omegaxis1 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, Otts486 said: yeah exactly(I really need to get around to playing the original xenoblade chronicles). Honestly the more I think about it, the more I realize that awakening's story is actually really really good if only underdeveloped. Exactly. Awakening is rushed, but the story is not actually bad. People just get prejudiced over it because of how it introduced the waifus and stronger fanservice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said: Exactly. Awakening is rushed, but the story is not actually bad. People just get prejudiced over it because of how it introduced the waifus and stronger fanservice. I'd say it's poorly executed. If I could dictate anything, Awakening would've been a trilogy, so every arc would have time to develop the characters/world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, eclipse said: I'd say it's poorly executed. If I could dictate anything, Awakening would've been a trilogy, so every arc would have time to develop the characters/world. That goes alongside what I meant by rushed. Awakening having three arcs crammed into one game. Each arc could have been its own game that tied everything up together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottservia Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 13 minutes ago, eclipse said: I'd say it's poorly executed. I wouldn't say that. I mean awakening does handle its themes with a fair degree of competence as far as I can tell. it's just a lot of plot points and story beats feel rushed and are thereby underdeveloped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, Otts486 said: I wouldn't say that. I mean awakening does handle its themes with a fair degree of competence as far as I can tell. it's just a lot of plot points and story beats feel rushed and are thereby underdeveloped. . . .hence poorly executed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottservia Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, eclipse said: . . .hence poorly executed? I suppose I should clarify. The themes themselves aren't poorly executed but rather the structure of the story is as well as its villains(with a couple exceptions mind you) are. if that makes sense. I mean I understood the themes and messages of the story clearly and there is a fair degree of nuance to it but the villains are a tad lackluster and all but I'd say two of them don't actually really fit into those themes. Otherwise I think the themes themselves are handled well. Not perfect but decent enough. Edit: I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it isn't "poorly executed" but rather "not executed as well as it could've been" Edited January 1, 2019 by Otts486 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, Otts486 said: I suppose I should clarify. The themes themselves aren't poorly executed but rather the structure of the story is as well as its villains(with a couple exceptions mind you) are. if that makes sense. I mean I understood the themes and messages of the story clearly and there is a fair degree of nuance to it but the villains are a tad lackluster and all but I'd say two of them don't actually really fit into those themes. Otherwise I think the themes themselves are handled well. Not perfect but decent enough. "Poorly executed" is about how the story is conveyed. If the story feels rushed and underdeveloped, that's poor execution. It has nothing to do with the actual meat behind the story (themes and the like). Villain presentation is less clear - perhaps they could've been more nuanced, or perhaps they were meant to be so blatantly evil that players wanted to give them the boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottservia Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 minute ago, eclipse said: "Poorly executed" is about how the story is conveyed. If the story feels rushed and underdeveloped, that's poor execution. It has nothing to do with the actual meat behind the story (themes and the like). Villain presentation is less clear - perhaps they could've been more nuanced, or perhaps they were meant to be so blatantly evil that players wanted to give them the boot. I do understand that but I think the execution isn't poor but rather ok. Again it's not so much "poor execution" as it is "I feel this could've been executed better than it is" Which sounds like the same thing but the term "poor execution" just sounds a little too negative to me. When I think poor execution, I think of fates and uh yeah..... That game's story is the very definition of good ideas poor execution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Otts486 said: I do understand that but I think the execution isn't poor but rather ok. Again it's not so much "poor execution" as it is "I feel this could've been executed better than it is" Which sounds like the same thing but the term "poor execution" just sounds a little too negative to me. When I think poor execution, I think of fates and uh yeah..... That game's story is the very definition of good ideas poor execution. I guess my standards are different than yours. Awakening is some good ideas with poor execution. Fates is "I think I know what the themes are?" with abysmal execution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 minute ago, eclipse said: I guess my standards are different than yours. Awakening is some good ideas with poor execution. Fates is "I think I know what the themes are?" with abysmal execution. Makes sense. I sometimes wonder what the themes of each story are. Should make a thread about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottservia Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, eclipse said: I guess my standards are different than yours. Awakening is some good ideas with poor execution. Fates is "I think I know what the themes are?" with abysmal execution. I suppose that is the case. Honestly I think the disconnect is in how we each used the term "poor execution". To me "poor execution" is much more broad and general than yours or rather my definition of the term carries the same connotations as your use of the term "abysmal execution" as you put it. @omegaxis1 that we should my dude that we should Edited January 1, 2019 by Otts486 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Just now, Otts486 said: I suppose that is the case. Honestly I think the disconnect is in how we each used the term "poor execution". To me "poor execution" is much more broad and general than yours or rather my definition of the term carries the same connotations as your use of the term "abysmal execution" as you put it. To it, it sounds like a case of similar to the glass half full/empty thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NobodiePichu Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said: Exactly. Awakening is rushed, but the story is not actually bad. People just get prejudiced over it because of how it introduced the waifus and stronger fanservice. im going to forcibly disagree on this one, its not the worst thing ever but its far from even halfway decent. quarter way decent story maybe and even then i feel thats being a bit generous since any of its good ideas it nicked from other fire emblems and then did an either half assessed or quarter assessed job with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, NobodiePichu said: im going to forcibly disagree on this one, its not the worst thing ever but its far from even halfway decent. quarter way decent story maybe and even then i feel thats being a bit generous since any of its good ideas it nicked from other fire emblems and then did an either half assessed or quarter assessed job with them. And I disagree with what you say. Awakening made a story that I felt was good throughout, but simply rushed things through to prevent it from achieving it's full potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Awakening's story was super bad by FE standards, mostly treading the same ground previous games did but with plot points rushed or condensed due to the bizarre 3-arc structure. Then Fates was even worse The gameplay of both games is stellar though, so overall I can't complain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottservia Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, General Banzai said: Awakening's story was super bad by FE standards still better than SoV's plot I'll tell you that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Otts486 said: still better than SoV's plot I'll tell you that. You know, I feel if anything, while some stuff done in SoV makes more sense than how it was done in Gaiden, I think when it came to themes, Gaiden actually handled the themes better than SoV had. Ironic that the remake couldn't improve that, but made it worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Otts486 said: still better than SoV's plot I'll tell you that. Echoes is top tier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NobodiePichu Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: And I disagree with what you say. Awakening made a story that I felt was good throughout, but simply rushed things through to prevent it from achieving it's full potential. no, it did not. the story of awakening did not suffer from being rushed, it suffered from bad execution and construction. the entirety of valm should have either been cut or reworked drastically since it contributes nothing to the stories themes, the plotting, or any of the characters arcs. the future plot line was also pointless and even potentially detrimental to some of the characters involved in the situation. the plegia plotline was the closest plotline to being good but it had no polish, and the grimeal plot was the definition of tacked on to the point that it needed to add retroactive information to pretend that it wasn't tacked on. its all a pointless waste of time that only manages to muster the idea of 'be excellent to each other aight?' in its thematic messages. It also fucked up any of its character arcs so theres that to. awakenings story would not have been better if given more time, it would only be better by ripping out the guts. Edited January 2, 2019 by NobodiePichu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottservia Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) On 1/1/2019 at 10:49 PM, omegaxis1 said: You know, I feel if anything, while some stuff done in SoV makes more sense than how it was done in Gaiden, I think when it came to themes, Gaiden actually handled the themes better than SoV had. Ironic that the remake couldn't improve that, but made it worse. yeah because SoV tried to flesh out a barebones story with shit that didn't make any sense. I mean the reason gaiden's story works at all is because of how bare bones it is. I mean it's not impossible to flesh it out and make it better but they didn't do that. Instead they tried to expand on themes that wouldn't have worked given the later plot twists and then they made alm a paragon who can do no wrong when he's supposed to be foil to celica who is supposed to be a kind loving person who learns to grow a spine but then is actually presented as a dumbass damsel because no one but alm can be correct. Seriously all my problems with how SoV handles it's themes can summarized in a single meme. On 1/1/2019 at 10:50 PM, General Banzai said: Echoes is top tier I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Edited October 8, 2021 by Ottservia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Otts486 said: I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Why would it be sarcasm? Echoes' story was refreshingly good after the last two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottservia Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just now, General Banzai said: Why would it be sarcasm? Echoes' story was refreshingly good after the last two cause echoes' story at least imo is worse than awakening's for reason I have explained earlier in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pengaius Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 7 hours ago, Otts486 said: cause echoes' story at least imo is worse than awakening's for reason I have explained earlier in this thread. I mean it does have some plotholes (teleporting Mycen, celiacs omnipotent Alm saving magic of love, etc) but it's very well executed and has a good representation of Sloth (Mila) and Wrath (Duma) and some of the plot is a little sporadic (I mean we never even hear about Garth, but Celica sure has) but it handles its arcs well (even though Desaix just fricking blows the plot twist when you kill him) and none of it he characters feel overly evil except for maybe Jedah and Nuibaba nut the former is a Gharnef and can be interprited as just a religious Zealot Spoiler He goes so far as to Sacrifice 2 of his daughters souls to Duma While the latter is intentionally evil The plot and characters feel more realistic than Awakenings, and all of the plot arcs are better done (even with Grima tacked onto the end) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Pengaius said: I mean it does have some plotholes (teleporting Mycen, celiacs omnipotent Alm saving magic of love, etc) but it's very well executed and has a good representation of Sloth (Mila) and Wrath (Duma) and some of the plot is a little sporadic (I mean we never even hear about Garth, but Celica sure has) but it handles its arcs well (even though Desaix just fricking blows the plot twist when you kill him) and none of it he characters feel overly evil except for maybe Jedah and Nuibaba nut the former is a Gharnef and can be interprited as just a religious Zealot Hide contents He goes so far as to Sacrifice 2 of his daughters souls to Duma While the latter is intentionally evil The plot and characters feel more realistic than Awakenings, and all of the plot arcs are better done (even with Grima tacked onto the end) It's more on how Echoes doesn't actually handle the themes that well. The theme of Echoes tries to be that what defines a man is not the status of his birth, but his actions. Alm being thought of as someone born a commoner would grow to become a leader that can unite people together. Even has cases where other kids felt that Alm and Celica were different. But turns out that no, Alm was different because he's the son of the Emperor. Mycen even comments that some of Alm's characteristics are because of his relation to Rudolf. This ultimately reverses the theme that tries to establish itself, showing that Alm's charisma and skills are more due to being born royalty. In fact, the rivalry between him and Berkut is generally felt to be a case of the hard worker (Alm) facing a natural talent (Berkut), so it felt as if someone that was working hard can overcome the natural born prodigy. But in actuality, it's the reverse. Alm was the natural born, and Berkut was the hard worker. Awakening, on the other hand, keeps the themes it presents consistent and never breaks from what it tries to convey. And it was going by various themes through the arcs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottservia Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Pengaius said: I mean it does have some plotholes (teleporting Mycen, celiacs omnipotent Alm saving magic of love, etc) but it's very well executed and has a good representation of Sloth (Mila) and Wrath (Duma) and some of the plot is a little sporadic (I mean we never even hear about Garth, but Celica sure has) but it handles its arcs well (even though Desaix just fricking blows the plot twist when you kill him) and none of it he characters feel overly evil except for maybe Jedah and Nuibaba nut the former is a Gharnef and can be interprited as just a religious Zealot Reveal hidden contents He goes so far as to Sacrifice 2 of his daughters souls to Duma While the latter is intentionally evil The plot and characters feel more realistic than Awakenings, and all of the plot arcs are better done (even with Grima tacked onto the end) its just as @omegaxis1 says. It's not so much about plot holes or villain writing but rather how the story chooses to convey it's core themes and messages. To me personally, the most important aspect of any story are its themes and messages and how it goes about conveying those themes and messages. Because a story's themes play into everything from its plot, characters, world, etc. and if there's one thing a story should almost never do is contradict its themes and messages. SoV does this in spades. This game's story is constantly contradicting itself without ever acknowledging it and just expects you to listen to what it's trying to say because it is quote "profound" or whatever. No if you tell me not to shop lift but then immediately when we walk out of the store you show me how many items you shoplifted. Why should I listen to you? You're just a hypocrit at that point and that's my problem with SoV's story. I mean say what you will about awakening's story but at least it's consistent with its themes. Also that's not to say a story can't contradict its own themes, its just the stories that do so do it intentionally for the sake of further exploration of said themes. If a story contradicts itself, at the very least it should acknowledge it and correct itself accordingly. Edited January 2, 2019 by Otts486 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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