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Decerd

May I ask why some Fire Emblem fans act like Awakening and Fates were the worst thing to happen to the series?

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21 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The FE games seem to no longer be war epics dealing with the themes of fellowship and tragedy,

I can argue that Awakening still pulls this off to a degree. Sure, there's fanservice and anime cliches, but it still has a solid story imo.

Fates though? Forced story deaths that come out of nowhere and don't properly impact the player because the lack of characterization and said characters get very little screentime. If you want a good example of a forced story death where said character didn't get much screentime (Xenoblade spoilers follow)

Spoiler

GADOLT. Love that guy. Saw him in the flashbacks, thought he was an awesome badass, rooted for him to make a triumphant return, got my heart broken seeing him being tortured and eventually dying. GODSPEED SOLDIER. Fandom needs to give him more love, seriously.

 

Edited by Dragoncat

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3 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

 

SoV is a remake and faithful to Gaiden to a fault. It's hardly surprising that a remake of an old game has more in common with older titles. The only major changes were character models. I certainly appreciate them for being more tasteful. Still, SoV was treated as more of a side project for IS, not getting nearly as much promotion and it was handled by a different team iirc. Could it mean good things for FE16? Maybe, but I think they'll go where the money is, which Awakening and Fates made big piles of.

 

I feel like both fanservice  and good story/characters can be in a game at the same time, and if FE15 showed us anything when it come to characters is that IS still know how to write some complex characters, so I'm staying for hopeful for FE16.

 

And also we already know the name of the FE16 Continent, which is more than we ever got in FE14, so I do believe FE15 will have some influence on the upcoming game for sure, I really don't see it being just another Fates, but who knows maybe I'm just being too positive here V_V

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3 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

I can argue that Awakening still pulls this off to a degree. Sure, there's fanservice and anime cliches, but it still has a solid story imo.

True, but in my opinion to a far lesser degree then what is found in the Jugdral Saga or Tellius Saga.

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1 minute ago, Wraith said:

True, but in my opinion to a far lesser degree then what is found in the Jugdral Saga or Tellius Saga.

I can agree with that.

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6 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

I can agree with that.

I’m one of those old fans whose been playing the series for well over a decade and yet had fun with both Awakening and Fates. By the time Awakening came out I had already beaten all the other games in the series and was looking forward to a brand new FE game in 2013. Although I enjoyed Awakening, I believe that it was all the callbacks to the other games in the series that made me enjoy the game more then I should of originally. That and also being able to marry Tiki, in the process giving her own personal story a positive resolution.

Edited by Wraith

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1 minute ago, Slumber said:

But this is really the only indication that this might be how things work.

The game makes it seem that Nohr's turn into an evil empire is a new development, due to fake Garon. Prior to that, it seems like their questionable ways were due to Nohr being a desolate wasteland, and they had to turn to less savory means to survive, like Kilvas and Thracia of the past.

Xander's whole struggle doesn't really make a whole lot of sense if this is the way Nohr's always been, and Leo and Elise being morally upstanding people doesn't make sense, either. Camilla's really the only person besides Peri that indicates that nobility in Nohr is fucked, but IIRC, there's at least a pretty reasonable explanation for Camilla being the way she is.

Peri's literally "She was never taught that MURDER was wrong."

There's more to Peri's support chain that just that.  Among other things:

- servants can be hired, and were paid accordingly (Niles)
- somehow, word of the murders didn't get out to the commoners - instead, it was attributed to some doll (also Niles)
- to nobility, it was merely "bad treatment" (Silas)
- merchants suck (Arthur. . .but this seems to be a Fatselandia thing, not something reserved for Nohr)
- strength is more important than morality (Xander, if his logic is to be believed)
- apparently there's some sort of schooling? (Xander, again)

So it's some sort of weird pseudo-capitalistic society that can turn a blind eye to certain things if the person in question is important enough. . .which is depressingly like a few too many countries in the world.  Xander's logic is really strange.  He wants someone strong, so they won't die on him.  I suspect the death of his mother might have had a bigger impact on him than it appears. . .because Garon most certainly doesn't seem to have those types of attachment issues!

Leo, interestingly enough, somewhat explains his morality in Peri's supports.  From Camilla's support with Elise, the former seems quite protective of the latter. . .and having that kind of security helps one's disposition!

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On 12/23/2018 at 5:13 PM, eclipse said:

In my conclusion, you should play New Mystery of the Emblem, for that's where everything you dislike started.

I do have a lot of the same issues with FE12, personally, as far as the story goes. This topic isn't about FE12, though, so I didn't think to bring it up

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3 hours ago, Rose482 said:

I feel like both fanservice  and good story/characters can be in a game at the same time, and if FE15 showed us anything when it come to characters is that IS still know how to write some complex characters, so I'm staying for hopeful for FE16.

 

And also we already know the name of the FE16 Continent, which is more than we ever got in FE14, so I do believe FE15 will have some influence on the upcoming game for sure, I really don't see it being just another Fates, but who knows maybe I'm just being too positive here V_V

I agree. SoV had 'sexy' characters like Sonya but there is a world of difference between the way she is handled and the way Camilla is handled. I don't mind characters being sexy, but I prefer it to be a reflection of who they are as people as opposed to trying to sell sex to the player.

I am cautiously optimistic for Three Houses. The presence of what is probably an Avatar is concerning but the outfits look respectable and I haven't seen any major red flags yet. Here's hoping for a good game.

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

I'm not sure if you played FE12, but if you haven't, I suggest avoiding it.  Not only did it have the avatar worship thing, it also rewrote Marth to fit that narrative. . .and I'm not sure whether I find Fates' handling of Corrin more offensive, or that.

I'm not overly attached to the Marth games, so perhaps I am less incensed by what Kris did to FE12. Altering an existing story to accommodate player worship is a different poison than a game built from the ground up to feature player worship. What I meant by the Avatar being fully realized in Awakening/Fates is the ability to romance the other characters, which is a step up from the avatar 'merely' affecting the plot. I think there is a dramatic shift in character writing and the way fans appreciate the character when the game is encouraging you to self insert to be with your favorite waifu/husbando.

I see Fates as the bare-bones framework to sell characters to players. The story doesn't matter, it's just make you feel special and grow attached to colorful and often very gimmicky characters.

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21 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

To be honest, I feel that Awakening gets too much flak if anything. As a whole, both gameplay-wise and story-wise, Awakening works just fine. In fact, one of the reasons for Awakening's popularity is due to skilled marketing skills and also being a lot more player-friendly than the old games were. Because of one little hiccup in the difficulty mode of Radiant Dawn, the sales really took a hit for the west. 

I played Shadow Dragon first before, but never finished it because it always annoyed me. But then I played Awakening and finished it, and fell in love with the series and started to go back and look at the old games, and replayed Shadow Dragon, and fell in love with how amazing Marth is. 

The story of Awakening isn't actually bad. It really isn't. It's rushed, and given what it was meant to be, it makes perfect sense. Awakening was a game designed to be a huge reference game, meant to cram in as many references as possible to give Awakening a proper send-off so that the writers can express how much fun they had over the series and how much they love it. So they really squeezed in a lot of things, but this is precisely what I felt gave so much life in the story, but also what made it feel so rushed in each arc. If you could make Awakening again, but the writers decided to separate the three arcs into full games, that would be something incredibly special. Doubtful they would, given their track record of remakes are, but I can dream. Another reason some people hate on Awakening is because this is a world set in the same universe as Archanea, being the future of that continent. Many existing things from that past, like the Binding Shield having changed functions, the Earth Dragons having vanished, and Tiki all ended up causing some people to rage on because it's not the same as back then. I honestly feel any criticism toward Awakening Tiki is a result more about how they more can't handle the fact that Tiki can actually grow up from that little girl from back then. 

The gameplay I confess is very unbalanced, but I'm really not the guy that understands what makes a "good" map, given that both Shadow Dragon and New Mystery follow a similar formula of just seizing the castle, yet those games get praised for having great gameplay. I don't honestly get what makes a good map design or not, because all I do is play it. Yeah, Awakening was not exactly balanced, but that's actually what made it fun. I have replayed Awakening and invested well over 100 hours on it. I even collected EVERY support conversation in the game. 

Fates is where I believe that IS truly messed up. There was not as much ambition placed in the game as it had the potential of actually having. This is because Fates ended up trying to focus what made Awakening so great.

This is the actual problem for how this divide between the fandom actually happened. Had Awakening not been such a huge influence over Fates, people would not hate on Awakening so much, but most would be thankful for Awakening to have given some more time and allowing more Fire Emblem to be produced. But they do hate on Awakening because of how Awakening did have so much influence over Fates, and that caused people to react harshly toward it as a result, because it caused them to fear that Fire Emblem was turning into a direction that older fans did not like. 

you know what I 100% agree with this post. like @Etrurian emperor you pretty much summed up all my thoughts on the matter especially the part about fates trying too hard to recreate what made awakening great. major props to both of you. Thank you for expressing what I could not. This is honestly why I hate it when people lump awakening and fates together and refer to them as if they're both equally terrible. No they're not. Aside from gameplay anyway Awakening is imo better than fates. Cause you know it's story isn't a complete dumpster fire. Awakening imo also has better characters and villains. I dunno it just irritates me whenever I see that sort of thing.

Edited by Otts486

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9 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

Awakening is imo better than fates. Cause you know it's story isn't a complete dumpster fire.

This. I sold Fates and kept Awakening. Fates is a dumpster fire...all over I think. Gameplay is fine I guess though.

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36 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm not overly attached to the Marth games, so perhaps I am less incensed by what Kris did to FE12. Altering an existing story to accommodate player worship is a different poison than a game built from the ground up to feature player worship. What I meant by the Avatar being fully realized in Awakening/Fates is the ability to romance the other characters, which is a step up from the avatar 'merely' affecting the plot. I think there is a dramatic shift in character writing and the way fans appreciate the character when the game is encouraging you to self insert to be with your favorite waifu/husbando.

I see Fates as the bare-bones framework to sell characters to players. The story doesn't matter, it's just make you feel special and grow attached to colorful and often very gimmicky characters.

Uh, I have some bad news for you regarding FE12 and characters who may or may not become romantically interested in the avatar. . .

Anyway, I found that changing existing canon to support a self-insert was more offensive.  At least with Fates, it was its own thing, for better or for worse.  New Mystery already had a story.  I'd rather have something a little too true to its roots than altered just to fit in a character that had no business being in there in the first place.  Then again, I didn't see Corrin as an extension of myself - they were just too different for me to take seriously (because if that was me, I'd be forever single in that cast).  Instead, they're just another playable character, albeit one with more customization.

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Indeed, for the people that complain about the stylistic changes that began with Awakening... well, FE12 was actually the beginning of those.

That said, I do really like FE12 over the other two, but it was rather obviously shoehorning in the concept of the avatar.

Edited by Tryhard

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Just now, eclipse said:

Uh, I have some bad news for you regarding FE12 and characters who may or may not become romantically interested in the avatar. . .

Fair enough. It just reinforces my point further then, that IS' take on playable avatars is to warp both the plot and character writing for player worship.

It's a shame. A playable avatar is a lot of fun for gameplay and it's kind of neat to be a participant in the world. I just wish IS could reign themselves in and not make the avatar so central to the universe.

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As somebody who didn't have much affection towards Marth's games, I didn't have very strong feelings towards Kris...

Until I found out that he moves in on Draug's love interest. That will always be hilarious to me.

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1 hour ago, Slumber said:

As somebody who didn't have much affection towards Marth's games, I didn't have very strong feelings towards Kris...

Until I found out that he moves in on Draug's love interest. That will always be hilarious to me.

Yeah honestly this was one of the funniest things when I played it.

Truth be told, even if 12 did some weird shiz with Kris, I didn't find it as bad as Fates (coming from the guy who's still trying to trudge through getting all the supports in Fates). Even if Kris was kinda shoehorned in, the story was far better done than the Fates, I found that the new story (Katarina and a few other details) were far more enjoyable than Fates ever could be.

5 hours ago, eclipse said:

There's more to Peri's support chain that just that.  Among other things:

- servants can be hired, and were paid accordingly (Niles)
- somehow, word of the murders didn't get out to the commoners - instead, it was attributed to some doll (also Niles)
- to nobility, it was merely "bad treatment" (Silas)
- merchants suck (Arthur. . .but this seems to be a Fatselandia thing, not something reserved for Nohr)
- strength is more important than morality (Xander, if his logic is to be believed)
- apparently there's some sort of schooling? (Xander, again)

So it's some sort of weird pseudo-capitalistic society that can turn a blind eye to certain things if the person in question is important enough. . .which is depressingly like a few too many countries in the world.  Xander's logic is really strange.  He wants someone strong, so they won't die on him.  I suspect the death of his mother might have had a bigger impact on him than it appears. . .because Garon most certainly doesn't seem to have those types of attachment issues!

Leo, interestingly enough, somewhat explains his morality in Peri's supports.  From Camilla's support with Elise, the former seems quite protective of the latter. . .and having that kind of security helps one's disposition!

Yeah I agree. Peri per se isn't someone I love as a character, but like you said, she (and most of the Conquest cast) builds up this world of "the strong rule the weak" so long as they're more important, which kinda shows why Nohr really doesn't care about what Garon does at all, because it seems that they have this mentality in the first place.

Edited by ArgentSable

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13 hours ago, eclipse said:

Uh, I have some bad news for you regarding FE12 and characters who may or may not become romantically interested in the avatar. . .

Not only that but Kris taking several of Marth’s and Jeigans lines and best moments away from them only add to why I feel Kris is the worst character in the entire franchise. The whole Fates situation as controversial as it is was built around Corrin originally.

Mystery had no place for the dumb assassins plot or Kris’s existence and thus suffers way more as a result (imo).

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4 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Not only that but Kris taking several of Marth’s and Jeigans lines and best moments away from them only add to why I feel Kris is the worst character in the entire franchise. The whole Fates situation as controversial as it is was built around Corrin originally.

Mystery had no place for the dumb assassins plot or Kris’s existence and thus suffers way more as a result (imo).

Kris stealing the lines and achievements of others is definitely the strongest mark against him. He's something of a parasite which is never a good thing. 

But the new mystery plot definitely had place for the assassins plotline. They are introduced before the story where Marth isn't really doing anything and as far as I recall and the other  missions occur when Marth has a little downtime. I recall the tsundere assassin ambushing Marth somewhere in the frozen north which is something that can happen and Emyrin only falls after Hardin gets defeated. Unlike Kris the assassin plotline does a good job of not intruding on the main plot. 

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1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Kris stealing the lines and achievements of others is definitely the strongest mark against him. He's something of a parasite which is never a good thing. 

But the new mystery plot definitely had place for the assassins plotline. They are introduced before the story where Marth isn't really doing anything and as far as I recall and the other  missions occur when Marth has a little downtime. I recall the tsundere assassin ambushing Marth somewhere in the frozen north which is something that can happen and Emyrin only falls after Hardin gets defeated. Unlike Kris the assassin plotline does a good job of not intruding on the main plot. 

Well, some lines aren't big deals, but what achievements did he do that remove from Marth's own greatness? As far as I know, you're Marth's glorified bodyguard, and one obssesed with helping him to boot.

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1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Mystery had no place for the dumb assassins plot or Kris’s existence and thus suffers way more as a result (imo).

 

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Kris stealing the lines and achievements of others is definitely the strongest mark against him. He's something of a parasite which is never a good thing. 

But the new mystery plot definitely had place for the assassins plotline. They are introduced before the story where Marth isn't really doing anything and as far as I recall and the other  missions occur when Marth has a little downtime. I recall the tsundere assassin ambushing Marth somewhere in the frozen north which is something that can happen and Emyrin only falls after Hardin gets defeated. Unlike Kris the assassin plotline does a good job of not intruding on the main plot. 

What @Etrurian emperor said. The assassination could stay. Honestly, Kris stealing lines is always a no-no, but Kris in the assassinations in particular I felt should have been where Kris should have had his moments. Marth is great and all, but Katarina was the member of Platoon 7 and Kris and Cecil's dear friend, so I feel that the side stories should have been the moments that Kris got times to shine and develop since it was all to build up him saving Katarina. 

I ship those two a lot. XD

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23 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

Well, some lines aren't big deals, but what achievements did he do that remove from Marth's own greatness? As far as I know, you're Marth's glorified bodyguard, and one obssesed with helping him to boot.

Well basically at the end of FE12, Kris was basically celebrated as the true hero of the war that defeated Medeus, however because Kris desires to remain Marth's shadow so he allows Marth to take all the credit because Marth is the only one who can lead Archanea. Basically, Kris, the avatar, is the reason Medeus was killed not Marth and by proxy, the reason Archanea became a united continent. It also doesn't help that Marth's stellar characterisation from SD is wiped away by Kris being a total badass at everything and Marth being, in the words of his sister no less, 'a weak, vulnerable child'.

I encourage you read this post by RJ Walker on reddit. It pretty much sums up all that is wrong with Kris.

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9 minutes ago, ΔZZ said:

Well basically at the end of FE12, Kris was basically celebrated as the true hero of the war that defeated Medeus, however because Kris desires to remain Marth's shadow so he allows Marth to take all the credit because Marth is the only one who can lead Archanea. Basically, Kris, the avatar, is the reason Medeus was killed not Marth and by proxy, the reason Archanea became a united continent. It also doesn't help that Marth's stellar characterisation from SD is wiped away by Kris being a total badass at everything and Marth being, in the words of his sister no less, 'a weak, vulnerable child'.

I encourage you read this post by RJ Walker on reddit. It pretty much sums up all that is wrong with Kris.

Well, the guy is obviously salty in the post. Since the post is full of him saying that they suck Kris' dick (I kid you not XD) but I don't find it as atrocious. For example, in Fates the story is horrendous, the only thing keeping the game alive is the actual cast that makes it bearable for me, and even then not all of the cast is bearable.

 

In New Mystery the cast is good, and though Kris does take the limelight, it's still the united effort of the Hero's of Light and Shadow, Kris and Marth, that the world is saved. Sure, the wording may be extremely to Kris favor, as obviously seen, but I still find it less bad than Fates. But that's me. I guess I may just be tired of Fates after grinding supports on and off since release now. XD

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The main reason the hate comes is that the latter two don't improve or bring back any of the things that the previous games do and just add game mechanics that don't benefit the games whatsoever. Marriage is entirely useless because you can still beat the games with gen 1 characters no matter what.

Conquest is the only great game of the three. Birthright has bland maps and make Awakening's better somehow. And the plot in fates is the worst of all.

 

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4 hours ago, Harvey said:

The main reason the hate comes is that the latter two don't improve or bring back any of the things that the previous games do and just add game mechanics that don't benefit the games whatsoever. Marriage is entirely useless because you can still beat the games with gen 1 characters no matter what.

Conquest is the only great game of the three. Birthright has bland maps and make Awakening's better somehow. And the plot in fates is the worst of all.

 

I wouldn't say it's useless per se. Marriage was in the older games (Mostly ending supports but about the same thing beside the CG) and it benefited the units with invisible stat boost when near their partner. It also grants an added sense of attachment to units which, in most cases, get barely any characterization outside of their initial recruiting chapter (the majority of every FE character). Simply because you can beat a game without marriage doesn't equate to the feature being useless, but I digress.

 

On a side note, I actually hate Conquest out of the 3 (I like the cast, hate the story). The story is by far bad. Just the way everyone (even the people you kill) have to love Corrin and literally act like he's a saint annoys me to no end. Even if Bright's maps were objectively worse, the story was classic FE and quite bearable.

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On 12/24/2018 at 10:36 AM, omegaxis1 said:

That reminds me of that "Ask-Lucina" tumblr thing as well.

Oh yeah, ask blogs are a huge thing on tumblr. Hell, even run one. They're pretty fun, all things considered.

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On 12/23/2018 at 2:09 PM, Decerd said:

I don't understand why some people act like Awakening and Fates are the devil's products and they ruined everything about Fire Emblem. If it weren't for Awakening, this series would be dead alongside the likes of Advance Wars, F-Zero, Earthbound, and Golden Sun, and while Fates's storytelling isn't superb, I think it's gameplay and characters are solid. I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but were Awakening and Fates really that bad to them?

Awakening was different but was lacking in story (whatever) had some minor issues (pair up broken totally broken classes etc) but the grinding was too accessible that was their biggest crime (or fanservice lol)

But fates is the devil

Ruined (among other things)

The story

Microtransactions (not really but they screwed all the fans with three games that were one)

Pair up (enemy pair ups made any charecter with almost any weakness unusable) 

Hybrid rng 

Weapons (not just the breaking but the stat drops and negative avoid ) all the weapons that didnt get you killed did zero dmg

The theme (used to be strictly old European) but now we have hitomi hinata hayoto hisame hinoka 

Charectors(86 of them i think even though most are total trash with like either 5% hp or 5% skill or 5% def or res in a game that requires perfectly balanced stats to be useful they either cant hit cant tank or cant do damage or cant dodge or get doubled every time

Maps

The maps arent so bad in themselves its the bs enemy ai and bs troops like flying bow bird thingys to make your flyers useless or bosses with super low stats and (skill)counter

Skills although i liked the personal skills (not you arthur or saizo) all the others were either to broken or useless

At any rate at least we have shadows of Valencia now to give us hope for three houses

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