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Hi,

I was wondering why everyone seems to think Hinata is trash. He comes usable with good base spd and def, has many pair ups to boost either one or the other and even his mediocre strength with Rinkah pair up (or maybe MoA Hana pair up I don't know her personal pair p bonuses nor MoA's since I used it only once on Mozu who was obviously pair leader).

Hell guys, instead of trash talking about him, look at yourselves kneeling before Dieck/Deke's base stats and shit growths and at Gerik who was Hinata before Hinata was born and whose promotion gains were shit because FE 8 had rather trash promotion gains to compensate for better unit growths. So Gerik comes later in the game than Hinata (45% in the game unlike Hinata's 30-33% in game progression chapter-wise). Gerik couldn't get out of his classline like Hinata can, couldn't get wings like Hinata can even in his buddy seals, needed instant dragonshield if you were to not feed him much exp or early promote him (I tried to use him early promoted as both promotions in chapter 13 Ephraim's route and he was dying to 3 or 4 little soldier attacks in hard mode LOL), Gerik didn't have access to such insane things as tonics and pair up bonuses and guard stance, he was overshadowed in no grind by Seth (like most of the cast), Duessel (maybe even better than Seth without any stat bonuses invested in them cuz diz beiz stats are ameizing and 1 pure water allows him to take the whole ennemy army by himself from his join chapter until he has to face stupid dragonzombies' absurd 30 true damage), Innes in his Eirika join chapter (silver bow and 14-15 speed makes him OHKO/ORKO his whole joining chapter by himself, give him an iron/steel bow for weakling and that's it whilehe can still ORKO dragonzombies at base with a hero bow, which no other unit can pretend to be able to).

Meanwhile Hinata comes at the same level with a weapon that allows him to hit even with his low skill (steel blade in FE TSS is true shit unless you gave 4 body rings to Joshua/6 to Marisa and gave it to them but you might as well go for magic swords or killing edge/shamshir at this point), he can get those insane bonuses from gameplay "improvements" (they aren't in my opinion but 0% growth players who can emulate Fates would say otherwise), he can get boosts to his res, he even has access to a whole class that gives him res base, growth and anti-magic skills on top of the possibility of getting falcon knight's lv 15 skill by endgame if he was given enough exp (meaning you forbid Ryoma use or made it minimal) so he can do what is supposed to be the opposite of his physical tank job if given the chance. Meanwhile Gerik can only kill magic units by himself if given a pure water and if he can double the sages (thanks to tomes insane weight and agic classes having the worst base stats of the whole game though he should be able to double the chapter 17 Fimbulvetr sage before getting 2-3 shot, but don't let him against the trios of druids on open field or against any group with 1 or 2 magic units and 2+ physical units like this should happen by lategame and in the endgame chapter or say goodbye to the best mercenary of GBA FEs since you just killed him).

Ike in RD comes with the same speed growth as Hinata and I think Haar (sorry, GOD) shares the same speed growth too. They have better base stats but in RD they make high level oifeys and leaders close to their base class's max stats to cap them easily but struggle more to max in t3 classes and usually ests or other growing units have very little more stat points than these OP starters except for Edward who is simply the best in his classline if you invest in him, Nolan who's better for endgame than Boyd because of a higher speed average, only tanky unit before long in his team, and the other axe user in DB coming with trash bases and overlevelled for her growths to catch up before the end of part 1, and even then she stays way weakier than Haar for the whole game, not any point on using her outside from dawn brigade exclusive chapters and their objectives don't even give decent BEXP so it's useless to even try and end the levels with every optionnal objective completed, meaning those stat boosters you use on her could be given to Volug instead for x1.5 effectiveness in half beast and x2 in beast (1 dragonshield is 2 to 4 def for him, meanwhile it doesn't allow Jill to go anywhere near an archer or a group o physical ennemies without a few potions/30hp recovery potion, and Volug has twice her base HP or not far from it and still 26+ levels to grow, with lower max stats to use BEXP even better than her, his weakness to fire is irrelevant for most of the game past the 1st chapter he's playable and act 1 endgame maybe but he could as well kill them in 1 hit at that point, + base 9 movement if I'm correct and he can shove unlike Jill, only thing she beats him on is canto). Speaking of which, Hinata is a little like Volug, muscular, fluffy, middling strength and def, high luck and hp, bad res, the only things Volug beats him on for the whole game is spd and skl but Fates likes to give you stat screwed units so Hinata's speed is good for the main campaign in hard (like Nyx's unsalavgeable base stats, even in her specialties she has shit bases and her skill to patch up accuracy needs her to fight at 1 range XD so she get OHKO easier by 20-26 MT physical ennemies a few chapters after she's recruited at most on hard difficulty, hell even Micayah is more usable than her and at least she has utility in her base class and can level up through it even to the point you can get her to 20 in act 1 by spamming her suicide heal and using Laura/potion/herb to heal Micayah, and she can kill most act 1 bosses in 1 hit with her 2 personnal tomes for free exp).

After this whole novel of comparisons between ~comparable~ units between older games and Fates, I hope you understand my point and that you will remember it before thinking ill of him. He isn't stellar by himself, but he comes usable (13 def in chapter 10 is about as much as lv 13-15 MU with HP boon, or def screwed def boon holding the DRAGONSTONE), his issues can be patched or fixed for cheap and his bases carry him for a while. Meanwhile Hana starts with glass cannon issues that will never be fixed by any means (unless you play a solorun Hana and give her all stat boosters including bonus path dragon herbs for her to mimic Gandalf in the prologue of The Lord of The Rings when he talks peacefully with Frodo while playing with smoke).

And after having seen Ryoma again for the first time after like 1.5 year because this game bores me before reaching his recruitment most of the time, I think he has good strength but nothing Hana can't reach (with much higher skill, res and maybe equal to better luck) so if his OP sword didn't carry him he woudn't be so stellar (15 def with a katana for a level 4 male swordmaster is simply unforgivable, it's 2 points higher than Hinata's 13 levels+promotion lower level def with only 11 more speed for a unit supposed to be fast LMFAO any est-type speedy unit should've reached 28-30 by this point, my lv 8 general Setsuna who spent 12 levels as a knight and 7 as a general has 30 as a dark flyer with only 2 points from stat boosters gotten from the herbs I gave her, and everything else isn't high for his level, I bet Hinoka at his level with an equivalent personal weapon would do everything better than him even as a falcon knight with flying and maybe beast weaknesses).

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He's boring, were given little to no reason to explore his character, he has like 1 personality trait.

This is pretty much the general character issue with most characters from this game

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I always did like Hinata more as a Blacksmith, even if he often got RNG-screwed.  Still, my Hinata never got RNG-screwed as much as my Hana.

If there's any reason why Hinata gets hate as a unit (I and a lot of other people seem to be indifferent to his character compared to the more controversial ones like Camilla and Peri), it's precisely because Ryoma overshadows him and Hana with his significantly lower need for investment and very good personal weapon.

That said, it is nice to have a decent tank amidst Birthright's excessively evasion-reliant playable cast, given how Avoid got nerfed.

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Hinata  has only 1 HP and 5 Def over Ryoma at 20/15, losing everywhere else. And Ryoma offers much more with the Rajinto's 1-2 cost free range.

Hinata also suffers from having one of the lowest growth rate totals in Fates- 235, while the royals are 300 or more, and Hana is still 265, with others still yet higher than her.

Oni Savage access is unique, since few have it, but it kisses Hinata's chances of doubling goodbye unless you're a heavy stat stacker. And since there is no Wary Fighter without Knight, Hinata is also liable to be doubled. Not to mention the class line, though unique, lacks good skills and Clubs are sorta meh.

His bases are okay, and he does make at the very least an excellent Defensive Stance battery. Swordmaster means he can give Spd, Oni gives Str and Def, Master of Arms gives a little of both. Coming at level 10, he can promote whenever you get a spare Master Seal.

He is cute though.

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8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Hinata also suffers from having one of the lowest growth rate totals in Fates- 235, while the royals are 300 or more, and Hana is still 265, with others still yet higher than her.

Discounting Gunter, who has the lowest growth rate totals then?

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23 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Discounting Gunter, who has the lowest growth rate totals then?

That would be Fuga, 100, but he like Gunter, 50, is an outlier.

Shura has 190, Reina and Yukimura have 195, given these three units are all old Corrinsexual prepromotes, you can still call them outliers, but not so radically as Gunter and Fuga.

The lowest "normal" character is Setsuna, 225. 

 

Going from lowest to highest, here are all of them for Fates. None of these factor in class growths, which add 55 (Dark Mage/Sorcerer) to 95 (General) in additional growths.:

Spoiler

Gunter: 50 Fuga: 100

Shura: 190 Reina: 195 Yukimura: 195

Setsuna: 225 Nyx: 235 Hinata: 235

Subaki: 250 Selena: 250 Rinkah: 255 Arthur: 255 

Felicia: 260 Flora: 265 Jakob: 265 Hana: 265

Kagero: 270 Scarlet: 270 Peri: 270 Niles: 275 Orochi: 275

Kaze: 280 Keaton: 280 Oboro: 280 Beruka: 280 

Takumi: 285 Silas: 285 Charlotte: 285 Laslow: 285 Benny: 285

Xander: 290 Kaden: 290 Izana: 290 Effie: 295

Ryoma: 300 Elise: 305 Hinoka: 305

Azura: 310 Sakura: 310 Azama: 310 Hayato: 315 Anna: 315

Camilla: 325 Leo: 325 Saizo: 330 Odin: 330

Mozu: 290 (without the +80 of Aptitude)

 

Children (without parents modding the growths)

Hisame: 245 Shigure: 250

Dwyer: 265 Rhajat: 265  Sophie: 280

Midori: 275 Kana: 275 Soleil: 275

Kiragi: 280 Siegbert: 280 Shiro: 285 Caeldori: 285

Velouria: 290 Percy: 295 Ignatius: 295 Forrest: 295

Nina: 300 Ophelia: 305 Selkie: 310 Caeldori: 315

Asugi: 335

 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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I never really got the distaste for Hinata either. Sure Hana might end up better but everyone is viable in Birthright. The game is so easy that Hinata can just go to town on the enemy no matter his stats. 

I certainly don't understand any sort of criticism towards his personality. Hinata is a complete sweetheart, he's incredibly nice, often tries helping others in his supports and he got a very good dynamic with his lord. Even the one time he's angry just shows how nice he is since he's angry out of concern for Takumi. 

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4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I never really got the distaste for Hinata either. Sure Hana might end up better but everyone is viable in Birthright. The game is so easy that Hinata can just go to town on the enemy no matter his stats. 

I certainly don't understand any sort of criticism towards his personality. Hinata is a complete sweetheart, he's incredibly nice, often tries helping others in his supports and he got a very good dynamic with his lord. Even the one time he's angry just shows how nice he is since he's angry out of concern for Takumi. 

His character is bland, but I don't care about his character, I played and loved Radiant Dawnwhich had little characterization. I'm talking about stats, class access, viability, and comparison between other units in other FE with a similar archtype. Gerik and Deke are the closest ones with Cormag who's in a better class.

Base stats-wise Hinata still beats most of the non royals except Oboro who's straight up OP when she comes, has instant access to guard naginata BS to be even more OP. Hinata still beats her on spd and probably luck and hp (on the long run he will anyway) while having slightly less def base due to myrmidon having shit def (same issue with strength) while in Oni he get shit skl but good str and insane def (around Rinkah's level with much more HP). Blacksmith or Master of Arms should give him the base stats he's looking for in order to patch up his stats other than res (which is easily fixed by dread knight, my dread knight Rinkah was insane and after 4 levels into hero and final class berserker she hits like a truck with berserker MU +str -hp partner and 1-2 range axe for mobs, hammer to OS generals with 15 more damage than needed and killer axe for other promoted ennemies).

Edited by mangasdeouf

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I don't hate Hinata, but as a character, I don't find him all that interesting~ He's alrght, tho~

As a unit, he's also not all that special. Good defenses but nothing you need on your team by the time he joins (expect maybe in Birthright).

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He's a good guy and has decent enough stats for tanking purposess. So I don't understand it either. Ryoma is the better samurai, but it's recommended to use 2, so that's not much of an issue, as it comes down to whichever samurai gets more blessed, Hana or Hinata.

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Two reasons, dodgetanks in Fates suck because if the enemies hitrates are below 50 then they use 1RN instead of 2 and Avoid in this game is trash, it was nerfed severely.

 

47 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

but it's recommended to use 2

Why?


EDIT: This post unnecessarily long, comparing him to previous games characters is dumb because they don't have hyper-inflated stats and sometimes you compare him to unit on other modes (Like him, a birthright character to a Nohrian character) which makes little sense.

EDIT 2: HOLD THE PHONE! So you are calling us out on kneeling down to Dieck becaue of his shitty growths? DUDE his bases would be enough to carry him through FE7, but even in FE6 they are so great he is one rounding for chapters to come. Can Hinata do that? NO

Dieck> Hinata surely. This just proves my point that this post is too long for no absolute reason.

EDIT 3: So Gerik is bad because of late joining time? Sure kind off but his bases last him so much and even in 0% growths he annihilates every enemy with just his promotion to Hero. @Kebe show this guy some of your FE8 destruction with Gerik. 

Also you seem to be a Growths>Bases person, please stop and your Gerik wasn't dying that's a complete made up lie and even if it did you were unlucky, finally he can use hand axes but guess you forgot about that.

 

Edited by Critical Sniper

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6 minutes ago, Critical Sniper said:

Two reasons, dodgetanks in Fates suck because if the enemies hitrates are below 50 then they use 1RN instead of 2 and Avoid in this game is trash, it was nerfed severely.

 

Why?


EDIT: This post unnecessarily long, comparing him to previous games characters is dumb because they don't have hyper-inflated stats and sometimes you compare him to unit on other modes (Like him, a birthright character to a Nohrian character) which makes little sense.

EDIT 2: HOLD THE PHONE! So you are calling us out on kneeling down to Dieck becaue of his shitty growths? DUDE his bases would be enough to carry him through FE7, but even in FE6 they are so great he is one rounding for chapters to come. Can Hinata do that? NO

Dieck> Hinata surely. This just proves my point that this post is too long for no absolute reason.

Because of Hakagure, Ryoma already has Raijinto, so the Hagakure should go to another swordmaster or a Lodestar. Also swordmasters are pretty good in fates.

Hinata can do that actually, since he has enough growths to keep being good from beggining to end, he's no A rank or S rank tier, but still does pretty well.

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8 minutes ago, Critical Sniper said:

This just proves my point that this post is too long for no absolute reason.

This isn't the first really long post by OP that should've been a blog post.  Like, forums are for discussion, not for hearing yourself talk.

As for Hinata, eh.  He brings Hisame into the game, and that's good enough for me.

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1 minute ago, DiogoJorge said:

Because of Hakagure, Ryoma already has Raijinto, so the Hagakure should go to another swordmaster or a Lodestar. Also swordmasters are pretty good in fates.

And why can't he have both? Since I haven't played birthright, does the game not allow you to have him equik Hakagure? Swordmasters good here? Right. Their biggest asset, avoid, is crapped on by fates.
 

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

This isn't the first really long post by OP that should've been a blog post.  Like, forums are for discussion, not for hearing yourself talk.

I mean I know, I have read those old forum discussion contests however there is so much unnecessary text here or stuff that is unreasonable, we go from "Guys why you hate Hinata" to "Gerik's base defense sucks" if you are goign to discuss about something you must keep it on topic, especially if it's your own topic.

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1 minute ago, Critical Sniper said:

I mean I know, I have read those old forum discussion contests however there is so much unnecessary text here or stuff that is unreasonable, we go from "Guys why you hate Hinata" to "Gerik's base defense sucks" if you are goign to discuss about something you must keep it on topic, especially if it's your own topic.

Hence my second sentence.  Once it goes into the author's personal thoughts over something unrelated, it's blog post territory.  I haven't decided whether or not I should close this topic on those grounds, especially since this isn't the first time.

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4 minutes ago, Critical Sniper said:

And why can't he have both? Since I haven't played birthright, does the game not allow you to have him equik Hakagure? Swordmasters good here? Right. Their biggest asset, avoid, is crapped on by fates.
 

I mean I know, I have read those old forum discussion contests however there is so much unnecessary text here or stuff that is unreasonable, we go from "Guys why you hate Hinata" to "Gerik's base defense sucks" if you are goign to discuss about something you must keep it on topic, especially if it's your own topic.

Because, he can't use both at the same time. Dual wielding was never a thing in FE other than for cosmetic effects. If he uses Raijinto, then Hagakure goes unused, if he uses Hagakure then Raijinto goes unused. Raijinto already gives a boost of 10 avoid, so there's no reason to give Hagakure to Ryoma. Their biggest asset is critical rate and S rank in swords, which no other class other than Lodestar can do (and they don't have as much critical). Also, avoid is still good, because swordmasters can utterly avoid axe wielders or lance users (with dual katana).

Edited by DiogoJorge

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13 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

If he uses Raijinto, then Hagakure goes unused, if he uses Hagakure then Raijinto goes unused. Raijinto already gives a boost of 10 avoid, so there's no reason to give Hagakure to Ryoma.

Are there absolutely no instances where you should use Hagakure over Raijinto? If not then just don't use it. You don't need every legendary type weapon to be used, like in FE6 there's Armads but you don't need to train an axe user who is a detriment for a long time to use it. And while Hinata isn't bad, you could give this weapon to Hana who will turn out better than him in almost every way.

14 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Hence my second sentence.  Once it goes into the author's personal thoughts over something unrelated, it's blog post territory.  I haven't decided whether or not I should close this topic on those grounds, especially since this isn't the first time.

If I may be so bold, you close everything anyways :wacko: (Don't worry I ain't mad over getting my other topic closed, it was poorly made)

If I talk like I fear my death, this topic will be a discussion and like you said that's what forums are about so it can remain open since this is 1) An idea I haven't seen presented a lot or at all and 2) Quite entertaining for the extremely bored :D: :P: so I suggest keeping it open, but you are the one with more experience though to know what to do.

@mangasdeouf consider editing your post and revising it to make it not only readable, in terms of length, but also better at presenting your thoughts if those are too tedious for you then a tl;dr (Too long; didn't read) section right at the start would be appreciated.

Edited by Critical Sniper

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20 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Because, he can't use both at the same time. Dual wielding was never a thing in FE other than for cosmetic effects. If he uses Raijinto, then Hagakure goes unused, if he uses Hagakure then Raijinto goes unused. Raijinto already gives a boost of 10 avoid, so there's no reason to give Hagakure to Ryoma. Their biggest asset is critical rate and S rank in swords, which no other class other than Lodestar can do (and they don't have as much critical). Also, avoid is still good, because swordmasters can utterly avoid axe wielders or lance users (with dual katana).

Never mind the fact that the Hagakure Blade halves your Strength when used... Or the fact you barely get to use it (all of 2 chapters of use).

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11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Never mind the fact that the Hagakure Blade halves your Strength when used... Or the fact you barely get to use it (all of 2 chapters of use).

That was never an issue for me, since Hagakure has 18 MT. Meaning that even at half STR, the unit will still pack a punch if doubling. Hinata might not double some, but he will definetely be virtually unkillable against physical targets due to his high DEF and HP.

Better to use it then not use it at all. Also, the swordmasters still provide with plenty before that moment. 

Quote

Are there absolutely no instances where you should use Hagakure over Raijinto? If not then just don't use it. You don't need every legendary type weapon to be used, like in FE6 there's Armads but you don't need to train an axe user who is a detriment for a long time to use it. And while Hinata isn't bad, you could give this weapon to Hana who will turn out better than him in almost every way.

Other than extra MT and a bit more avoid? Little reason, since Raijinto gives a 10 avoid boost. If you give it to another swordmaster however, it won't go unused for that turn. On contrary, more the reason to use both, I will not be caught dead not using it when it's given to me for free and S rank bonuses on top of that + 5 damage from swordfaire to help counter it's half STR effect.

Actually, Hana and Hinata are about equals, with both specializing in different areas. In BR I usually use both and bench the one that gets less RNG blessed.

Edited by DiogoJorge

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5 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

That was never an issue for me, since Hagakure has 18 MT. Meaning that even at half STR, the unit will still pack a punch if doubling. Hinata might not double some, but he will definetely be virtually unkillable against physical targets due to his high DEF and HP.

Better to use it then not use it at all. Also, the swordmasters still provide with plenty before that moment. 

Personally, I'd rather not have to fight at reduced capacity every other fight. It can be quite the inconvenience.

And I say it isn't worth going out of my way to use. Same goes for the other S rank weapons, especially Aurgelmir. It doesn't help that you practically have to go out of your way to get S rank in a weapon type.

5 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Other than extra MT and a bit more avoid? Little reason, since Raijinto gives a 10 avoid boost. If you give it to another swordmaster however, it won't go unused for that turn. On contrary, more the reason to use both, I will not be caught dead not using it when it's given to me for free and S rank bonuses on top of that + 5 damage from swordfaire to help counter it's half STR effect.

Actually, Hana and Hinata are about equals, with both specializing in different areas. In BR I usually use both and bench the one that gets less RNG blessed.

I would sooner say no reason, because Raijinto has 1-2 range. Also, Swordfaire is a level 15 skill, meaning it's pretty likely you may not even see it before the game's over unless you grind. In addition, there's still the matter of needing to go out of your way to get S rank in the first place...

Perhaps, but aside from Ryoma, who is only as good as he is thanks to Ryoma-exclusive factors, swordmasters aren't that good a class in this game - I would say they're about average at best.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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34 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I'd rather not have to fight at reduced capacity every other fight. It can be quite the inconvenience.

And I say it isn't worth going out of my way to use. Same goes for the other S rank weapons, especially Aurgelmir. It doesn't help that you practically have to go out of your way to get S rank in a weapon type.

I would sooner say no reason, because Raijinto has 1-2 range. Also, Swordfaire is a level 15 skill, meaning it's pretty likely you may not even see it before the game's over unless you grind. In addition, there's still the matter of needing to go out of your way to get S rank in the first place...

Perhaps, but aside from Ryoma, who is only as good as he is thanks to Ryoma-exclusive factors, swordmasters aren't that good a class in this game - I would say they're about average at best.

I don't need to grind, the Paralogues already give you plenty of xp to reach lv 15.

Suit yourself, for me they do a pretty decent job.

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I wouldn't call the general feeling towards Hinata hate, moreso ambivalence. He is a serviceable unit, but nothing special. If you care about units overlapping classes, he competes with Hana who has availability and a more "swordmaster" stat spread, and Ryoma who is simply ridiculous. If you compare him to units that join near him, Oboro is typically far preferred to him as a unit and character, and while Takumi is divisive, people who like him really like him, and he is more useful than Hinata as a unit. He beats out Hayato/Setsuna/Azama but that doesn't say much, and Hinoka beats him out like Oboro and Takumi do.

He's more than good enough to do the job, especially if you're loose with grinding, but unless he jumps out at you character wise, there is little point in using him. He's just an okay unit in a sea of units that can all be used fairly easily,

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7 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't need to grind, the Paralogues already give you plenty of xp to reach lv 15.

Suit yourself, for me they do a pretty decent job.

Maybe if you wait until the children come with Offspring Seals, which is a mistake that I never, EVER do because hard work hardly works. Well, that, and Offspring Seals are rather underwhelming for the trouble I go through to use them. On top of that, I actually want to make use of the child units for a sizable portion of the game, as opposed to waiting and finding the paralogues (and by extension, the children themselves) to be more trouble than they're worth. Anyhow, this begs the question, when do you do the paralogues?

Honestly, I don't see most of the classes that can achieve S rank in a weapon type as all that great, especially Berserker, which is exceedingly unreliable (to say nothing of needing to scrape the bottom of the barrel if you want one). Between that and the massive downsides, I'm better off not bothering with them.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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On 18/01/2019 at 11:26 PM, Critical Sniper said:

EDIT 2: HOLD THE PHONE! So you are calling us out on kneeling down to Dieck becaue of his shitty growths? DUDE his bases would be enough to carry him through FE7, but even in FE6 they are so great he is one rounding for chapters to come. Can Hinata do that? NO

Dieck> Hinata surely. This just proves my point that this post is too long for no absolute reason.

EDIT 3: So Gerik is bad because of late joining time? Sure kind off but his bases last him so much and even in 0% growths he annihilates every enemy with just his promotion to Hero. @Kebe show this guy some of your FE8 destruction with Gerik. 

Also you seem to be a Growths>Bases person, please stop and your Gerik wasn't dying that's a complete made up lie and even if it did you were unlucky, finally he can use hand axes but guess you forgot about that.

1. I looked at a picture taken from chapter, I believe it was 19 from FE6. An ennemy hero with 38 hp or so, 19 spd, no less than 15 str, maybe it was more, I don't remember in which topic I saw that. I don't expect Dieck to even REACH these stats before 20/15. And I don't think his inability to 1 round fast ennemies, and his low experience gains due to being overlevelled if he has to stay relevant don't help him either. Early promotion doesn't help him either if you use it. Dieck's base stats are correct, but honestly, his def is garbage and his strength is barely more than average in the beginning, and under average then. Prepromotes in this game instantly outshine most of the base units anyway, just wait for them to show up.

So Hinata is way better than Dieck, who can't take 3 lance hits in his joining chapter in other than the easiest difficulty (maybe even in the easiest difficulty, they deal 11 with javelins, maybe more in his joining chapter, meaning 12 with iron, so (12-5)+1=8, yeah he takes 3 8 damage hits maybe, enough for easy mode or whatever the basic mode is called. Hinata, while inferior in his joining map, doesn't have 10+ better base stats prepromotes to compete with, has access to cheap stat boosters and to pair up and bock, skills like vantage that will proc often with his trash avoid, meaning ogre strike doesn't matter but we all know we don't play him for that, has a 45% def growth as a SAMURAI, so he can only get better def growth if you give him a class more fit for him, he can grab skills to patch his weaknesses, and his base def of 11 with katana equipped is enough alongside good base hp in comparison with no hp cast and good def growth means that he will keep a good physical bulk and stay relevant just by being one of the rare tanky units in BR.

Meanwhile Dieck's def will barely grow in the whole game without serious RNG blessing, his base HP isn't great and his speed won't grow much either with worse growth than Gerik. And he doesn't really competes with anyone for aster seals since you get plenty of them, while earlier games don't let you choose the unit type you can promote, and aren't very generous on seals.

2. LOL you're funny. Gerik has 32 HP, 14 str, 13 skl, 13 spd, 8 lck, 10 def, 4 res, his growths are 90/45/40/30/30/35/25. Instant promo into hero: 36 hp, 15 str, 15 skl, 15 spd, 12 def, 6 res. You know what? It looks great. But that's the stats I expect from paladin Forde, who can be 20/1 before I can recruit Gerik and trades garbage promo gains for 8 movement. Not for a guy who's lookin badass and has a good class. 20/20 Gerik reaches 23 spd on average, meaning in 29 lv ups, he gains...8 SPD! wow great! Now TSS is easy on speed thresholds, but if it were a little more rude on it, he wouldn't double most late game ennemies (he still doesn't double swordmasters in ch19 I believe, so he can't ORKO them without awfully high price hero weapons that are buyable during this chapter, not before it, and only with the member card and placing someone there and grabbing the item from him/her or the supply), meaning even if he got 29 level ups on average he can't one round those units that can damage your weaker units like L'Arachel/Rennac/Moulder/Lute/etc. who can die in 1 crit or 1 crit + any physical hit following, eaning you must use more units for chokepoints.

So Gerik is good, but his base stats come too late to be enough, he has WTD against the most susceptible units to hit him with correct damage before promotion, and after he deals with D axes for a while. The S rank in axes will come very late without grinding, if it ever comes, so he won't get that juicy S rank bonus (notably crit, but +1 MT and +5 hit are also nice to have especially on 1-2 axes with 60 hit rate, 20 skl only makes his accuracy reach 100, and his luck around 14 gives him 7 more hit, still not enough to keep axes against sword users and mix weapon groups like heroes, some of them using braves).

Meanwhile he tanks more from his HP and average avoid (that doesn't help him a lot against midgame and late game bosses) than from def and res for most of the game, in no grind his def might not even be enough for him to be a frontliner (in 11B the death goyle can put him in serious danger with it's flying underlings). Finally Gerik is good more because the ennemies are weak for the most part than because he has good bases and growths, 8 spd in 29 levels is piss poor, especially when gaining 1-5 exp per KILL for 60% of the time he's playable.

So Hinata, while his bases are on the same ground (with less res in a game where mages hit twice as hard as TSS if not 3x with early mjolnir and insane weapon rank damage boosts), has more ways to make his way through the game, and while he won't double as often as Gerik, he doesn't suffer to be overshadowed by Seth before Raijinto joins the group, and even then Raijinto has less def than him, less HP growth and even his skl and spd can be shaky with 50% growths while he's supposed to carry the game, and in the end he could need a spd pair up while his role is the same as Hana but more frontline oriented.

So in the end, Hinata outshines Raijinto as a frontline unit since he can take hits better and his shaky str gives him more reasons to use the S rank katana since medium str/2 = mediocre str, but won't change it much in the end (18/2=9 while 25/2=12, from 7 points of difference to 3 between good str and medium str after using it), and his weapon level should reach S before Raijinto's does, since Hinata has 4 more chapters or not far from it over Raijinto to grow. + availability superior to lobster lord and Gerik, bases lasting longer than Dieck's with all the ways to boost them for cheap or free.

In short: Dieck will enjoy the bench in the 3rd 1/3 of his game because he doesn't compete with lower level ennemy heroes, while they are more in numbers than your units so you can't really keep units that don't even match random ennemies' stats.

Gerik is good but only on Eirika's route, since in Ephraim's route he comes too late for tedious maps, in a map that makes him a liability more than anything, with lance flyers coming each turn or every 2nd turn after a certain point, he has to face lancers to save the villages so might as well use any unit you trained before to do what he struggles to do, and by endgame he falls off against human ennemies who have good stats and he can't ORKO some of them without brave weapons, and early promotion hinders him like hell.

Hinata competes with an overbuffed unit yet he can do something that unti can't, while his real competition for non bullshit samurai is Hana who can't take a lance hit past midgame because her def will barely grow at all, her hp will barely grow as well, only her res allows her to take a hit, and her avoid isn't enough for her to dodgetank, so Hinata is no match for her, + barely less base speed than Hana would have at the same level, alongside better def and better hp than lv 15-20 Hana at base lv 10.

Easy access to seals for better tank utility is also a plus (better as a MoA and Oboro marriage for spd+def seals). Hinata is Gerik with more flexibility, availability and more room in a team to be used since Gerik has to compete with 8 move units with about the same stats as his but more exp put into them leading to him being already behind when he joins, and moility hindering him while you don't have 4 potential 8 move ground units + 3 good fliers against 2 for Hinata. And earlier access to unbreakable reverse weapon triangle weapons is a +.

TL;DR: Hinata beats both Dieck and Gerik  in the end, and while none is necessary (don't start me on Dieck please, I played more without him than with and Bors beats him all day even with less movement since you have to bait ennemies to come instead of charging, opposite to TSS that has weaker ennemies and better playable units, add +6 base def over Dieck with 4 more levels to grow spd with better growth means he, as a knight, the awful class everyone despites, is better without any stat boosters than Dieck will ever be by trying all you want), Hinata fills a niche very few can fill in his game, and in an avatar-less run, I bet he's really useful if you don't want to sacrifice Hinoka's flying utility and mobility for her to be able to take hits while dealing damage (as a peg she has low str and def so she needs better weapons for damage but has to use guard naginata to survive and she can barely live to a single arrow in a game where archers are finally decent and avoid is nerfed) and as a wyvern lord Scarlet lacks defence when reaching lategame, while no having enough avoid  and literally no avoid skills in formation (only skill might be wyvern lv 10 when far from allies, and I'm not even sure it stayed in Fates) alongside no skill to regen hp. In no royals runs, he is one of the very few frontliners existing at all in Hoshido with Oboro, reclassed or promoted Azama and Silas.

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7 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

TL;DR: Hinata beats both Dieck and Gerik  in the end, and while none is necessary (don't start me on Dieck please, I played more without him than with and Bors beats him all day even with less movement since you have to bait ennemies to come instead of charging, ..., add +6 base def over Dieck with 4 more levels to grow spd with better growth means he, as a knight, the awful class everyone despites, is better without any stat boosters than Dieck will ever be by trying all you want)

*flashbacks to Bors constantly dying in the Arena*

Never thought I'd see the day when anybody would claim any of Binding Blade's Knights to be better than Dieck, but okay.  Not trying to say you're wrong, but I'm surprised.

Edited by Von Ithipathachai

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