If all games had story promotions when would they be?

[Jotari]

So the topic talking about story Vs regular promotions has got me thinking, why if the games that don't have plot based promotions did. Namely Genealogy of the Holy War, Awakening and each branch of Fates. I suppose we could toss both of Marth's games in there too. You can speculate on sublords or other major characters too like Leif or Azura, give how we've seen people like Linoan and Sothe can story promotions before.

(This is not a thread to complain about the basic idea, we have one active now for that).

Edited February 2, 2019 by Jotari

[deskita]

Rowan and Lianna would probably promote when they get Facinna and Enliron.

Corrin would promote after visiting the Rainbow Sage, as for Azura I can see Chapter 15 in Conquest but I don't really know for other routes.

Chrom and Robin would promote after Chapter 11, to show how much they've grown over that time.

 

[Punished Dayni]

46 minutes ago, deskita said:

Corrin would promote after visiting the Rainbow Sage, as for Azura I can see Chapter 15 in Conquest but I don't really know for other routes.

I could see Azura getting a promotion around the time of chapter 18 in Revelations, while in Birthright maybe around Dragonfall Keep?

Marth's would both be after taking back Altea, in Genealogy and Thracia I'm not sure honestly if there's anyone to add, in BB Lilina and Roy could both promote after Etruria (Assuming that Lilina gets more of a role in the remake and they move Boi's promotion back to somewhere sensible), Nils could "Promote" after he and Ninian switch back in Chapter 27 (what this would mean is anyone's guess, theorise away), I don't really see it with Awakening because of how it handles promotion and Fates has been about covered.

I'll have to see if Tellius has anyone I could add.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, deskita said:

Rowan and Lianna would probably promote when they get Facinna and Enliron.

Corrin would promote after visiting the Rainbow Sage, as for Azura I can see Chapter 15 in Conquest but I don't really know for other routes.

Chrom and Robin would promote after Chapter 11, to show how much they've grown over that time.

 

Chapter 11 is the obvious place for Chrom and Robin, but I think that might actually be a bit too early for them. It's not at all impossible to get them both to 20/20 before the time skip, but I don't think it's exactly expected of players, especially since Master Seals are rather hard to come by before then. Maybe when they visit Tiki after Chapter 16 would be appropriate. That's also when the whole gems subplot gets introduced.

[Cysx]

Lyn seems a bit complicated. End of Lyn mode is way too early, and so is the liberation of Caelin in the main part of the game. Maybe give her a new personal bow that triggers it, obtained upon defeating Uhai, perhaps? Or rejoining with Rath(who would have to be recruited automatically then)?

Seliph could logically happen at Chalpy/getting the Tyrfing back, but that's very late.

[omegaxis1]

For Shadow Dragon and New Mystery, that's very easy. 

Shadow Dragon should be at the end of Chapter 17 when Marth reclaims Altea. It's a very good coming of age ceremony and really shows Marth's growth as a character, as despite how he returned home to find that his mother is dead and his sister is still missing, Marth endures the pain so that he can help his people. This is also the point when Marth begins to make his march to face the toughest foes, being Camus, Michalis, and Gharnef, as well as meeting Tiki before Camus. It's still a good time too, as Marth would have 8 more chapters at the very least when not counting the Gaiden chapters to make use of his promotion. 

New Mystery should be at the end of Chapter 14 when Marth attains the Lightsphere and discovers the secret of the Fire Emblem and realizes that he must complete it to save the world from the awakening of the Earth Dragons. It's also a very impressive timing to promote, as Marth will still have at best 12 chapters, including the 2 Gaiden chapters, to make use of the promotion. 

9 hours ago, deskita said:

Chrom and Robin would promote after Chapter 11, to show how much they've grown over that time.

1

Awakening is a bit tricky. This is because there are 3 arcs crammed into a single game. I can agree for Chrom's storybased promotion being at the end of 11, but I dunno about Robin. Robin's case is that Robin has no role for the story and is just a supporting character until the third arc, when he finally gets some spotlight. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

24 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Awakening is a bit tricky. This is because there are 3 arcs crammed into a single game. I can agree for Chrom's storybased promotion being at the end of 11, but I dunno about Robin. Robin's case is that Robin has no role for the story and is just a supporting character until the third arc, when he finally gets some spotlight. 

I'd say no to a story promotion for Robin, but instead sometime during the Grimleal Arc, they unlock a Personal Skill of some sort. Walhart and Aversa already have them, why not give Robin something like "Awakened Power"? A skill would be ideal, since unlike a class, it locks them into no particular role, and unlike a weapon, they can use it regardless of class.

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd say no to a story promotion for Robin, but instead sometime during the Grimleal Arc, they unlock a Personal Skill of some sort. Walhart and Aversa already have them, why not give Robin something like "Awakened Power"? A skill would be ideal, since unlike a class, it locks them into no particular role, and unlike a weapon, they can use it regardless of class.

But wouldn't "Awakened Power" be incorrect, as Robin spends the entire story of the Grimleal arc resisting Grima, meaning he resists his power.

[Interdimensional Observer]

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But wouldn't "Awakened Power" be incorrect, as Robin spends the entire story of the Grimleal arc resisting Grima, meaning he resists his power.

Admittedly, this is me wishing Robin, rather than spurn all the Grima powers, instead tried to control them against Grima. Which is what they do during the start of the final battle, and possibly at its end. Not so much a skill gained from becoming Grima, as a skill gained from an awakened awareness of being potentially Grima and having a sense, however limited, of being able to control that power.

To use my old go-to case from Castlevania. Soma gains the Power of Dominance when put in mortal danger, and the Power of Dominance is great, but they don't have to become Dracula if they use it. Becoming Dracula requires they will it (which happens in the bad ending of Dawn of Sorrow) or the Chaos overwhelm them (which almost happens at Aria of Sorrow's true end).

Edited February 2, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Admittedly, this is me wishing Robin, rather than spurn all the Grima powers, instead tried to control them against Grima. Which is what they do during the start of the final battle, and possibly at its end. Not so much a skill gained from becoming Grima, as a skill gained from an awakened awareness of being potentially Grima and having a sense, however limited, of being able to control that power.

It does seem clear that Robin used Grima's power to kill Grima. Could even be possible that Robin DID use Grima's powers to break free of Grima's control.

However, how would it work gameplay, exactly?

[Interdimensional Observer]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It does seem clear that Robin used Grima's power to kill Grima. Could even be possible that Robin DID use Grima's powers to break free of Grima's control.

However, how would it work gameplay, exactly?

That is not my concern exactly, I'm not in charge of gameplay development. But some form of versatile boost, usable in some way by practically any class, that is all I ask for. Grima's power should be enough to be shaped into practically any form of strengthening.

Admittedly, my idea for a personal skill was influenced by SMTIV: Apocalypse, where the MC becomes a Godslayer at the end and then gets their own Awakened Power, which allows them to pierce enemies' resistances to any and all attack types, and also gives them a 25% damage boost to every type of attack as well. All that is left at this point is a final dungeon, and most of the game the same would be done for Robin, so it can be quite potent.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[omegaxis1]

10 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That is not my concern exactly, I'm not in charge of gameplay development. But some form of versatile boost, usable in some way by practically any class, that is all I ask for. Grima's power should be enough to be shaped into practically any form of strengthening.

Admittedly, my idea for a personal skill was influenced by SMTIV: Apocalypse, where the MC becomes a Godslayer at the end and then gets their own Awakened Power, which grants them ignore resistances to all attack types on enemies, and also gives them a 25% damage boost to every type of attack as well. All that is left at this point is a final dungeon, and most of the game the same would be done for Robin, so it can be quite potent.

Maybe it would be a thing where Robin can damage Grima as well. Though Grima would need to be a stronger final boss and have a better map. 

I always feel that Grima's map should have been more versatile. They are on his body. Imagine if Grima can alter structures or such, as well as have a time limit, where like Gerxel, if they fail to reach and defeat Grima in time, Grima kills them all, save for Robin.

[Ertrick36]

For Marth's games, it'd have to be pretty damn late into the story.  He wouldn't even hit level 10 until about 13 chapters in, which is more than half of Book 1 in Mystery - not unless you were feeding him lots of kills/bosses or were abusing arenas or bosses.

In Genealogy, I'd imagine if it didn't just happen automatically once Seliph hit level 20, it'd probably happen as soon as he obtained Tyrfing.  Which would be quite a pain in the arse, though at least he wouldn't be forced to fight Arvis without promoted stats.

For Awakening, I just can't imagine it being anywhere other than right after Chrom kills Gangrel and gets married.

In the case of the avatars, I think they'd first have to heavily revamp how their default classes work because I strongly doubt people would be satisfied with their created characters being railroaded into using certain weapons and being stuck as standard infantry.  But beyond that, I guess Robin would promote when Chrom did and Corrin would promote as soon as he/she reunited with all of their siblings in either Birthright or Conquest, or in Revelation would promote upon the Yato's transformation into the Alpha Yato.

I guess if Azura is seen as a secondary protagonist, she'd also promote at the same time as Corrin.  Though given how shit-canned she was in the overall plot, I just don't see them giving her a story promotion.

 

This all is assuming they wouldn't be completely asinine about it like they were in Binding Blade and promote them at roughly the time everyone would be getting to level 20.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Chapter 11 is the obvious place for Chrom and Robin, but I think that might actually be a bit too early for them. It's not at all impossible to get them both to 20/20 before the time skip, but I don't think it's exactly expected of players, especially since Master Seals are rather hard to come by before then.

I think this is touching upon one of the major flaws behind forced story promotions, but that's obviously a discussion for another topic.

But imo, Chapter 11 is fine, and 16 is way too late.  I usually get Chrom pretty close to optimal promotion level by the time he faces Gangrel.  Robin, I'm typically reclassing before then, but he/she should also be just about ready to promote by Chapter 11.  At the very least, I think you should have a promoted unit by Chapter 13, or have reclassed one or more units.  The following chapters are not easy with unpromoted/non-reclassed units unless they're all level 20.

 

[NinjaMonkey]

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

Chapter 11 is the obvious place for Chrom and Robin, but I think that might actually be a bit too early for them. It's not at all impossible to get them both to 20/20 before the time skip, but I don't think it's exactly expected of players, especially since Master Seals are rather hard to come by before then. Maybe when they visit Tiki after Chapter 16 would be appropriate. That's also when the whole gems subplot gets introduced.

I usually have Chrom as a Cavalier at this point (having reclassed him) so what would he promote into, exactly? Also, Robin could be in any class the player wants them in, which is a further complication.

Edited February 2, 2019 by NinjaMonkey

[whase]

Hmm, makes me wonder, could a Fire Emblem game ever work with every single character getting story driven promotions? Most characters would also need a bit more screen time though, at least we need to see them more than just in the chapter they join, which could only be a good thing in my opinion.

[The Roger The Paladin]

7 minutes ago, whase said:

Hmm, makes me wonder, could a Fire Emblem game ever work with every single character getting story driven promotions? Most characters would also need a bit more screen time though, at least we need to see them more than just in the chapter they join, which could only be a good thing in my opinion.

You'd need less characters, and every possible death would have to be accounted for so the story still makes sense regardless. But it could potentially work. Might blow the difficulty out not being able to promote characters as needed. Interesting idea never-the-less.

[Jotari]

50 minutes ago, whase said:

Hmm, makes me wonder, could a Fire Emblem game ever work with every single character getting story driven promotions? Most characters would also need a bit more screen time though, at least we need to see them more than just in the chapter they join, which could only be a good thing in my opinion.

 

40 minutes ago, Mad-manakete said:

You'd need less characters, and every possible death would have to be accounted for so the story still makes sense regardless. But it could potentially work. Might blow the difficulty out not being able to promote characters as needed. Interesting idea never-the-less.

Could work with a game that's more RPG styled in concept. Like with a stronger cast of only about six characters. Could make for a fun hacking project for a relatively short game.

[Interdimensional Observer]

45 minutes ago, Mad-manakete said:

You'd need less characters, and every possible death would have to be accounted for so the story still makes sense regardless. But it could potentially work. Might blow the difficulty out not being able to promote characters as needed. Interesting idea never-the-less.

Berwick Saga, I haven't played it, but it seems to make promotions more than just hit 10 or higher and throw a seal on someone. For at least the following characters, I see what seems like character development-related promotions, which is close to story promotions as we could probably get.:

Spoiler

Christine

15

Bow 20 Crossbow 20

After completing Map 10: "The Holy Knight." Elbert must be alive.?

 

Ruby	10	Sword 20 Spear 20 S Shield 20	Must have leveled up after being permanently recruited.
Arthur	10	Sword 20 S Shield 20 M Shield 10	Must have leveled up after being permanently recruited.

 

Czene

10

-

Must have viewed all these city events: * Girl and Horse 1 — After Map 3: "Ponies and Thieves," if it was cleared by seizing. * Girl and Horse 2 — After Map 4: "Covering the Retreat" * Girl and Horse 3 — After Map 5: "Hold the Fort" or later, when Level 5+ * Girl and Horse 4 — After Map 6: "On the Front Line"s or later, when Level 10+ Note: The 3rd and 4th events cannot happen in the same chapter.

 

Faye

10

-

Automatically when permanently recruited.

 

Saphira

-

-

After completing Map 12-1: "The Heathen God," if all of the women were saved.

 

Enid

-

Magic 5*

At the start of the first chapter (from chapter 8 to 13) where all requirements are met. Must have viewed the city event "Magical Knight." Perceval must be alive.

 

[The Roger The Paladin]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

 

Could work with a game that's more RPG styled in concept. Like with a stronger cast of only about six characters. Could make for a fun hacking project for a relatively short game.

Might be a missed opportunity. After all, Tokyo Mirage Sessions exists, and that was definitely more of an RPG. Actually, I always wondered about the idea of doing more side games like Warriors, where you kind of put classic Fire Emblem characters into a new genre. For instance, maybe a Soul Calibur-esque fighting game picking classic characters throughout the series. Kind of a way to flesh out characters more after their games. Also it'd be a way to get a fighting game with more Fire Emblem focus so Smash Bros could not over-saturate with lords.

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

Might be a missed opportunity. After all, Tokyo Mirage Sessions exists, and that was definitely more of an RPG. Actually, I always wondered about the idea of doing more side games like Warriors, where you kind of put classic Fire Emblem characters into a new genre. For instance, maybe a Soul Calibur-esque fighting game picking classic characters throughout the series. Kind of a way to flesh out characters more after their games. Also it'd be a way to get a fighting game with more Fire Emblem focus so Smash Bros could not over-saturate with lords.

I'd only be happy with such if it were a more casual-friendly fighting game, like Smash. 

A spinoff game really shouldn't require players to be highly proficient in a completely different genre to be enjoyable to fans of the main series, and a combo-focused traditional fighter is just about the farthest thing from accessible. 

Though if we were to go that route, I'd say take For Honor, make all of the modes involve objectives, teams, and NPCs, and remove the bullshit like guard breaks and unblockable attacks, while adding in weapon swaps, the weapon triangle, and ranged magic/bows/etc.