May I ask why some Fire Emblem fans act like Awakening and Fates were the worst thing to happen to the series?

[Cysx]

I don't hate the games themselves(Awakening somewhat, but not really). However, I do think that they incarnate a direction shift for the series, and this on the other hand bothers me. But really, I kinda want to address the notion that fanservice should absolutely keep being a big part of it, because I think that's pretty debatable all things considered.

First, there is no denying it's been massively helpful in reviving Fire Emblem. It's put it on so many more people's radar and the brand really needed such exposure; so all things considered, it probably was the right call(until they went overboard with Fates). But when it comes to the future, there's an issue; for as many people that deeply care about fanservice, there are those that are instantly turned off by it, especially outside of Japan. Now it's hard to gauge exactly how big this series can ever get, considering s-rpgs aren't exactly among the most popular genres out there, but I feel it will have a very hard time growing any further if it suffers from an image problem, which is difficult to avoid when everyone's throwing around "waifu emblem"s and character designs such as Nowi's exist.

What's interesting, and I'll stop after that because I'm threading the line of being off-topic here I feel, but this last console generation has shown that great games can and will sell... only by virtue of being great games, that can appeal to most people. I think especially on the Switch, where there is currently a huge demand for solid exclusives, there are lots of points to be gained by releasing a genuine, controversy free, great Fire Emblem game in 2019, much, much more than by focusing on pleasing the fanservice crowd again. You'll probably tell me that fanservice and quality aren't incompatible, and granted, you're not wrong, but what I really want to hammer down is that it shouldn't be a big part of the appeal, nor one of its main selling points. I just don't think you can reach globally respected franchise status by wearing waifu emblem on your sleeve, plain and simple. There's also the issue of Nintendo needing to conserve a family-friendly image at all times, meaning a decently big name like FE could potentially not get away with Camillas forever... but who knows.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Cysx

[Etrurian emperor]

54 minutes ago, Cysx said:

There's also the issue of Nintendo needing to conserve a family-friendly image at all times, meaning a decently big name like FE could potentially not get away with Camillas forever... but who knows.

Fire Emblem has never really been in line with Nintendo's image. Long before the 3ds era Fire Emblem had very family unfriendly themes like war, slaughter, child hunts, bandits implying or directly referencing sexual slavery, Tellian Josef Mengele and death. Camilla seems a strange place to start drawing a line if Nintendo already allowed so much. 

[Cysx]

20 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Fire Emblem has never really been in line with Nintendo's image. Long before the 3ds era Fire Emblem had very family unfriendly themes like war, slaughter, child hunts, bandits implying or directly referencing sexual slavery, Tellian Josef Mengele and death. Camilla seems a strange place to start drawing a line if Nintendo already allowed so much. 

It's true that it's difficult to say if this matters at all, especially with Heroes art being the way it is. To me it seems like they're fairly lenient when it comes to games that don't garner that much attention(which progressively applies less and less for Fire Emblem), and themes don't matter as much as visuals, hence why I think things like skinship can cross the line easier than incest as a major plot point, or a design like Camilla's vs child hunts. But that could be incorrect.

[Shoblongoo]

7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Fire Emblem has never really been in line with Nintendo's image. Long before the 3ds era Fire Emblem had very family unfriendly themes like war, slaughter, child hunts, bandits implying or directly referencing sexual slavery, Tellian Josef Mengele and death. Camilla seems a strange place to start drawing a line if Nintendo already allowed so much. 

I think I've mentioned this before--but I have no problem with the "new direction" fanservicing and waifu shipping and whatnot in-and-of-itself. I have a problem with it being used as a substitute for rather than as a compliment to the character-driven storytelling and plot progression and worldbuilding that we got from older titles.  

Fates of course was the worst offender--with all the effort they put into making sure every single character had underwear models and kissy faces and you accidentally just walked in on them naked in the bathhouse dialogue before they had a finished story or setting.

...Then they released the game and they still didn't have a finished story or setting--but dammit--Camilla's tits had their own creative team...

...THAT's where Fates crossed the line...when the barrage of fanservice and the resource focus they put into developing the fanservice became a replacement for core elements of a classic fire emblem game that were left undeveloped. Rather than something that they added on at the end when the game and story and character elements were up-to-par for the series, and they had extra time and budget to start playing around the edges with hey--you know what would be really wild? If we took the cavalry models, and we made the female armor completely bare-assed. Can we do that? We can!? Great! What else can we do to sex this game up???

You want fanservice to be your hook? Fine. Use fanservice as your hook.

Make a finished game first.

Awakening wasn't that bad--the shipping element and the fanservicy characters like Nowi and Tharja and Olivia were there--my only complaint is that there was an overabundance of poorly written support chains because everyone has to be able to marry everyone, which wound up detracting from rather than adding to the characters that got stuck with them.

I always go back to comparing it to FE7, where most characters had a cap of three (3) potential romantic partners in their support chains. And where every chain had its own internal sensibility + sense of how a unique relationship was building. And part of each character's personality was which pool of limited persons they were potentially compatible with. 

Now imagine that every single male in the army was a potential romantic support for Rebecca, Priscilla, Fiora, Farina etc. And there were a million halfbaked, cookie-cutter, no-chemistry "romantic" pairings for everything from [Ninian x Erk] to [Farina x Lucius]--walls and walls and walls of them, taking up the bulk of the games support dialogue and burying all the good supports fans of FE7 have come to know and love beneath heaping piles of:

• Rebecca: Hey, Eliwood? Can we talk?
• Eliwood: Of course, Rebecca. What's on your mind?
• Rebecca: I was wondering what kind of person I am to you. I mean, how do you see me? Do you still think I'm some ignorant kid who can't be trusted to wash her own ears?
• Eliwood: Why do you ask?
• Rebecca: Well, er... I was kind of hoping you'd accept this gift.
• Eliwood: ...A ring?
• Rebecca: It has my family's crest on it, right here. It's our most treasured heirloom.
• Eliwood: And you want to give it to me?
• Rebecca: Listen, I know that you're smitten with Ninian. Heck, everyone does! But I like you far more than she ever will. Or could, for that matter! So I was thinking that perhaps we could get...you know, married?
• Eliwood: Wow, I...I wasn't expecting anything like this. I don't know what to say. Honestly, I've always thought of you as something of a kid sister.
• Rebecca: Well, I'm not your sister, Eliwood. I'm nearly a grown woman. And now I'm asking you to look at me as the woman who's fallen in love with you.
• Eliwood: You still seem young to me, Rebecca. But when I look to the future...
• Rebecca: Yes?
• Eliwood: I see you becoming something amazing. My equal, my partner, and my champion.
• Rebecca: Does this mean...?
• Eliwood: Yes. I accept your ring.
• Rebecca: Yippee! We're going to get married! I can't wait for the ceremony!
• Eliwood: But wait we must. There'll be no ceremony until you come of age.
• Rebecca Oh, all right. But meanwhile, I'll do all I can to be the woman you dreamed of. Plus, you'll be around to make sure I become strong, right?
• Eliwood: Of course. Although I'm starting to wonder if I have anything left to teach you. You've already made me proud, Rebecca. I'm looking forward to our future!

^^^
Literally a copy/paste of [Ricken x Cordelia]'s S-Support, with the names changed and the genders swapped. 

...stick 50+ of those in FE7...see if that cast of characters still has the same charm...

I do think Awakening would have been better served to take like the 3 best romantic support chains for each character. Scrap the rest. And follow the FE7 formula of quality-over-quantity. 

But that's a comparatively minor nitpick, next to what went wrong in Fates. 


 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Rose482]

34 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Farina x Lucius

Okay I know this is random, but those two will make a cute pair now that you made me think about lol.

[Jedi]

I guess this is the time to bring this up which will probably serve to divide people further. 

 

[Azz]

2 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I guess this is the time to bring this up which will probably serve to divide people further. 

 

Honestly, I don't see a problem with this personally. Outside of the actual FE community, it was loved by most people that played it, especially gaming critics and IMO is well deserving of this achievement (despite it's flaws).

[Shoblongoo]

38 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I guess this is the time to bring this up which will probably serve to divide people further. 

 

Fine with that.
Feel like Advance Wars 2 is probably more deserving of the accolade...but w/e...dead series is dead...
 

39 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

Okay I know this is random, but those two will make a cute pair now that you made me think about lol.

(C):   Farina mocks his priestly vows of poverty and flaunts her big fat mercenary paycheck in his face. Lucius takes it on the chin.

(B):   Lucius comes into possession of some great treasure. Farina develops newfound respect for the priest, upon witnessing him give it away without hesitation to some sickly orphans in need of money for food and medicine.

(A):  Farina apologizes for her earlier behavior and asks Lucius to perform a priestly confessional. Then proceeds to tell him about shocking, unspeakable things that shes done for money. Lucius says she's a good person, and admires the sacrifices she has made to support her sisters. 

...
...
...Yeah...I can see it...

Of course In Awakening writing it would just be like:

(C):  "I look like a woman. You like money." 
(B):  "I like money. You look like a woman."
(A):  "I feel like we know so much about eachother now!"
(S):  "Love U. Lets get married." 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

I guess this is the time to bring this up which will probably serve to divide people further. 

 

That's definitely unexpected, but I guess it makes sense? The award itself existing is pretty weird, though.

[Jedi]

6 minutes ago, Cysx said:

That's definitely unexpected, but I guess it makes sense? The award itself existing is pretty weird, though.

It is super specific, but then again Warriors Orochi 4 recently won "Most Playable Characters In A Hack N Slash"

So it's just like that I guess haha.

[ArgentSable]

2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

I think I've mentioned this before--but I have no problem with the "new direction" fanservicing and waifu shipping and whatnot in-and-of-itself. I have a problem with it being used as a substitute for rather than as a compliment to the character-driven storytelling and plot progression and worldbuilding that we got from older titles.  

Fates of course was the worst offender--with all the effort they put into making sure every single character had underwear models and kissy faces and you accidentally just walked in on them naked in the bathhouse dialogue before they had a finished story or setting.

...Then they released the game and they still didn't have a finished story or setting--but dammit--Camilla's tits had their own creative team...

...THAT's where Fates crossed the line...when the barrage of fanservice and the resource focus they put into developing the fanservice became a replacement for core elements of a classic fire emblem game that were left undeveloped. Rather than something that they added on at the end when the game and story and character elements were up-to-par for the series, and they had extra time and budget to start playing around the edges with hey--you know what would be really wild? If we took the cavalry models, and we made the female armor completely bare-assed. Can we do that? We can!? Great! What else can we do to sex this game up???

You want fanservice to be your hook? Fine. Use fanservice as your hook.

Make a finished game first.

Awakening wasn't that bad--the shipping element and the fanservicy characters like Nowi and Tharja and Olivia were there--my only complaint is that there was an overabundance of poorly written support chains because everyone has to be able to marry everyone, which wound up detracting from rather than adding to the characters that got stuck with them.

I always go back to comparing it to FE7, where most characters had a cap of three (3) potential romantic partners in their support chains. And where every chain had its own internal sensibility + sense of how a unique relationship was building. And part of each character's personality was which pool of limited persons they were potentially compatible with. 

Now imagine that every single male in the army was a potential romantic support for Rebecca, Priscilla, Fiora, Farina etc. And there were a million halfbaked, cookie-cutter, no-chemistry "romantic" pairings for everything from [Ninian x Erk] to [Farina x Lucius]--walls and walls and walls of them, taking up the bulk of the games support dialogue and burying all the good supports fans of FE7 have come to know and love beneath heaping piles of:

• Rebecca: Hey, Eliwood? Can we talk?
• Eliwood: Of course, Rebecca. What's on your mind?
• Rebecca: I was wondering what kind of person I am to you. I mean, how do you see me? Do you still think I'm some ignorant kid who can't be trusted to wash her own ears?
• Eliwood: Why do you ask?
• Rebecca: Well, er... I was kind of hoping you'd accept this gift.
• Eliwood: ...A ring?
• Rebecca: It has my family's crest on it, right here. It's our most treasured heirloom.
• Eliwood: And you want to give it to me?
• Rebecca: Listen, I know that you're smitten with Ninian. Heck, everyone does! But I like you far more than she ever will. Or could, for that matter! So I was thinking that perhaps we could get...you know, married?
• Eliwood: Wow, I...I wasn't expecting anything like this. I don't know what to say. Honestly, I've always thought of you as something of a kid sister.
• Rebecca: Well, I'm not your sister, Eliwood. I'm nearly a grown woman. And now I'm asking you to look at me as the woman who's fallen in love with you.
• Eliwood: You still seem young to me, Rebecca. But when I look to the future...
• Rebecca: Yes?
• Eliwood: I see you becoming something amazing. My equal, my partner, and my champion.
• Rebecca: Does this mean...?
• Eliwood: Yes. I accept your ring.
• Rebecca: Yippee! We're going to get married! I can't wait for the ceremony!
• Eliwood: But wait we must. There'll be no ceremony until you come of age.
• Rebecca Oh, all right. But meanwhile, I'll do all I can to be the woman you dreamed of. Plus, you'll be around to make sure I become strong, right?
• Eliwood: Of course. Although I'm starting to wonder if I have anything left to teach you. You've already made me proud, Rebecca. I'm looking forward to our future!

^^^
Literally a copy/paste of [Ricken x Cordelia]'s S-Support, with the names changed and the genders swapped. 

...stick 50+ of those in FE7...see if that cast of characters still has the same charm...

I do think Awakening would have been better served to take like the 3 best romantic support chains for each character. Scrap the rest. And follow the FE7 formula of quality-over-quantity. 

But that's a comparatively minor nitpick, next to what went wrong in Fates. 


 

I will say that, to me Awakening did have some bad supports, Nah x Inigo being the worst offender by a longshot (though any supports like Chrom x Olivia's, or Nowi x Anyone kinda fit that criteria for me as well) I will say that I find Olivia less fanservicey due to her actual personality and flaws (the duality of wanting attention from the person she's interested in, but being completely incapable of acting that way beside them, unless they're married, of course). Tharja and Nowi are pure fanservice thought and I completely agree.

But I completely agree with Fates' fanservice over story problem. You ever just wonder how Fates would have been if they took the Camilla design squad and my castle petting squad and put the money into story. XD

[eclipse]

20 minutes ago, ArgentSable said:

I will say that, to me Awakening did have some bad supports, Nah x Inigo being the worst offender by a longshot (though any supports like Chrom x Olivia's, or Nowi x Anyone kinda fit that criteria for me as well) I will say that I find Olivia less fanservicey due to her actual personality and flaws (the duality of wanting attention from the person she's interested in, but being completely incapable of acting that way beside them, unless they're married, of course). Tharja and Nowi are pure fanservice thought and I completely agree.

But I completely agree with Fates' fanservice over story problem. You ever just wonder how Fates would have been if they took the Camilla design squad and my castle petting squad and put the money into story. XD

Can you at least read Tharja/Nowi's supports before coming to that conclusion?

[ArgentSable]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Can you at least read Tharja/Nowi's supports before coming to that conclusion?

Well I've read them all. Tharja comes off as super creep but is not insane (unlike Henry who is a sociopath with a smile). Nowi is also relatively sad, considering her deeper thoughts regarding living for really long and losing her friends (which I think Tiki also mentioned which is accurate for the manaketes). So, I have read them, don't remember them all, but I do remember some of them.

 

I just think that Nowi at the very least, was designed with some level of fanservice in mind. Her outfit kinda fits that idea. Tharja however is less fanservicy but still remains in that domain due to her constant fixation on Robin (which doesn't even make sense if they get together since she treats her and Robin's child like total doodoo butts). So in reality, you're right, they aren't just fanservice, I miss spoke. However they do however have some fanservice.

 

[Hawkwing]

7 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Awakening wasn't that bad--the shipping element and the fanservicy characters like Nowi and Tharja and Olivia were there--my only complaint is that there was an overabundance of poorly written support chains because everyone has to be able to marry everyone, which wound up detracting from rather than adding to the characters that got stuck with them.

I actually think Awakening has the opposite problem; The C-B-A supports tend to work well at making two characters come across as friends, but the S-Support often comes out of nowhere, with the two characters suddenly marrying when the previous conversations had little to no hint of romantic interest.

Really, though, I think that the inherit subjectivity of the topic matter makes it difficult to judge or determine the quality of S-Supports. A pairing that one person sees as believable could be viewed as forced to another, one person could see the previous supports hinting at the S one, while others could see the proposal coming out of nowhere, etc. It doesn't help that the C-B-A supports could be seen as good, but the S-Support as crap (and in rare cases, vice versa), or a person believes that the proposal is the best conversation two characters have with each other. It's something that will range from person to person, which is cool for personal experience, but not so much determining overall quality.

As for the writing quality of Awakenings supports... Really, just pick a character, any character, read every single one of their supports, and it tells you all you need to know. It is very easy to jump from reading a hidden gem to viewing crap. While I personally find that the good outnumbers the bad and that the overall quality is impressive given the quantity, it shows that the amount of supports the writers had to make did catch up to them several times.

I do wonder how much first impressions affect ones opinion of the game in that area. I was lucky in that I went from a support chain that made Stahl my favorite Fire Emblem character and soon thereafter read an S-Support that had a similar set-up... and was instead left unimpressed, and learned that Awakening would probably do that constantly. I can only imagine what a person who found a number of hidden gems or a bunch of the crap early on would think of the games writing quality.

[ArgentSable]

1 hour ago, Hawkwing said:

I actually think Awakening has the opposite problem; The C-B-A supports tend to work well at making two characters come across as friends, but the S-Support often comes out of nowhere, with the two characters suddenly marrying when the previous conversations had little to no hint of romantic interest.

Really, though, I think that the inherit subjectivity of the topic matter makes it difficult to judge or determine the quality of S-Supports. A pairing that one person sees as believable could be viewed as forced to another, one person could see the previous supports hinting at the S one, while others could see the proposal coming out of nowhere, etc. It doesn't help that the C-B-A supports could be seen as good, but the S-Support as crap (and in rare cases, vice versa), or a person believes that the proposal is the best conversation two characters have with each other. It's something that will range from person to person, which is cool for personal experience, but not so much determining overall quality.

As for the writing quality of Awakenings supports... Really, just pick a character, any character, read every single one of their supports, and it tells you all you need to know. It is very easy to jump from reading a hidden gem to viewing crap. While I personally find that the good outnumbers the bad and that the overall quality is impressive given the quantity, it shows that the amount of supports the writers had to make did catch up to them several times.

I do wonder how much first impressions affect ones opinion of the game in that area. I was lucky in that I went from a support chain that made Stahl my favorite Fire Emblem character and soon thereafter read an S-Support that had a similar set-up... and was instead left unimpressed, and learned that Awakening would probably do that constantly. I can only imagine what a person who found a number of hidden gems or a bunch of the crap early on would think of the games writing quality.

Yeah it's really subjective. A good example is the Chrom x Olivia versus the Chrom x Sumia debate.

 

Some claim that Sumia is a good candidate for story appearances, and other such situations, and that though her support in the English translation is meh, her japanese support is adorable, but some find them bland and uninteresting.

The same can be said for people that like Chrom x Olivia, though it has Sigurd vibes which alot of people find extremely bad since it's forced and unbelievable

Some find Sumia just plain boring, even if it's pushed. And other's find the Olivia support to be unbelievable, and nonsense since it's what equates to getting married after talking to a girl a total of 1 time, or, more so her dancing for you a few times.

 

This is a pretty good example. Other good examples are the "Is Tharja a good character debacle" regarding her abuse to her kids, the Cordelia debacle regarding her obssession with Chrom (even though she has some other bits of personality) and so on.

[NekoKnight]

10 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

I think I've mentioned this before--but I have no problem with the "new direction" fanservicing and waifu shipping and whatnot in-and-of-itself. I have a problem with it being used as a substitute for rather than as a compliment to the character-driven storytelling and plot progression and worldbuilding that we got from older titles.  

This matches my thoughts. We've always had some amount of fanservicey elements but there was so much more to draw you into the games. Fates in particular gutted its core theme, that of family, in order to sell more waifu/husbandos. It was even stated by the developers that the little brothers were specifically designed to appeal to women. That's the smoking gun for where their priorities lie. 

10 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Literally a copy/paste of [Ricken x Cordelia]'s S-Support, with the names changed and the genders swapped. 

I really thought that was a dedicated parody post because it was so uncomfortable, but apparently it's real.

 

 

[eclipse]

19 hours ago, ArgentSable said:

Well I've read them all. Tharja comes off as super creep but is not insane (unlike Henry who is a sociopath with a smile). Nowi is also relatively sad, considering her deeper thoughts regarding living for really long and losing her friends (which I think Tiki also mentioned which is accurate for the manaketes). So, I have read them, don't remember them all, but I do remember some of them.

 

I just think that Nowi at the very least, was designed with some level of fanservice in mind. Her outfit kinda fits that idea. Tharja however is less fanservicy but still remains in that domain due to her constant fixation on Robin (which doesn't even make sense if they get together since she treats her and Robin's child like total doodoo butts). So in reality, you're right, they aren't just fanservice, I miss spoke. However they do however have some fanservice.

 

Tharja's super creep ends at Robin (possibly Noire x her father, but that's another can of worms entirely).  She's one of those characters where you'd need to read every single one of her supports, because there's a running theme in most of them.  And weirdly enough, Tharja and Nowi's support is surprisingly sweet.  While both of their wardrobes cause me to raise an eyebrow, their supports do their job in making them actual characters.

If you want pure fanservice in terms of supports/personality, look no further than Anna.

[Hanes]

Because if we are speaking about the series, they are...

From everything that lead up to them it was all great (excluding FE12 because it was only released in Japan), the step on the western market with FE7 started great and that's why it is loved by everyone. 

FE8 followed up well and was a bit easier but it allowed newer players to settle in since this was only the 2nd game in the west.

Then path of radiance was not the best but it did alright and then FE10 came and it did very well, see the effects of it, Ike is super popular and it's one good game it has flaw sure but it's good.

Then FE11 came and it was a setback it definitely was a drop in quality but it still did alright

FE12 didn't exist here and then came the next 2 games...

Awakening has fast gameplay and that's all it has for it, everything you can say about this game is it's gameplay but the worst part obviously is it's plot and characters. People pretend this is an overrated complaint but it is not, it has been said so many times because it's truer than 2+2=4. 

Fates came in with a worse story and fast gameplay so you can quickly get back from that BS death in conquest or so you can skip through all of Birthright or quickly replay again revecrapations. Not only that but the characters are worse and some are even copypasted from FE13. 

And let's now go back...

FE1 decent for it's time and virtually the first SRPG ever.

FE2 it's the 2nd game, Zelda and Mario did this too, it has flaws but it's criticized too much from standing out.

FE3 is a more fun FE1 + many more chapters, this much on a SNES cartridge deserves merit.

FE4's story and characters are great, the previous ones had a barebones story but this one is coming in full power and it does so well, it's biggest problem is it's lengthy levels.

FE5 was really hard but it goes with the plot nicely so it's a good combination although it has some big issues, fatigue could just not exist and the gaidens could not be so secretive or strange or even all that important.

Let's jump back forward...

FE15 gets so much hate for "being a remake of a 20 year old game" despite it having an actually good stoy and realistic characters (Well Celica I  mean seriously, I get Eirika trusting a friend but I dont get Celica's trusting a purple someone who sent both his daughters to Duma as tribute) it's gameplay is also actually pretty well, "oh no nuibabababa's mountain is so hard I can't go around it evading the medusa's niuuuuuu worst game design ever" *Awakening wants to show you it's giant tree map in lunatic*

Hopes for FE16 are...

Really good, I know the avatar will be there but I don't mind that, I hope the story is good or not like FE14's at the very least, I feel like it will still have the anime stereotypes in them and I'm not going to like that. I want good characters not an interactive anime.

[QuoteSoda]

On 28/12/2018 at 3:14 AM, Critical Sniper said:

story and characters are great

I did not Play the entirety of FE4 soo i dont know the characters of the second Generation Well,But can someone refresh me the story of geneology? I remenber not beaing soo great as people says,i dont care much about Story of RPG's (shame on me if you want)soo i am more about what the game gives me about gameplay and music and others things

[Ottservia]

On 12/28/2018 at 12:14 AM, Critical Sniper said:

FE15 gets so much hate for "being a remake of a 20 year old game" despite it having an actually good stoy and realistic characters

you know this is something I have to disagree with especially when you say awakening's story is supposedly worse than SoV. SoV's story has good PRESENTATION not a good story. Okay well SoV's story isn't by any means horrific or as big a dumpster fire as fates' story but it is by far worse than awakening's story to me for one simple reason. SoV contradicts itself while awakening does not. I mean for a story that's trying for some kind of "moral ambiguity" it is far too afraid to paint It's main hero in any sort of negative light no matter how much that contradicts the story's themes.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Otts486

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

you know this is something I have to disagree with especially when you say awakening's story is supposedly worse than SoV. SoV's story has good PRESENTATION not a good story. Okay well SoV's story isn't by any means horrific or as big a dumpster fire as fates' story but it is by far worse than awakening's story to me for one simple reason. SoV contradicts itself while awakening does not. I mean for a story that's trying for some kind of "moral ambiguity" it is far too afraid to paint It's main hero in any sort of negative light no matter how much that contradicts the story's themes.

Pretty much. I honestly feel like the story of SoV fails in comparison to Awakening, which NAILS the themes of Awakening every step of the way. 

Even the concept that people complain about how your choices affect nothing is sticking with the theme of Awakening being that you fight destiny. And the case of how the characters of Awakening work together with bonds and relationships being their main source of strength, while the enemies don't get perfectly shown through Pair Up.

[Ottservia]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Pretty much. I honestly feel like the story of SoV fails in comparison to Awakening, which NAILS the themes of Awakening every step of the way. 

Even the concept that people complain about how your choices affect nothing is sticking with the theme of Awakening being that you fight destiny. And the case of how the characters of Awakening work together with bonds and relationships being their main source of strength, while the enemies don't get perfectly shown through Pair Up.

exactly hell the your decision not effecting whether emmeryn lives or dies actually does play in very nicely with the themes especially given the context of the scene. You tried to defy Emmeryn's fate of being killed and the first time you succeeded while second time you did not no matter how hard you tried to prevent it. It shows that no matter how much you try you cannot change what is already written. Emmeryn was fated to die and despite your and Lucina's best efforts ultimately fate does not like to deviate far from it's chosen destination. Honestly I could go on all day about the themes of awakening and SoV and how they were handled in each but this isn't the thread for that.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Otts486

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, QuoteSoda said:

I did not Play the entirety of FE4 soo i dont know the characters of the second Generation Well,But can someone refresh me the story of geneology? I remenber not beaing soo great as people says,i dont care much about Story of RPG's (shame on me if you want)soo i am more about what the game gives me about gameplay and music and others things

It's complicated. FE4 has a lot of moving parts to its story as far as the big players are concerned. It's definitely the most politically heavy Fire Emblem by a fair margin.

The main thing about its story is that the singular game takes place over the course of about 20 years.

Spoiler

Cliff notes of Gen 1 of FE4:

- A long suppressed cult that worships an Earth Dragon(Loptyr) is attempting to resurrect him via the bloodlines of Jugdral, knowing that Loptyr's blood still lives on in some humans in Jugdral. Their main target of manipulation is Arvis, head of the Velthomer house and secret carrier of Loptyr's blood.

- The leader of the cult, Manfroy, is working behind the scenes, and promises power and riches to major houses in Jugdral, namely Dozel, Freege, Thracia and Velthomer. Freege and Dozel assassinate Kurth, prince of the Grannvale kingdom, the central-most, and possibly the most respected kingdom in Jugdral, causing major unrest on the continent. There's some stuff with Isaach going on here as well, as it was at war with Grannvale under dubious circumstances.

- Then the game's proper story starts when Adean, a noblewoman and a friend of Sigurd's, is captured by a hostile kingdom by the name of Verdane. Sigurd, lord of Chalphy, one of the smaller houses of Grannvale, goes to war with Verdane in order to rescue her. Along the way, he is also confronted by the kingdom of Agustria, another kingdom trying to use the chaos of Jugdral in order to grab power.

- While in Verdane, Sigurd encounters the Lopto Sect for the first time and meets his wife Deirdre, who carries the blood of both Naga(The same one from the other FEs) and Loptyr, and the secret half-sister of Arvis.

- Sigurd then basically goes on a personal crusade against the corrupt kingdoms of Jugdral with his army. He eventually has to kill his best friend, who is a vassal of Agustria's royal family. Around this time, Sigurd and his father are blamed for the assassination of Kurth, and they're used as a scapegoat to unify Jugdral under the secret alliance that the Lopto Sect is forming. ALSO around this time, Manfroy kidnaps Deirdre, and brainwashes her.

- Sigurd spends some time on the run in Silessia, one of the few kingdoms that still allies themselves with him, before turning around and deciding to take out the heads of Dozel and Freege. Sigurd's father, brother-in-law and sister all die in this final conflict, and Arvis betrays Freege and Dozel to help Sigurd.

- However, he does this to grab more power, and to be able to say he's the one who finished off Sigurd and ended the war. As he confronts Sigurd, it's revealed that the brainwashed Deirdre was married off to Arvis, and she has since given birth Julius, who amounts to the anti-Christ because of their Loptry blood. She also gives birth to Julia, a girl with full Naga blood and the power to destroy Loptyr.

- Sigurd's army is executed in the courtyard of Belhalla, and Arvis establishes the Granvalle Empire.

Then gen 2 kind of follows a typical FE plot. It's about the children of gen 1 destroying the Granvalle Empire, stopping the Lopto Sect, and killing Julius. You learn some things about gen 1 characters, like how Teeny survived Belhalla and was tortured to death by her aunt, Holsety took over Llewyn's dead body in order to help Seliph, and that Arvis was completely unaware of everything Manfroy was doing to him.

It's much darker than other FEs, and things like mass child murder are plot points in the Jugdral stories.

The part where FE4 really doesn't fuck around with its story telling(At least for gen 1) is why people like it so much. There's... a lot to keep track of, and things like Sigurd being a deconstruction of the typical FE lord are things people enjoy a lot. And the catharsis that comes with gen 2 finally bringing peace to Jugdral after Sigurd failed so tragically helps even the low points feel like there's an impact their actions.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Slumber

[Shrimpica]

 

19 hours ago, Slumber said:

It's complicated. FE4 has a lot of moving parts to its story as far as the big players are concerned. It's definitely the most politically heavy Fire Emblem by a fair margin.

In Gen1. FE4 drops the ball hard when Gen2 comes around and all Politics and stuff doeasn't matter anymore. It becomes typical we good vs. them bad.

 

On the topic in general, i notice that alot of people complain about Story in newer FE, but let's be honest, Fe never had any really good Story. The only games i would call good Storywise are Tellius and Jugdral...

and even they have stains on them like

Blood Contract in Tellius and the whole of Gen2 in Jugdral

. So i really don't get that complaint. Even if Fates story is another levels of bad.

What Fates did really wrong however is the shoved in fanservice. FE always had fanservice (especially legservice), but never had shoved in Panty and thong shots like Fates did. Those are really really annoying. I love CQ gameplay to death, and for me it's the best gameplay Series wide, but those random shots are a really stain on an otherwise amazing experience. And i can see how it can put people really off.

[NekoKnight]

On 12/30/2018 at 6:49 AM, Otts486 said:

exactly hell the your decision not effecting whether emmeryn lives or dies actually does play in very nicely with the themes especially given the context of the scene. You tried to defy Emmeryn's fate of being killed and the first time you succeeded while second time you did not no matter how hard you tried to prevent it. It shows that no matter how much you try you cannot change what is already written. Emmeryn was fated to die and despite your and Lucina's best efforts ultimately fate does not like to deviate far from its chosen destination.

How can your choices being irrelevant be consistent with Awakening's theme? The point of the entire story is you defy fate by defeating Validar and Grima.

It's not really a solid theme if your conclusion is "sometimes you can change fate and sometimes you can't".

Edited December 31, 2018 by NekoKnight