How should the main lords class promotion be handled? Story driven, or normal unit promotion?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Normal unit promotion. Story based promotions are godawful (the only exception being Ike) and need to stay gone.

 

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I dislike how it was in Fates, where it just didn't matter and you could get Corrin promoted whenever you wanted, even though promoting to either Noble class should have been like being fully accepted into one camp. And there was no special promotion for Revelation either. Same thing in Awakening, except you can sort of pretend that becoming Exalt is Chrom's story promotion and do it then, I guess.

I'd much rather have story-based promotions like in the older games or Echoes with Celica, because it really is cooler narratively. I just think of Roy's situation as inexperience on IS' part at the time. I think the main Lord promotion in 7 was also a bit late for not particularly interesting reasons, since it was tied to Heaven Seals anyway and not Eliwood/Hector getting Durandal/Armads.

 

You know what would be mildly interesting?

You know how i was like always pushing for Shadow Dragon esque reclass, but every character only have 3 different class choice instead of literally everything?

Why not have a game where the Lords can promote just like a normal unit with Master Seals, have 3 separate choice of class, but the catch is their own promoted class is unaccesible until a certain portion of the story?(in which they got instant promotion regardless of level ALA Alm and Cellica). Seems like an ok middleground

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'd like story-based promotions. For the reason of adding some flair to the narrative, but I can see the issues with it.

 

1 hour ago, Hawkwing said:

They don't even need to be insecure. It could be as simple as the lord deciding they wish to put off the promotion until they feel like they're more ready for it, or when they've thought it over. Heck, they could maybe even have different dialogue depending on if the player promotes them immediately, only a short time later, or much further down the line.

I just don't want a situation where the lord is forced to promote when the player was planning on getting them a few more levels first, or having to wait several chapters for it to appear as putting their level 20 lord on the front lines would just be wasting experience.

Eirika and Ephraim do get their Lunar and Solar Brace as promotion items if you choose not to promote them at the moment they're supposed to. They get their Sieglinde and Siegmund and the Sacred Stone of Renais at the same time, so there is still narrative oomph of them getting stronger at that moment even if they don't promote.

 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Agreed. Though Ike's promotions come after the most trying and annoying chapters of all times, it still works because there are plenty of chapters to fully invest in the promotion. And then Radiant Dawn had the last story promotions before FE15, but that one is due to being a remake of Gaiden, where there was the first story-based promotions in Fire Emblem. 

It's annoying how despite the advancements, they never gave Marth any promotions in FE11 or 12. Like, REALLY? There were two times when Marth would have had a perfect chance to get a story based promotion. 

 

He does get the Binding Shield in the War of the Heroes though, which is a +2 to all stats, which is in a way like promotion bonuses.

I do get where you are coming from. But the Shield, like Corrin's Yato upgrades, can offer an alternative, or supplement, to story promotions. They just need to make these item get moments sufficiently dramatic and the items obtained sufficiently powerful in gameplay.

Roy's BB couldn't compensate for the late promotion's crippling effects. 17 Def and 16 Res at 20/1 is quite good actually, but 33 Atk isn't a whole lot, and every 2HKO Roy needs drains two uses of the precious twenty, so he can't use it for long.

But PoR Ike getting Ragnell complemented his Lord promotion. It came much later, at a different and also important moment in Ike's development- facing his father's murderer. And it offered him a good bit in gameplay: an 18 Mt infinite use 1-2 range sword with +5 Def (also one of only three things that can hurt the final boss), not broken, but it fixed Ike's biggest issue, no 1-2, in a powerful way with some extra bells. 

Roy even with the BB can only do so much, and without it, there is little he can do. Ike went from good to great with the Ragnell. Ultimate lord weapons should feel like that. They should be infinite use if obtained late enough, provide significant secondary effects, and have a narrative purpose.

Marth's Falchions have been lacking for the second thing for a long time, only the NES Falchion has been more than an emergency Vulnerary and souped up Wyrmslayer with Medeus effectiveness. It is so bad in FE11 you're better off skipping it and keeping the Starsphere. Just being effective on the final boss isn't quite always enough for me, it is a nice thing, but more is better, since otherwise the weapon doesn't feel so legendary. They should be able to rend all incredibly, not just the final boss.

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wouldn't that technically make more sense? The Fire Emblem itself is the power source of the Binding Blade, so Roy receiving it would still work. 

I'm not alone! Someone who has noticed that the Binding Blade is itself an extension of the Fire Emblem- thus the FE of FE6 is quite relevant. It is the Binding Blade.

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

He does get the Binding Shield in the War of the Heroes though, which is a +2 to all stats, which is in a way like promotion bonuses.

I do get where you are coming from. But the Shield, like Corrin's Yato upgrades, can offer an alternative, or supplement, to story promotions. They just need to make these item get moments sufficiently dramatic and the items obtained sufficiently powerful in gameplay.

Roy's BB couldn't compensate for the late promotion's crippling effects. 17 Def and 16 Res at 20/1 is quite good actually, but 33 Atk isn't a whole lot, and every 2HKO Roy needs drains two uses of the precious twenty, so he can't use it for long.

But PoR Ike getting Ragnell complemented his Lord promotion. It came much later, at a different and also important moment in Ike's development- facing his father's murderer. And it offered him a good bit in gameplay: an 18 Mt infinite use 1-2 range sword with +5 Def (also one of only three things that can hurt the final boss), not broken, but it fixed Ike's biggest issue, no 1-2, in a powerful way with some extra bells. 

Roy even with the BB can only do so much, and without it, there is little he can do. Ike went from good to great with the Ragnell. Ultimate lord weapons should feel like that. They should be infinite use if obtained late enough, provide significant secondary effects, and have a narrative purpose.

Marth's Falchions have been lacking for the second thing for a long time, only the NES Falchion has been more than an emergency Vulnerary and souped up Wyrmslayer with Medeus effectiveness. It is so bad in FE11 you're better off skipping it and keeping the Starsphere. Just being effective on the final boss isn't quite always enough for me, it is a nice thing, but more is better, since otherwise the weapon doesn't feel so legendary. They should be able to rend all incredibly, not just the final boss.

Exactly. Had Roy promoted earlier, he'd have gotten much stronger and been much more useful for the endgame. 

As for the Marth thing, yes, the BInding Shield is neat, but it's a small thing as Marth could get that much more if he promotes. There are promotions he could take now and artworks for them. 

Honestly, Falchion should have been much stronger than what we get. Hell, if I could make it even better, I'd give it a range of 1-2, which would improve it exponentially. The Falchion is Naga's fang is lore-wise, as powerful as Naga herself. It oughta give a lot more than a stronger wyrnslayer.

6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm not alone! Someone who has noticed that the Binding Blade is itself an extension of the Fire Emblem- thus the FE of FE6 is quite relevant. It is the Binding Blade.

I personally also think that the Elibe Legendaries were actually created by reverse engineering the Binding Blade, using the Fire Emblem as the source of power to harness. Powerful magical items require there to be a source after all. So the Fire Emblem being the source of the Binding Blade's power, they must have used the Fire Emblem to forge the Legendary Weapons. This would make a lot more sense than the humans suddenly having the ability to create weapons so powerful that clashing against the dragons caused the Ending Winter.

[Slumber]

Story promotion.

Just make them promote around the time the game starts handing out promotion items.

[X-Naut]

I like story-based promotion in theory, but in practice the situation tends to come too late in gameplay and in many cases it's also an obligatory promotion rather than an option. Some games give you a special promotion item instead, which is nice.

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

As for the Marth thing, yes, the BInding Shield is neat, but it's a small thing as Marth could get that much more if he promotes. There are promotions he could take now and artworks for them. 

Honestly, Falchion should have been much stronger than what we get. Hell, if I could make it even better, I'd give it a range of 1-2, which would improve it exponentially. The Falchion is Naga's fang is lore-wise, as powerful as Naga herself. It oughta give a lot more than a stronger wyrnslayer.

Personally I think if anything ought to be suped up, it's the repaired Binding Shield. That thing carries five orbs with gamebreaking properties, couldn't it give Marth access to a fraction of each orb's power?

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Personally I think if anything ought to be suped up, it's the repaired Binding Shield. That thing carries five orbs with gamebreaking properties, couldn't it give Marth access to a fraction of each orb's power?

Both Falchion and the completed Binding Shield oughta be gamebreaking, the latter especially. Kaga managed to make the Holy Weapons of Genealogy match the lore they have, especially the Book of Naga, which was gamebreaking. 

[henrymidfields]

Story-driven as I prefer good narratives. Besides, there's a pretty easy way to fix Roy's late promo issue. Either just adjust his class levels as 30/10 (and allow him 10 extra levels until Chapter 21 comes around), or detach his levels from his promotions entirely (and thus allow Roy to get to Level 40, with his promotion essentially being stat-boosts only). Either one of those should be standard practice for all future Lord units, including existing story-driven ones that shall undergo a remake.

Edited January 25, 2019 by henrymidfields

[Swift Saturn]

7 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Story-driven as I prefer good narratives. Besides, there's a pretty easy way to fix Roy's late promo issue. Either just adjust his class levels as 30/10 (and allow him 10 extra levels until Chapter 21 comes around), or detach his levels from his promotions entirely (and thus allow Roy to get to Level 40, with his promotion essentially being stat-boosts only). Either one of those should be standard practice.

(my first post lol) I feel like there's a better way to fix Roy's late promo issue. Just make him promote twice. Once around mid to late midgame, and then another time when he normally would in vanilla FE6. This will not only fix the problem of Roy being mediocre at best until the last few chapters, but it will also give an incentive to train and use Roy more throughout the early game. Also make him be mounted on his last promotion or something, idk

[henrymidfields]

7 minutes ago, Swift Saturn said:

(my first post lol) I feel like there's a better way to fix Roy's late promo issue. Just make him promote twice. Once around mid to late midgame, and then another time when he normally would in vanilla FE6. This will not only fix the problem of Roy being mediocre at best until the last few chapters, but it will also give an incentive to train and use Roy more throughout the early game. Also make him be mounted on his last promotion or something, idk

Say, after Chapter 16 when Roy becomes the acting Etrurian general? And if the classes are divided by levels then, 20 levels + 10 levels intermediate + 10 levels after Chapter 21? (Though looking at my previous post again, I'm starting to prefer detaching Lord's units levels from their promotion...)

Edited January 25, 2019 by henrymidfields

[Swift Saturn]

Just now, henrymidfields said:

Say, after Chapter 16 when Roy becomes the acting Etrurian general? And if the classes are divided by levels then, 20 levels + 10 levels intermediate + 10 levels after Chapter 21?

Yeah I feel like that would be an ideal time to do so. In terms of the level situation, you could either go how you suggested, or you could do it how I think it should go (which by the way is likely objectively wrong lol). Maybe make Roy's exp growth slow as hell, and make him carry on his level once he promotes the 2nd time. Also I feel like mounting Roy in some way (or at least increasing his move by 2) will also help in actually making Roy a great unit for more than like 3 seconds of the game 

[Captain Karnage]

I agree with @Anacybele if it fits the story like in Ike's case. I feel that with a lot of the older games it was kind of pointless to wait for a certain part in the story to allow them to upgrade their class (not to mention needing class specific items for promotion were bad imo). Overall I'm glad it's gone and I prefer what they did with Corrin and Chrom and gave the a better personal weapon at a certain point in the story, as it won't hold the unit back but gives the player some kind of unit growth from the story.

I also believe that people would have hated story based promotions if the didn't exist from the beginning of the series. 

[henrymidfields]

41 minutes ago, Swift Saturn said:

Yeah I feel like that would be an ideal time to do so. In terms of the level situation, you could either go how you suggested, or you could do it how I think it should go (which by the way is likely objectively wrong lol). Maybe make Roy's exp growth slow as hell, and make him carry on his level once he promotes the 2nd time. Also I feel like mounting Roy in some way (or at least increasing his move by 2) will also help in actually making Roy a great unit for more than like 3 seconds of the game 

How about maybe Eliwood (and the Lycian government in general) congratulating Roy on his victory in Chapter 16, and rewarding him with a war horse, and maybe a special regalia that is not as powerful as the Binding Blade itself, but still gives a good attack boost? Though, I say, Roy's characteristics in general seems to be more suited for Fates Conquest's gameplay mechanics with good support-based Skills and dual attack/blocks... I say, Roy gets a special skill that raises his regiment's morale (and thus their accuracy, avoid, crit/skill activation etc).

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Perhaps if the level system was like Genealogy's, where promotion doesn't reset the level number. I don't know...

Oh, wait. You already beat me to it.

Edited January 25, 2019 by henrymidfields

[DiogoJorge]

If it's story based then it should happen at a time where the protagonist realistically reaches lv 20. For instance, Roy's should have happened at chapter 15-16.

Otherwise, it should be regular promotion.

Edited January 25, 2019 by DiogoJorge

[link16hit]

Don't mind either but in mean in PoR, RD and Echoes have a character portrait change which is a nice touch to see. (forced change excepting Alm which can be trained to lv 20)

[Jotari]

Story promotion. Screw the haters, I want my narrative highs!

Edited February 2, 2019 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

23 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Story promotion. Screw the haters, I want my narrative highs!

I dunno about you, but I'd hate for my "narrative highs" to be accompanied by gameplay lows...

[Flere210]

Lots of people are burned out by Roy and Micaiah lol. They just need the lord to have a 1- 40 level progression and makes so they retain their level when they promote. That's it, no lord locked in 20 prepromote for 10 chapters, no lord that had no chance to level up before having a story promotion that stunt their growth.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Flere210

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno about you, but I'd hate for my "narrative highs" to be accompanied by gameplay lows...

But lulls in gameplay also give way to highs in gameplay. It's sine wave. Feels good after six chapters of if ignoring your lord to have them bust out onto the scene with a shiny new sprite/model kicking ass and taken names as if they never fell behind. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Ultimately, it's about the execution. Ideas can be good, bad, or neutral on paper; but even a good-sounding idea can be badly implemented, and vice versa. Story based promotions as an idea is no different.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the structure of the game itself is important. That's why some people suggest Roy should've promoted when made commander of the Etrurian-Lycian Army and they finally go into the offensive against Bern. As it's an important moment, narrative wise, and not as close to the end of the game as obtaining the Binding Blade is. Heck, it's pretty much comparable to the other moments of its kind across the series. Like the liberation of Leonster, the liberation of Renais, the big battle at Serenes, the adquisition of Durandal/Armads, etc. If Marth could promote, each liberation of Altea would likewise had been given the same treatment, most likely.

But well, that's just me. Thinking that for the protagonist(s), story-driven promotion, or some other kind of power-up if applicable, convey best their developtment and growth as the focus characters of the story and game.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[henrymidfields]

18 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Lots of people are burned out by Roy and Micaiah lol. They just need the lord to have a 1- 40 level progression and makes so they retain their level when they promote. That's it, no lord locked in 20 prepromote for 10 chapters, no lord that had no chance to level up before having a story promotion that stunt their growth.

Exactly! Just that and it solves a lot of gameplay problems with the Lord character's promos while retaining the story-related purposes.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Exactly! Just that and it solves a lot of gameplay problems with the Lord character's promos while retaining the story-related purposes.

Really, if you think about it, that's functionally what Marth had in New Mystey of the Emblem. He could level up to 30, and near the end of the game when he completed the Binding Shield he gets +2 in all stats and a new model (I think). Still doesn't feel as good without the fanfare and class name change.

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/1/2019 at 11:58 PM, Jotari said:

But lulls in gameplay also give way to highs in gameplay. It's sine wave. Feels good after six chapters of if ignoring your lord to have them bust out onto the scene with a shiny new sprite/model kicking ass and taken names as if they never fell behind. 

IF they can hold their own, which, unfortunately, doesn't always happen... *cough ROY hack* Anyways, I think the way that Awakening and Fates had the main characters' weapons upgrade at certain points in the story far more effective than a story-locked promotion ever was - and ever will be.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

IF they can hold their own, which, unfortunately, doesn't always happen... *cough ROY hack* Anyways, I think the way that Awakening and Fates had the main characters' weapons upgrade at certain points in the story far more effective than a story-locked promotion ever was - and ever will be.

Roy's probably the best example of what I'm talking about. Sword of Seals makes him ball'in right out the gate. He has no problem leading the charge for the last three chapters of the game. His weapon is just that damn good. Only problem is that you need to have Hammerine on hand because of it's nonexistant durability (in a bad way). It's the fact that Roy is a dead weight before that point that's his problem. Lowest lows lead to higher highs. Not that that necessarily balances itself out.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Roy's probably the best example of what I'm talking about. Sword of Seals makes him ball'in right out the gate. He has no problem leading the charge for the last three chapters of the game. His weapon is just that damn good. Only problem is that you need to have Hammerine on hand because of it's nonexistant durability (in a bad way). It's the fact that Roy is a dead weight before that point that's his problem. Lowest lows lead to higher highs. Not that that necessarily balances itself out.

And I cannot agree with this - it sounds very, very, VERY generous, especially since Roy is the main reason why I'm against plot based promotions to begin with. Who's to say Unintelligent Systems won't fuck up another plot-based promotion as badly as they did with him? Also, we're talking about Horse Emblem here - am I supposed to constantly rescue Roy to the frontlines so he can use it?? Great as the Binding Blade may be, in the end, it's a crutch an incompetent company had to invent to make up for an obviously poor decision they made - not that they succeeded, of course.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And I cannot agree with this - it sounds very, very, VERY generous, especially since Roy is the main reason why I'm against plot based promotions to begin with. Who's to say Unintelligent Systems won't fuck up another plot-based promotion as badly as they did with him? Also, we're talking about Horse Emblem here - am I supposed to constantly rescue Roy to the frontlines so he can use it?? Great as the Binding Blade may be, in the end, it's a crutch an incompetent company had to invent to make up for an obviously poor decision they made - not that they succeeded, of course.

Cool. Never asked nor expected you to agree with me though.