasons why the Valencian Falchion could have went missing in the the two thousand years between the two games, I just think it's a major missed opportunity that they gave Walhart some random prf Axe instead of a Falchion. It would have enhanced the plot line greatly even without changing a single word of dialogue.

Regarding the degeneration, it's never mentioned at all in Awakening even though it should be a concerning matter regarding Nowi's mental health and what's more, the Fire Emblem has a completely different function than what it was purported to do in Mystery of the Emblem. It's like they didn't play that game at all when they made Awakening. They got that it had five gem stones and that's literally it.

10 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Yeah, I think it's the same as the Mega Man X Zero & Mega Man Zero Zero situation. The two designs are totally different, but this is purely for player aesthetics. Canonically, Zero's body design is the same in both X and MMZ.

So, as bizarre as it sounds to us, Marth and Anri slew Medeus with a sword with a wacky hole in the middle, and the Falchion of Lucina and Chrom don't have an Awakening-related message ciphered on it. It's Schrodinger's Design almost.

I'd prefer it if the Falchion was physically reshaped by Naga during the First Exalt's time, with Divinedragonite that composes it remaining the exact same, but I don't think that is the case.

 

And now I'm thinking SMTIV Apocalypse meets FE Awakening. ? (Some lategame spoilers alluded to)

  Hide contents

Dagda- Yo, I need someone here to be my Godslayer.

*Sees Chrom and Robin*

Dagda- Looks like they have potential.

Robin- I love my friends!

Chrom- I do too!

Dagda- *Sigh* Why am I stuck with this?

Walhart- I will conquer the world for humanity and Man alone all by myself!

Dagda- **** them. Hey! You don't seem like such a sap. I'm a god who wants to be free and all alone, be my Godslayer. My power will be yours and humanity yours to recreate.

Walhart- Hahahaha a suicidal god! Absolutely! GIVE ME THY STRENGTH!

Dagda- It is done. But you know we need a sidekick Godslayer, sorry to say. Blue Boy there is perfect for the job. *Brainwashes Chrom and warps away with him*

Robin- Noooooo! Chrom!

Dagda- And we need a Goddess for you to repopulate the world with. Whoever ya want- man or woman, I'm em' happen.

Walhart- Hmm... as spineless and treasonous as he is, Excellus!

Excellus- What!?! 

Walhart- You reject my order Excellus?

Excellus- Well um no, but I'm not exactly-

Pheros- No my Conqueror, make it me!

Walhart- Ah Pheros, I forgot about you. Well you want it and aren't hideous like him, fine. Dagda, make her my Goddess. And I'll my Excellus the first victim of the genocide of Man's rebirth.

Excellus- No wait I change my mind! 

Walhart- Too late Excellus. *His blood splatters everywhere*

 

*Elsewhere*

Robin- Whatever am I going to do to save Chrom? Naga help me!

Naga- Sorry, this Dagda fellow is an enigma to me.

Lucina- What is this that I feel welling up inside me?

Danu- *Manifests out of Lucina*  I can help you, believe in your bonds of friendship.

Dagdar- *Warps in* Shut it Mother!

 

I've only played the original Shin Megami Tensei IV, but the news that Apocalypse has Irish gods as part of the plot legit makes me consider buying it.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Jotari

[ArgentSable]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

There's a multitude of reasons why the Valencian Falchion could have went missing in the the two thousand years between the two games, I just think it's a major missed opportunity that they gave Walhart some random prf Axe instead of a Falchion. It would have enhanced the plot line greatly even without changing a single word of dialogue.

Regarding the degeneration, it's never mentioned at all in Awakening even though it should be a concerning matter regarding Nowi's mental health and what's more, the Fire Emblem has a completely different function than what it was purported to do in Mystery of the Emblem. It's like they didn't play that game at all when they made Awakening. They got that it had five gem stones and that's literally it.

I don't think Nowi will degenerate. She's a manakete, not a pure blood. So long as the dragonstone remains in their care they won't degenerate, that's how it's supposed to work, isn't it?

And the Fire Emblem per se always has a different use in each game. Marth's FE seals dragons, so I don't think the difference is as large.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

I don't think Nowi will degenerate. She's a manakete, not a pure blood. So long as the dragonstone remains in their care they won't degenerate, that's how it's supposed to work, isn't it?

And the Fire Emblem per se always has a different use in each game. Marth's FE seals dragons, so I don't think the difference is as large.

Well they're worried about Tiki degenerating even though she was a manakete since birth, which to me suggests young divine manaketes are at risk until they get old enough to control their power, or probably more likely they have no idea what caused the degeneration or the exact rules about it and are pretty paranoid about any sufficiently powerful dragon.

Yeah, but it's meant to be literally the exact same Fire Emblem.

[Interdimensional Observer]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I've only played the original Shin Megami Tensei IV, but the news that Apocalypse has Irish gods as part of the plot legit makes me consider buying it.

Yep, Danu and Dagda both play huge roles in the plot from the first five minutes to the end. Dagda more so. And while there is another deity in a plot role too, specifically Irish mythos themes do not feature in the plot. Dagda's design:

Spoiler

 

9 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

I don't think Nowi will degenerate. She's a manakete, not a pure blood. So long as the dragonstone remains in their care they won't degenerate, that's how it's supposed to work, isn't it?

What is the difference?

Also, Tiki had her Dragonstone on her in Mystery, but she was still at risk of degeneration as long as the Binding Shield was incomplete.

The two excuses that could work are one:

1. Child Tiki was exceptional. Being Naga daughter gave her much greater power than a normal Manakete, thus making her more prone to degeneration due to her power collapsing on the mind and body it is supposed to support.
2. The second is by the time of Awakening, the "magical climate" which affects dragons, has changed to be less hostile to dragons and their minds. 2000 years is a reasonable time for such a shift to happen, even if it isn't enough of a change for dragons to start reproducing like rabbits.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Yep, Danu and Dagda both play huge roles in the plot from the first five minutes to the end. Dagda more so. And while there is another deity in a plot role too, specifically Irish mythos themes do not feature in the plot. Dagda's design:

  Hide contents

 

Well he's a red head...and he has a nice celtic spiral on his belt...but that's not the kind of image I would have made for the Dagda. I wasn't actually all that impressed with the Story of Shin Megami Tensei IV (that's why I never investigated the sequel), in fact I was actually quite disappointed with it (but my oh my was the gameplay absolutely fantastic). So now I'm guessing they just took his ma,e (or rather his title, as that's not his name. He's "The" Dagda, not just Dagda) and threw their own personality on him at which point you got to ask what's even the point. Still got to represent. Irish mythology is pretty great and demonstrably under represented. I'll take any representation I can get.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well he's a red head...and he has a nice celtic spiral on his belt...but that's not the kind of image I would have made for the Dagda.

I think you can say the same of some other new designs in the game. Not all of them, though. Some are fairly traditional, others much modernized with artistic license, and others being a modern adaption in line with the spirt of the mythos (SMT Loki is the ideal of this middle ground for me). The usual for SMT, though some critics would say this one is more slanted towards artistic license and away from the original mythos.

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I wasn't actually all that impressed with the Story of Shin Megami Tensei IV (that's why I never investigated the sequel), in fact I was actually quite disappointed with it (but my oh my was the gameplay absolutely fantastic).

You could probably expect more of the same in Apo. The story, although less bland, and in ways better, are in others flawed and more cliched. Yet the gameplay is even better than in IV, and that kept me in 'till the end. 

Just trying to help you make an informed decision on whether to buy it or not.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer