Is Sakurai biased against Zelda?

[Dandy Druid]

8 hours ago, Gregster101 said:

Really? Most people I've seen consider it, Mario, and Pokemon to be it's big three franchises. Obviously it's not quite as much of a juggernaut as Mario and Pokemon, but still

IIRC, Zelda is much more popular in the West than it is Japan. It's still popular in Japan, but the West loves the series much more. This is why most people consider it Big 3, since it's considered a big deal on this side of the pond. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

If anything, I think Zelda could use fewer/different characters. Namely, Young Link and Toon Link should never have been a thing in Smash, and could have been replaced by Midna, Zant, Ghirahim, or literally anyone else for better effect.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

Namely, Young Link and Toon Link should never have been a thing in Smash, and could have been replaced by Midna, Zant, Ghirahim, or literally anyone else for better effect.

You have a case for Toon Link perhaps, but not Young Link. Since OoT/MM was still the latest thing, and given the abundance of alts in Melee (and Zelda already got slapped with a different one in Ganondorf), they didn't have the time or resources to do much more. Could they have seriously done Skull Kid or someone else? YL's return had to be if they insisted on bringing everyone back for SSBU.

The silver lining is that the nearly whole of the Zelda franchise has representation now. Zelda reps the "classic" era, Link BotW, TL all the games in that aesthetic, and YL OoT/MM. The only eras other than Oracle which we're really missing is TP and SS, nothing perhaps could be done for SS, but TP could have been repped if Gdorf stayed that way.

 

I can see the dearth of new characters making Zelda seem neglected despite being alive and humongous, but of course that isn't the case.

FE on the other hand has pretty unrepresentative stages for all the characters it has- but nobody says it isn't neglected. Castle Siege is generic, Coliseum is generic, Arena Ferox is from an over-shown and not important moment of the story. I know FE is supposed to be more realistic and less fantastical compared to other franchises, with no single central location in most games worth repping. Nonetheless, are we sure they can't do something better? Pull a Saffron City/Spear Pillar/Pokemon League except with FE characters? Or a Gaur Plain or Pyrosphere? A Fates stage with Azura once in a while popping a Dragon Vein to redo the layout the stage?

[Lord_Brand]

On 1/21/2019 at 4:48 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm going to echo what everyone else says. The problem lies more with the Zelda cast than with Sakurai. There are three main characters who are incredibly important whenever they appear but aside from that Zelda doesn't really have a core cast. While there are a lot of recognizable characters they generally don't appear in multiple titles and if they do the plot usually doesn't focus on them enough to create moveset potential.  

And I just don't think Sakurai thinks one game stars are good enough for Smash. One time villains like Zant and Ghirahim have clear moveset potential but I think Sakurai would rather put in villains with multiple appearances than settle with villains that vanish forever after their one game is up. 

Because Sheik is such a recurring concept in the series. And don't tell me that Sheik gets a pass because she's a variant of Zelda, because by that logic, we should be able to get Tetra (who is technically more recurring than Sheik). Impa deserves that slot more as she is also a recurring character, and she could easily be reworked into a Sheik Echo given the ninja-like appearance. Hell, she's probably the one who taught Zelda the skills she uses as Sheik!

There are plenty of memorable Zelda characters who would be worthy of a slot. Ruto, Darunia, Midna, Ghirahim, Daruk, and Urbosa, to name a few. And of course there's Tingle. And frankly those characters are just as worthy of a slot as Ice Climbers or friggin' Duck Hunt.

On 1/21/2019 at 4:54 PM, Glennstavos said:

I just don't see Ganondorf being that much better if you replaced some of the punches and kicks with sword swings. And if we consider a trident or any form of magic that isn't a tennis ball projectile, we're talking about Ganon, not ganondorf. And I've already mentioned how I did and still do prefer Ganon over Ganondorf if the choice were up to me, which it's not. You gave me a choice between Ganondorf or Black Shadow, but the possibility of Ganondorf having been improved in later installments is not mutually exclusive. They could have decloned Ganondorf a bit more in Brawl but they chose not to, probably taking advantage of how the TP version is actually quite similar to the Melee concept. And if you disagree with that comparison than I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't know what Black Knight -esque means and that Ganondorf definitely threw a lot more martial arts than what we seen in previous incarnations. The new Flame Choke move also feels very in-character, possibly a shout out to a scene in WindWaker as well.

If Zelda can use the Goddess spells from OoT as specials, Ganondorf can pull from all kinds of sources in the series. He could wield an axe a la Iron Knuckle for smashes and aerials. He could use fire and ice magic as a nod to Twinrova. He could use his quake punch from OoT as a new D Special or dair. He could Teleport as a recovery. And yes, his N Special should be the Ball Lightning attack.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Lord_Brand

[vanguard333]

I can't say whether or not it has to do with bias; only speculate, and even then, I have no idea. 

Honestly, I think that they think there's no one notable enough that would also have a good moveset.

Midna is very popular, but, in TP, her only attacks were: using hair claw to make Link attack multiple enemies in an area, use hair claw + Fused Shadow to make Zant pop like a balloon, and use Fused Shadow tentacle-form to stab Floating Face Ganon with a trident (rather ironic, given Ganon's love of tridents). Perhaps her plus Wolf Link could have a full moveset, but that would mean four Links. 

Skull Kid... what would even be his attacks? He's a completely non-action antagonist in MM and his one attack in OoT is shooting darts out of his flute.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hyrule Warriors gave both Midna and Skull Kid movesets, and Smash has given movesets to characters with less (hello, Captain Falcon).

On 2019-01-21 at 5:17 PM, Gregster101 said:

Really? Most people I've seen consider it, Mario, and Pokemon to be it's big three franchises. Obviously it's not quite as much of a juggernaut as Mario and Pokemon, but still

I dunno who these "most people" are but you can check it for yourself! Google "list of best-selling video game franchises" if you want to confirm. Mario is 570M, Pokemon is 301M, Zelda is 90M, Donkey Kong is 56M. (Mario Kart is 125M.) The gap is massive and not just a Japan/West thing, and it's rather misleading to refer to a "Big Three" when there's a 200M gap between #2 and #3 but only a 34M gap between #3 and #4.

Mario and Pokemon have always gotten special treatment in Smash Bros (only franchises with multiple reps in the original game, for instance) and that's entirely fair IMO.

[Lord_Brand]

And yet Zelda games always get major attention. The gap in sales numbers might have to do with Zelda having barely any spinoffs while Mario's got spinoffs coming out of his negative zone and Pokemon always sells at least two games per generation. If Zelda had a successful series of RPGs, sports, racing, and party games, maybe the numbers would be a little closer.

[Lightchao42]

Nah. Not only does Zelda have more characters than every series aside from Mario and Pokémon (and Fire Emblem if you count echoes), it also has more content than the majority of series in basically every area. In Ultimate Zelda has...

• Nine stages (only Mario has more, and is one of four series to get a new stage)
• Eight items (only Mario has more)
• Four Assist Trophies (only Mario has more)
• Four Mii costumes (and three individual hats)
• Eight new remixes
• 92 spirits (more than any series aside from Mario and Pokémon)
• And a boss (if we don't treat Giga Bowser as a Mario boss, Kirby and Castlevania are the other series with playable characters to have bosses)

Zelda consistently has more content than every series aside from Mario and sometimes Pokémon, so Sakurai probably isn't "biased" against it. The probable reason for there not being a new Zelda character since Brawl is that there aren't any big series mainstays aside from Link/Zelda/Ganon. Impa is the closest besides them, but her appearance and abilities aren't consistent across games.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Lightchao42

[Gregster101]

27 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

And yet Zelda games always get major attention. The gap in sales numbers might have to do with Zelda having barely any spinoffs while Mario's got spinoffs coming out of his negative zone and Pokemon always sells at least two games per generation. If Zelda had a successful series of RPGs, sports, racing, and party games, maybe the numbers would be a little closer.

You do make a very good point. The only Zelda spinoffs I can think of off the top of my head are Link's Crossbow Training, Hyrule Warriors, and the games that star Tingle. There might be another one I'm forgetting, but I'm not sure. Either way, while there is a noticeable sales gap between Zelda and the Mario and Pokemon series, it would be unfair to say it's not considered part of Nintendo's Big 3 franchises alongside them.

[The DanMan]

Zelda has a giant spotlight when it comes to everything but characters-- stages and items aplenty.

I think it's a combination of LoZ not being quite as iconic in Japan and Nintendo seeing little reason to promote it.

[Lord_Brand]

I'd love to smash opponents with a Goron's big fists or to surf on waves of water with a Zora. And if a freaking Piranha Plant can get in as a playable character, then representatives of two of the Zelda series' most notable races darn well deserve a shot in the spotlight.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Lord_Brand

[Zangetsu]

Bias against Zelda, right. Come to think of it Link, Zelda, Ganondor, & Toon Link have the exact moveset since the their debut. None of them has ever had any of their moveset or (especially) characters models tweak whatsoever.

 

Also Mother, Star Fox, Xenoblade, Donkey Kong, etc says hi