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May I ask why some Fire Emblem fans act like Awakening and Fates were the worst thing to happen to the series?


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1 hour ago, Pengaius said:

It's  just that story wise Awakening is a bit weak and some of its characters are very bland for the amount of supports they get or are just fanservicey, Fates is just an absolute wreck, having a garbage story three times really one note characters who just have a personality quirk that is done to death (Arthur's bad luck while funny is overused, and setsuna falls into a trap in all of her supports) so a lot of the supports are very similar and the child characters feel lumped in as there only really in the game to justify S-supports. 

Gameplaywise the games are either way to easy in all their modes or are Awakening Lunatic+ BS

Arthur is actually somewhat unique among the gimmick character because he has two gimmicks rather than one. He has his bad luck of course but he's also a very vocal superhero. 

I think Fates gets a bit too much flack for its gimmick character. Its often dismissed as a cast full of gimmick characters but that's not entirely true. I'd say it even has more proper characters than Awakening did. Characters like Setsuna Arthur and Keaton might be 100% gimmick but then you also got people like Takumi, Oboro, Saizo, Forrest, Siegbert and Shiro who are actual characters. Fates has a nice balance between these sorts of characters but I guess the gimmicks themselves tend to be so extreme that they stick into people's minds more than those who don't have a gimmick. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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6 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Arthur is actually somewhat unique among the gimmick character because he has two gimmicks rather than one. He has his bad luck of course but he's also a very vocal superhero. 

I think Awakening gets a bit too much flack for its gimmick character. Its often dismissed as a cast full of gimmick characters but that's not entirely true. I'd say it even has more proper characters than Awakening did. Characters like Setsuna Arthur and Keaton might be 100% gimmick but then you also got people like Takumi, Oboro, Saizo, Forrest, Siegbert and Shiro who are actual characters. Fates has a nice balance between these sorts of characters but I guess the gimmicks themselves tend to be so extreme that they stick into people's minds more than those who don't have a gimmick. 

To be honest, while I like character's like Oboro and Saizo not being gimmicky, I'm of the opinion there should  be NO gimmick characters at all. More light hearted ones? Sure! But no characters that are just solely there for laughs is what I mean.

No fire emblem has managed this yet so far imo

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33 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

To be honest, while I like character's like Oboro and Saizo not being gimmicky, I'm of the opinion there should  be NO gimmick characters at all. More light hearted ones? Sure! But no characters that are just solely there for laughs is what I mean.

No fire emblem has managed this yet so far imo

I don't think many Fire Emblem characters went with absolutely zero gimmick characters. Even the much praised Tellius games still had Ilyana who's at about Setsuna's level with her gimmick. 

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58 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Arthur is actually somewhat unique among the gimmick character because he has two gimmicks rather than one. He has his bad luck of course but he's also a very vocal superhero. 

I think Fates gets a bit too much flack for its gimmick character. Its often dismissed as a cast full of gimmick characters but that's not entirely true. I'd say it even has more proper characters than Awakening did. Characters like Setsuna Arthur and Keaton might be 100% gimmick but then you also got people like Takumi, Oboro, Saizo, Forrest, Siegbert and Shiro who are actual characters. Fates has a nice balance between these sorts of characters but I guess the gimmicks themselves tend to be so extreme that they stick into people's minds more than those who don't have a gimmick. 

This is something I've always tried to acknowledge. 

Fates has higher highs and lower lowers than Awakening with its cast. Fates does a far better job at turning gimmicks into actual characters, and there's generally far better reasoning behind why each character is the way they are. It's also generally a bit easier to get a grasp on who each character is without having to dig through 50 support chains. 

But then you have Peri and Camilla, so ya know. 

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1 hour ago, Dinar87 said:

To be honest, while I like character's like Oboro and Saizo not being gimmicky, I'm of the opinion there should  be NO gimmick characters at all. More light hearted ones? Sure! But no characters that are just solely there for laughs is what I mean.

No fire emblem has managed this yet so far imo

I don't think what you're asking for is even possible at all. Characters are defined by their traits, and one could argue that every trait is in some form a gimmick.

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12 minutes ago, Jave said:

I don't think what you're asking for is even possible at all. Characters are defined by their traits, and one could argue that every trait is in some form a gimmick.

I think what Dinar is getting at is that we don't want characters to be limited to one trait, or one gimmick. Setsuna is sleepy, and falls into traps, and that's it. If she had some underlying factors that come out and make her more than a person who falls into traps then she'd generally be better. Sure, there can be one note characters, but if they exist at least have their one note be interesting and be able to interact with other characters in unique and character advancing ways.

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I can only speak for Awakening, as it's the only game of the two that I've played, but despite believing that the game is over-criticized, it really is a love-it or-hate-it kind of game.

Storywise, the plot does its job, but little more. You have a reason for why you're engaging in each battle, the way time travel time works in the game is explained clearly and doesn't dwell on it any more than it needs to, and the moments where the player is "praised" are spaced out and have fair reasoning for doing so. Other than that, though, it's just an overall okay plot. It's something worth going through once or twice, and then you'll probably be skipping it every other time (unless reclassing shenanigans occur and make the cutscenes even more entertaining). There are a lot of missed opportunity with the story, and the lack of world building makes it uninteresting to return to, but whether that's simply water under the bridge or an actual negative will depend on the person.

Something I am surprised that hasn't been brought up much about the characters in the game is that IS intentionally went the "they appear to be one dimensional tropes at first, but in truth are actually three-dimensional characters" route with them. Considering that this tactic has worked efficiently in other games and media, I do not blame them for using it. The difference being that this was on a larger scale, and the execution was a double-edged sword.

On the one hand, it makes it rewarding to unlock supports of even average quality, as the player gets to see a character gain more depth than their initial "gimmick" would imply existed, giving them incentive to unlock more supports to see all sides of them. On the other hand, it means that if the player has a difficult time using a certain unit or class, they're stuck with a questionable first impression, and have to go to other sources if they want to see whether or not a character has anything more to them. Considering that people still think that the Shephards forget Kellam exists or that the joke about Libra looking like a female is the only thing about him, despite supports showing otherwise, reveals how this approach can backfire.

As for the actual quality of supports, while the overall quality is still impressive considering the sheer amount of conversations they had to write, it is very easy to jump from finding a hidden gem to reading something that was probably complied in five minutes and no one bothered to improve it afterwards. While I personally find that the good outnumbers the bad, it will obviously range from person to person where the whole package falls in the series as a whole, and first impressions do have an impact, so seeing more of the gems or the crap early on can affect someones opinion of the writing quality. It does not help that S-Supports range the greatest in quality, and are inherently suggestive, meaning that what could be a believable romance to one person could be seen as completely random to another, making it difficult to determine their overall quality.

As for the gameplay itself, the brokenness is the simple "make it or break it" factor of whether or not one loves, hates, or is mixed on the game. You'll either find it enjoyable for how in-depth the process of snapping the game in half can be, find it something that removes all challenge and thus enjoyment one could get out of a strategy game, or it's a leading factor for the "flawed, but fun" mindset some people have towards Awakening. This is before even going in-depth with the individual mechanics that lead to the brokenness, such as pair-up, reclassing, the child mechanics, etc.

Yet one of Awakenings biggest strengths is the freedom the player is given to either use or ignore these mechanics. Nothing is forcing the player to use pair-up to beat the game. The child units are completely optional, and heck, so is even accepting S-Supports in the first place. The game is very friendly towards challenge runs, and rarely punishes the player for playing the game however they wish. Again, it will range from person to person about how much fun and mileage they will get out of this, leading into it's "love-it or hate it" status.

If there is something I definitely want to call bullcrap on, though, is that "shipping and fanservice" are the main reasons people enjoy the game. I heavily disagree, as S-Supports and the child mechanic can be seen as just that: a mechanic. I could care little, if at all, about the romantic chemistry two characters have, yet experimenting with which characters make the best children is incentive enough to test out a new pairing. The fact that you naturally unlock supports for doing so is an added bonus. Add in the mechanic that that a character can only have one S-Support per game and the factor of having to balance the gameplay synergy two characters have during gameplay while also trying to make sure that they will produce a solid child unit comes into play. This adds, rather than detracts, to the gameplay, and puts the player in an interesting scenario of strategy vs tactics.

As for fanservice, considering that most games in general don't offer the player the choice to add to or remove it at all, Awakening is a not a special case at all in that area. Besides, Fire Emblem has always had fanservice to ranging degrees in every single game, so this is nothing new. Would it have been nice to have given the player the option to give several characters more modest clothing? Of course, but then again, you could say that about hundreds, if not thousands, of other games. Are there egregious examples of fanservice in the game? Nowi's costume shouldn't exist at all, and the only reason I don't complain more about Panne not wearing pants is because it's in-character for her not to know about human customs concerning modestly. However, to say that people bought the game off just because they heard that dark mages were wearing bikinis or that female cavaliers weren't wearing pants is a gross insult to the people that enjoy the game despite those elements and would gladly remove them if given the chance.

TLDR: Awakenings is a love-it-or-hate-it kind of game.Its story is only okay, the handling of the characters is a double-edged sword, the gameplay is reliant on how much one can stand or get behind the brokeness and freedom the game offers, and saying that people only like the game because of shipping and fanservice are ignoring that the former can be seen as simply another gameplay mechanic and Fire Emblem has always had the latter.

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17 minutes ago, Jave said:

I don't think what you're asking for is even possible at all. Characters are defined by their traits, and one could argue that every trait is in some form a gimmick.

Yes, but think about your real life interactions. 

Imagine you go to the grocery store. You help a little old lady grab a can of beans from the top shelf, and she says "Thank you, I love killing animals."

You'd probably be pretty freaked out.

Then you go to the cash register, and the cashier gives you your change, and then says "I like daydreaming about my male co-workers hooking up." 

Again, you'd probably be pretty freaked out. 

And then you step out, and a random stranger comes up to you and asks you "Do you know where I can find some fresh blood?" 

I think most people would go bonkers if they had to live in Awakening or Fates, just because of how upfront and relentless units are with their gimmicks. 

There are definitely ways to write a colorful cast of characters without characters needing to repeat similar lines of dialogue over, and over, and over again. 

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5 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Yes, but think about your real life interactions. 

Imagine you go to the grocery store. You help a little old lady grab a can of beans from the top shelf, and she says "Thank you, I love killing animals."

You'd probably be pretty freaked out.

Then you go to the cash register, and the cashier gives you your change, and then says "I like daydreaming about my male co-workers hooking up." 

Again, you'd probably be pretty freaked out. 

And then you step out, and a random stranger comes up to you and asks you "Do you know where I can find some fresh blood?" 

I think most people would go bonkers if they had to live in Awakening or Fates, just because of how upfront and relentless units are with their gimmicks. 

There are definitely ways to write a colorful cast of characters without characters needing to repeat similar lines of dialogue over, and over, and over again. 

I'm not a fan of this comparison at all, mainly because I find the idea of comparing human interaction in a fantasy world to that of real life a pretty bad one. Based on that, I'd probably go bonkers living in ANY fantasy universe. (The Simpsons did an episode about that, one of my all-time favorites)

The examples you mention are also rather extreme. The second quote you mention refers to Nina I'm sure, but I definitely don't recall her being so upfront with her fantasies. She's incredibly shy about it and embarrassed when others find out, and usually she gets caught in the act before she outright says it. (Though I do wish they would have fleshed out her Robin Hood-esque persona from her paralogue more than her other trait, but what can you do).

For the record, I don't think Awakening and Fates are exempt of criticism, but I definitely don't think they deserve the bad rep some people give them. I can agree with a lot of things those games did wrong, but I also feel some people go out of their way to make those games look terrible.

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1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't think many Fire Emblem characters went with absolutely zero gimmick characters. Even the much praised Tellius games still had Ilyana who's at about Setsuna's level with her gimmick. 

I actually don't dislike that about Tellius because in the Tellius games the majority of the characters aren't gimmick characters. I even like gimmick characters in Tellius because they're not the norm in those games and that can make them quite amusing when they do show up. 

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25 minutes ago, Jave said:

I'm not a fan of this comparison at all, mainly because I find the idea of comparing human interaction in a fantasy world to that of real life a pretty bad one. Based on that, I'd probably go bonkers living in ANY fantasy universe. (The Simpsons did an episode about that, one of my all-time favorites)

The examples you mention are also rather extreme. The second quote you mention refers to Nina I'm sure, but I definitely don't recall her being so upfront with her fantasies. She's incredibly shy about it and embarrassed when others find out, and usually she gets caught in the act before she outright says it. (Though I do wish they would have fleshed out her Robin Hood-esque persona from her paralogue more than her other trait, but what can you do).

For the record, I don't think Awakening and Fates are exempt of criticism, but I definitely don't think they deserve the bad rep some people give them. I can agree with a lot of things those games did wrong, but I also feel some people go out of their way to make those games look terrible.

There are other franchises that do character development better than Awakening and Fates do. There are sacrifices that need to be made in a lot of them, like with say, the Suikoden games, which has rosters comparable to Fire Emblem, but those games manage to shine a larger spotlight on more characters than FE does, and integrates them into the plot more often.

On top of this, it'd be a better argument if Fire Emblem was ALWAYS like Fates and Awakening... but it wasn't. FE7 to FE9 managed to give you plenty of pretty rounded characters without relying on them shouting character quirks at you. The point of the analogy I made it to point out how insane the characters from Fates and Awakening come off when you take a step back. I really don't think FE7, 8 or 9's cast would drive people insane like how Fates' and Awakening's casts would. You might roll your eyes at FE7 Karel, get annoyed by Joshua's constant reliance on sleight of hand to talk to people, and Ilyana's food obsession would probably baffle you, but these are more the exception than the rule in these casts. Going to the grocery store probably wouldn't be a total nightmare in these games.

I was definitely being more vocal with Nina's gimmick, but it's very much the center of a lot of her conversations. She's not straight up saying "I dream about gay fanfiction between my comrades", but it's largely what a lot of her support convos and random snippets of dialogue focus on, and it's what the people talking to her tend to take away.

Edited by Slumber
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33 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Yes, but think about your real life interactions. 

Imagine you go to the grocery store. You help a little old lady grab a can of beans from the top shelf, and she says "Thank you, I love killing animals."

You'd probably be pretty freaked out.

Then you go to the cash register, and the cashier gives you your change, and then says "I like daydreaming about my male co-workers hooking up." 

Again, you'd probably be pretty freaked out. 

And then you step out, and a random stranger comes up to you and asks you "Do you know where I can find some fresh blood?" 

I think most people would go bonkers if they had to live in Awakening or Fates, just because of how upfront and relentless units are with their gimmicks. 

There are definitely ways to write a colorful cast of characters without characters needing to repeat similar lines of dialogue over, and over, and over again. 

I believe this to be an over exaggeration. For one, within the context of these characters being introduced, it is for the most part natural and organic. It shows off an explicit personality trait the character has in a relatively organic way. I mean take sully and virion's introduction for example. She shows up asks what's going on and decides to lend her aid. This is followed by virion who based on the dialogue we can assume was somewhere nearby and chased after sully because "pretty girl". Their interaction cue's us in on their most prominent character traits. Sully is tomboy-ish and won't take shit from anyone and virion is a flirt. It may be a little contrived but for the most part it makes sense within the context of both their characters and the situation. The only times where I feel it's not done as 'smoothly' is with characters like vaike, henry, peri, arthur, and to a lesser degree effie. In the case of vaike and henry well their characters kind of require their personalities to be shoved in your face cause that's the point of their characters and in the context of their introductions it makes sense. In the case of peri and arthur. I agree it's just sort of shoved in your face for no reason. However overall I don't see where you're coming from. 

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28 minutes ago, Jave said:

I'm not a fan of this comparison at all, mainly because I find the idea of comparing human interaction in a fantasy world to that of real life a pretty bad one. Based on that, I'd probably go bonkers living in ANY fantasy universe. (The Simpsons did an episode about that, one of my all-time favorites)

The examples you mention are also rather extreme. The second quote you mention refers to Nina I'm sure, but I definitely don't recall her being so upfront with her fantasies. She's incredibly shy about it and embarrassed when others find out, and usually she gets caught in the act before she outright says it. (Though I do wish they would have fleshed out her Robin Hood-esque persona from her paralogue more than her other trait, but what can you do).

For the record, I don't think Awakening and Fates are exempt of criticism, but I definitely don't think they deserve the bad rep some people give them. I can agree with a lot of things those games did wrong, but I also feel some people go out of their way to make those games look terrible.

Just because it's a fantasy universe, doesn't mean we throw realism completely out the window. There can be a balance, and I feel the balance with awakening and fates is off to me

Also, there may be a "bad rep" from some fans towards awakening and fates, but which franchises got most of the representation in games like Warriors even again?

Edited by Dinar87
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4 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

They're not bad games, but *surely* you can at least understand why some of us don't like them? It feels insulting to be honest that newer fans KEEP ASKING over and over again, "why do people hate this" and ignore when others tell them why they hate those games. Almost like...it's just a rhetorical question meant to attack people with the views of not liking fates and awakening.

Also news flash, awakening may of saved the series, but that fact doesn't make it immune to any criticism either...which a lot of people are acting like it does. I don't hate it when people like the newer games...but the same can't be said for when I repeatedly see newer fans bashing on older fans like this, as some sort of "revenge against elitists" kind of thing.


I'm trying to not start conflicts within the fanbase, but if people like OP aren't helping with their hyperbole (awakening and fates are apparently "the devil's products" to those who don't like them) and are just annoying more people, rather than genuinely starting any kind of reasonable discussion about what people like, then it just gets on my nerves. OP even says they understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinions...but then, why treat it as if older fans DESPISE the newer games then, rather than simply not liking them?

If your goal is not to start a conflict, you're failing badly.

There's two types of opinions in this thread - people who express their own dislike, and people who start attacking some group of people.  The latter is not cool.  In this case, the line I bolded is where you started lashing out at a group of people.

It's okay for people to ask why others think a certain way, to a degree.  It's not okay to put others down.

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

The relation of the player and characters: One of the biggest derailments of the series identity, to me, is the inclusion of a playable avatar. The Avatar first came about in Blazing Sword but it was very inconsequential. You had a few lines of dialogue directed at you and a few images of Lyn looking your way, but for the most part, it didn't matter. The avatar was not a person who mattered, certainly not more than the other characters did to each other.  The purpose of the cast was not to appeal to you. It was not to make you lust over them and choose a "waifu". They existed to tell a story. I would argue that once a playable avatar came about (starting in FE12 but fully realized in FE13) the story telling focused on making YOU, the player feel special, and characters were crafted less for the sake of themselves, but rather to appeal to certain tastes. If you could latch on to players with their favorite tropes, make players lust after them, then you can pull in a huge amount of players who are into that sort of thing. It's not like people couldn't do this with earlier titles but it really cranks it up to eleven when YOU are in the game, and you have characters confessing their love for YOU, in first person. But this writing direction has more sinister effect on the story. It was not so bad in Awakening, and I actually like Robin as a character, but Fates was ruined by player worship. Every significant character was required to love you and if they didn't, they were unquestionably evil. You're the chosen one, you're a dragon (not that it even matters), you're the son of the big bad, a legendary sword flies into your hand. In Conquest, all of the Hoshidans who have every right to hate your guts forgive you and apologize to you because that's the only way they can be considered sympathetic. It's sickening.

I'm not sure if you played FE12, but if you haven't, I suggest avoiding it.  Not only did it have the avatar worship thing, it also rewrote Marth to fit that narrative. . .and I'm not sure whether I find Fates' handling of Corrin more offensive, or that.

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

But then you have Peri and Camilla, so ya know. 

Treat Peri as a character that exists to give Nohr some worldbuilding, and she becomes a lot better.  Camilla requires reading through a ton of supports, but she has some stellar ones.

53 minutes ago, DarthR0xas said:

I think what Dinar is getting at is that we don't want characters to be limited to one trait, or one gimmick. Setsuna is sleepy, and falls into traps, and that's it. If she had some underlying factors that come out and make her more than a person who falls into traps then she'd generally be better. Sure, there can be one note characters, but if they exist at least have their one note be interesting and be able to interact with other characters in unique and character advancing ways.

I'd say the vast majority of the cast (Setsuna included) do have other traits, but it requires a lot of digging (in this case, check her support chain with Subaki).

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

On top of this, it'd be a better argument if Fire Emblem was ALWAYS like Fates and Awakening... but it wasn't. FE7 to FE9 managed to give you plenty of pretty rounded characters without relying on them shouting character quirks at you. The point of the analogy I made it to point out how insane the characters from Fates and Awakening come off when you take a step back. I really don't think FE7, 8 or 9's cast would drive people insane like how Fates' and Awakening's casts would. You might roll your eyes at FE7 Karel, get annoyed by Joshua's constant reliance on sleight of hand to talk to people, and Ilyana's food obsession would probably baffle you, but these are more the exception than the rule in these casts.

The gimmicks have been around since the GBA days, and they were irritating then, too (there's a reason why I despise Serra).  If you're going to hate the 3DS era for them, at least acknowledge that the earlier games were guilty of this as well.

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I think the issue with some fans (such as myself) is that Awakening and Fates lowered the bar for the series in terms of storytelling and characterization. It really feels like these two games sought to mimic FE’s contemporaries (Tales of Series and Final Fantasy) in terms of style and tone to gain relevancy in a dire time for the series. While this gambit worked in getting the series high sales figures and new fans, in the long run the core ethos of the series has suffered as a result. The FE games seem to no longer be war epics dealing with the themes of fellowship and tragedy, but instead more interested in waifu culture and anime cliches.

Edited by Wraith
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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It's not okay to put others down.

Which is what you and the original poster are doing for us older fans. Language such as us older fans treating awakening and fates as "the devil's products" are quite hyperbolic, but it's interesting you didn't seem to care about such language.

Edited by Dinar87
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Just now, Dinar87 said:

Which is what you and the original poster are doing for us older fans

If you think I'm putting you down, you need to readjust how you see the world.  Keep in mind this saying: "If you run into one jerk, you ran into a jerk.  If everyone around you is a jerk, it's time to re-evaluate yourself".

And when did you start playing, by chance?

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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If you think I'm putting you down, you need to readjust how you see the world.  Keep in mind this saying: "If you run into one jerk, you ran into a jerk.  If everyone around you is a jerk, it's time to re-evaluate yourself".

And when did you start playing, by chance?

I started with awakening, decided to see if path of radiance and radiance dawn were as good as awakening, and found myself loving them far more than I ever imagined.

It just feels so unfair that IS doesn't just re-release the older games so everyone can decide for themselves.

But if I'm just causing more trouble I'll go away for right now at least. Though I do still feel strongly about all this.

Edited by Dinar87
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4 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

Which is what you and the original poster are doing for us older fans. Language such as us older fans treating awakening and fates as "the devil's products" are quite hyperbolic, but it's interesting you didn't seem to care about such language.

I don't think you're being in any ways helpful by keeping up the divide in the fandom by the constant mention of "older fans".

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23 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

Which is what you and the original poster are doing for us older fans

I mean the title of the thread is "May I ask why SOME Fire Emblem fans act like Awakening and Fates were the worst thing to happen to the series?"  not all meaning he was really only targeting those kinds of people in particular. and those people are bad eggs let me tell you.

Also speaking of the divide of the fanbase. You could actually make a fire emblem plot out of this either one for one or metaphorically. Either way if someone were to do it, I'd definitely play it. 

Edit: holy shit I just realized that's exactly what fates is just told through the viewpoint of IS and in the most incompetent way possible.

 

Edited by Otts486
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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Treat Peri as a character that exists to give Nohr some worldbuilding, and she becomes a lot better.  Camilla requires reading through a ton of supports, but she has some stellar ones.

But if you do that, you learn that Peri's whole reason for killing is that she's a spoiled noble... and her parents just didn't bother to teach her that it's bad.

If she was a poor Nohr girl who had to kill to get by and then learned that she enjoyed killing, that'd be one thing. But there's not much indication that outside of the sheer desperation that Nohr is such an amoral country that the nobility are as evil is (New)Garon and people like Hans. And that latter thing is a new incident. And most people in the Nohr army are trying to do right by their country and the people within their country. Peri's inclusion in the army, and her blatant disregard for the lives of innocents, makes a huge negative impact on EVERYONE for simply allowing her to be there.

8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The gimmicks have been around since the GBA days, and they were irritating then, too (there's a reason why I despise Serra).  If you're going to hate the 3DS era for them, at least acknowledge that the earlier games were guilty of this as well.

Uh... I did that.

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7 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

I started with awakening, decided to see if path of radiance and radiance dawn were as good as awakening, and found myself loving them far more than I ever imagined.

It just feels so unfair that IS doesn't just re-release the older games so everyone can decide for themselves.

The hellion days of FE’s youth was put to the sword long ago.

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6 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

I started with awakening, decided to see if path of radiance and radiance dawn were as good as awakening, and found myself loving them far more than I ever imagined.

It just feels so unfair that IS doesn't just re-release the older games so everyone can decide for themselves.

But if I'm just causing more trouble I'll go away for right now at least. Though I do still feel strongly about all this.

I started with the release of FE7 in the US, 15 years ago.  You're the newer fan.

Grow up - it isn't you versus newer fans.  It's you versus your own terrible attitude towards other people.

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

But if you do that, you learn that Peri's whole reason for killing is that she's a spoiled noble... and her parents just didn't bother to teach her that it's bad.

If she was a poor Nohr girl who had to kill to get by and then learned that she enjoyed killing, that'd be one thing. But there's not much indication that outside of the sheer desperation that Nohr is such an amoral country that the nobility are as evil is (New)Garon and people like Hans. And that latter thing is a new incident. And most people in the Nohr army are trying to do right by their country and the people within their country. Peri's inclusion in the army, and her blatant disregard for the lives of innocents, makes a huge negative impact on EVERYONE for simply allowing her to be there.

I'd argue that her being a spoiled brat shows a lot about how Nohr works (especially the fact that she hasn't been executed for it).  It also says bad things about Xander, too.  And I love it.

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

I'd argue that her being a spoiled brat shows a lot about how Nohr works (especially the fact that she hasn't been executed for it).  It also says bad things about Xander, too.  And I love it.

But this is really the only indication that this might be how things work.

The game makes it seem that Nohr's turn into an evil empire is a new development, due to fake Garon. Prior to that, it seems like their questionable ways were due to Nohr being a desolate wasteland, and they had to turn to less savory means to survive, like Kilvas and Thracia of the past.

Xander's whole struggle doesn't really make a whole lot of sense if this is the way Nohr's always been, and Leo and Elise being morally upstanding people doesn't make sense, either. Camilla's really the only person besides Peri that indicates that nobility in Nohr is fucked, but IIRC, there's at least a pretty reasonable explanation for Camilla being the way she is.

Peri's literally "She was never taught that MURDER was wrong."

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