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Supports in Three Houses

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So, as of right now, we know for a fact that 3 Houses will indeed have some form of supports in the game. Since the setting is also that of a school, I think it's safe to cross out children as I believe they will not be returning. But, do you think characters will still be able to marry one another? And I know this isn't super realistic but do you guys think that 3 Houses will have some form of LGBT+ representation? Fates had hardly any and Echoes had Leon so I'm curious as to weather they will add another gay character or not.

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46 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

So, as of right now, we know for a fact that 3 Houses will indeed have some form of supports in the game. Since the setting is also that of a school, I think it's safe to cross out children as I believe they will not be returning. But, do you think characters will still be able to marry one another? And I know this isn't super realistic but do you guys think that 3 Houses will have some form of LGBT+ representation? Fates had hardly any and Echoes had Leon so I'm curious as to weather they will add another gay character or not.

What about Niles? we've homosexual characthers since thracia, that is asking for thing already happened, modern gamers just disgust me

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To be fair, the first impression people had of Niles when the news dropped about there being same-sex marriage options, wasn't exactly positive mainly because his character and personality kind of contributes to the stereotype of that gay people are like that, which isn't true at all. So. though he is a candidate in that regard, I think they can do better with representing minorities because there's a difference between representation and GOOD representation. (That's just from observation and my interpretation so I'm sorry in advance if I said anything that was ignorant and please correct me in that case!)

But back to OP, I'm kind of on the fence about romance because I'm all for your students being romantic candidates to each other, but it'd be tricky to come up with an excuse if you bring Byleth into the picture. I've seen people talk about how the characters could agree to wait until graduation and what not but it still feels weird to my conscious, personally. But, whatever route they decide to go with, if I like it, yay - if I don't, then I just won't play it like that. 

I'm all for more LGBTQ+ representation since it's always nice seeing people happy and excited about being represented in some shape or form. I can only imagine how validating it feels to play something that gets you in that regard so - if it makes people happy, then it'll make me happy too!

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I believe all 8 students within each House will be able to support each other (or even reach S) since they’re shown to hangout together a lot. Byleth will also be able to support them but whether we can achieve S with the students is debatable. 

After the first arc, we will recruit characters outside of the School setting and I believe Byleth will be able to S support those characters. 

As for LGBTQ+ characters... I won’t be surprised if they include one or two and I feel like it will more likely be a male because of the fujoshi (and fudanshi) demographic and how they seem to push Male Byleth as the ‘canon’ avatar.

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I think it's possible, but not a likely inclusion.

As I am of the opinion the Academy stuff will only be a short term setting for the game, the Student x Teacher factor could potentially be argued as less of a troubling issue in the Post-Academy game since they probably won't technically be students/teachers anymore allowing for S-Ranks between them, but I mean it's still pretty creepy and pretty ethically murky. Especially I expect them to still all call you Teacher. And if the game does happen to maintain the school setting the whole time it wouldn't be unprecedented for them to have Student x Teacher relationships, it's been done before. Really a matter of what IS considers important to the franchise, which certainly could be the more salacious aspects. But at some point there will be non-student recruits that could be potential S-Supports for both teachers and students alike.

S-Ranks between just students and just adults is certainly possible in either scenario. But they may be going for a more platonic form of love and friendship with whole the school setting. Trying for that whole power of friendship and bonds of youth type thing as opposed to romantic bonds. So who knows at this point. I'd call it a toss up with what we know right now.

Personally I'd prefer they relegate marriage stuff to the post game credits again as it's really hard to make good declarations of love and marriage proposals in game after just 3 Support convos, especially if you have multiple options for S-Rank and not a single or much more limited choice of options. End game epilogue cards help to create the illusion of time passing and selling the idea of a relationship that's developed further beyond what we've only seen initially. So it would be nice if S-Ranks were more confirmations of love/attraction but not to the "lets get married" degree just the "I've really come to like you, lets date" degree.

I'm really not sure what to expect LGBTQ+ wise. Like they've acknowledged it a bit now but haven't really embraced it at all. If their are S-Supports I expect we'll get one gay and one lesbian option, but not really any more than that. So far the game is not doing well at all diversity wise from a race perspective which is disappointing, especially after Fates's one unequivocal triumph that was incorporating a non-European culture into the series. So I feel like it's one of things they'll pay lip service to but not really develop and expand upon anymore than what we've seen in the past.

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With representation it is best if it fits the game rather than being forced in there.  There has been really poor racial representation too, very few races outside of Oriental and European. 

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Oh, I feel S supports are definitely coming back and I bet Byleth will be included too because it has become such a popular feature of the game to let the player romance their waifu/husbando. Not to mention student/teacher romance was already done with Roy/Cecilia so I really don’t know why people are acting like this is a new low that IS hasn’t explored before and is completely off the table (not like anything will ever come close to the pseudo-incest of Fates... at least I hope not)

I’d be happy if they went back to the old C-A supports though or at least have it so that not every S support ends in romance and people are able to have non-romantic endings with each other.

As for LGBT+ representation, well, first off, I hope it’s included and explicitly stated that said character is LGBT+ instead of having it heavily hinted but at the end still being ambiguous like FE, and countless other games, have done so many times before.

Secondly, I want more than just a token LGBT+ character. There’s three reasons for this: 1. Gives LGBT+ players more than one option instead treating them like an afterthought. 2. Giving the LGBT+ characters a romance life outside of the Avatar. 3. More positive representation is never a bad thing as it’ll allow the game to appeal to a wider audience.

Lastly, I don’t want none of that “I’m only gay/lesbian if it’s with you” bullshit that writers love to use (screw Rhajat) and similarly, don’t throw that fricking homophobic “girls only date other girls to prepare themselves for real relationships” stereotype that Soleil pretty much had. Basically, don’t do anything to dismiss the characters sexuality in an attempt to... well I don’t even know what possesses a writer to do that. In an attempt to make them likable to bigots? Idk but just don’t do it.

Zero, Niles (yes, I consider them different), and Leon were good imo (I know there’s some who have problems with them) so I know IS isn’t incapable of writing interesting LGBT+ characters (or at least ones that aren’t offensive) they just need to work on it more and ditch those negative stereotypes.

Edited by NegativeExponents-

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Yeah, Soleil irritated me..it was not handled nice. And I just did not like her supports much overall, even with Kana it was just so so...these are reasons I never could grow fond of Soleil, because she felt contradicting to me. 

I think its likely they include it. If they bring it under a banner of stereotypes I don't know. They still have taken a step forward in fates. That should not be ignored, even if its not the solution players wished for.

And as mentioned here I also like colored representation more. Some artists even tend to whitewash characters (Look at Rinkah Cipher cards..just why?). But looking at the trailer it looks promising. Still hope for some more to come. I even hope that you can change the skin color of Byleth.

Another thing I want to mention on Fates I did not like about it. If you pair up Corrin with Niles or Rhajat you did it at the cost of a unit. It felt a bit like punishment for your decision, they could have included a character you only could get through these pairings.
But in three houses it will not be a case. Since it does not look like we will have child units. Which I would be glad for and I think more people would consider such pairings, if they now that it does not harm a "perfect" save stat. 

For now I just hope for improvement on relationships overall, I also would not mind them to switch it to the older system that only certain characters are romantically compatible with each other. Somehow this pairings just feel a bit more consistent written. Even with Camilla I thought that some supports with her are just a no go. I would not consider them.

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Said it before and as many times I'll say it many times again it'll obviously be included Byleth obviously being everyone of opposite sex with MAYBE a token LGB for each gender, w/ no 2nd gens. I already explain to death to why it obviously isn't a huge deal glad others are as well so moving on. I don't know about same sex options since it obviously isn't for me and IS clearly don't have that as a priority given how its handled and the 2 choices they went with so no comment.

Edited by Regal Edelgard Axe Master

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1 hour ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Secondly, I want more than just a token LGBT+ character. There’s three reasons for this: 1. Gives LGBT+ players more than one option instead treating them like an afterthought. 2. Giving the LGBT+ characters a romance life outside of the Avatar. 3. More positive representation is never a bad thing as it’ll allow the game to appeal to a wider audience.

Lastly, I don’t want none of that “I’m only gay/lesbian if it’s with you” bullshit that writers love to use (screw Rhajat) and similarly, don’t throw that fricking homophobic “girls only date other girls to prepare themselves for real relationships” stereotype that Soleil pretty much had. Basically, don’t do anything to dismiss the characters sexuality in an attempt to... well I don’t even know what possesses a writer to do that. In an attempt to make them likable to bigots? Idk but just don’t do it.

Zero, Niles (yes, I consider them different), and Leon were good imo (I know there’s some who have problems with them) so I know IS isn’t incapable of writing interesting LGBT+ characters (or at least ones that aren’t offensive) they just need to work on it more and ditch those negative stereotypes.

Yup, if romance is back, I really hope there's more than one option this time. I'd like to play as a girl and romance other girls, but if the one character they offer isn't my type (Rhajat), what's the point? And hard agree with them cutting out all that stuff to dismiss character's sexuality.

I just really hope we get a good lesbian character this time around (mainly to make up for the disaster that was Soleil). 

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People keep saying Byleth can't romance the students because of the implications. This isn't a high school, the characters are not kids. It's a military school, like the kind you go in New Mystery's prologue. They are all adults, and Byleth is certainly the same age as them if we go by appearances.

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4 minutes ago, Chopper... said:

People keep saying Byleth can't romance the students because of the implications. This isn't a high school, the characters are not kids. It's a military school, like the kind you go in New Mystery's prologue. They are all adults, and Byleth is certainly the same age as them if we go by appearances.

Age isn't the issue; it's the position of power Byleth has over the students because of their (Byleth's) position as teacher. 

Edited by vanguard333

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1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Age isn't the issue; it's the position of power Byleth has over the students because of their (Byleth's) position. 

Oh, well. I don't really see why that would stop IntSys when we've had incest and pedophilia before.

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I love Niles, but I do think the lack of an M/M option in Birthright was an issue. Rhajat had the same not-available-in-all-routes issue, as well as... other issues. Also, marrying either of them would lock you out of getting kids: there shouldn't be gameplay penalties for it. Leon was alright but didn't have the option to actually end up with a guy.

So I'd say there's stuff to work with and it's better than nothing, but the bar should be higher for future games. I don't want Byleth/student relationships to be a thing at all, but considering SOV's reception, I'm not inclined to get my hopes up.

I'd say a good expectation would be: for a game where the player character can hook up with the full cast like Awakening/Fates, there should be at least two M/M and two F/F options, with at least one of each not having the sort of baggage Rhajat does. Also if there's any sort of route split, at least one of each should be playable in each route. And no getting locked out of any gameplay mechanics for going for it. (If kids have to be involved, use magic or surrogates or something.) I think that's reasonable enough to ask for.

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Age isn't the issue; it's the position of power Byleth has over the students because of their (Byleth's) position as teacher. 

I don't want to be harsh, but that's a profoundly silly point of view. In Fate for examples, the royals could marry their retainers. The degree of power they had over their servants was MUCH higher than the theoretical power that Byleth has over his students. To say that a relationship in which one partner could casually order the execution or imprisonment of the other is fine, and yet a much more balanced relationship is not due to a label is kind of strange.

I mean honestly, ANY Royalty/Commoner marriage in the FE series is laughably lopsided when you think about it, but you rarely hear complaints about the idea of Roy marrying Thea. Or even putting nobility aside, a relationship between a military commander and his subordinates has the same issue. You, and many others, have chosen a weird sticking point.

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6 minutes ago, Onestep said:

I don't want to be harsh, but that's a profoundly silly point of view. In Fate for examples, the royals could marry their retainers. The degree of power they had over their servants was MUCH higher than the theoretical power that Byleth has over his students. To say that a relationship in which one partner could casually order the execution or imprisonment of the other is fine, and yet a much more balanced relationship is not due to a label is kind of strange.

I mean honestly, ANY Royalty/Commoner marriage in the FE series is laughably lopsided when you think about it, but you rarely hear complaints about the idea of Roy marrying Thea. Or even putting nobility aside, a relationship between a military commander and his subordinates has the same issue. You, and many others, have chosen a weird sticking point.

Or those are all issues?

I think the reason for this to be getting more complaints isn't a matter of being worse per se, but a matter it being a scenario with more connections to our own lives. Everyone here has probably had teachers and potentially students as well, but royalty and military command are other stories.

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I say there's a good chance we'll get at least two LGBT units. I don't mind S-ranks at all, but I don't want marriage to return. And for Naga's sake please no children.

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3 minutes ago, Othin said:

Or those are all issues?

I think the reason for this to be getting more complaints isn't a matter of being worse per se, but a matter it being a scenario with more connections to our own lives. Everyone here has probably had teachers and potentially students as well, but royalty and military command are other stories.

It's true that one is far more likely to be a teacher or student in real life than meet royalty or be in the military, but why does it matter? I mean, what exactly is people's complaint? Is it a moral one? Because if so, then they should have been lambasting a whole bunch of other relationships that the vast majority haven't. Do they think that this will encourage teachers or students in real life to pursue a romance? Because that's a hell of a leap of logic to make, and follows the same 'video games cause violence' argument that is derided by almost everyone.

The only thing I can think of is, as you said, is that it makes people uncomfortable/they dislike it, as a matter of personal taste. Which is fair enough. I'd just rather they just outright say that, rather than try and claim a moral highground and screaming  about 'power imbalances'. Of course, if you (or anyone else) happen to actually have put down and attacked every single relationship with power imbalances (most of them) in the series, then while I still don't agree with you, go absolutely wild on Three Houses. You've earned that right.

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The way I imagine it, the avatar can't marry students because that's gross and weird and nobody needs to be told this. But you will be forging non-romantic bonds with your students because that's part of the job description and neither weird nor gross. And I do think they'll have us playing match maker in some way with our students simply by deciding whom they support like any other fire emblem game. People just like shipping characters together.

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21 minutes ago, Onestep said:

It's true that one is far more likely to be a teacher or student in real life than meet royalty or be in the military, but why does it matter? I mean, what exactly is people's complaint? Is it a moral one? Because if so, then they should have been lambasting a whole bunch of other relationships that the vast majority haven't. Do they think that this will encourage teachers or students in real life to pursue a romance? Because that's a hell of a leap of logic to make, and follows the same 'video games cause violence' argument that is derided by almost everyone.

The only thing I can think of is, as you said, is that it makes people uncomfortable/they dislike it, as a matter of personal taste. Which is fair enough. I'd just rather they just outright say that, rather than try and claim a moral highground and screaming  about 'power imbalances'. Of course, if you (or anyone else) happen to actually have put down and attacked every single relationship with power imbalances (most of them) in the series, then while I still don't agree with you, go absolutely wild on Three Houses. You've earned that right.

Again, there's more nuance here that you're overlooking. For example, take Arvis/Dierdre. An awful relationship, arranged by villains, with awful results. I don't see a cause for complaint with that. This is a series where lots of shitty things happen, and that's fine, I just don't want the game to act like the shitty things are actually good.

On the other hand, when the player insert character is involved, and takes part in a marriage that should be super skeevy but is portrayed as all great and perfect and romantic? That's a lot more annoying, and it's an issue that started specifically with Awakening. It's still unlikely to have much effect on the frequency of those relationships in real life, but it does make it harder to take the setting and characters seriously. Particularly when there's a lot of those relationships. (Increased frequency of the issues is why it did a lot more to hurt Fates' setting and characters than Awakening's.)

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55 minutes ago, Onestep said:

I don't want to be harsh, but that's a profoundly silly point of view. In Fate for examples, the royals could marry their retainers. The degree of power they had over their servants was MUCH higher than the theoretical power that Byleth has over his students. To say that a relationship in which one partner could casually order the execution or imprisonment of the other is fine, and yet a much more balanced relationship is not due to a label is kind of strange.

I mean honestly, ANY Royalty/Commoner marriage in the FE series is laughably lopsided when you think about it, but you rarely hear complaints about the idea of Roy marrying Thea. Or even putting nobility aside, a relationship between a military commander and his subordinates has the same issue. You, and many others, have chosen a weird sticking point.

I never said I agreed or disagreed with it; I was merely pointing it out. 

As for royalty and retainers, yes; it is a much greater level of power, but it is a different kind of power (socio-political power, to be precise). In Fates; S-Supports typically end in engagement, at which point, if, for example, Takumi s-supported Oboro, then Oboro being the prince's betrothed would theoretically take precedence over her job as a retainer from any social, political or cultural viewpoint. 

By contrast, a teacher at a military academy s-supporting one of their own students. In the end, the teacher is ultimately responsible for whether they pass or fail as a student, and it can affect their judgement. And that's just one major difference.

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24 minutes ago, Othin said:

Again, there's more nuance here that you're overlooking. For example, take Arvis/Dierdre. An awful relationship, arranged by villains, with awful results. I don't see a cause for complaint with that. This is a series where lots of shitty things happen, and that's fine, I just don't want the game to act like the shitty things are actually good.

On the other hand, when the player insert character is involved, and takes part in a marriage that should be super skeevy but is portrayed as all great and perfect and romantic? That's a lot more annoying, and it's an issue that started specifically with Awakening. It's still unlikely to have much effect on the frequency of those relationships in real life, but it does make it harder to take the setting and characters seriously. Particularly when there's a lot of those relationships. (Increased frequency of the issues is why it did a lot more to hurt Fates' setting and characters than Awakening's.)

So your complaint is that it's the player's Avatar is involved, as opposed to a static separate character, and this lends something a creepy air to relationships that you would otherwise be OK with? That's fair enough. As I said, I have no problem with people taking a stance of personal dislike towards something, even if I disagree with them.

20 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I never said I agreed or disagreed with it; I was merely pointing it out. 

As for royalty and retainers, yes; it is a much greater level of power, but it is a different kind of power (socio-political power, to be precise). In Fates; S-Supports typically end in engagement, at which point, if, for example, Takumi s-supported Oboro, then Oboro being the prince's betrothed would theoretically take precedence over her job as a retainer from any social, political or cultural viewpoint. 

By contrast, a teacher at a military academy s-supporting one of their own students. In the end, the teacher is ultimately responsible for whether they pass or fail as a student, and it can affect their judgement. And that's just one major difference.

To play devil's advocate here, the forming of the relationship would still occur when the royal was of vastly higher status, and the other member might feel that they have no option but to accept the royal's affection. Obviously this isn't the case in the vast majority of supports, but I doubt that Byleth will pressure his students either.

And while one's judgement as a teacher could certainly be affected by emotions for a student, the same can be said of a military commander and those under his command. By that standard, almost no Lord or Avatar in the series should have been allowed to become romantically involved with anyone in their army.

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Guest Goov
54 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

The way I imagine it, the avatar can't marry students because that's gross and weird and nobody needs to be told this. But you will be forging non-romantic bonds with your students because that's part of the job description and neither weird nor gross. And I do think they'll have us playing match maker in some way with our students simply by deciding whom they support like any other fire emblem game. People just like shipping characters together.

Can't see that

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Guest Callum
4 minutes ago, Onestep said:

So your complaint is that it's the player's Avatar is involved, as opposed to a static separate character, and this lends something a creepy air to relationships that you would otherwise be OK with? That's fair enough. As I said, I have no problem with people taking a stance of personal dislike towards something, even if I disagree with them.

To play devil's advocate here, the forming of the relationship would still occur when the royal was of vastly higher status, and the other member might feel that they have no option but to accept the royal's affection. Obviously this isn't the case in the vast majority of supports, but I doubt that Byleth will pressure his students either.

And while one's judgement as a teacher could certainly be affected by emotions for a student, the same can be said of a military commander and those under his command. By that standard, almost no Lord or Avatar in the series should have been allowed to become romantically involved with anyone in their army.

Yeah agreed if anything it'll be a natural progression of affection between the 2 getting than assuming ones forcing the other in it work for Persona and a bunch of other JRPG with a relationship system.

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