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Decerd

May I ask why some Fire Emblem fans act like Awakening and Fates were the worst thing to happen to the series?

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4 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Great Knights had that. Generals had that. Not 100% sure on Knights and Paladins, but I remember Cavaliers were wearing bloomers or something along those lines.

Female paladins in Awakening definitely didn't wear pants. They had those cloth things that kind of wrapped around the lower parts of the leg, but no pants. Male paladins had pants.

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9 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Female paladins in Awakening definitely didn't wear pants. They had those cloth things that kind of wrapped around the lower parts of the leg, but no pants. Male paladins had pants.

Yeah, I know. And they had a window in the back to see the undergarments. Probably in the front to, but that's harder to check. But they do not wear thongs, like the Great Knights and Generals do, so it's not quite as obnoxious... though it most certainly emphasis how desperate this all is, just cutting a hole in the cloth like that.

And this is the same game that famously was unable to render enough polygons for feet.

Edit: Also unprompted Knights actually do wear tights instead of thongs.. I admit, I didn't expect that.

Edited by BrightBow

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5 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Female paladins in Awakening definitely didn't wear pants. They had those cloth things that kind of wrapped around the lower parts of the leg, but no pants. Male paladins had pants.

IIRC, knights, generals and great knights all had pants for both (so did bow knights).Troubadours and valkyries had pants too. Cavaliers, paladins, dark knights and wyvern classes (sans griffon rider I think?) didn't. Same with pegs but that's the case for like 90% of the series.

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I find the whole hatedom for the new style somewhat dramatic and overblown but its actually very easy to understand and with a lot of points its actually pretty justified to be critical of the new games. 

Part of the reason is that the old fans just feel threatened. Awakening's huge success ensured that the new fans would have the priority of the devs since they bring in more money. The old fans and what they liked are suddenly less important and can be safely ignored. This implication isn't really helped by side games like Heroes and Warriors showing a great amount of bias for the newer games and in Warriors case even making it clear that the old fans aren't really welcome at the party. 

Another part of the reason is that the new style has an image problem and that this is starting to negatively affect the games. Things like fanservice, pairing, loli's and very Japanese tropes suddenly became very important, but the problem is that these things are very divisive. If you are not part of the intended audience  there is a large chance that you're either annoyed or downright embarrassed by these tropes. This is especially the case with Fates where they brought in incredibly obscure Japanese tropes like Skinship or Soleil. Fates proven the detractors of these tropes right by showing exactly what happens when you let the fanservice go out of control in which case you got an army of (technically adult) children to romance, a character based on the idea that a same sex orientation is just a silly phase you're supposed to grow out of and having the premise of the plot replaced by pseudo incest pairings. 

What doesn't help the new games is that there are additional failings that might be blamed on the new direction. I personally see the bad stories of Fates and Awakening as being unfortunate side effects of their development cycle rather than solely the fault of the new style but a lot of fans saw the quality of the stories decrease drastically at the same time as the new style was introduced. Naturally they connect these two development and they are not entirely wrong. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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7 minutes ago, ΔZZ said:

IIRC, knights, generals and great knights all had pants for both (so did bow knights).Troubadours and valkyries had pants too. Cavaliers, paladins, dark knights and wyvern classes (sans griffon rider I think?) didn't. Same with pegs but that's the case for like 90% of the series.

Female Generals and Great Knights are absolutely not wearing pants. They wear thongs. Just turn your Avatar into one of those classes and watch some cutscenes, if you find this hard to notice.

Edited by BrightBow

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4 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Female Generals and Great Knights are absolutely not wearing pants. They wear thongs. Just turn your Avatar into one of those classes and watch some cutscenes, if you find this hard to notice.

In FEA they wear pants.

Knight

General

Great Knight

If you're talking about Fates, then yeah they don't, but in Awakening they definitely do.

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3 minutes ago, ΔZZ said:

In FEA they wear pants.

Knight

General

Great Knight

If you're talking about Fates, then yeah they don't, but in Awakening they definitely do.

Those are all front shots. I just said how they all have a window in the back that exposes their undergarments.

Edited by BrightBow

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1 minute ago, Shakespeare1142 said:

These are a fucking goldmine! He's like "Hey bro i was just over to see if I could borrow your fooseball table"

Image result for Fire Emblem 1 artwork

"What do you think horse, should we give it to him?"

"Nay"

"Sorry bro, no can do. My horse wants to use it"

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15 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I find the whole hatedom for the new style somewhat dramatic and overblown but its actually very easy to understand and with a lot of points its actually pretty justified to be critical of the new games. 

Part of the reason is that the old fans just feel threatened. Awakening's huge success ensured that the new fans would have the priority of the devs since they bring in more money. The old fans and what they liked are suddenly less important and can be safely ignored. This implication isn't really helped by side games like Heroes and Warriors showing a great amount of bias for the newer games and in Warriors case even making it clear that the old fans aren't really welcome at the party. 

Another part of the reason is that the new style has an image problem and that this is starting to negatively affect the games. Things like fanservice, pairing, loli's and very Japanese tropes suddenly became very important, but the problem is that these things are very divisive. If you are not part of the intended audience  there is a large chance that you're either annoyed or downright embarrassed by these tropes. This is especially the case with Fates where they brought in incredibly obscure Japanese tropes like Skinship or Soleil. Fates proven the detractors of these tropes right by showing exactly what happens when you let the fanservice go out of control in which case you got an army of (technically adult) children to romance, a character based on the idea that a same sex orientation is just a silly phase you're supposed to grow out of and having the premise of the plot replaced by pseudo incest pairings. 

What doesn't help the new games is that there are additional failings that might be blamed on the new direction. I personally see the bad stories of Fates and Awakening as being unfortunate side effects of their development cycle rather than solely the fault of the new style but a lot of fans saw the quality of the stories decrease drastically at the same time as the new style was introduced. Naturally they connect these two development and they are not entirely wrong. 

never have I agreed with someone more about this issue. Though I don't think "japanese tropes" is the right term here. I mean in the case of soleil it is but in terms of the face petting that's more otaku pandering nonsense than nothing. Even japan looks down on those kinds of people. Honestly my main issue with the direction fates took is that IS failed to understand what made awakening so compelling to begin with. Or at the very least didn't understand why those things worked. 

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While I understand that Awakening and Fates are flawed, that's not gonna stop me from loving them. Awakening will always be special to me as the game that introduced me to the franchise and my baby children Owain and Morgan but I digress. Having played both "eras" of the series at this point, I'm pretty confident in saying that everyone bashing the newer games are just blowing their flaws out of proportion (a bit less so with fates, as it was kinda butchered in localization). You've just gotta pick your battles, as every fanbase has their own groups that like to over-exaggerate their beef with certain parts of the series they love.

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28 minutes ago, Shakespeare1142 said:

Did we just become best friends?

I think we did.

Image result for FE2 artwork

Even closer than these chums

Edited by DarthR0xas

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2 minutes ago, DarthR0xas said:

I think we did.

Image result for FE2 artwork

Even closer than these chums

it looks like the're roommates in an NBC sitcom queue song!  So no one told you life was gonna be this way! I'll be there for you when the rain starts to pour! Stop fucking whining ross your a stupid whore! it's like this song is always stuck in your fucking ear!

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10 minutes ago, Shakespeare1142 said:

it looks like the're roommates in an NBC sitcom queue song!  So no one told you life was gonna be this way! I'll be there for you when the rain starts to pour! Stop fucking whining ross your a stupid whore! it's like this song is always stuck in your fucking ear!

The only whore here is Roger

latest?cb=20120429012607

Mmm Roger. This has gotten completely off topic.

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1 minute ago, Shakespeare1142 said:

oh you naughty boy! he's got some business going on man, he's got his hands in the cookie jar

Yeah, he's in serious trouble because you know whose cookie jar this unit's hand is in?

Image result for gharnef fire emblem 1

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3 minutes ago, DarthR0xas said:

Yeah, he's in serious trouble because you know whose cookie jar this unit's hand is in?

Image result for gharnef fire emblem 1

"Roger my prince! I have some treats for you! all you have to do is put your hand in my spooky edgelord cloak...mmmm...yeas roger

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5 hours ago, Decerd said:

I don't understand why some people act like Awakening and Fates are the devil's products and they ruined everything about Fire Emblem. If it weren't for Awakening, this series would be dead alongside the likes of Advance Wars, F-Zero, Earthbound, and Golden Sun, and while Fates's storytelling isn't superb, I think it's gameplay and characters are solid. I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but were Awakening and Fates really that bad to them?

there's some people who do not like Awakening/Fates entirely for the following reasons:

- too much fanservice;

- unnecessary lolicons;

- storytelling.

 

now, is the gameplay of Awakening/Fates solid? you bet it is.

it's been also rebalanced in Fates, wich was a step forward in my opinion considering some new features that were introduced back at the time.

thing is, if they removed at least lolis and fanservice from the games, things could have been probably different. Echoes managed to did it right for the most, along with its storytelling. that's why it got praised by many fans as a fine remake.

however, storytelling is always subjective. you may like it or not, but overall they could have done a better job with Awakening/Fates( especially without involving time travel two times in a row, since usually anything related to that ends up screwing any kind of story with confusion and a loss of credibility ).

 

long story short: gameplay is fine. story and characters...could have been better.

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I don't think Awakening and Fates are the worst things to happen to Fire Emblem, I actually only have Fates, and I just play it for the gameplay, but I do believe that Fates' story is kinda weak, and that there could've been way less fanservice. Like, what is with all the leg/butt/thigh windows? And don't get me started on Raider weapons! Why couldn't they have just damaged the armour instead, like this:

IMG_20181207_142720.png

I swear that would've looked a whole lot better. Also, IS really could've handled the supports a lot better, even treating S Supports like opposite-gender A+ supports and have the children come from similar methods to Awakening's child units (i.e. coming from the future) or maybe even using methods similar to the creation of Bond Units.

As for plot, what is with this Valla curse? The only reason it's there is to prevent spoilers and extend the plot! Why is it in Conquest that the Avatar decides to place themselves at the mercy of the bad guys and almost let them succeed just to show "This is their true nature!" when everyone probably already knows, as shown in Birthright (with the exception of the Nohrian soldiers and parts of the royal family cough Xander cough).

There's a whole lot of things I could go on about, but that doesn't make Fates OR Awakening demon spawn. Despite everything, those games have their good points, and they SHOULD be seen regardless.

Edited by WeAreNewcastle1053
So I can remove attachments.

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I have a bone to pick about calling Awakening's gameplay "Alright". I think it might be the most fundamentally janky FE since Genealogy.

It's not balanced in the slightest, and it has probably the worst map design since FE2. Most maps are some variation of a flat plane, and you just need to kill everything on the map. Occasionally they put a wall in your way, but it's not in any thoughtful way that might force you to deal with a different playstyle by bottle necking or anything. Busted skills dominate the game, and the crazy amount of reclassing seemingly just exists to encourage you to steam roll the game with the strongest skills and weapon combos. And then there's one of the biggest focal points of Awakening's gameplay, and boy... Pair-up is clearly not a fleshed out mechanic in Awakening, and just breaks the balance in your favor.

Until Lunatic and Lunatic+ where the game just cheats. There's no way around it, the game cheats to give you a challenge, giving enemies skills you can't have and forged weapons you can't forge. And Hard Mode is pretty damn easy, so the jump to Lunatic is straight up unreasonable, where the game is just tossing end-game enemies at you in the third chapter. Points for making me have to actually adjust my playstyle. Points off for breaking the game to do it.

It feels like it went through little QA/playtesting. There was definitely a workable foundation with Awakening, which the vast amounts of gameplay refinements Fates had can attest to, but Awakening itself is pretty rough in terms of how the gameplay feels and how the game is paced.

Edited by Slumber

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15 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I have a bone to pick about calling Awakening's gameplay "Alright". I think it might be the most fundamentally janky FE since Genealogy.

It's not balanced in the slightest, and it has probably the worst map design since FE2. Most maps are some variation of a flat plane, and you just need to kill everything on the map. Occasionally they put a wall in your way, but it's not in any thoughtful way that might force you to deal with a different playstyle by bottle necking or anything. Busted skills dominate the game, and the crazy amount of reclassing seemingly just exists to encourage you to steam roll the game with the strongest skills and weapon combos. And then there's one of the biggest focal points of Awakening's gameplay, and boy. Pair-up is clearly not a fleshed out mechanic in Awakening, and just breaks the balance in your favor.

Until Lunatic and Lunatic+ where the game just cheats. There's no way around it, the game cheats to give you a challenge, giving enemies skills you can have and forged weapons you can't forge. And Hard Mode is pretty damn easy, so the jump to Lunatic is straight up unreasonable, where the game is just tossing end-game enemies at you in the third chapter. Points for making me have to actually adjust my playstyle. Points off for breaking the game to do it.

It feels like it went through little QA/playtesting. There was definitely a workable foundation with Awakening, which the vast amounts of gameplay refinements Fates had can attest to, but Awakening itself is pretty rough in terms of how the gameplay feels and how the game is paced.

especially without permadeath, i think it brings to the forefront some of awakenings design problems

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I don't hate Fates/Awakening. Fanservice has never been my favorite thing but it's not like they're running around naked so I can excuse... most of it. The Camilla cutscene still kinda creeps me out though xD

My biggest issue with it is I just don't find their stories to be engaging at all. It's really more personal than just straight up not liking them. I played them once and that's it and they were fun that one time but I have no desire to play them again. Unlike RD which I've played probably 10 times now.

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I'm not a fan of Awakening or Fates. Awakening even less so. And for the reasons people already pointed out. Fanservice went too far, the stories are awful, the characters are too gimmicky/one-note for the most part, etc. And in the case of Awakening, time-travel shenanigans, which I pretty much always hate. Fates also shoved in Awakening characters where they didn't belong and the implementation of the kids is just...why did they think baby realms were a good idea at all?

However, I can admit both had some things I liked. Pair-up and My Castle are the best new features since RD's ledge mechanics and third tier classes imo. I'd like to see them again.

And of course, I absolutely love Frederick and consider him the diamond in the rough. Though I also really like Ryoma, Silas, and Kaze. But that doesn't compare with the love I have for Freddy. I think he was surprisingly an absolute brilliant character among a sea of blah.

So I agree with anyone saying that some fans just focus way too much on the negative. Yeah, I don't think Awakening or Fates are good games. But I don't think they're downright terrible either and I can appreciate that Awakening rescued my favorite franchise from extinction.

 

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