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Decerd

May I ask why some Fire Emblem fans act like Awakening and Fates were the worst thing to happen to the series?

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2 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

I will admit the armour designs are stupid but is there any reason to get so worked up over such a small detail. I mean seriously you're just nitpicking at this point.

Dude, all I did was addressing your claim of character designs not being much more exploitative "than what can be found in the rest of the series". That does not actually mean I believe it's a big deal. Yet you seem eager as dismissing any criticism of the franchise as being "upset about a little fanservice".

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9 minutes ago, Decerd said:

Well, I looked for a good game in Awakening and Fates, which I got with the former and kind of with the latter. So Awakening and Fates gives you the option to date "waifus". Who cares? I didn't play them because they could let me date "Muh Waifus", I play them because I like them. The whole dating thing is something that just happened to come with it. Also, I think you might making a good amount of assumptions when you say the community as a whole likes the idea of the dating mechanics.

To be fair, I think you might also be assuming a bit of things in regards to Old FE fans kinda like how the guy you're quoting is. Not every "Old Guard" is like the people you're talking about. It's true I do not like Awakening and Fates, but I have enough sense not attack the people who do like them like a mad dog. Just play what you like and ignore them man.

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I do think there's some truth to what Manstein is saying.

If the majority of FE gamers didn't care for fanservice and the like then why is it that the biggest FE fan controversy leading up to the release of Fates was about not being able to pet your units?

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4 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

No I do not agree. I didn't play Fire emblem Awakening and Fates because they have so many waifus and anime fanfiction and whatnot. I played it because it's an RPG, and it's part of my favourite series. I think you're getting a bit rude here by just casually calling people who play and like these games out for just playing it for anime or their precious waifus. Get your head out of your ass and think about this logically. 

dude he's got a point, chill. even if people play these games for cute anime girls who cares? they're having fun, you could too if you keep an open mind

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1 minute ago, Hekselka said:

I do think there's some truth to what Manstein is saying.

If the majority of FE gamers didn't care for fanservice and the like then why is it that the biggest FE fan controversy leading up to the release of Fates was about not being able to pet your units?

And why does IS make so many Camilla alts?

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6 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

Yeah I've also was annoyed by how much hate FE13 and FE14 get around here, like if someone who's new to this series saw all of that, he would think those games are bad, which they aren't even close to being that.

good point

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16 minutes ago, Decerd said:

Well, I looked for a good game in Awakening and Fates, which I got with the former and kind of with the latter. So Awakening and Fates gives you the option to date "waifus". Who cares? I didn't play them because they could let me date "Muh Waifus", I play them because I like them. The whole dating thing is something that just happened to come with it. Also, I think you might making a good amount of assumptions when you say the community as a whole likes the idea of the dating mechanics.

If not for Awakening the franchise would be dead. What was introduced in Awakening that saved the franchise? Waifus were. People love waifus and they loved Awakening because of it. It was this very aspect that made the series popular. This is what newer people were looking for in Awakening. You perhaps might not have looked for this aspect specifically, but a lot of people did. Most of the newer fans came because of it. If Awakening were like the previous entries it would not have been as successful as it was.

I am saying that the most of the newer fans like the idea of the dating mechanics, not the community as a whole, since this is the very reason that divides us in older fans and newer fans.

Edited by Manstein
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9 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

I can at least say that dancers haven't changed.

Let's just be glad that female designs aren't like FE1 Elice artwork.

FEARHT_Elice.png

To be fair, even Marth was pantless. Equal opportunity!

On topic, though, I think it's perhaps some combination of execution and association. Fates likely had those things because Awakening used them, and it worked to an extent. Except they clashed. You know, the criticisms about how Corrin was handled, how Corrin could pair up with his/her siblings, even the supposed blood ones. Or how the second gen in Fates also had it's handling flaws, like the whole deal about them growing up in realms where time flows different and all that stuff just to have them as playable units.

Since it was things Awakening did but handled perhaps better, and since for many it was their first time seeing it (New Mystery had an Avatar and Genealogy a second gen, but being Japan-only means not many would know in comparison), they associate Awakening as the ones who "opened the floodgates", so to speak.

Of course, it's not a line of thought everyone who dislikes those games would think as. It's just one way I could see it happening.

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6 minutes ago, Roland said:

To be fair, I think you might also be assuming a bit of things in regards to Old FE fans kinda like how the guy you're quoting is. Not every "Old Guard" is like the people you're talking about. It's true I do not like Awakening and Fates, but I have enough sense not attack the people who do like them like a mad dog. Just play what you like and ignore them man.

I'm aware of that. Hence the "some" in my question. I just wanted to know why they think the way they do, but so far they've done nothing to make think otherwise.

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1 minute ago, Hekselka said:

I do think there's some truth to what Manstein is saying.

If the majority of FE gamers didn't care for fanservice and the like then why is it that the biggest FE fan controversy leading up to the release of Fates was about not being able to pet your units?

Perhaps because that section was more vocal?  More vocal outcry doesn't necessarily mean more people who are discontent.  I see Celica get tons of hate for example, yet she still managed to do very well in the second Choose Your Legends poll.

Anyway, I'm having a hard time collecting my thoughts and presenting them properly because I keep getting ninja'd.

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1 minute ago, BrightBow said:

Dude, all I did was addressing your claim of character designs not being much more exploitative "than what can be found in the rest of the series". That does not actually mean I believe it's a big deal. Yet you seem eager as dismissing any criticism of the franchise as being "upset about a little fanservice".

first of all I apologize for straw manning you like that. I misunderstood you're point and refuted in a way that was out of line. Second no I am not dismissing criticism as being "upset over a little fanserveice" I am dismissing THAT criticism in particular cause it's a stupid argument. I mean there's nothing wrong with fan service in it of itself. People act like just the tiniest bit of fanservice automatically makes the game worse by it's mere existence without really any attempt to analyze it beyond that. I mean just because you personally don't like it that does not make it objectively bad and that's my issue with that argument. 

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16 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

I can at least say that dancers haven't changed.

Let's just be glad that female designs aren't like FE1 Elice artwork.

FEARHT_Elice.png

Don't you dare post the horrible artwork from those games.

FEMN_Draug_03.png.d8aa4a3cd7ce497d926d79ad68b7cac4.png

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14 minutes ago, Roland said:

To be fair, I think you might also be assuming a bit of things in regards to Old FE fans kinda like how the guy you're quoting is. Not every "Old Guard" is like the people you're talking about. It's true I do not like Awakening and Fates, but I have enough sense not attack the people who do like them like a mad dog. Just play what you like and ignore them man.

I never said everyone is like that though? I said some people are like that, not everyone, I know better. But yes, I will do just that and play what I like.

Edit: Wow excuse me for quoting the wrong person, I am so sorry.

Edited by Michelaar

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48 minutes ago, Manstein said:

Excuse me? Do you not agree this is what people like when you see the community? I do not think whether that is true or not is up to debate. There is a reason these things saved the franchise. Do you seriously think people look for a tactic game in Awakening or Fates?

Well, I like the gameplay in Awakening (especially on higher difficulties) and hate the shipping and waifus. I also know quite some people who only like the gameplay of conquest. But if you go to the pinterest of Fire emblem you realize that quite a few people think that shipping is the most important part. And it's very important. How could I otherwise get the rescue staff early in FE4?

36 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

Tiki? what fanservice? I mean yeah big boobs but that's it. Breasts are a natural part of the female body so what's so wrong about character having big breasts. I don't see the issue here. With aversa, it makes sense. I mean she's supposed to be the sexy seductress villain type so of course she's gonna have a design like that. The DLC is completely harmless. For one you don't HAVE to buy it and secondly what's so wrong about a simple beach DLC? I mean it's a beach and as such you're obviously gonna see characters in bathing suits that's just a fact of life. I mean it doesn't ruin the story or characters so I fail to see the issue. In fact it actually adds to the characterization of these characters because now we know how they react to situations like this. It's a fun harmless little side adventure that you can buy if you so choose. I mean it doesn't ruin the game by existing so what's wrong with it? the fact that it exists? Well then that's just close minded. Tharja I will grant is a very poor implementation of Fan service because it serves no real purpose other than to pander. It doesn't add anything interesting to tharja's character but in fact makes her character look worse because it just feels so out of place and exploitative. 

My question is why is fan service such a boogeyman to people? if a dev wants to put a sexy character in his game why not let him? What's wrong with that? I mean so long as it doesn't detract from the game at all I don't see the issue. There's nothing wrong with fanservice in it of itself. The problem lies with how it's implemented.

Tiki also has a huge cleavage which very clearly shows her breasts and has clothing that show her legs up until her hips. The whole thing with Aversa & the beach dlc is that these are decisions that the creators where willing to make. They designed a character in such a way to be appealing. Whether it serves a purpose doesn't matter to me. There could just as well be a male character who manipulates people, but they didn't because people wouldn't like that as much (just look at CYL). The beach dlc doesn't add anything of substance. I'm pretty certain that people didn't dress like that when they went to beaches in that time period (if they even went to the beach). If IS really wanted character development they should put them in situations that are things that characters would do in-universe.

The thing is with fanservice is that it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It often is a calculated move from the developers to have mass appeal. Previous games had it but not to this extent and it was only limited to characters who had reasons for being that way. Nowadays we have characters that feel like they aren't allowed to be themselves because of the intention of the developer (Nyx and Kagero)  and characters that are fanservice (Camilla and Nowi). Also I often dislike fanservice (yes, even in older games like fe4) so when every character has fanservice aspects I notice and get annoyed

People can like the 3ds games because they have good parts and it's not like the previous games are flawless. But you also need to understand why people could dislike these games. I love fe4 but my best friend hates it and he loves fates which I hate and we respect each others opinions

Edited by LJwalhout

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Quite frankly, I think both Awakening and Fates as a whole are bad Fire Emblem games(Conquest is great on the gameplay front, however). 

And I'll be the first... well, I'm too late in this thread to say I'm the first... But I'll willingly admit that a good chunk of my animosity towards the games comes from their popularity. 

When it comes to franchises like Final Fantasy, I can take some solace in knowing that I hate entries like 2 and 13 because I just think they're awful entries in the series. Downright repulsive a lot of the times. Those were two entries in a franchise that had always been popular, and there isn't much worry in my mind that they'll heavily influence the rest of the series. 

With Fire Emblem? Awakening saved the franchise, and Fates established it as one of Nintendo's biggest properties. This comes with an awful nagging in the back of my head. The more Fire Emblem gets promoted, the more I worry that it's going to be more like Awakening and Fates. Two games that don't represent what I once loved the series for. 

And little has been done nothing to quell this worry. Smash Brothers? More than half of the FE roster is represented by Awakening/Fates. Heroes? Almost every seasonal banner is something Awakening/Fates related, and so much of the rosters of those games are fully represented, while games I like/love in the franchise are flatout ignored outside of some key characters. Warriors? It was disappointing to learn that it was just going to be FE1, Awakening and Fates. It was even more disappointing to see that not even FE1 got that much love compared to Awakening and Fates in that game. 

I can't even get excited for Three Houses, because I'm fully expecting a bait and switch. I'm expecting the next trailer to be full of fanservice and Avatar worship. I'm fully expecting cringey anime tropes to be front and center. I'm expecting them to detail some game mechanic that sends off huge red flags. I can't get excited for the game at all because I'm worried it will wind up like Fates and Awakening, since IS has made it clear that those games are more important to them than any other games in the franchise. Do you know how much it sucks to not be able to get excited for a franchise that used to be one of your favorites? And how much it sucks to not be able to get excited about side projects because you're worried that things you don't like about the franchise will be shoved in your face? 

All that said, I'm fully in the "Hate the game, not the player" corner. I don't hate anyone for liking Awakening or Fates. People should be free to like what they like. I didn't even really want to post in this thread, since I figured it'd be a dumpster fire. 

Edited by Slumber

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2 minutes ago, Manstein said:

Don't you dare post the horrible artwork from those games.

*immediately posts horrible artwork*  

Anyway, I do think there's a lot of negative reaction to Awakening and Fates because of their increased fanservice.  What I conclude about these people is that they'd rather see resources that are put into fanservice instead devoted to improved story, seeing as story is not something Awakening and Fates are held in high regard for.

But there's a problem with that.  Even before Awakening and Fates, very few Fire Emblem stories (these being Genealogy of the Holy War and maybe the Tellius games) had highly praised stories to begin with.  So I'm not confident that cutting down on fanservice will result in a positive trend in good story anytime soon, especially with Kaga gone.

Some might also believe gameplay resources are being diverted away to fanservice, but this I cannot find as much hard evidence of, except perhaps for Fates's My Castle system.  Bleh.

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I was gonna come here and say "blah blah fanservice blah blah waifu emblem" but I think everyone already has that covered. Plus, some of the things we got introduced to us in Awakening weren't entirely bad, even the fanservice stuff. I'm a particular fan of the S rank support. I don't know why, but it just makes me enjoy the game more. (Though, I don't particularly like Fates at all. It did somethings right, but I just don't enjoy the game as much as I did Awakening)

But, another thing I think makes people dislike Fates and Awakening, is the fact that they are just... rather easy. Which is why Conquest, out of the three routes of Fates is the most favoured of all three (from what I've seen). Awakening was easy, Birthright was made to be easy (if I'm not wrong it was often advertised as a good "beginners game"). Not only is it easy, the maps often times feel rather.... dull. Especially in Birthright and Awakening. 

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9 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

*immediately posts horrible artwork*  

Anyway, I do think there's a lot of negative reaction to Awakening and Fates because of their increased fanservice.  What I conclude about these people is that they'd rather see resources that are put into fanservice instead devoted to improved story, seeing as story is not something Awakening and Fates are held in high regard for.

But there's a problem with that.  Even before Awakening and Fates, very few Fire Emblem stories (these being Genealogy of the Holy War and maybe the Tellius games) had highly praised stories to begin with.  So I'm not confident that cutting down on fanservice will result in a positive trend in good story anytime soon, especially with Kaga gone.

Some might also believe gameplay resources are being diverted away to fanservice, but this I cannot find as much hard evidence of, except perhaps for Fates's My Castle system.  Bleh.

The quality of the old Fire Emblem stories is literally not a problem at all. There is a difference between trying to do something good and failing and trying to do something awful and succeeding. God help, I don't think Kaga's stories are actually any good. But he was trying to tell stories about war and the people caught up in it. He wasn't using his games and it's characters as vehicles for sucking the player's dick.

Edited by BrightBow

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10 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I can't even get excited for Three Houses, because I'm fully expecting a bait and switch. I'm expecting the next trailer to be full of fanservice and Avatar worship. I'm fully expecting cringey anime tropes to be front and center. I'm expecting them to detail some game mechanic that sends off huge red flags. I can't get excited for the game at all because I'm worried it will wind up like Fates and Awakening, since IS has made it clear that those games are more important to them than any other games in the franchise.

I don't understand why it would be a bait and switch. We've seen that there is very likely an avatar already, with a prominent role. What do you think is going to happen?

This is the "new" way and games like Echoes are an exception and not the rule. That's just the way it is (for now).

Edited by Tryhard

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7 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Quite frankly, I think both Awakening and Fates as a whole are bad Fire Emblem games(Conquest is great on the gameplay front, however). 

And I'll be the first... well, I'm too late in this thread to say I'm the first... But I'll willingly admit that a good chunk of my animosity towards the games comes from their popularity. 

When it comes to franchises like Final Fantasy, I can take some solace in knowing that I hate entries like 2 and 13 because I just think they're awful entries in the series. Downright repulsive a lot of the times. Those were two entries in a franchise that had always been popular, and there isn't much worry in my mind that they'll heavily influence the rest of the series. 

With Fire Emblem? Awakening saved the franchise, and Fates established it as one of Nintendo's biggest properties. This comes with an awful nagging in the back of my head. The more Fire Emblem gets promoted, the more I worry that it's going to be more like Awakening and Fates. Two games that don't represent what I once loved the series for. 

And little has been done nothing to quell this worry. Smash Brothers? More than half of the FE roster is represented by Awakening/Fates. Heroes? Almost every seasonal banner is something Awakening/Fates related, and so much of the rosters of those games are fully represented, while games I like/love in the franchise are flatout ignored outside of some key characters. Warriors? It was disappointing to learn that it was just going to be FE1, Awakening and Fates. It was even more disappointing to see that not even FE1 got that much love compared to Awakening and Fates in that game. 

I can't even get excited for Three Houses, because I'm fully expecting a bait and switch. I'm expecting the next trailer to be full of fanservice and Avatar worship. I'm fully expecting cringey anime tropes to be front and center. I'm expecting them to detail some game mechanic that sends off huge red flags. I can't get excited for the game at all because I'm worried it will wind up like Fates and Awakening, since IS has made it clear that those games are more important to them than any other games in the franchise. Do you know how much it sucks to not be able to get excited for a franchise that used to be one of your favorites? And how much it sucks to not be able to get excited about side projects because you're worried that things you don't like about the franchise will be shoved in your face? 

All that said, I'm fully in the "Hate the game, not the player" corner. I don't hate anyone for liking Awakening or Fates. People should be free to like what they like. I didn't even really want to post in this thread, since I figured it'd be a dumpster fire. 

Well then good sir, you and I are in the opposite camp then. Must be super depressing to have you mindset.

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As someone who started the series with Awakening (granted, I watched my older brother play both of the Tellius games as a kid, I was just too dumb at that point to understand them that's all), I could never hate it despite noticing it's many MANY flaws upon replaying it after playing through the older games. Fates though, yeah I hate it a lot.

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9 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

The quality of the old Fire Emblem stories is literally not a problem at all. There is a difference between trying to do something good and failing and trying to do something awful and succeeding. God help, I don't think Kaga's stories are actually any good. But he was trying to tell stories about war and the people caught up in it. He wasn't using his games and it's characters as vehicles for sucking the player's dick.

Do you not think Geneology of The Holy War has a good story and that it would have been presented better had the devopers had better hardware to work on?

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I will just say it, I feel like most of the negativity on this fandom comes from people who prefer the old games, and while I also consider myself to be someone that likes the old games more, I still can say that I like FE13/FE14 more than some of the old games.

 

And also why do people act like FE15 isn't a thing? Like so what if it was a remake? They still could have added fanservice and all of that if they wanted too, so I really don't think it's fair for people to already be complaining about FE16, and if anything, it's just annoying? 

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2 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

The quality of Fire Emblem stories is literally not a problem at all. There is a difference between trying to do something good and failing and trying to do something awful and succeeding. God help, I don't think Kaga's stories are actually any good. But he was trying to tell stories about war and the people in it. He wasn't using his games as a vehicle for sucking the player's dick.

If quality of story isn't a problem, then why did Awakening and Fates get so bashed for weak stories?  If I'm missing something here, please explain it.

Regardless of what Fire Emblem stories try to accomplish, I only ever hear people heavily praising the stories of the three games I just mentioned.  Besides, well-liked doesn't always equal good.  You and I both know this.

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

I mean, I'm not the biggest fan of Awakening and Fates, but that's because I hate the story and characters. It's true that it did revive the series, but some didn't like the direction it took, which can be understandable.

As far as those kind of people who say "Awakening and Fates are the Devil and so are you if you like it!!", don't pay attention to em. There idiots who represent a very small part of the fandom and don't deserve to be paid attention too.

Problem is, that "small part" is the fundamental Christians of our fanbase.

57 minutes ago, Manstein said:

Excuse me? Do you not agree this is what people like when you see the community? I do not think whether that is true or not is up to debate. There is a reason these things saved the franchise. Do you seriously think people look for a tactic game in Awakening or Fates?

That's odd, Conquest is pretty damn good when it comes to tactics.  And one of the best units?  Camilla.  I can write a nice paragraph or two on why she's so darn good. . .if you're actually interested in doing something other than shitting on the 3DS side of things.

43 minutes ago, Shakespeare1142 said:

honestly dude a good game is a good game if you like 3ds games cool, they're fun, but if you don't don't give people a hard time, and this is coming from a guy who prefers the gba games

'

Reason, empathy, and logic in this topic, banned! :P:

36 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Dude, all I did was addressing your claim of character designs not being much more exploitative "than what can be found in the rest of the series". That does not actually mean I believe it's a big deal. Yet you seem eager as dismissing any criticism of the franchise as being "upset about a little fanservice".

Are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY certain you're treating all the games equally, in terms of praise and criticism?

2 minutes ago, Manstein said:

Do you not think Geneology of The Holy War has a good story and that it would have been presented better had the devopers had better hardware to work on?

Nope.  Not by a long shot.  Awakening's early chapters were better IMO.

----

FE went from a simple story with very little characterization to an attempt at a deeper story with every character getting a distinct personality.  This means more writing, more complexity, and more things that can go wrong.  Combine that with the relatively impersonal forum banter, and it's quite easy to forget that there's people on the other end of the screen.  I've been fortunate enough to talk to people who aren't a part of the online FE community, some of who would fall under the "fanservice" group.  No, they're not some sort of degenerate who only sees things skin-deep - they're people.

In other words, some of you in the "screw the new FE camp" need to stop with the labeling - if you want to apply labels to everything, get a job at a grocery store.  Go out and physically talk to other people instead.

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