The rights and wrongs of fanservice

[Hawkwing]

25 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Plum in TRS is a very weird case. Mostly because IIRC, it's the one case where Kaga is clearly playing with our expectations to mess with us.

Up until the kidnapping in question, the vague words of the slaver has us thinking the worst. And if I'm remembering correctly, which I think I am because I was expecting the worst, once we get back to Plum, there's not much to indicate anything sexual happened. When Barts shows up at the bar to rescue her, the slaver immediately tells him that nobody gets to touch Plum, and once Barts is done kicking the shit out of the slaver, he's mostly upset because he won't be able to see Plum dancing anymore.

Compared to the cases like Lara, which are left entirely for you to interpret on your own, and Leen, which... very much only has one real thing to take away, I think the Plum case wasn't meant to be as dire.

Five Things:

1. You've spoiled part of the games story for me. I don't know whether to thank or curse you for that.

2. I AM OVERJOYED THAT BARTS KICKS THAT SLIMEBALLS ASS!

3. I should probably have been patient and waited until the Lets Play updated to that part. Although to be fair, TV Tropes and a wiki were a bit too broad about how things played out exactly.

4. I had to look up that Lara and Leen are from the Judgral games and not TRS.

5. I am now even more thankful that the Tellius games toned down that aspect of the series, and that it stuck with future games.

[Slumber]

1 minute ago, Hawkwing said:

Five Things:

1. You've spoiled part of the games story for me. I don't know whether to thank or curse you for that.

2. I AM OVERJOYED THAT BARTS KICKS THAT SLIMEBALLS ASS!

3. I should probably have been patient and waited until the Lets Play updated to that part. Although to be fair, TV Tropes and a wiki were a bit too broad about how things played out exactly.

4. I had to look up that Lara and Leen are from the Judgral games and not TRS.

5. I am now even more thankful that the Tellius games toned down that aspect of the series, and that it stuck with future games.

Ma bad. I guess I shouldn't assume that anyone interested in TRS had played it already.

Also it's been 2 years since I played it last, so I might be totally wrong! In which case, boy are you in for a surprise.

[Hawkwing]

6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Ma bad. I guess I shouldn't assume that anyone interested in TRS had played it already.

Also it's been 2 years since I played it last, so I might be totally wrong! In which case, boy are you in for a surprise.

No problem. I jumped at mentioning Plum without knowing how everything played out first, so that part it is my fault (although the whole thing is still pretty infamous).

Besides, even if that part is spoiled for me, it just means that I can look forward to seeing it in action. I was hoping that slaver would have something coming for him...

[Tolvir]

I dont mind fanservice personally, nor do I mind fanservicey designs. Fates took it a step too much with the Camilla cutscene in BR, but that is the only time I have ever had an issue with where FE went with fanservice. And even then, I have seen far, far worst. That was only a slight annoyance.

I think fanservice isnt going anywhere, it never has to begin with. You can go all the way back to the original 3 games to see it. You can claim its gotten worst over time, but our Pegasus riders have always had miniskirts, thigh highs, and heels, so it really hasnt. And thats not even getting to things like Dancers.

And thats the thing. As long as it doesnt go to a downright almost pornographic route, and the designs match what they are going for with the character, I dont think its a problem. As attacked as Fates was for its fanservice, we still have characters like Selena who were fully clothed and had a great design. For every fanservicey character design in Fates, I can point to another that was fine. Obviously thats not counting the armor designs on the character models, but that was a mess in and of itself. I struggle to even call that fanservice, I never looked at one of those character models and thought "that looks attractive".

I think Tharja is actually a decent example of a fanservicey design done right. I admittedly have a bit of bias here, but I think the clear Egyptian inspiration being mixed with a fanservicey design worked well for the character and didnt feel out of place. The Dancers are also a good example, the entire point is that they are supposed to be in a rather revealing outfit, they are performers after all.

And outside of Camilla, I dont think we have ever crossed a point where we had fanservice directly bleed into the story. Even Awakening, I cant remember a single point where I had an ass shoved in my face, or some tit shot or something. Hell, Lucina has a really modest design compared to almost all female characters in the series, let alone the 3DS games. So I think we are alright there for the most part. And with Three Houses designs so far, I doubt we will be seeing any of it there either.

So as long as they keep going with what theyve been, excluding Camilla's cutscenes and the armor designs of the 3DS titles, I think FE is doing things right.

[Book Bro]

I literally googled "Camilla Fire Emblem different armour" and one of the first results was this:

Tell me she doesn't look better. And I like Camilla as she is, for the record. However, I do think that she, like many things in Fates, is wasted potential. She could've been a much better character if they'd focused on her history and psychological issues, instead of her "assets". Note that in this example of a redesign, she's still giving off the vibe of being sexy, confident, and strong, still shows off her curves and even some skin, but she actually looks like a warrior princess and not an exotic dancer. This redesign feels like it takes into account her role in the story and who she is as a character first, and then adds the fanservice, while her actual design is very clearly made with fanservice as a priority even if it doesn't make as much sense.

As a comparison, take Sonia from FE7. She's showing way more skin than Camilla, but that makes sense for her character, as her most important role in the story is seducing her way into a position of power, and she isn't a fighter, she's a mage, and on top of that she rarely gets her hands dirty as she has subordinates to do that for her.

There's also the issue of sexy fanservice being mostly geared toward women, even when it doesn't make sense. Why is Tharja showing so much skin but Henry is all covered up? They're both Plegian dark mages, and there's nothing in Tharja's personality that suggests she's a seductress or anything like that. None of the male "womanizer" characters in the series are showing skin anyway, so it's very clearly not necessary to get that part of their personality across. Similarly in Fates, Odin and Ophelia are both theatrical and their weird/flashy costumes fit them. Nyx though? She's a reserved, bitter mage who's much older than she looks. You'd think she would dress more conservatively. 

Tldr being sexy and showing skin is fine if it makes sense for the character, but I don't like when characters who have no business being half naked are for no logical reason other than because sex sells.

[Etrurian emperor]

31 minutes ago, Book Bro said:

As a comparison, take Sonia from FE7. She's showing way more skin than Camilla, but that makes sense for her character, as her most important role in the story is seducing her way into a position of power, and she isn't a fighter, she's a mage, and on top of that she rarely gets her hands dirty as she has subordinates to do that for her.

It also helps that you don't actually see Sonia's skin since GBA portraits only reach to someone's neck. Due that that and Sonia's portrait not really matching her artwork it took me a while to realize she was supposed to be ''sexy''. When I was a kid she reminded me more of a Disney wicked stepmother than eye candy. 

[Spatha]

On 29/01/2019 at 10:54 PM, Book Bro said:

I literally googled "Camilla Fire Emblem different armour" and one of the first results was this:

Tell me she doesn't look better. And I like Camilla as she is, for the record. However, I do think that she, like many things in Fates, is wasted potential. She could've been a much better character if they'd focused on her history and psychological issues, instead of her "assets". Note that in this example of a redesign, she's still giving off the vibe of being sexy, confident, and strong, still shows off her curves and even some skin, but she actually looks like a warrior princess and not an exotic dancer. This redesign feels like it takes into account her role in the story and who she is as a character first, and then adds the fanservice, while her actual design is very clearly made with fanservice as a priority even if it doesn't make as much sense.

As a comparison, take Sonia from FE7. She's showing way more skin than Camilla, but that makes sense for her character, as her most important role in the story is seducing her way into a position of power, and she isn't a fighter, she's a mage, and on top of that she rarely gets her hands dirty as she has subordinates to do that for her.

There's also the issue of sexy fanservice being mostly geared toward women, even when it doesn't make sense. Why is Tharja showing so much skin but Henry is all covered up? They're both Plegian dark mages, and there's nothing in Tharja's personality that suggests she's a seductress or anything like that. None of the male "womanizer" characters in the series are showing skin anyway, so it's very clearly not necessary to get that part of their personality across. Similarly in Fates, Odin and Ophelia are both theatrical and their weird/flashy costumes fit them. Nyx though? She's a reserved, bitter mage who's much older than she looks. You'd think she would dress more conservatively. 

Tldr being sexy and showing skin is fine if it makes sense for the character, but I don't like when characters who have no business being half naked are for no logical reason other than because sex sells.

As much as Camillia's design is ridiculous, this and many of the redesigns I've found on the net are somehow even terrible when compared with the original. It's like their only objective is clothing Camilia and not making an effective design that has her armor and looking good at the same time.

That redesign is terrible on two fronts. The redesign manages to make her even more generic and uninteresting to look at. She supposed a royal princess fighting in the battlefield yet that redesign makes her look like a common soldier when looking at it by itself.  Looking at Belka and Selena, you'd think she'd have a better access to have much beautiful stuff.

It gets worse when you commpare that redesign to the designs of Xander, Leon and Elise.

https://i.imgur.com/tO6dOED_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/ri2LX80_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/1Mi0a0I_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

They have elements that make them stand out and mark them as royalty. And the redesign also clashes with them as well.

Here's Minerva's design for comparison.

A person who don't know her character or story would easily identify her as a royal ready for battle

Edited January 31, 2019 by Spatha

[ping]

5 hours ago, Spatha said:

A person who don't know her character or story would easily identify her as a royal ready for battle

Why? What exactly does her design have that the fanmade Camilla design lacks and that screams "QUEEN"?

[Spatha]

19 minutes ago, ping said:

Why? What exactly does her design have that the fanmade Camilla design lacks and that screams "QUEEN"?

Camilia no queen my friend and neither does her redesign makes her look like a princess.

Here's official art of Minerva from FE warriors.

You can see from the this image and the earlier ones with Xander, Leo and Elise that they have a degree of fancy and beautiful elements that makes them look like royalty.

The redesign even removes some of the elements of the original that makes Camillia look like royalty.

[Yexin]

when they ask me about fanservice characters, i usually answer like this:

"i ask myself two questions:

1) does the character fit the definition of the word "fanservice"?

2) if said character does, is his/her fanservicey aspect well made and does he/she have a valid reason to be like that, or is he/she there just to show random wet muscles or oversized boobs?"

 

my two examples are, predictably, sonya and camilla, no males because main line FE titles appearently have no space for it

they both have big breasts, thick thighs, and lots of exposed skin, so imho they're both exaples of well made fanservice (if we take them out of their respective contests and consider them just as "women who are meant to be sexy")

the difference between these two examples are the reasons behind their designs

sonya is sexy and she knows it; she does nothing to hide her beauty because she was deprived of that (and of her femininity as a whole) when she was younger, so she wants to fully express this long restrained side of herself now that she can

this is what i call good fanservice

 

camilla on the other hand has a major problem: she had a very troubled childhood as well, which results in her overprotective behavior towards corrin, and this is fine

then what's the point with her outfit? is it her way to relieve corrin's presumed pain by letting him look at her voluptuous, almost naked body? if so, why does she never mention this?

it's so out of context that it makes me think that they wanted to make her dress like that just because it would've paired well with her obsessed yandere personality, making her the ultimate milf (and that's probably the only logical reason behind her outfit)

also, conquest's final cutscene and that one birthright's cutscene, where the camera focuses on camilla's boobs, ass and pubes, make literally no sense at all, they exist because they wanted them to, with no proper reason

this is what i call "bad fanservice"

 

there are also other cases: sonia, petrine and ishtar to name a few

they're sexy women as well: big boobs, quite revealing outfits and "femme fatale" traits, but the game never focuses on these sides of them, they're not presented as just sexy dolls whose only purpose is to make male players horny, because it wouldn't make sense, that's not their reason to be, and that's why we don't see julius groping ishtar's ass, for example

[ping]

5 hours ago, Spatha said:

Camilia no queen my friend and neither does her redesign makes her look like a princess.

I know. I was not being literal. I still don't get your point, though.

These are, side by side, the official artwork (from the main site) and the fanmade design. What exactly makes the right image less "royal"?

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, ping said:

I know. I was not being literal. I still don't get your point, though.

These are, side by side, the official artwork (from the main site) and the fanmade design. What exactly makes the right image less "royal"?

DAMN! This looks awesome! And way more realistic.

[thecrimsonflash]

51 minutes ago, ping said:

These are, side by side, the official artwork (from the main site) and the fanmade design. What exactly makes the right image less "royal"?

OG camilla looks way less rank and file, the exposed skin screams "I'll do what I want" whereas the redesign says "nohr military conscript"

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

OG camilla looks way less rank and file, the exposed skin screams "I'll do what I want" whereas the redesign says "nohr military conscript"

The redesign says Phazon Suit to me. And I don't mind that.

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[omegaxis1]

10 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

OG camilla looks way less rank and file, the exposed skin screams "I'll do what I want" whereas the redesign says "nohr military conscript"

The latter makes way more sense when you realize that's what Nohr is. And the fact that they are at war with Hoshido.

[thecrimsonflash]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

The latter makes way more sense when you realize that's what Nohr is. And the fact that they are at war with Hoshido.

but it makes no sense when you take camilla's personality and station into account, there is no sign of nobility whatsoever, no crests, no symbol of royalty (such as an easily defined crown) and the ponytail does not suit her.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

but it makes no sense when you take camilla's personality and station into account, there is no sign of nobility whatsoever, no crests, no symbol of royalty (such as an easily defined crown) and the ponytail does not suit her.

?

The original design doesn't have any of those features either. Are you just criticizing her design on the whole?

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, thecrimsonflash said:

but it makes no sense when you take camilla's personality and station into account, there is no sign of nobility whatsoever, no crests, no symbol of royalty (such as an easily defined crown) and the ponytail does not suit her.

Her station? She might be a princess, but you saw how she is savage when facing enemies. She is someone that has battled and will battle for the sake of her family. Also, though she does have a motherly nature, so I can agree to that much clashes with the design. Also, I think the ponytail works fine. 

Though overall, Camilla's design would not have been nearly as much of an outcry had it not been for the cutscenes just shove her parts in our faces. 

[ping]

2 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

OG camilla looks way less rank and file, the exposed skin screams "I'll do what I want" whereas the redesign says "nohr military conscript"

I am so reminded of Kate Beaton's Strong Female Characters right now

Quote

Where I come from, bullets are important, so this bra is part of my culture, you cannot judge that! Furthermore, this bullet belt underwear was my grandmother's, it's my heritage, I promisted to wear it when she died
You have to understand that exposing most of my body makes people focus on the star on my cap, and that star stands for America not to mention the freedom of movement, it's all very practical when you get down to it, people like you [well, people like me, I guess -ping] always read it the wrong way

i'm sorry, but even though I actually like the rest of Camilla's design, the only word that I can hear the exposed skin scream is "Faaaaaaanservice~~~".

(and is "I'll do what I want" really part of Camilla's character? I though she was mortally afraid of Garon and never, ever dared go against his orders)

[Sunwoo]

3 hours ago, ping said:

I know. I was not being literal. I still don't get your point, though.

These are, side by side, the official artwork (from the main site) and the fanmade design. What exactly makes the right image less "royal"?

Can I say that it's a teensy bit weird that the fan version doesn't have the lacy curtain thing in the front but still keeps the golden ribbon-like design that it was attached to? Other than that, the fanmade version looks nice.

[Anacybele]

That fanmade Camilla looks WAY better. Like, I can't really put it into words.

[Refa]

Fanservice is at its best when you don't notice that it exists. Knowledge of its existence hurts immersion by definition.

[omegaxis1]

27 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

That fanmade Camilla looks WAY better. Like, I can't really put it into words.

Isn't it great how you realize that her bust size is still the same? It's the same size, but not shoved in your face, which is what really ruined it for Camilla.

[bethany81707]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Isn't it great how you realize that her bust size is still the same? It's the same size, but not shoved in your face, which is what really ruined it for Camilla.

They are the same size? I've been thinking breastplates that size represented smaller breasts this whole time!

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

They are the same size? I've been thinking breastplates that size represented smaller breasts this whole time!

Silly, that's only for Cordelia. XD