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Supports in Three Houses

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13 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

*Disclaimer reminding there were dud supports in prior FEs too. See HectorxFlorina, VaidaxDorcas, TethysxRennac, KnollxLute, IlyanaxAnyone, etc.. Less quantity does not always equal higher quality.

 

I'm surprised this topic has gone on for so long. Or that a mod never stepped in for anything. Still, given I'm presently agnostic in my sexual preferences, I do support greater and good representation of the LGBTQI+ in gaming and all forms of entertainment media and society as a whole.

True. However, my impression is that despite the much higher total number of total supports in Awakening/Fates, the number of good supports was lower.

8 minutes ago, Onestep said:

I think both the time-accelerated babies and magic babies are both absurd. I've said as much.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I'm not part of the LGBTQ+ community, and I can't express what they want (and each segment of that community likely wants different things).

Fair enough.

10 minutes ago, Onestep said:

I've said what I want and why I think it's reasonable. I agree that if bad pandering is the way they're going, then it should be more inclusive. Everyone being bi is, by definition, not more inclusive, any more than the whole cast being gay or the whole cast being straight would be. More bisexuals and homosexuals overall would be more inclusive. I don't even care if they want to split it three equal ways.

Awakening was subject to mockery even when it was entirely straight. It's not a homosexual thing, it's a 'what was originally a solid fantasy SRPG series is becoming a dating sim' thing.

I agree that a mix of straight/gay/bi characters would be best. I added an edit to my previous post about this.

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2 minutes ago, Othin said:

True. However, my impression is that despite the much higher total number of total supports in Awakening/Fates, the number of good supports was lower.

I wouldn't mind trying to figure this out. Although this would require many reviewers with a variety of perspectives and favoring different games for a truly representative sampling. It would also require reading hundreds of three-four conversations. For SS alone, I think there are 83 Supports. So this is something totally infeasible.

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Here's a philosophical question. Is every version of Corrin bi? Male Corrin can marry Niles or any of the girls, Female Corrin can marry Rhajat or any of the guys. But I think there are a lot of straight players who would think of their Corrin as exclusively straight and a lot of gay players who would think of their Corrin as exclusively gay, and either way ignore the other options.

You could attribute that to Corrin being a player avatar, but I don't think that's the whole story. In Awakening and Fates, there are a lot of non-avatar characters who "could" marry a wide variety of characters, but the player chooses their tastes in determining who to pair them up with, if anyone.

Point is, just because the game allows a pair of characters to S rank does not necessarily reflect on the interests of every possible version of those characters. When people play a game, they choose one possible sequence of events to play out, which may imply all sorts of variation.

This isn't even exclusive to pairings. In FE8, depending on which route you play, characters who join during the route split turn out to be in different places, to coincidentally line up with your choice. L'Arachel, for example.

All this is to say that if a game were to allow all characters the option of S ranking both male and female characters, it's not necessarily as simple as "everyone is bi". I did refer to it that way earlier, but I think the more precise way of describing it would be to say that all the characters could be bi, but unless they have dialogue confirming it as a universal trait of theirs, they could be played/interpreted as exclusively straight or gay instead. Because when we play games, we determine what happens out of the possible outcomes even in ways that don't actually make any sense.

That's why I don't agree with the idea that it wouldn't improve inclusivity.

The 3DS pairing system isn't about making realistic, consistent characters. It's about wish fulfillment - at least, the kinds of wishes IS cares about.

---

I do think allowing all possible pairings between playable characters, regardless of gender, would get even more unwieldy than Awakening/Fates already are. But my impression is that for a game that's not trying to do a whole two generations thing, what IS really values for wish fulfillment purposes is allowing the player avatar to marry anyone, not so much universal pairings among the other characters.

I wonder how much more sane Fates could have seemed if it had Kana be the only kid and left out most of the non-Corrin marriages. More Corrin-focused, admittedly, which has its own downsides. But this seems like it could be a beneficial compromise.

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I wouldn't mind trying to figure this out. Although this would require many reviewers with a variety of perspectives and favoring different games for a truly representative sampling. It would also require reading hundreds of three-four conversations. For SS alone, I think there are 83 Supports. So this is something totally infeasible.

Yeah, seems less than feasible to actually measure.

Edited by Othin

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17 hours ago, kratoscar2008 said:

Well thats quite an uphill battle in Japan.

https://nypost.com/2019/01/25/japan-will-force-transgender-people-to-be-sterilized-before-transitioning/

They have LOOOOOOONG way to go before you get them to decide to be inclusive to the degree the west has been. Its just that this kind of thing has gotten people quite bitter on franchises, like for instance the Persona fanbase who wants gay and trans content but its just a thing that japanese are slowly (And i mean SLOWly) getting introduced into, so i think people just have to adjust expectations, moreso in a series which relies heavily in relationships like Fire Emblem and Persona do.

IS already did the first steps in fates but dont expect them to try to push the envelope just yet (Moreso when those steps were merely aiming at a demographic that doesnt really wants such content for the progressive aspect of it).

I am sorry but this doesnt prove anything.... especially when Japanese anime are full of gay characters and no oen bats an eye while "progressive west" disney hasn't given us any gay character!!

for example sailor moon had a lesbian couple, a gay couple, other gay characters and even in a sense trans (sailor stars) while all these were changed or were cut in sailor moon dub version....

so yeah real life politics doesnt always translate in art...

Edited by Pegasus Knight

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I can't imagine FETH will come anywhere close to the number of Supports that Awakening or Fates have if things really are going to be fully voiced which seems likely so far. So fears and worrying about the number of supports affecting the quality doesn't feel all that necessary or practical. Prior to Awakening/Fates the average # of supports was 102 with the high being 143 and low 68. Then came Awakening which alone had over 500 supports and then Fates nearly doubled it with over 1000. The amount of dialogue from just supports puts both in league with some of the largest games scripts out there with word counts in several hundreds of thousands.

So while FE has certainly gained prominence and importance as an IP for Nintendo it would still be a pretty colossal task and major financial investment to record that amount of VO that I just don't see it happening. So even expecting a far more conservative 200-300 Supports still seems uncertain as that's still many thousands of lines worth of dialogue to record. And this basically kills S-Supports and Kids in my mind save for maybe fixed canon pairings that player has no control over. 

The only alternative would be to not have Supports get VO, which could happen, but would be kind of odd to have some of the most intimate(romantically or not) and meaningful interactions between characters in the game not voiced while everything else is.

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3 minutes ago, Enduin said:

The only alternative would be to not have Supports get VO, which could happen, but would be kind of odd to have some of the most intimate(romantically or not) and meaningful interactions between characters in the game not voiced while everything else is.

Except isn't that sort of what has happened in supports for a while now? Both Awakening and Fates had the short lines that occurred in supports rather than reading the lines. I can easily see them doing that as a cost cutting measure.

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1 hour ago, Othin said:

Here's a philosophical question. Is every version of Corrin bi? Male Corrin can marry Niles or any of the girls, Female Corrin can marry Rhajat or any of the guys. But I think there are a lot of straight players who would think of their Corrin as exclusively straight and a lot of gay players who would think of their Corrin as exclusively gay, and either way ignore the other options.

You could attribute that to Corrin being a player avatar, but I don't think that's the whole story. In Awakening and Fates, there are a lot of non-avatar characters who "could" marry a wide variety of characters, but the player chooses their tastes in determining who to pair them up with, if anyone.

Point is, just because the game allows a pair of characters to S rank does not necessarily reflect on the interests of every possible version of those characters. When people play a game, they choose one possible sequence of events to play out, which may imply all sorts of variation.

This isn't even exclusive to pairings. In FE8, depending on which route you play, characters who join during the route split turn out to be in different places, to coincidentally line up with your choice. L'Arachel, for example.

All this is to say that if a game were to allow all characters the option of S ranking both male and female characters, it's not necessarily as simple as "everyone is bi". I did refer to it that way earlier, but I think the more precise way of describing it would be to say that all the characters could be bi, but unless they have dialogue confirming it as a universal trait of theirs, they could be played/interpreted as exclusively straight or gay instead. Because when we play games, we determine what happens out of the possible outcomes even in ways that don't actually make any sense.

That's why I don't agree with the idea that it wouldn't improve inclusivity.

The 3DS pairing system isn't about making realistic, consistent characters. It's about wish fulfillment - at least, the kinds of wishes IS cares about.

The difference is that the Avatar is, essentially, the player character. Some elements of their character (appearance, sexuality, some level of personal opinion on surrounding events) are up to the player to decide, rather than being defined entirely by the story. This is basically assumed an assumed trait of any player character. To apply the same to EVERY character in a game is more a headcanon thing than anything else.

That said, I can see what you're getting at. Certainly, some S supports entirely change the gist of the preceding supports as one character claims 'I was learning to play tennis to get closer to you because I love you!' and suddenly the perfectly innocent tennis games from the previous 3 supports become flirting. Presumably, a married character never intended to impress the other character with their serve so they could get married. They just wanted to play tennis.

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14 minutes ago, SimplyUnknown said:

Except isn't that sort of what has happened in supports for a while now? Both Awakening and Fates had the short lines that occurred in supports rather than reading the lines. I can easily see them doing that as a cost cutting measure.

There wasn't a whole lot of voiced dialogue to begin with in Awakening/Fates outside of the cutscenes. Most story events at the start/end of chapters also used truncated lines same as supports. That contrast will be a lot more apparent when the rest of the game uses full VO. They may still opt for it, but I doubt it. I'm still not even convinced we'll see Supports return in the same form as past games. The whole C-A format is rather limiting and while it's great from a gameplay perspective from a story perspective one size fits all isn't a great way to go about things. Some character interactions and relationships should get more attention while others really don't require a lot. It wouldn't be a bad idea to handle them differently, especially as they now have a lot more tools for depicting said interactions beyond portraits with the higher detailed character models and environments. 

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I hope the extra effort they put into the scenery of supports doesn't take away from the content of them because it seems like the scenery behind the characters will change depending on where the support conversations take place, which I like, I just want it to be handled well, a bit of an odd worry I know.

On another note, I personally can't wait to see some of the supports between Claude and the kids of the other members of the Leicester Alliance, this will give us a lot more backstory into how the alliance works, such as how many houses of Leicester form it. Leicester is by far the province I'm most interested in right now out of the 4(counting Garreg Mach).

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My hopes is that there is at least one M/M support and/or one F/F support that is between the characters (the students maybe?). Bisexual support would be the player with maybe one or two options. But I just don’t see it happening this time around unfortunately.

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I honestly think the most effective way they could write in LGBT characters is to not make marriage an S Supporting a big focus and make the lines a little more blurred, in a similar way to Leon, where it's never outright confirmed but it's implied through in game text and endings. It's a real injustice to include one or two non straight options and call it quits, so if they don't want to make it hard for themselves to make every character gay/bi, the best way to do it is to strip it back and make a character's sexuality a lot more subtle in order to imply more when it comes to A/S supports(if they are here) and endings.

Edited by HappyHawlucha.

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49 minutes ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

I honestly think the most effective way they could write in LGBT characters is to not make marriage an S Supporting a big focus and make the lines a little more blurred, in a similar way to Leon, where it's never outright confirmed but it's implied through in game text and endings. It's a real injustice to include one or two non straight options and call it quits, so if they don't want to make it hard for themselves to make every character gay/bi, the best way to do it is to strip it back and make a character's sexuality a lot more subtle in order to imply more when it comes to A/S supports(if they are here) and endings.

I'm not sure I would call Leon subtle, or "never outright confirmed". He may never say "I'm gay", if that's what you mean, but once you start having him go "you're not my type" at Kamui and go on about how and why Valbar is, or talking at you about how he fell in love with a guy, I'd say we're past simply implying it.

The problem with subtle is that people who forget LGBT characters are a possibility will not realize it, and people who don't want their faves to be LGBT will refuse to see it, clinging to the subtlety and lack of outright confirmation, which basically negates the "representation" part of having these characters. Yes, we'll be happy about their inclusion while playing the game on our own, but we'll be called delusional for it in almost every fandom space. See: any discussion about Ike. (And probably others; I haven't really looked around, say, the fe7 board yet, so I don't know if the likes of Lyn/Florina or Raven/Lucius are similarly just-platonic-friends-zoned. There are probably people who think Maribelle is straight, too, and she was anything but subtle.)

They've written characters this way, and it was nice, but now that video games as a whole are starting to catch up with reality on that level, we shouldn't have to settle for "implied".

Edited by Kori

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29 minutes ago, Kori said:

The problem with subtle is that people who forget LGBT characters are a possibility will not realize it

Subtle doesn't have to mean never once stating "Oh, I'm gay.". It just means no "Oh I'm gaaaaaaaayy!":wub:

Also, Ike? No absolutely definitive evidence on that, but let's not go down that road. I'm not anti-gay Ike BTW, I just leave it unresolved.

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3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Subtle doesn't have to mean never once stating "Oh, I'm gay.". It just means no "Oh I'm gaaaaaaaayy!":wub:

Also, Ike? No absolutely definitive evidence on that, but let's not go down that road. I'm not anti-gay Ike BTW, I just leave it unresolved.

But the reason of the “Is Ike straight/gay/bisexual” debacle is because of the subtlety. Not to say that there should be always a clear orientation of characters, but ultimately, subtlety creates divide because people can’t fully “claim” them.

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Medieval setting and those that go to school are probably not allowed in if they are gay.

With that in mind, I really don't care if they appear I just hope that their personality isn't "I'm gay, notice me you homophobe REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" because then it will get annoying and feel more like they are trying to be political and stuff. But I didn't really mind them being there in Fates and Echoes (Well I dont think Valbar and Leon have a pair ending?), the only problem and the only problem is........................................................ when it becomes too obvious, tell me, aside from SJWs and protesters, do you think gay people are always trying to make others notice that they are gay? No, I could have a gay friend for years without even knowing they are gay and it would be no problem and even stay like that once he told me or I found out.

But with the general thing of supports. I want more quality not quantity, I know some Senpai X Student  UwU BS will get there because JAPAN but with that I mean something like FE6 or 9 supports, especially with FE6 ones, with how they are short but you finish reading something like Hugh and Niime's and it's so good despite them being readable in under 3 minutes. Then again I'm a sucker for FE6 [Does the kaga laugh that he does in every interview].

Edited by Critical Sniper

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13 minutes ago, Critical Sniper said:

Medieval setting and those that go to school are probably not allowed in if they are gay.

Uhh... Why though? As far as I know there's not exactly much evidence that any of the settings in Fire Emblem mirror real world medieval sexual mores and a fair bit of evidence to the contrary, even beyond F!Corrin being able to marry Rhajat and M!Corrin Niles; it certainly didn't really come up if people in Shadows of Valentia were particularly prejudiced against Leon, and I believe that one of the paired endings in Sacred Stones implies a couple (one of them the future King no less) possibly having a child out of wedlock and it being accepted by society broadly, which would certainly be a big issue in pre-modern times.

Fodlan is a completely new setting certainly so, like, it could be different, but... I don't see much reason why it would be.

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24 minutes ago, Snack said:

Uhh... Why though? As far as I know there's not exactly much evidence that any of the settings in Fire Emblem mirror real world medieval sexual mores and a fair bit of evidence to the contrary, even beyond F!Corrin being able to marry Rhajat and M!Corrin Niles; it certainly didn't really come up if people in Shadows of Valentia were particularly prejudiced against Leon, and I believe that one of the paired endings in Sacred Stones implies a couple (one of them the future King no less) possibly having a child out of wedlock and it being accepted by society broadly, which would certainly be a big issue in pre-modern times.

Fodlan is a completely new setting certainly so, like, it could be different, but... I don't see much reason why it would be.

it still remains that it wasnt likely and it obvs is set in medieval times. I already stated how it's fine by me if there are LGBTQ+ characters  so no need to bring up a needess discussion m8

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6 hours ago, Othin said:

The 3DS pairing system isn't about making realistic, consistent characters. It's about wish fulfillment - at least, the kinds of wishes IS cares about.

---

I do think allowing all possible pairings between playable characters, regardless of gender, would get even more unwieldy than Awakening/Fates already are. But my impression is that for a game that's not trying to do a whole two generations thing, what IS really values for wish fulfillment purposes is allowing the player avatar to marry anyone, not so much universal pairings among the other characters.

I feel like Fates/Awakening’s support system wasn’t created with the purpose of wish fulfilment though and was more of a byproduct of adding another layer of strategy to the game. You see threads of people asking who the best mother/father is for a certain child. Even without the children units, people use Heart Seals to let characters access different classes that they normally won’t to get new skills. 

I think that claiming the support system for Fates and Awakening are there for player’s wish fulfilment is completely undermining the initial purpose of why IS decided to go that route.

Supports were initially meant to provide insights to characters and the setting. Which is also why I don’t agree with everyone being bisexual because THEN it completely becomes wish fulfilment and endless shipping which was never the focus of the game. 

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I think this is the problem with bringing up such discussion about LGBTQ+, it has gotten to the point that there really can't be much discussion/debate.  It is like walking on eggshells, any questioning brings an immediate strong accusation of being a homophobe.  This is the sake with many of these issues in the US.  Everyone deserves fair treatment, equal rights, etc.  However certain things need discussion and I won't go into it here, but they possibly step on other groups rights or have other problems.   Complex problems (I am not speaking of sexuality but issues otherwise) often don't have simple solutions.  Okay hard to know what I mean without giving an example, note this is not for this thread and don't want to derail it.  However there is debate that people should be able to compete in sports/athletic competitions as the gender they identify with.  The problem is the main reason sports are split between biological sex, is cause of the huge advantage males have over females in many of them.  The issues this presents are obvious. 

Relating to Fire Emblem well and most games particularly ones with a big budget, they are most going try to cater to the majority of their fanbase.  Now one can say that fanbase has to deal with all bi, or much more gay and trans representation.   However this is a game, entertainment, if something is going to hurt sales like IS is going to be very wary of it.  We see the treatment in Heroes, even though that is a gacha game and Three Houses likely won't pander so hard.  When we see loli, siscon, this kind of stuff it is commonly seen in anime.  Fire Emblem is appealing to the Japanese market primarily, and so stuff that is popular in media there is something they are going to try use as an example for how they design their own characters/supports/etc.  This is likely why ethnic diversity is almost nonexistent (like anime) and why there is some but very little LGBTQ representation and the ones there often fit an anime trope. 

Shouldn't this be a character discussion more than supports?  Supports I hope tell a lot about each character, depth to their history, insight into their personality and way of thinking stuff that may not be readily apparent, interests, motivations, etc.  

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7 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

I feel like Fates/Awakening’s support system wasn’t created with the purpose of wish fulfilment though and was more of a byproduct of adding another layer of strategy to the game. You see threads of people asking who the best mother/father is for a certain child. Even without the children units, people use Heart Seals to let characters access different classes that they normally won’t to get new skills. 

I think that claiming the support system for Fates and Awakening are there for player’s wish fulfilment is completely undermining the initial purpose of why IS decided to go that route.

Supports were initially meant to provide insights to characters and the setting. Which is also why I don’t agree with everyone being bisexual because THEN it completely becomes wish fulfilment and endless shipping which was never the focus of the game. 

I think Awakening's support system started out as a way to call back to FE4's generation system in the new approach of a time travel story. But the fact that Robin is the only character able to marry everyone, including the kids, is a clear instance of sacrificing making sense in favor of pandering to fans of the dating sim aspects. (And the back-from-the-dead Spotpass characters, for that matter.)

By the time Fates was released, that had emerged as a major selling point of the series, to the point where they got even more ridiculous to facilitate it with time-accelerated kids and marrying your siblings or your siblings' kids. They incorporated tactical functions into it, but that is not the main rationale behind it. We've had FE4 as a game that did focus primarily on the tactical aspects, and that one had some fixed pairings among the main characters for story reasons rather than finding ways to justify absolute nonsense.

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10 hours ago, zuibangde said:

Also, if everyone is written to be bisexual, we won't get to see interesting relationships like Gray/Clair or Leon/Valbar. Characters like Laslow and Charlotte will be even more shallow because now Laslow just flirts with anyone with legs and Charlotte will marry anyone with money regardless of their gender. The likelihood of having messily written characters like Soleil will also increase. Making everyone bisexual is just going to raise even more problems and not fix anything. 

To be fair, Charlotte could easily be bisexual as she is. She likes money. If a woman were to be loaded enough, Charlotte would probably not mind her being a woman.

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7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Subtle doesn't have to mean never once stating "Oh, I'm gay.". It just means no "Oh I'm gaaaaaaaayy!":wub:

Also, Ike? No absolutely definitive evidence on that, but let's not go down that road. I'm not anti-gay Ike BTW, I just leave it unresolved.

That's exactly my point. Enough evidence that you can make a case for it, but nothing definitive, thus a lot of discussions about him degenerate into the same argument and nobody is satisfied with the result or happy to see those pop up again. (But it was only an example and I definitely agree not to go down that road.)

And I'd be totally fine with the kind of subtle you mean (not even the "I'm gay" is necessary, as I said about Leon), just not with the kind that leaves enough room for doubt that everyone who sees it that way will be dismissed as a crazy fujoshi or what have you.

6 hours ago, Critical Sniper said:

Medieval setting and those that go to school are probably not allowed in if they are gay.

With that in mind, I really don't care if they appear I just hope that their personality isn't "I'm gay, notice me you homophobe REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" because then it will get annoying and feel more like they are trying to be political and stuff. But I didn't really mind them being there in Fates and Echoes (Well I dont think Valbar and Leon have a pair ending?), the only problem and the only problem is........................................................ when it becomes too obvious, tell me, aside from SJWs and protesters, do you think gay people are always trying to make others notice that they are gay? No, I could have a gay friend for years without even knowing they are gay and it would be no problem and even stay like that once he told me or I found out.

Of course you could, especially because it's often easier (or even in some cases, safer) not to advertise it, but this is a topic about supports and romance. So we assume that the hypothetical queer characters would be trying to make at least one person notice.

(And it's medieval fantasy, homophobia is not inherent to the setting. I have no doubt there will be some, but it will be because IS put it in there, even though there will probably be some characters' views on class (ie: at least some of Byleth's students will respect them in spite of their low social standing) that won't match with the oh-so-precious historical accuracy.)

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On 2/19/2019 at 4:31 AM, Onestep said:

You're correct in that more supports theoretically allow more fleshing out. But because they have to allow for every other support, they tend to be generic more often than not. The only truly unique things tend to occur in S supports, because those are the only areas the writers KNEW that the character would only have one of. There are exceptions, but the majority are pretty plain. They're like bread. There's substance and bulk, but it's not that interesting.

Also, I agree with the second point. It's quite rare that I get even half the cast to pair up.

You talk as if Matthew had more supports that would somehow deteriorate quality of the supports he already have.

 

21 hours ago, zuibangde said:

To add on to this, Fire Emblem already gets made fun of outside of the community for being a dating sim. Having everyone being able to romance each other is just going to make Fire Emblem an even bigger laughing stock. Not to mention that there are games in Japan that do the pairing/shipping thing way better than FE already so there's no need for FE to even go this route.

And why exactly should any of us care about the opinion of outsiders? Last time I check they didn't anything for this fandom or the franchise. Fire Emblem already gets the ire of other communities for simply saving itself, why should IS ever pander to them?

 

20 hours ago, Onestep said:

Awakening was subject to mockery even when it was entirely straight. It's not a homosexual thing, it's a 'what was originally a solid fantasy SRPG series is becoming a dating sim' thing.

Didn't exactly hurt Persona series.

GBA era support isn't as grand as people made it out to be either.

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