Beast units discussion/speculation thread

[SuperNova125]

Soon enough we will be having beast units coming to the game and a lot of people must be excited for them since they are the only brand new weapon type added since launch (I am not counting coloured bows and this type of stuff), so here is a topic to talk about them.

Below I tried to list some things we do know about them:

• The game calls them in skills like Close defence and weapons like Thöng and Hoarfrost knife beast damage
• This means that they are melee attackers and also can use distant counter (this is also shown in that small gameplay and isn't that hard to guess but I listed it still)
• They will follow the weapon triangle as shown.
• They transform at the beginning of the turn and not only in combat as manaketes(how isn't known yet)
• The extra movement they get counts as a movement buff, (similar to how Azura's grey waves work) and probably won't stack with other movement buffs.

This is all I could find if I missed something feel free to mention it below.  Here is a pic from the Feh channel.

 

Before I post this I checked the main heroes page again and I saw a topic about the RD Banner and just to make myself clear this topic is about how beast units will work gameplaywise and not about the new Banner.

Edited February 8, 2020 by SuperNova125

[Anacybele]

All I can say is Ranulf needs to be on this banner too. He's just as important as Tibarn and Nailah, if not more important.

[XRay]

I hope they transform consistently rather than transforming only on some turns. If they transform at the start of every Player Phase or Enemy Phase, then that is fine since they are transforming every turn, but if they transform only on odd or even turns, I would just bench them unless their combat performance is still the same as their transformed state.

[SuperNova125]

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

I hope they transform consistently rather than transforming only on some turns. If they transform at the start of every Player Phase or Enemy Phase, then that is fine since they are transforming every turn, but if they transform only on odd or even turns, I would just bench them unless their combat performance is still the same as their transformed state.

Another thing I heard is that they could be transforming when they have their special ready but that is a theory I came across so I didn't write it in my original post.

[Mercakete]

9 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

Another thing I heard is that they could be transforming when they have their special ready but that is a theory I came across so I didn't write it in my original post.

I was going to mention that, too, yeah. It makes sense, but if they can't attack at all until they're transformed, then that does make them...interesting. Since they're so powerful in their beast forms, this would balance them, to a degree. I think it's more likely that they'll have much weaker offensive capabilities in their "human" forms, but maintain defensive stats in both forms. That way, they can survive until their specials are charged. It also makes things like Aether and Miracle impractical, depending on the unit (Miracle may be good on herons; I dunno) but I kind of like that. Shakes up the gameplay a little, and adds to that rift of "what works well for Beorc doesn't necessarily work well for Laguz." Personally, I wonder how units like the Taguel will be implemented. They function like manaketes in their home game, using a stone to transform in combat. (Of course, Laguz Stones also exist in their home games, but IS seems to have gone the other route.) However, they are distinctly beasts, not dragons. So, will they adopt the Laguz way of doing things, or will Beaststones be implemented later down the road?

[May]

Their weapon is probably called 'beast' or 'beast damage' just from the weapon description of Dark Aura.  

[Zihark11]

ive got my orbs saved up plus still can buy fjorms package of orbs. ill be getting tibarn one way or another. just need Naesala as well and ill be so happy. 

[TheNiddo]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

All I can say is Ranulf needs to be on this banner too. He's just as important as Tibarn and Nailah, if not more important.

They're not going to frontload all of the popular/important laguz into the first banner. Personally I'm expecting it only to be royals because while they're known/somewhat popular, outside of Tibarn they're not massively popular. I'm not expecting Ranulf, Lethe, Mordecai, etc to be on it. Ranulf makes too much sense as the star of another banner. Probably no Herons either, those will come later as dancers/singer type units. Not sure about dragon laguz this time around, kinda expecting the dragon king to be the Mythic Hero if its not Micaiah/final boss of FE10 but otherwise I don't think we'll get any this time around. 

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

I hope they transform consistently rather than transforming only on some turns. If they transform at the start of every Player Phase or Enemy Phase, then that is fine since they are transforming every turn, but if they transform only on odd or even turns, I would just bench them unless their combat performance is still the same as their transformed state.

Unless the unit detransforms after a single round of combat (which would totally suck), it can't be either of those because we see both a player phase and an enemy phase as well as both an odd turn and an even turn during the clip shown in the Feh Channel.

 

1 hour ago, SuperNova125 said:

Another thing I heard is that they could be transforming when they have their special ready but that is a theory I came across so I didn't write it in my original post.

I know I mentioned this possibility in the Feh Channel thread.

There's also the possibility that the condition is specific to the equipped weapon.

[Anacybele]

4 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

They're not going to frontload all of the popular/important laguz into the first banner. Personally I'm expecting it only to be royals because while they're known/somewhat popular, outside of Tibarn they're not massively popular. I'm not expecting Ranulf, Lethe, Mordecai, etc to be on it. Ranulf makes too much sense as the star of another banner. Probably no Herons either, those will come later as dancers/singer type units. Not sure about dragon laguz this time around, kinda expecting the dragon king to be the Mythic Hero if its not Micaiah/final boss of FE10 but otherwise I don't think we'll get any this time around. 

...I do not understand your logic here at all. Ranulf is one of the most requested laguz units and is probably the most popular one besides Tibarn. It'd make no sense to me for him not to be on it. Plus I can see him being a green unit, and since Tibarn is red and Nailah is blue, that already rounds out the banner.

[Opdepov]

What if they have a new type of special?

Ones that start at like 3 or 4, ticking down automatically each turn or when in combat and then activate for transformation and give a boost (like +1 movement on Tibarn there) at the start of the turn? Only inheritable by beasts ofc, or perhaps each beast has its own special.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Falter

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Falter said:

What if they have a new type of special?

Ones that start at like 3 or 4, ticking down automatically each turn or when in combat and then activate for transformation and give a boost (like +1 movement on Tibarn there) at the start of the turn? Only inheritable by beasts ofc, or perhaps each beast has its own special.

Tibarn is shown in the Feh Channel clip activating Draconic Aura.

[XRay]

18 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Unless the unit detransforms after a single round of combat (which would totally suck), it can't be either of those because we see both a player phase and an enemy phase as well as both an odd turn and an even turn during the clip shown in the Feh Channel.

I see. I guess we will just have to wait a little longer until they give us more info on how they work. I just hope they have some consistency in transformation and can transform frequently.

20 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

...I do not understand your logic here at all. Ranulf is one of the most requested laguz units and is probably the most popular one besides Tibarn. It'd make no sense to me for him not to be on it. Plus I can see him being a green unit, and since Tibarn is red and Nailah is blue, that already rounds out the banner.

Intelligent Systems want people to stick around, so it is better to release popular characters spaced out. If they release all the popular characters all at once, some players will get bored and not having anything else to look forward to and may quit the game in a month or two. They could release more alts of popular Laguz characters though to keep things fresh for players who only play Heroes for certain characters.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, XRay said:

Intelligent Systems want people to stick around, so it is better to release popular characters spaced out. If they release all the popular characters all at once, some players will get bored and not having anything else to look forward to and may quit the game in a month or two. They could release more alts of popular Laguz characters though to keep things fresh for players who only play Heroes for certain characters.

Yeah, and there would still be other popular beast units left if the banner was just Ranulf, Reyson, Tibarn, and Nailah. Lethe, Kaden, Keaton, and Seikie are highly requested too.

[SuperNova125]

How do beasts work in the tellius games? I haven't played these games yet, but they might mirror this. As for the awakening fates they will most likely fall under the same system. I am also wondering how herons (I THINK they can't fight) and the laguz dragons will work.

[Mercakete]

19 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

How do beasts work in the tellius games? I haven't played these games yet, but they might mirror this. As for the awakening fates they will most likely fall under the same system. I am also wondering how herons (I THINK they can't fight) and the laguz dragons will work.

There's a gauge that fills up over time from being attacked/turn count, or you can use a laguz stone. I can't remember very clearly, but I think in 10 they could fight in their humanoid forms (albeit not very well), but in 9, they were basically helpless unless transformed. There was also a skill that let them transform at will and stay transformed, but that was unique to rulers. I think it's fairly safe to say that while the Heroes version will reflect the old transformation mechanics, it won't be an exact copy.

I'm in the camp of thinking that they transform when their special is fully changed, but again, Ice Dragon brings up a good theory that requirements change based on the equipped weapon. If they do transform on a full charge, though, Miracle might be a good skill for Laguz, despite its long charge time, since Miracle only gets used up if the unit in question would be KO'd by an attack. You have to suffer through charging it, but then you could potentially stay transformed through the rest of the map.

[Arcphoenix]

21 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

How do beasts work in the tellius games? I haven't played these games yet, but they might mirror this. As for the awakening fates they will most likely fall under the same system. I am also wondering how herons (I THINK they can't fight) and the laguz dragons will work.

There’s a sort of timing to it. Fates and Awakening treat beast units as weapon carriers. They transform in-combat. Beast Units from Tellius transform or detransform out of combat after a certain amount of turns, and this timing is accelerated whenever a round of combat happens. In beast form, a beast unit can attack and counterattack. In “human” form, they can do neither. I think there are stat changes too if I remember right. Someone correct me if I’m wrong

 

Edit: Ninja’d

Edited January 7, 2019 by Arcphoenix

[RexBolt]

19 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

How do beasts work in the tellius games? I haven't played these games yet, but they might mirror this. As for the awakening fates they will most likely fall under the same system. I am also wondering how herons (I THINK they can't fight) and the laguz dragons will work.

They have a "special bar" that starts on a different number for each character. Every turn that bar gains some points and if they took part in combat untransformed they gain a little more points too. When the bar is filled they transform into powerful beast forms, who lose points in the bar every turn until it reaches 0, that's when they become human again the counting up begins anew.

There are items that fill the bar fully (like Laguzstones and some herbs), there are also equipments that make the laguz start the battle as a best and also skills like Halfshift that if equiped will let the unit stay the whole battle as a beast, but with lesser stats.

 

Edit: double ninja'ed

Edited January 7, 2019 by RexBolt

[Arcphoenix]

This post made me check back through some of my unit’s skills. Geirskögul (Brave Lucina’s Prf lance) was also updated 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Arcphoenix

[Mercakete]

12 minutes ago, Arcphoenix said:

This post made me check back through some of my unit’s skills. Geirskögul (Brave Lucina’s Prf lance) was also updated 

Things like this are interesting to think about from various prospectives. For example, here are some of my thoughts:

1. (From the standpoint of "Ylissians designed this to kill Laguz, but Laguz are not present in this game"/mismatched games) This doesn't make any sense. Why would the Ylissians design a weapon that's effective against Laguz if there are no Laguz? How would they even know how to design one for this purpose? Obviously, Taguel function very differently, being more like manaketes in function than Laguz, and while we know they were hunted quite a bit, the style of weapon would have a better effect on manaketes than on Laguz, simply by logic of mechanics.

2. (From the standpoint of Ylissian history) Fascinating. This lance must be from the times when there were a few Laguz about, since we know that there are at least legends of them by the time Emmeryn's reign comes into play.

3. (From a pure mechanics standpoint) This probably has nothing to do with lore. IS is likely just trying to rebalance everything mechanics-wise, giving new life to things once considered obsolete and ensuring that no one type of unit is too powerful. Checks and balances.

All of which talk about the "why" of why this particular weapon has this particular effect, and each one is valid.

[Arcphoenix]

8 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

(From the standpoint of "Ylissians designed this to kill Laguz, but Laguz are not present in this game"/mismatched games) This doesn't make any sense. Why would the Ylissians design a weapon that's effective against Laguz if there are no Laguz? 

It’s a drive buff actually. I do hope some weapons are retroactively made effective against Laguz though 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Arcphoenix

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

1. (From the standpoint of "Ylissians designed this to kill Laguz, but Laguz are not present in this game"/mismatched games) This doesn't make any sense. Why would the Ylissians design a weapon that's effective against Laguz if there are no Laguz? How would they even know how to design one for this purpose? Obviously, Taguel function very differently, being more like manaketes in function than Laguz, and while we know they were hunted quite a bit, the style of weapon would have a better effect on manaketes than on Laguz, simply by logic of mechanics.

Geirskogul's effect is not effective damage. It has Drive Atk 2 and Drive Spd 2, but only affects physical weapons. Since beast weapons are physical, Geirskogul naturally works on them whether or not Ylissians are aware of their existence.

[Mercakete]

10 minutes ago, Arcphoenix said:

It’s a drive buff actually. I do hope some weapons are retroactively made effective against Laguz though 

 

8 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Geirskogul's effect is not effective damage. It has Drive Atk 2 and Drive Spd 2, but only affects physical weapons. Since beast weapons are physical, Geirskogul naturally works on them whether or not Ylissians are aware of their existence.

Ah, I see. Reminds me of how, in the topic for guessing who'll be in the upcoming RD banner, I mentioned how I thought it'd be cool if (when he's introduced) Tormod gets a special tome that buffs untransformed Laguz allies.

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

...I do not understand your logic here at all. Ranulf is one of the most requested laguz units and is probably the most popular one besides Tibarn. It'd make no sense to me for him not to be on it. Plus I can see him being a green unit, and since Tibarn is red and Nailah is blue, that already rounds out the banner.

According to CYL2:

• 58. Tibarn RD (4,274)
• 69. Ranulf PoR (3,427)
• 86. Lethe PoR (2,917)
• 87. Ranulf RD (2,885)
• 109. Tibarn PoR (2,337)
• 125. Nailah (2,086)
• 142. Leanne RD (1,825)

Those are the ones from the top 150. So yeah, second most requested after Tibarn.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

According to CYL2:

• 58. Tibarn RD (4,274)
• 69. Ranulf PoR (3,427)
• 86. Lethe PoR (2,917)
• 87. Ranulf RD (2,885)
• 109. Tibarn PoR (2,337)
• 125. Nailah (2,086)
• 142. Leanne RD (1,825)

Those are the ones from the top 150. So yeah, second most requested after Tibarn.

And if you combine their votes, Ranulf is barely below Tibarn. That kind of surprises me though, I always figured Ranulf was more liked.