May I ask why some Fire Emblem fans act like Awakening and Fates were the worst thing to happen to the series?

[Ottservia]

33 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

How can your choices being irrelevant be consistent with Awakening's theme? The point of the entire story is you defy fate by defeating Validar and Grima.

It's not really a solid theme if your conclusion is "sometimes you can change fate and sometimes you can't".

normally you would be right if context/stakes/tension were not important. Here’s the rub. The main point of that scene is to get you to question whether or not fate can be altered. It’s supposed to subtlely bring the theme to the forefront of your mind. In a sense the game is intentionally contradicting itself for the sake of further exploring its own themes. This is an example of a situation where fate can’t be altered or rather its an example where you failed to alter fate due to some unknown factor(maybe your bonds not being strong enough I dunno). This failure is supposed to stick with you as you go along and progress through the story. Its there in the back of your mind and when scenarios regarding that same question of “can fate be altered?” Come up you doubt yourself because when you tried to alter it once before you failed so is this time any different? Can fate be altered? You begin to question yourself because of the failure planting those seeds of doubt. You begin to think fate can’t be altered and you should just succumb to the fate of grima. However, after reflecting on that failure and remembering to trust in your comrades, You learn from your mistakes that prevented you from altering fate before. Now with renewed confidence and sense of purpose, you are finally able to fight fate head on and truly change the course of your own destiny.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Otts486

[omegaxis1]

19 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

How can your choices being irrelevant be consistent with Awakening's theme? The point of the entire story is you defy fate by defeating Validar and Grima.

It's not really a solid theme if your conclusion is "sometimes you can change fate and sometimes you can't".

How do you not see it? The entire time, every time we are fighting, we are ultimately at a point where destiny ends up showing that it cannot be overcome. Because no matter how much you struggle, destiny cannot be overturned. But upon the end, when you defeat Grima, you have the choice, because by defeating Grima, you defeated destiny. By defeating destiny, you have the final choice show that fate CAN be altered. 

[ArgentSable]

28 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

How do you not see it? The entire time, every time we are fighting, we are ultimately at a point where destiny ends up showing that it cannot be overcome. Because no matter how much you struggle, destiny cannot be overturned. But upon the end, when you defeat Grima, you have the choice, because by defeating Grima, you defeated destiny. By defeating destiny, you have the final choice show that fate CAN be altered. 

This in a nutshell. Don't forget. Grima fucked himself over by defying destiny itself. He decided to revive himself using his future body, not your Robin's, allowing you and the others to remain alive (out of cockiness or whatnot) was his greatest mistake, for he took the destiny he had seen for granted, and chose to hurry opposed to waiting with his near limitless patience (as shown since he's been plotting for around 1k years or so) out of pure hubris. 

[NekoKnight]

1 hour ago, Otts486 said:

This failure is supposed to stick with you as you go along and progress through the story.

Emmeryn dying adds doubt that fate can be avoided, but I don't think there being a player choice was really that effective. Whether you choose to save her or not, Chrom really doesn't do anything differently. In both instances, he's basically frozen with indecision. This goes the same for your other choices in the game not mattering. Robin doesn't die whether or not you choose to sacrifice him in either of the subsequent choices either. 

I don't see the authorial intent in irrelevant player choices being thematic. It seems more like them wanting to let you think you're more involved in the story without really writing different consequences.

Edit: In summary, I agree that Emmeryn dying is thematic because it shows Lucina's efforts only delay the inevitable, BUT irrelevant player choices doesn't feel thematic because the game barely even humors the events changing at all. If your choices similarly delayed the fated events, I could see the purpose behind them.

Edited December 31, 2018 by NekoKnight

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Emmeryn dying adds doubt that fate can be avoided, but I don't think there being a player choice was really that effective. Whether you choose to save her or not, Chrom really doesn't do anything differently. In both instances, he's basically frozen with indecision. This goes the same for your other choices in the game not mattering. Robin doesn't die whether or not you choose to sacrifice him in either of the subsequent choices either. 

While I'm not thinking of the overarching implications of the choices, I do have to agree the small handful of them the player is given is pretty worthless and unnecessary. None of them affect anything, except the last, which is a sinkhole- on the surface the choices seem sound, but press against it with the right pressure/answer, and you see it is entirely hollow.

Now if I'm playing something like a Shin Megami Tensei game, where there are plenty of times when I can pick an answer of many, some comical, some ordinary, some serious, and much of the time the impact is naught or minimal at best, I'm okay with that. Awakening's fault is that they give too few "choices of nothingness", which leads one to think they might have actual meaning behind them if they're being so sparsely used.

[omegaxis1]

8 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Emmeryn dying adds doubt that fate can be avoided, but I don't think there being a player choice was really that effective. Whether you choose to save her or not, Chrom really doesn't do anything differently. In both instances, he's basically frozen with indecision. This goes the same for your other choices in the game not mattering. Robin doesn't die whether or not you choose to sacrifice him in either of the subsequent choices either. 

I don't see the authorial intent in irrelevant player choices being thematic. It seems more like them wanting to let you think you're more involved in the story without really writing different consequences.

Edit: In summary, I agree that Emmeryn dying is thematic because it shows Lucina's efforts only delay the inevitable, BUT irrelevant player choices doesn't feel thematic because the game barely even humors the events changing at all. If your choices similarly delayed the fated events, I could see the purpose behind them.

 

31 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

While I'm not thinking of the overarching implications of the choices, I do have to agree the small handful of them the player is given is pretty worthless and unnecessary. None of them affect anything, except the last, which is a sinkhole- on the surface the choices seem sound, but press against it with the right pressure/answer, and you see it is entirely hollow.

Now if I'm playing something like a Shin Megami Tensei game, where there are plenty of times when I can pick an answer of many, some comical, some ordinary, some serious, and much of the time the impact is naught or minimal at best, I'm okay with that. Awakening's fault is that they give too few "choices of nothingness", which leads one to think they might have actual meaning behind them if they're being so sparsely used.

Again, you're missing the point. The choices that don't matter until the end perfectly reflects how you are struggling to fight what is fated to happen. Validar and Grima constantly express how everything you do or CHOOSE to do is pointless because it changes absolutely nothing. Dialogue changes, but the overall thing is unaffected. But the final choice upon defeating Grima is the choice that changes something because it is only at the end that you prove that destiny CAN be overcome. 

If the choices actually DOES change something and affect the story, then you are breaking the theme of Awakening in the end.

[NekoKnight]

54 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Again, you're missing the point. The choices that don't matter until the end perfectly reflects how you are struggling to fight what is fated to happen. Validar and Grima constantly express how everything you do or CHOOSE to do is pointless because it changes absolutely nothing. Dialogue changes, but the overall thing is unaffected. But the final choice upon defeating Grima is the choice that changes something because it is only at the end that you prove that destiny CAN be overcome. 

If the choices actually DOES change something and affect the story, then you are breaking the theme of Awakening in the end.

Thanks for ignoring the content of my post. I stated why I doubt the authorial intent. Even your last choice doesn't matter because Robin lives either way.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Thanks for ignoring the content of my post. I stated why I doubt the authorial intent. Even your last choice doesn't matter because Robin lives either way.

Not necessarily. One thing I've come to understand is that both endings are very open-ended. And by changing your perspective on it and look at it in a way, it can change the meaning. Robin wakes up to see Lissa and Chrom again, but who's to say that Robin even remembers them? Or anyone at this point? Robin could end up being amnesiac again. Friends and family suffer as a result and Robin struggles with the idea that he's in a world that he doesn't understand. 

And if Robin seals Grima, nothing says that they can't find another way to put a stop to Grima for good or make the seal be permanent. 

[Slumber]

14 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And if Robin seals Grima, nothing says that they can't find another way to put a stop to Grima for good or make the seal be permanent. 

I'll give you the first one, since there's so little to it that you can take it any way you want, but this is silly. 

Literally any ending where the world the story takes place in doesn't end could be considered open ended based on this criteria. Who's to say that the super pissed off dragons haven't figured out how to open Dragon Gates on their end and are coming to destroy Elibe? Who's to say that Jugdral wasn't completely destroyed because they missed some descendents of Galle running around and Loptyr came back? Who's to say Ashunera didn't split again and Ashera destroyed Tellius for real down the line? I dunno man, those endings were so open ended. 

When the game keeps railing you with one message, which, in this case, is "Grima can only kill itself", you have to take it at face value, especially when there's no evidence to the contrary. If Naga or anyone else with the authority to say such things says "This is the only way to kill Grima and another generation will be doomed 1000 down the line if you seal him", then that's exactly what they mean. Otherwise you're just pulling explanations out of your ass, and you might as well just be posting fanfiction. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I'll give you the first one, since there's so little to it that you can take it any way you want, but this is silly. 

Literally any ending where the world the story takes place in doesn't end could be considered open ended based on this criteria. Who's to say that the dragons in Arcadia haven't figured out how to open Dragon Gates on their end and are coming to destroy Elibe? Who's to say that Jugdral wasn't completely destroyed because they missed some descendents of Galle running around and Loptyr came back? Who's to say Ashunera didn't split again and Ashera destroyed Tellius for real down the line? I dunno man, those endings were so open ended. 

When the game keeps railing you with one message, which, in this case, is "Grima can only kill itself", you have to take it at face value, especially when there's no evidence to the contrary. If Naga or anyone else with the authority to say such things says "This is the only way to kill Grima and another generation will be doomed 1000 down the line if you seal him", then that's exactly what they mean. Otherwise you're just pulling explanations out of your ass, and you might as well just be posting fanfiction. 

8

I mean, this is similar to Loptous and Medeus, where both claim that they would return after they are defeated, but while Medeus returns once, Loptous never does. Medeus says it again after he's beaten in New Mystery, but Gotoh talks like Medeus is gone forever, which is odd, as I don't see why Medeus would actually die when he's stronger than other Earth Dragons now, and oughta still have that huge life force. But Medeus doesn't return apparently after that. 

The developers can simply make a way for enemies to return, so if an ending can be viewed openly, the possibility always exists if a sequel comes out or a future story comes out.

[Pengaius]

7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, this is similar to Loptous and Medeus, where both claim that they would return after they are defeated, but while Medeus returns once, Loptous never does. Medeus says it again after he's beaten in New Mystery, but Gotoh talks like Medeus is gone forever, which is odd, as I don't see why Medeus would actually die when he's stronger than other Earth Dragons now, and oughta still have that huge life force. But Medeus doesn't return apparently after that. 

 

That might just be an expression of how powerful Medeus and Loptous think they are, Medeus especially as in shadow dragon, Marth beats his ass, then three years later he's back and he's all like you puny human you cannot defeat me, SPOILER ALERT, Marth wins, again. 

Yes it's done so that a sequel game can be made if needed, but it's also there as futile revenge of the villain, y'know it's like I'll get you for this protagonist if it's the last thing I do.

(Also Gotoh's a friggin asshole)

 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Pengaius said:

That might just be an expression of how powerful Medeus and Loptous think they are, Medeus especially as in shadow dragon, Marth beats his ass, then three years later he's back and he's all like you puny human you cannot defeat me, SPOILER ALERT, Marth wins, again. 

Yes it's done so that a sequel game can be made if needed, but it's also there as futile revenge of the villain, y'know it's like I'll get you for this protagonist if it's the last thing I do.

(Also Gotoh's a friggin asshole)

2

This seems more to the case on how Kaga designed most of his stories in the case where the godly evil the arises is a result of mankind's own evil, where Medeus and Loptous are meant to represent some personification of mankind's evil. Both revived because of mankind's evil after all. 

But ultimately, just because the claim is that they will return, it isn't meaning that they actually will, as neither Loptous nor Medeus do return after the final time they are beaten. So overall, Grima is a similar case, as just because he has a chance to return doesn't mean he will return. 

[NekoKnight]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

So overall, Grima is a similar case, as just because he has a chance to return doesn't mean he will return. 

That's not similar at all. The situation with Grima is stated to be a binary choice. Robin either dies to erase Grima forever or Grima WILL return and it becomes someone else's problem. None of the characters state this in uncertain terms. The weight of the decision is only there because they believe Robin's death is the only thing stopping Grima from coming back.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

That's not similar at all. The situation with Grima is stated to be a binary choice. Robin either dies to erase Grima forever or Grima WILL return and it becomes someone else's problem. None of the characters state this in uncertain terms. The weight of the decision is only there because they believe Robin's death is the only thing stopping Grima from coming back.

Except this is again not necessarily true. Unless they make an Awakening sequel, Grima doesn't come back. The other ending is only in regards to whether a sequel will get made or not. This is exactly like Loptous, as just because Loptous says that he will come back, and his bloodline could still have continued, it doesn't mean that he does come back. It's all a matter of whether they will make a sequel to Genealogy.

[NekoKnight]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Except this is again not necessarily true. Unless they make an Awakening sequel, Grima doesn't come back. The other ending is only in regards to whether a sequel will get made or not. This is exactly like Loptous, as just because Loptous says that he will come back, and his bloodline could still have continued, it doesn't mean that he does come back. It's all a matter of whether they will make a sequel to Genealogy.

That's not comparable. The situation with Grima is not a villain boasting about their power, unable to comprehend their impending doom. We know Grima will come back because Naga says she can only temporarily seal him. You can't just make up a different ending on the speculation that a sequel could retcon it.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

That's not comparable. The situation with Grima is not a villain boasting about their power, unable to comprehend their impending doom. We know Grima will come back because Naga says she can only temporarily seal him. You can't just make up a different ending on the speculation that a sequel could retcon it.

No, I'm saying that if there's no sequel, there's no threat. If there's no sequel, then whether Grima comes back or not if he's sealed is open for interpretation. It is comparable to Loptous, as Loptous doesn't die. He can't die so long as his blood remains in the world. Thanks to Saias existing, he probably inherited Minor Loptous Blood, so Loptous has a way to come back, but he doesn't come back because there isn't any Jugdral game made anymore.

[NekoKnight]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

No, I'm saying that if there's no sequel, there's no threat. If there's no sequel, then whether Grima comes back or not if he's sealed is open for interpretation. It is comparable to Loptous, as Loptous doesn't die. He can't die so long as his blood remains in the world. Thanks to Saias existing, he probably inherited Minor Loptous Blood, so Loptous has a way to come back, but he doesn't come back because there isn't any Jugdral game made anymore.

I'm not sure why you're even making this argument then. Of course Grima can't come back if there is no sequel, but if there was a sequel and it didn't retcon the ending of Awakening, then Grima would come back, as stated by a reputable source in the game. Maybe you could theorize that Loptous is potentially able to come back because there are elements within the game that imply it's possible. What is your source within Awakening that suggests there could be a different conclusion than the two it gives you (Grima dies by Robin's hand or he gets sealed for 1000 years by Naga's power)?

 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm not sure why you're even making this argument then. Of course Grima can't come back if there is no sequel, but if there was a sequel and it didn't retcon the ending of Awakening, then Grima would come back, as stated by a reputable source in the game. Maybe you could theorize that Loptous is potentially able to come back because there are elements within the game that imply it's possible. What is your source within Awakening that suggests there could be a different conclusion than the two it gives you (Grima dies by Robin's hand or he gets sealed for 1000 years by Naga's power)?

1

Fun fact, the seal has no actual time limit. Naga never mentions any form of time limit at all to sealing Grima. Meaning that Grima's sealing is indefinite.

[NekoKnight]

28 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Fun fact, the seal has no actual time limit. Naga never mentions any form of time limit at all to sealing Grima. Meaning that Grima's sealing is indefinite.

From chapter 24:

Quote

Naga: Alas, Grima cannot be slain. Sleep alone can be your victory. Just as your ancestor put the fell dragon to sleep a millennium ago

A millennium is 1000 years. Keep avoiding the question and stating misunderstandings about the game script, I guess.

Edited January 1, 2019 by NekoKnight

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

From chapter 24:

A millennium is 1000 years. Keep moving the goalposts, I guess.

MInd reading that line again? I think you might have missed the context. She doesn't say that there was a time limit, only that he was put to sleep a thousand years ago since it's been a thousand years since Grima was sealed and now he's back again. 

[Ottservia]

On 12/31/2018 at 1:32 AM, NekoKnight said:

Emmeryn dying adds doubt that fate can be avoided, but I don't think there being a player choice was really that effective. Whether you choose to save her or not, Chrom really doesn't do anything differently. In both instances, he's basically frozen with indecision. This goes the same for your other choices in the game not mattering. Robin doesn't die whether or not you choose to sacrifice him in either of the subsequent choices either. 

I don't see the authorial intent in irrelevant player choices being thematic. It seems more like them wanting to let you think you're more involved in the story without really writing different consequences.

Edit: In summary, I agree that Emmeryn dying is thematic because it shows Lucina's efforts only delay the inevitable, BUT irrelevant player choices doesn't feel thematic because the game barely even humors the events changing at all. If your choices similarly delayed the fated events, I could see the purpose behind them.

I never said awakening's handling of these themes was perfect by any stretch. However I will say the game does express these themes competently at the very least. The final choice still matters at the end of the day just because the end result is the same doesn't detract from the overall themes of the story. The fact of the matter is that you have that choice in the first place gets the message that fate can be altered just fine. I mean the 'fate' Robin is trying to alter here is grima's Resurrection and his subsequent take over of the world. It was Robin's fate to become grima as that was the reason he/she was born into this world to begin with. According to fate and events pre-determined, Robin was always fated to become grima and bring ruin to the world. However, with the help of his/her comrades, belief in themselves, and learning from their experiences, they are able to overcome that fate and make a choice. Eradicate Grima for good or just seal him away for really long time. Either way the fact that you have that choice speaks volumes of what the game is trying to say about fate and whether or not it can altered.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Otts486

[NekoKnight]

Just now, Otts486 said:

I never said awakening's handling of these themes was perfect by any stretch. However I will say the game does express these themes competently at the very least. The final choice still matters at the end of the day just because the end result is the same doesn't detract from the overall themes of the story. The fact of the matter is that you have that choice in the first place gets the message that fate can be altered just fine. I mean the 'fate' Robin is trying to alter here is grima's Resurrection and his subsequent take over of the world. It was Robin's fate to become grima as that was the reason he/she was born into this world to begin with. According to fate and events pre-determined, Robin was always fated to become grima and bring ruin to the world. However, with the help of his/her comrades, belief in themselves, and learning from their experiences, they are able to overcome that fate and make a choice. Eradicate Grima for good or just seal him away for really long time. Either way the fact that you have that choice speaks volumes of what the game is trying to say about fate and whether or not it can altered.

We aren't in disagreement. I understand the theme of the game. I was just saying that irrelevant player choices were probably not an intentional part of the theme.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

We aren't in disagreement. I understand the theme of the game. I was just saying that irrelevant player choices were probably not an intentional part of the theme.

fair enough but even so I'm saying those player choices aren't necessarily irrelevant. Intentional or no they still play a key part in expressing the game's theme of fatalism vs free will. 

To sort of add on to my previous post:

The choice at the end is your "reward" so to speak for overcoming fate. Now that you've overcome your fate, you are allowed to decide the fate of the world. Though here's the interesting thing, both options presented are 'good' options even the one where robin doesn't sacrifice themselves. Cause of the nature of the overall theme of "overcoming fate", it just means you'll just have to find another way to break the cycle of always being fated to battle grima over and over again. It's just another fate to overcome and you just have to trust in later generations to be able to find the answer to overcome that fate(which is yet another theme of awakening but that's beside the point).

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Otts486 said:

fair enough but even so I'm saying those player choices aren't necessarily irrelevant. Intentional or no they still play a key part in expressing the game's theme of fatalism vs free will. 

To sort of add on to my previous post:

The choice at the end is your "reward" so to speak for overcoming fate. Now that you've overcome your fate, you are allowed to decide the fate of the world. Though here's the interesting thing, both options presented are 'good' options even the one where robin doesn't sacrifice themselves. Cause of the nature of the overall theme of "overcoming fate", it just means you'll just have to find another way to break the cycle of always being fated to battle grima over and over again. It's just another fate to overcome and you just have to trust in later generations to be able to find the answer to overcome that fate(which is yet another theme of awakening but that's beside the point).

Adding onto this, it goes with some quotes used in Xenoblade Chronicles by Shulk:

Quote

"I won't decide. The future should be decided by each and every person in the world. And so what I... No what we wish for is... A world with no Gods!"
-

"I don't know what the future holds. But that means, I can imagine all the possibilities."

This can actually tie into what Chrom believes. Just because Grima can come back doesn't mean that they won't be able to stop him. The future is now an unknown. This is a world that was freed from its destined fate, meaning that anything is possible. 

And I think that was an intention for the writers. 

[Ottservia]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Adding onto this, it goes with some quotes used in Xenoblade Chronicles by Shulk:

This can actually tie into what Chrom believes. Just because Grima can come back doesn't mean that they won't be able to stop him. The future is now an unknown. This is a world that was freed from its destined fate, meaning that anything is possible. 

And I think that was an intention for the writers. 

yeah exactly(I really need to get around to playing the original xenoblade chronicles). Honestly the more I think about it, the more I realize that awakening's story is actually really really good if only underdeveloped.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Otts486