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Faellin

How should the main lords class promotion be handled? Story driven, or normal unit promotion?

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I personally like it more when the main lord has a set, story driven class promotion since it usually ties well into the story and feels alot cooler when it does happen. The problem with it is something like this risks another "Roy" situation where the promotion happens to late and said lord is trapped at level cap in their unpromoted class for a long time. And eventually becomes dead weight while everyone else starts to surpass them.

For this case, I feel sacred stones handled it the best. Where the story driven promotion happens roughly around the half way point in the game, around when Eirika and Ephraim should be closing in on level 20. And if you want to, you can delay it to get them a few extra levels. While still keeping the feel of the story driven promotion in tact.

 

While if you make the main lord promote just like any other unit like in awakening and fates. It severely cuts into that cool factor that a story driven promotion does. But generally avoids the Roy situation since they can promote at any time. But it just doesn't feel as good when it does happen this way. I admit in my first awakening playthrough, I was so used to the main lord getting a class promotion at a certain point in the story that I never promoted Chrom until like chapter 24 when someone corrected me on this.

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Normal unit promotion. Story based promotions are godawful (the only exception being Ike) and need to stay gone.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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I like story promotions better, they are more epic as you say and also it does feel meh by using a Master Seal, maybe if you get something like a Heaven Seal would be nice so you arent forced to promote but also dont do it as soon as chapter 8 or something.

 

I also prefer different promotion items for every class since I feel being able to control which units can promote at a certain point helps the devs balance that game way easier since they control your resources and also your maximum mov options which includes rescue and drop and stuff.

 

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It depends. If it's a situation like Ike, then it should be a story based promotion. Because one doesn't just suddenly become a lord for no reason. You have to be granted such a title, like Ike was.

If the story doesn't really require the lord attain their promotion through events, then it can be a normal unit promotion. Otherwise, story based.

Edited by Anacybele

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I dislike how it was in Fates, where it just didn't matter and you could get Corrin promoted whenever you wanted, even though promoting to either Noble class should have been like being fully accepted into one camp. And there was no special promotion for Revelation either. Same thing in Awakening, except you can sort of pretend that becoming Exalt is Chrom's story promotion and do it then, I guess.

I'd much rather have story-based promotions like in the older games or Echoes with Celica, because it really is cooler narratively. I just think of Roy's situation as inexperience on IS' part at the time. I think the main Lord promotion in 7 was also a bit late for not particularly interesting reasons, since it was tied to Heaven Seals anyway and not Eliwood/Hector getting Durandal/Armads.

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I personally prefer a story related promotion.

Promoting through items/Castle makes the promotion feel less impactful. 

Edited by Hekselka

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23 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

It depends. If it's a situation like Ike, then it should be a story based promotion. Because one doesn't just suddenly become a lord for no reason. You have to be granted such a title, like Ike was.

If the story doesn't really require the lord attain their promotion through events, then it can be a normal unit promotion. Otherwise, story based.

I personally think that story based promotions for the main lord does work better, but it must be at the appropriate timing. Ike's does make sense in how he promotes story wise, but it is a bit annoying that he gets his promotion rather late, being at the end of chapter 17, though you still have 10 more chapters to go, so it works still.

Roy's promotion was by far the worst when he promoted at just before chapter 22, so either in chapter 21 or 21x, which left 4 chapters left. Roy's promotion would have worked better when he received the Fire Emblem form Princess Guinevere and he officially would lead the army against Bern, as that was basically Roy stepping up to the spotlight as leader and represented a growing moment. Which would be at the end of chapter 16 or 16x. 

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I personally prefer story based promotions because yeah it works to better solidify character development for the main lord however I feel it should never come at the cost of gameplay. If you're going to do something like that please for the love of all that is holy balance the game around it. Do NOT put it 4 chapters before the end of the game. Because that works against the player in two ways:

1. it's frustrating to force a unit on the player that has so obviously been overshadowed by every other unit for that long. 

2. The player doesn't get a whole lot of time to play around with their new power before it's over. It kind of feels cheap to finally give you the promotion and power up you've been waiting for so long only for it to last like 2 chapters. 

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42 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Roy's promotion was by far the worst when he promoted at just before chapter 22, so either in chapter 21 or 21x, which left 4 chapters left. Roy's promotion would have worked better when he received the Fire Emblem form Princess Guinevere and he officially would lead the army against Bern, as that was basically Roy stepping up to the spotlight as leader and represented a growing moment. Which would be at the end of chapter 16 or 16x. 

And frankly, most of the others were not much better. The Renais twins only got like 5 chapters of promoted playtime, and ditto for your main lord in Blazing Blade. Hell, I would go so far as to say Ike was the only plot based promotion handled well.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And frankly, most of the others were not much better. The Renais twins only got like 5 chapters of promoted playtime, and ditto for your main lord in Blazing Blade. Hell, I would go so far as to say Ike was the only plot based promotion handled well.

Agreed. Though Ike's promotions come after the most trying and annoying chapters of all times, it still works because there are plenty of chapters to fully invest in the promotion. And then Radiant Dawn had the last story promotions before FE15, but that one is due to being a remake of Gaiden, where there was the first story-based promotions in Fire Emblem. 

It's annoying how despite the advancements, they never gave Marth any promotions in FE11 or 12. Like, REALLY? There were two times when Marth would have had a perfect chance to get a story based promotion. 

Shadow Dragon: End of Chapter 17, when Marth reclaims Altea. 

New Mystery: End of Chapter 14, when Marth received the Lightsphere and learned that he needed to save the world by completing the Fire Emblem. 

Story based promotions represent a coming of age ceremony for characters, symbolizing their growth and development. 

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I'd prefer normal unit promotions, honestly. I know that I promoted Chrom at widely different intervals in my several playthroughs of Awakening, depending upon how he was performing. If he had a fixed story promotion, then there would have been several times where he would have either been either over- or under-leveled at that point in the game. I'd rather that be in the players hands than on the developers in the event they misjudge it.

At the same time, I didn't mind the story promotions of Echoes. Celica's ensured that the player had to get the most out of her before she promoted at the end of chapter 3, and it was up to the player whether to unlock Alm's promotion earlier or later. This worked, however, due to how promotions affected stats in Gaiden/Echoes, and I'm not certain how well this would work in other games in the series.

I think a combination of the two might actually not be so bad, now that I think about it. Have the story unlock the promotion for the lord, but it's up to the player on when they decide to actually use it. That way, the lord isn't screwed over for doing well and then having their potential wasted, and vice versa. My only request is that it is unlocked early to mid game, and by no means should it become available near the end of it.

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I like story related promotions, but preferably with obtaining an item so you can do it when you want to. 

2 hours ago, Faellin said:

For this case, I feel sacred stones handled it the best. Where the story driven promotion happens roughly around the half way point in the game, around when Eirika and Ephraim should be closing in on level 20.

Sacred Stones promotion items are obtained well past the halfway point. Without grinding in random battles, it requires a lot of effort to get them past like 20/10. 

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2 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

I think a combination of the two might actually not be so bad, now that I think about it. Have the story unlock the promotion for the lord, but it's up to the player on when they decide to actually use it. That way, the lord isn't screwed over for doing well and then having their potential wasted, and vice versa. My only request is that it is unlocked early to mid game, and by no means should it become available near the end of it.

An interesting way you can implement this in the story is through playing up the lord's insecurities(well depending on their character anyway) like they get the item/sword/magical artifact they need to promote but hesitate to do so because of their own self doubt. And then you are allowed to use it later at your leisure when the story allows for it.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Roy's promotion would have worked better when he received the Fire Emblem form Princess Guinevere and he officially would lead the army against Bern, as that was basically Roy stepping up to the spotlight as leader and represented a growing moment. Which would be at the end of chapter 16 or 16x.

This is such a popular opinion and although I would like it to be this way it just doesn't make sense since it's because he gets the Binding Blade that he promotes or you'll have to change FE6's story for the promotion at 16 to work like maybe the Fire Emblem is what makes him promote and able to use the Binding Blade.

 

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

An interesting way you can implement this in the story is through playing up the lord's insecurities(well depending on their character anyway) like they get the item/sword/magical artifact they need to promote but hesitate to do so because of their own self doubt. And then you are allowed to use it later at your leisure when the story allows for it.

I think I already mentioned this but I think it doesn't exactly have to play up with insecurities, it could just be given to the lord and he decides to use it whenever.

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5 minutes ago, Critical Sniper said:

This is such a popular opinion and although I would like it to be this way it just doesn't make sense since it's because he gets the Binding Blade that he promotes or you'll have to change FE6's story for the promotion at 16 to work like maybe the Fire Emblem is what makes him promote and able to use the Binding Blade.

 

Wouldn't that technically make more sense? The Fire Emblem itself is the power source of the Binding Blade, so Roy receiving it would still work. 

Also, technically speaking, promotions are generally, as I said, a form of the Lord's coming of age ceremony, symbolizing their growth and development as characters. Chapter 16/16x at the end, Roy is made the leader of the Lycian Alliance, and he is to lead the charge against Bern. He went from just a small-time leader of a squad that grew to go and assist Hector to now being tasked to lead an entire army for war. 

Edited by omegaxis1

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wouldn't that technically make more sense? The Fire Emblem itself is the power source of the Binding Blade, so Roy receiving it would still work. 

Also, technically speaking, promotions are generally, as I said, a form of the Lord's coming of age ceremony, symbolizing their growth and development as characters. Chapter 16/16x at the end, Roy is made the leader of the Lycian Alliance, and he is to lead the charge against Bern. He went from just a small-time leader of a squad that grew to go and assist Hector to now being tasked to lead an entire army for war. 

Yeah it probably would make more sense to be honest.

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7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

An interesting way you can implement this in the story is through playing up the lord's insecurities(well depending on their character anyway) like they get the item/sword/magical artifact they need to promote but hesitate to do so because of their own self doubt. And then you are allowed to use it later at your leisure when the story allows for it.

They don't even need to be insecure. It could be as simple as the lord deciding they wish to put off the promotion until they feel like they're more ready for it, or when they've thought it over. Heck, they could maybe even have different dialogue depending on if the player promotes them immediately, only a short time later, or much further down the line.

I just don't want a situation where the lord is forced to promote when the player was planning on getting them a few more levels first, or having to wait several chapters for it to appear as putting their level 20 lord on the front lines would just be wasting experience.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Agreed. Though Ike's promotions come after the most trying and annoying chapters of all times, it still works because there are plenty of chapters to fully invest in the promotion. And then Radiant Dawn had the last story promotions before FE15, but that one is due to being a remake of Gaiden, where there was the first story-based promotions in Fire Emblem. 

It's annoying how despite the advancements, they never gave Marth any promotions in FE11 or 12. Like, REALLY? There were two times when Marth would have had a perfect chance to get a story based promotion. 

Shadow Dragon: End of Chapter 17, when Marth reclaims Altea. 

New Mystery: End of Chapter 14, when Marth received the Lightsphere and learned that he needed to save the world by completing the Fire Emblem. 

Story based promotions represent a coming of age ceremony for characters, symbolizing their growth and development. 

Bold: I disagree - they're a huge inconvenience gameplay wise, and what little good they do story wise does not even come close to making up for this (with the exception of, once again, Ike).

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If I had to choose one in theory, I'd choose storywise promotion. In practice, I'd say normal unit promotion.

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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: I disagree - they're a huge inconvenience gameplay wise, and what little good they do story wise does not even come close to making up for this (with the exception of, once again, Ike).

That's because before Ike's one in PoR, the others handled it very poorly. 

As I had given a previous example, a prime opportunity for a coming of age situation in the story for Roy would be Chapter 16/16x. There would be plenty of other chapters to do, and Roy would get promoted much earlier, and it fits very well into the story. 

Similar for Eliwood and Hector, where they get their story promotions way too late in the game when they really oughta get them much earlier. There are various chances to give them opportunities to promote. 

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6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's because before Ike's one in PoR, the others handled it very poorly. 

As I had given a previous example, a prime opportunity for a coming of age situation in the story for Roy would be Chapter 16/16x. There would be plenty of other chapters to do, and Roy would get promoted much earlier, and it fits very well into the story. 

Similar for Eliwood and Hector, where they get their story promotions way too late in the game when they really oughta get them much earlier. There are various chances to give them opportunities to promote. 

Still, the fact that Unintelligent Systems fucked it up as many times as they did is more than enough reason for me to want to never see plot based promotions ever again.

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If PoR followed BB's lead, Ike wouldn't have promoted until 3 chapters from the end, when he started wielding Ragnell.

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Still, the fact that Unintelligent Systems fucked it up as many times as they did is more than enough reason for me to want to never see plot based promotions ever again.

 

4 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

If PoR followed BB's lead, Ike wouldn't have promoted until 3 chapters from the end, when he started wielding Ragnell.

It was a problem because back then, they made personal legendary weapons be associated with promotions. That was a terrible call on their part, as the legendary weapon isn't what makes the character. The Tellius series ended up making the right call in having it that the special moment where the character shows their mark of growth or rank in the story that gives the promotion. 

Yes, they are late, but it's better late than never. 

The only other story based promotion after was Echoes, but because that's from a remake of Gaiden, it honestly doesn't count. 

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Let's go the Sigurd route and have the lord start already promoted. Or the Marth route in which the lord never promotes. Makes us avoid the whole issue altogether.

Seriously though, I think this can go either way. It's a big factor the way the game is structured. Length of the game, spread of the level curve, those kind of things. I think for the lord the promotion being story-based would be better, but the thing is, it has to be at a good balanced spot. Again, considering length of game and the level curve of the enemies, and so on.

Perhaps if the level system was like Genealogy's, where promotion doesn't reset the level number. I don't know...

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