Ascension - Buffing Outdated Units

[Fabulously Olivier]

This is an idea I've been working with for a while now.

While weapon refinery updates are a useful tool for improving the viability of weak or outdated units and making unappealing 5 star exclusive units more interesting, weapon refinery updates can't address fundamental problems like poor BST or lack of build diversity/strong innate skills. Another drawback of WR updates is that there are unstated rules (ie: units with a distant counter weapon can't receive a refinery update) that limit those units from receiving a buff even if they desperately need one (like Xander/Camus).

 

Anyway, without further ado, Ascension is a unit-specific buff that would require Ascension Crystals and other currencies to be obtained from arenas and a new mode. It would selectively improve the BST of that unit and give them a new, uninheritable skill. The reason said skill would be uninheritable is that said skill would be selectively chosen to improve that unit while not potentially breaking any other unit. Ascension carries over with merges and is displayed with an icon similar to Blessings and Supports.

 

A few examples:

Robin (M) and Robin (F)

Gain +3 attack, raising BST to 152.

New A Skill - Tactical Adept - Combines Triangle Adept 3 with Eirika's Sieglinde refinery effect (Boost attack, speed, def, and res in combat by highest bonus on allies within two spaces). Has an SP cost of 300. Cannot be inherited.

 

Xander

Gain +3 res, raising BST to 157.

New B Skill - Blood of Nohr - Combines QR 3 with Sturdy Stance 2. Has an SP cost of 300. Cannot be inherited.

 

Camus

Gains +2 res, raising BST to 157.

New B Skill - Unwavering Loyalty - Combines Vantage 3 with Brazen Def/Res 3. Has an SP cost of 300. Cannot be inherited.

 

Odin

Gain +3 spd, +1 def, and +1 res, raising BST to 152. 

New B skill - "MY ACHING BLOOD!" - If Special has a cooldown of 4 or 5, reduce Special cooldown by 2 and gain Atk/Spd/Def/Res +3 if unit enters combat with Special fully charged. Has an SP cost of 300. Cannot be inherited.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Etheus

[mampfoid]

I like the idea of buffing up outdated units (Xander is fun in TTs currently though). Wouldn't it be better to give them some nice inheritable skills instead of further making cool skills exclusive?

For example Raigh, he needs means to get stronger and means to be more interesting for SI. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, mampfoid said:

I like the idea of buffing up outdated units (Xander is fun in TTs currently though). Wouldn't it be better to give them some nice inheritable skills instead of further making cool skills exclusive?

For example Raigh, he needs means to get stronger and means to be more interesting for SI. 

My reasoning for it is as such. Let's say you give Raigh a very powerful skill which brings him up to par. This same skill is useful on Ishtar, Winter Tharja, or Celica, giving them a huge boost that they didn't require. In other words, Raigh's buff has no net effect on him, because a savvy player is going to put it to better use on a better unit, and the game's balance ends up getting worse, because already strong units receive a huge indirect buff.

[mampfoid]

34 minutes ago, Etheus said:

My reasoning for it is as such. Let's say you give Raigh a very powerful skill which brings him up to par. This same skill is useful on Ishtar, Winter Tharja, or Celica, giving them a huge boost that they didn't require. In other words, Raigh's buff has no net effect on him, because a savvy player is going to put it to better use on a better unit, and the game's balance ends up getting worse, because already strong units receive a huge indirect buff.

Makes sense. So the inheritable skill doesn't have to be too powerful, but helpful enough for the unit to be viable again (in combination with a BST boost and/or an exclusive skill). 

For example Odin would profit from DEF/RES Link, which would work with his prf in a unique way and would be good for SI. 

[Shoblongoo]

Like the idea of buffing old units with exclusive skill updates.

...though I think they could just buff old units by periodically giving them new exclusive skills to learn with good-old-fashion SP, and not create a whole new mechanic or currency to go with it.

Or make the learn requirement SP + Arena Medals (i.e. a currency that already exists and is massively underutilized, and doesn't really do anything except accumulate by the thousands in your inventory because you have almost nothing to do with it)

Edited January 29, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[Ice Dragon]

54 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Another drawback of WR updates is that there are unstated rules (ie: units with a distant counter weapon can't receive a refinery update)

This rule doesn't exist. The fact that no such weapon has yet received a refinement does not mean that they cannot receive a refinement.

The only rule we have is that "Gen 2" weapons are unlikely to receive a refinement until "Gen 3" weapons appear.

 

55 minutes ago, Etheus said:

that would require Ascension Crystals

We don't need yet another new resource.

 

57 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Gain +3 attack, raising BST to 152.

Gain +3 res, raising BST to 157.

Gains +2 res, raising BST to 157.

Gain +3 spd, +1 def, and +1 res, raising BST to 152.

That's not how stats work.

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

This rule doesn't exist. The fact that no such weapon has yet received a refinement does not mean that they cannot receive a refinement.

The only rule we have is that "Gen 2" weapons are unlikely to receive a refinement until "Gen 3" weapons appear.

 

We don't need yet another new resource.

 

That's not how stats work.

Fair enough. But by the same token, if even one such weapon is buffed via WR, it establishes a precedent that a DC weapon is a Gen 1 weapon, and thus all such weapons are eligible for the buff, even if said character doesn't need it. It isn't a rule, but it is a shaky foundation.

 

Fair enough on not needing a new currency. Perhaps this should just require arena medals and crystals.

 

There is no precedent for stats to work or to not work in such a way. BST doesn't include skills (other than Duel skills). The Ascension stat buff isn't a skill, but rather a flat bonus to BST meant explicitly to help arena scoring potential while slightly improving viability.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Etheus said:

Fair enough. But by the same token, if even one such weapon is buffed via WR, it establishes a precedent that a DC weapon is a Gen 1 weapon, and thus all such weapons are eligible for the buff, even if said character doesn't need it. It isn't a rule, but it is a shaky foundation.

I already hypothesize that the Distant Counter weapons are considered Gen 1 weapons and simply haven't received refines yet. The designers recently gave out conditional Distant Counter (Golden Dagger) and Close Counter (Naga), which makes it look like they're doing test runs for the weapons with Distant Counter as their base effect.

 

7 minutes ago, Etheus said:

There is no precedent for stats to work or to not work in such a way. BST doesn't include skills (other than Duel skills). The Ascension stat buff isn't a skill, but rather a flat bonus to BST meant explicitly to help arena scoring potential while slightly improving viability.

What I meant was that level 40 stats are composed of the unit's base stats and their growth rates and aren't just arbitrary points added here or there.

For example, Xander gaining +3 Res can only be achieved by adding +1 to his base Res and +5% to his Res growth. Camus gaining +2 Res is achieved by adding +5% to his Res growth.

Robin gaining +3 Atk can only be achieved by adding +1 to his base Atk and +5% to his Atk growth; however, that would result in him gaining +4 Atk if he had an Atk flaw.

So why does Xander get +1 more point of base stat than Gen 2 melee cavalry? Why does Camus not get that +1 extra point?

 

We have yet to see how the upcoming merge bonus works. It could work like an actual negation of the flaw (+1 point of base stat and +5% growth to that stat, meaning you won't see the full +3 or +4 points until near level 40) or it could be a flat stat bonus (meaning you'll get the +3 or +4 points in full even at level 1, which would be weird and I'll be sure to call it out as weird if it happens). If the latter, then arbitrary stat bonuses could be made to work, but I'm not betting on the implementation.

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I already hypothesize that the Distant Counter weapons are considered Gen 1 weapons and simply haven't received refines yet. The designers recently gave out conditional Distant Counter (Golden Dagger) and Close Counter (Naga), which makes it look like they're doing test runs for the weapons with Distant Counter as their base effect.

 

What I meant was that level 40 stats are composed of the unit's base stats and their growth rates and aren't just arbitrary points added here or there.

For example, Xander gaining +3 Res can only be achieved by adding +1 to his base Res and +5% to his Res growth. Camus gaining +2 Res is achieved by adding +5% to his Res growth.

Robin gaining +3 Atk can only be achieved by adding +1 to his base Atk and +5% to his Atk growth; however, that would result in him gaining +4 Atk if he had an Atk flaw.

So why does Xander get +1 more point of base stat than Gen 2 melee cavalry? Why does Camus not get that +1 extra point?

 

We have yet to see how the upcoming merge bonus works. It could work like an actual negation of the flaw (+1 point of base stat and +5% growth to that stat, meaning you won't see the full +3 or +4 points until near level 40) or it could be a flat stat bonus (meaning you'll get the +3 or +4 points in full even at level 1, which would be weird and I'll be sure to call it out as weird if it happens). If the latter, then arbitrary stat bonuses could be made to work, but I'm not betting on the implementation.

Interesting approach in adding the points to growth rates. Such is just more complicated to convey in a simple forum post.

 

Anyway, my examples were based around the BST of most gen 2 melee cavalry (namely Exalted Chrom, Hrid, Ares, and sword Reinhardt). I thought that this was a good baseline to balance these units around. 

[LuxSpes]

32 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Fair enough. But by the same token, if even one such weapon is buffed via WR, it establishes a precedent that a DC weapon is a Gen 1 weapon, and thus all such weapons are eligible for the buff, even if said character doesn't need it. It isn't a rule, but it is a shaky foundation.

 

Fair enough on not needing a new currency. Perhaps this should just require arena medals and crystals.

 

There is no precedent for stats to work or to not work in such a way. BST doesn't include skills (other than Duel skills). The Ascension stat buff isn't a skill, but rather a flat bonus to BST meant explicitly to help arena scoring potential while slightly improving viability.

With regards to how stats work in Heroes , every unit has a base stat total and growth rates. The default base stat total is 47 and growth rate total 255%, but there are modifiers depending on the unit's type :

Spoiler

 

source : https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/Stat_growth#Modifiers

 

So if you wanted to bring a Gen 1 infantry ranged unit like Robin or Odin in line with Gen 2, you'd have to do the following calculations :

BST = 47(Default) - 3(Ranged) + 1(Gen 2) = 45 instead of their original 44
Growth Rates Total = 255%(Default) -15%(Ranged) +10%(Gen 2) - 5%(Gen2 Ranged) = 245% instead of their original 240%

The results would be similar for melee cavalry units like Xander and Camus :

BST = 47(Default) -1(Cavalry) + 1(Gen 2) - 1(Gen2 Cavalry) = 46 unchanged from their original BST
Growth Rates total = 255%(Default) - 5%(Cavalry) + 10%(Gen2) -5%(Gen 2 Cavalry) = 255% instead of the original 250%

As for the idea of buffing older units, I don't think just giving them unique skills will completely fix one major problem with older units : minus a specific few units, they're terrible for Skill Inheritance. Even with a unique Skill, Raigh would still be a dud pull for anyone who doesn't want to build him. If you instead brought his BST in line with Gen 2, gave him a personal weapon and better inheritable skill, that would both make him better as a unit and increase his utility as skill fodder.

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by LuxSpes

[Jotari]

53 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

This rule doesn't exist. The fact that no such weapon has yet received a refinement does not mean that they cannot receive a refinement.

The only rule we have is that "Gen 2" weapons are unlikely to receive a refinement until "Gen 3" weapons appear.

 

We don't need yet another new resource.

 

That's not how stats work.

Hell considering you can forge Lightning Breath for stat boosts i'd say the rule is empirically disproven. Still they don't seem to be throwing a simple Renewal on Gradivus any time soon.

 

On topic, I think as someone else said they could just have new skills appear in unit's inventory in the same way units occasionally get new weapons independent of refines. Considering weapons are virtually identical to skills just in a different skill slot, that wouldn't be strange at all and I'm kind of surprised they haven't done it yet. If a new mechanic is really what it takes though then I'd rather there was just a skill shop where you could buy skills for units and some skills were prfs. Inheritance is cool and all but if I want to inherit Surtr's Steady Stance 4, then I'd rather not wait around until I just happen to draw someone with a Steady Stance 1 I can convert.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I think they're hesitant about buffing 3-4 star units outright because they're so easy to make merge projects out of compared to 5 star exclusives. If they never demote 5 star units than the only ones I think genuinely need help the most are ones like Leo, Lucina, Linde and Gen 1 seasonal units who cannot compete and cannot attain merges for more power.

I DO support the idea of enriching units with more skills to learn/inherit and have been since the Weapon Refinery gave units weapons for free. Not so much for the sake of uninheritable personal skills, but for the sake of making existing skills more common for skill inheritance. There are several skills locked to a 5 star, and often they are seasonal units, that have no business being that rare or being considered that powerful. And I'm sure most players would appreciate another 3-4 star unit packing reposition, Fury 3, or Quick Riposte 2.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Glennstavos

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Hell considering you can forge Lightning Breath for stat boosts i'd say the rule is empirically disproven. Still they don't seem to be throwing a simple Renewal on Gradivus any time soon.

Technically speaking, Lightning Breath is still a step down from other Distant Counter weapons due to it having the Special cooldown penalty.

[Fabulously Olivier]

I had considered Lightning Breath. Personally, I think that WR on Lightning Breath was always a mistake, but perhaps they view it as acceptable because it isn't a PRF, and therefore lowers arena scoring potential.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Technically speaking, Lightning Breath is still a step down from other Distant Counter weapons due to it having the Special cooldown penalty.

Well yeah, it also has less mt even when forged too because it's a generic weapon and not a prf (still hope they give us Hand Axes and Javelins some day with DC and the cooldown penalty, even though I'd personally never use them because who has time for non prfs outside of bladetomes?), but it still is undoubtedly a weapon with a Distant Counter effect. A semantic argument one way or the other, we're both in agreement that they easily could give Gradivus or Siegfried a forge yet they just haven't been inclined to yet.

3 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I had considered Lightning Breath. Personally, I think that WR on Lightning Breath was always a mistake, but perhaps they view it as acceptable because it isn't a PRF, and therefore lowers arena scoring potential.

Why? I don't think the refine makes it all that much better. I almost always want to use a Dragon's Prf over Lightning Breath, the only exception was Tiki until I actually gave her Distant Counter and could safely switch to Breath of Fog. Or do you mean a mistake as in someone literally did it by accident?

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jotari

[Fabulously Olivier]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well yeah, it also has less mt even when forged too because it's a generic weapon and not a prf (still hope they give us Hand Axes and Javelins some day with DC and the cooldown penalty, even though I'd personally never use them because who has time for non prfs outside of bladetomes?), but it still is undoubtedly a weapon with a Distant Counter effect. A semantic argument one way or the other, we're both in agreement that they easily could give Gradivus or Siegfried a forge yet they just haven't been inclined to yet.

Why? I don't think the refine makes it all that much better. I almost always want to use a Dragon's Prf over Lightning Breath, the only exception was Tiki until I actually gave her Distant Counter and could safely switch to Breath of Fog. Or do you mean a mistake as in someone literally did it by accident?

Well, it was a mistake more because of Adaptive Damage, which did a lot of damage to the meta and basically neutralized every mage and archer in the game, than stat refines. And yes, it does mean that any dragon PRFs are directly compared to LB. Often favorably, as they tend to have DC anyway, though it may be unfavorable for any dragons that get WR updates going forward if, like Tiki, they don't have built in DC.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Etheus

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Well, it was a mistake more because of Adaptive Damage, which did a lot of damage to the meta and basically neutralized every 2 mage and archer in the game, than stat refines. And yes, it does mean that any dragon PRFs are directly compared to LB. Often favorably, as they tend to have DC anyway, though it may be unfavorable for any dragons that get WR updates going forward if, like Tiki, they don't have built in DC.

I suppose I mostly ignore the Corrins of this world and focus mainly on the armoured dragons with generally great PRF weapons. Lightning Breath is obviously better than any other generic weapon a dragon might equip due to it's synergy with adaptive damage. I did make very liberal use of Lightning Breath back when I used Fae and Nowi in my early days, but now it's Great Flames and Expiration all the way. But even if Lightning Breath is comparable to PRFs that doesn't mean it's a mistake, it'd need out right superior to them for it to be a mistake (which it probably was a year ago before Grima showed up, but the playing field is different now).

[redlight]

I honestly think they should just give units exclusive skills that not only have a unique effect, but also give stat boosts to make up for the difference in gen 1 and 2 BST. The skills themselves would be readily available just like unrefined new uninheritable weapons

[Silith13]

Trade all of Oliver's speed for more HP.

[Fabulously Olivier]

It would seem that dragons, and especially legendary Tiki in particular set a precedent that DC weapons can/should have free effects attached. Tiki has dragon effectiveness on top of DC and adaptive damage.

 

So perhaps we should see Ragnell get Armorslayer, Raijinto get Adaptive Damage, etc.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Etheus

[Jotari]

Going with the idea of giving new skills to outdated units, here's some ideas. Opinions and feedback would be most welcome.

 

Eirika

Fencing Style - B Skill

If unit's Atk < foe's Atk+5, unit performs an immediate follow up attack. Based on Eirika's Blade from Awakening, which in turn might be based on how the game hacks Erikia to get another attack if you play the first chapter of Sacred Stones on easy. Not sure how warranted this is, she has a refine that seems pretty useful already, but my Eirika is -atk so she basically can't damage anything as is. I at least think it wouldn't make her broken which is the whole idea.

 

Nowi/Adult Tiki (and Nah if we ever get her)

Odd Rhythm - C Skill

At the start of Odd Numbered turns, grants Special Cooldown Count-1 to unit and adjacent ally. The Odd Wave skills were introduced after these units came on the scene despite Odd Rhythm being a Manakete skill introduced in Awakening. Given that it buffs Hit Rate and Avoid which doesn't exist in heroes, transferring the boosts to Special charge seems most appropriate. Alternatively just make it a combined Odd Attack/Speed Wave.

 

Fallen Takumi

Replicate - C Skill

Unit is registered as Adjacent to allied unit from up to two squares away. This means he gets spur buffs and contributes to Owltome buffs from a further distance. Kind niche usefulness but could work for some team set ups (I evidently care more about game loyalty than practicality).

 

Zephiel

Lightning Counter - A Skill

Unit can counter attack from any distance. If foe initiates combat, unit is immune to Armour Slaying effects. It still cheeses me off that Exaccess and the Binding Blade didn't get DC. King also wasn't considered an armored unit in Binding Blade to stop Zephiel being cheesed so that's a nice thing to throw onto it to stop it basically being a free Distant Counter to equip to him.

18 minutes ago, Etheus said:

It would seem that dragons, and especially legendary Tiki in particular set a precedent that DC weapons can/should have free effects attached. Tiki has dragon effectiveness on top of DC and adaptive damage.

 

So perhaps we should see Ragnell get Armorslayer, Raijinto get Adaptive Damage, etc.

Well as I understand it Dragon effectiveness has always been considered a "free" effect, hence all the Falchions with Renewal+Dragon Effectiveness+Another Skill. Still I do think pure DC weapons should be open to refine (on a selective basis, I think Grima and Zelgius are good enough not to need it). Armourslayer would be pretty great on Ragnell although my gut says give it Guard since Ragnell prevents Critical hits in Path of Radiance and Ike comes with Nihil when promoted in Radiant Dawn.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

13 minutes ago, Etheus said:

It would seem that dragons, and especially legendary Tiki in particular set a precedent that DC weapons can/should have free effects attached. Tiki has dragon effectiveness on top of DC and adaptive damage.

That's only because Legendary Tiki's weapon is based on a weapon that has dragon-effective damage to begin with.

It should have free effects attached, but why it should has nothing to do with Distant Counter. Adaptive damage comes from the fact that it's a breath weapon, and dragon-effective damage comes from Tiki's Mist Breath weapon from Mystery of the Emblem.

[Fabulously Olivier]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dragon effectiveness has always been considered a "free" effect, hence all the Falchions with Renewal+Dragon Effectiveness+Another Skill. Still I do think pure DC weapons should be open ive basis, I think Grima and Zelgius are good enough not to need it). Armourslayer would be pretty great on Ragnell although my gut says give it Guard since Ragnell prevents Critical hits in Path of Radiance and Ike comes with Nihil when promoted in Radiant Dawn.

 

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's only because Legendary Tiki's weapon is based on a weapon that has dragon-effective damage to begin with.

It should have free effects attached, but why it should has nothing to do with Distant Counter. Adaptive damage comes from the fact that it's a breath weapon, and dragon-effective damage comes from Tiki's Mist Breath weapon from Mystery of the Emblem.

Which is why I would keep such effects thematically appropriate. Armor Slayer makes since for Ragnell as a reference to The Black Knight's weakness to it. Adaptive Damage makes since for Raijinto because it hits foes with lightning from ranged (something that could be interpreted as a magical damage property, one might say). I'm sure one could come up with other examples.

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Which is why I would keep such effects thematically appropriate. Armor Slayer makes since for Ragnell as a reference to The Black Knight's weakness to it. Adaptive Damage makes since for Raijinto because it hits foes with lightning from ranged (something that could be interpreted as a magical damage property, one might say). I'm sure one could come up with other examples.

The Black Knight was not weak to Ragnell. He was strong against everything other than Ragnell.

Magic weapons in Heroes so far don't get adaptive damage to simulate targeting Res, they get Light Brand and Shining Bow's effect.

[Fabulously Olivier]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The Black Knight was not weak to Ragnell. He was strong against everything other than Ragnell.

Magic weapons in Heroes so far don't get adaptive damage to simulate targeting Res, they get Light Brand and Shining Bow's effect.

Eh. That's semantics. It still works, and would give Ike some value in the current metagame.

 

Fair point on the magic weapons. I wonder if such could be a reasonable effect for a DC weapon to have.