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Supports in Three Houses

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5 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

why exactly should any of us care about the opinion of outsiders? Last time I check they didn't anything for this fandom or the franchise. Fire Emblem already gets the ire of other communities for simply saving itself, why should IS ever pander to them?

 

Because that's how the series will grow and survive? Some people enjoy playing tactical games but are reluctant to try FE due to the fanservice and dating sim aspects. If you don't want the series to die, you have to do something to attract the audience that is not currently playing FE.

Awakening saved the franchise because it cranked up the supports system which attracted the so-called 'casual' fans. Without these 'outsiders', we won't even have this discussion right now. Fates cranked it up even more and received backlash. If they crank it up even more not only will they lose the potential audience for the game, they'll also push away the fans that play for the tactical elements.

There's a reason why Wargroove, XCOM and Into The Breach are such popular games.

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10 hours ago, zuibangde said:

Because that's how the series will grow and survive? Some people enjoy playing tactical games but are reluctant to try FE due to the fanservice and dating sim aspects. If you don't want the series to die, you have to do something to attract the audience that is not currently playing FE.

Awakening saved the franchise because it cranked up the supports system which attracted the so-called 'casual' fans. Without these 'outsiders', we won't even have this discussion right now. Fates cranked it up even more and received backlash. If they crank it up even more not only will they lose the potential audience for the game, they'll also push away the fans that play for the tactical elements.

There's a reason why Wargroove, XCOM and Into The Breach are such popular games.

Those people had well over a decade to get into the franchise & the end result is that they didn't. IS got lucky with Awakening because it became more accessible & appealing overall.

 

I'm being unrealistic when it comes to everyone being bi sexual, but having only 4 gay options at most is just as absurdly limited

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6 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

I'm being unrealistic when it comes to everyone being bi sexual, but having only 4 gay options at most is just as absurdly limited

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel about it, even though everyone being bi is unrealistic, it won't be something that would stop me from sleeping at night if they made it happened though.

 

Like I would have understood if they only made like few characters gay or bi if the game didn't have S supports (like in FE15) but if it's a game where anyone can marry almost anyone, it would suck for someone to get so limited options. 

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9 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

Those people had well over a decade to get into the franchise & the end result is that they didn't. IS got lucky with Awakening because it became more accessible & appealing overall.

What is with this gatekeeping attitude?

So people that are born after the games were released aren’t allowed to get into FE? How about people that can’t read Japanese or English? Echoes was the first FE game to get translated into Chinese so they didn’t have access to official translations of previous games, are they not allowed to get what they want in future FE games? Or people that didn’t have the systems needed to play FE games when they were young but can finally afford their own Switch, should we ignore them too? 

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On 2/20/2019 at 12:33 AM, Kori said:

I'm not sure I would call Leon subtle, or "never outright confirmed". He may never say "I'm gay", if that's what you mean, but once you start having him go "you're not my type" at Kamui and go on about how and why Valbar is, or talking at you about how he fell in love with a guy, I'd say we're past simply implying it.

The problem with subtle is that people who forget LGBT characters are a possibility will not realize it, and people who don't want their faves to be LGBT will refuse to see it, clinging to the subtlety and lack of outright confirmation, which basically negates the "representation" part of having these characters. Yes, we'll be happy about their inclusion while playing the game on our own, but we'll be called delusional for it in almost every fandom space. See: any discussion about Ike. (And probably others; I haven't really looked around, say, the fe7 board yet, so I don't know if the likes of Lyn/Florina or Raven/Lucius are similarly just-platonic-friends-zoned. There are probably people who think Maribelle is straight, too, and she was anything but subtle.)

They've written characters this way, and it was nice, but now that video games as a whole are starting to catch up with reality on that level, we shouldn't have to settle for "implied".

Ike is gay? no wonder he is my fave...

On 2/20/2019 at 2:36 AM, Critical Sniper said:

Medieval setting and those that go to school are probably not allowed in if they are gay.

With that in mind, I really don't care if they appear I just hope that their personality isn't "I'm gay, notice me you homophobe REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" because then it will get annoying and feel more like they are trying to be political and stuff. But I didn't really mind them being there in Fates and Echoes (Well I dont think Valbar and Leon have a pair ending?), the only problem and the only problem is........................................................ when it becomes too obvious, tell me, aside from SJWs and protesters, do you think gay people are always trying to make others notice that they are gay? No, I could have a gay friend for years without even knowing they are gay and it would be no problem and even stay like that once he told me or I found out.

But with the general thing of supports. I want more quality not quantity, I know some Senpai X Student  UwU BS will get there because JAPAN but with that I mean something like FE6 or 9 supports, especially with FE6 ones, with how they are short but you finish reading something like Hugh and Niime's and it's so good despite them being readable in under 3 minutes. Then again I'm a sucker for FE6 [Does the kaga laugh that he does in every interview].

Medieval setting has nothing to do with gay pairings.... If the medieval  setting was so oppressive over the franchise then we wouldn't have any female warriors/leaders and any otehr occupation than wives. prostitutes or mothers cause women were oppressed during that period of time ....

Also what do u mean Gay people are trying to make others notice they are gay.... Str8 people do it all the time.... The kiss each otehr outside, they have a relationship status and photos on social media etc Gay people arent allowed that and if they ever try anything like that then we get the "gay people try to make a scene and people notice their sexuality".... Also you cant have a friend and don't know whether he is gay or str8.. dont friends talk about sex and relationships?

On 2/20/2019 at 4:01 AM, Lewyn said:

I think this is the problem with bringing up such discussion about LGBTQ+, it has gotten to the point that there really can't be much discussion/debate.  It is like walking on eggshells, any questioning brings an immediate strong accusation of being a homophobe.  This is the sake with many of these issues in the US.  Everyone deserves fair treatment, equal rights, etc.  However certain things need discussion and I won't go into it here, but they possibly step on other groups rights or have other problems.   Complex problems (I am not speaking of sexuality but issues otherwise) often don't have simple solutions.  Okay hard to know what I mean without giving an example, note this is not for this thread and don't want to derail it.  However there is debate that people should be able to compete in sports/athletic competitions as the gender they identify with.  The problem is the main reason sports are split between biological sex, is cause of the huge advantage males have over females in many of them.  The issues this presents are obvious. 

Relating to Fire Emblem well and most games particularly ones with a big budget, they are most going try to cater to the majority of their fanbase.  Now one can say that fanbase has to deal with all bi, or much more gay and trans representation.   However this is a game, entertainment, if something is going to hurt sales like IS is going to be very wary of it.  We see the treatment in Heroes, even though that is a gacha game and Three Houses likely won't pander so hard.  When we see loli, siscon, this kind of stuff it is commonly seen in anime.  Fire Emblem is appealing to the Japanese market primarily, and so stuff that is popular in media there is something they are going to try use as an example for how they design their own characters/supports/etc.  This is likely why ethnic diversity is almost nonexistent (like anime) and why there is some but very little LGBTQ representation and the ones there often fit an anime trope. 

Shouldn't this be a character discussion more than supports?  Supports I hope tell a lot about each character, depth to their history, insight into their personality and way of thinking stuff that may not be readily apparent, interests, motivations, etc.  

well unlike the issue u brought this is a very insignificant issue so yeah most questionings in diversity in movies and games should be viewed as homophobic or racist because that's what they are... I dotn see why anyone would have a problem if we have more than 1 gay characters or if anyone can be Bi to the protagonist or if we didnt had an avatar and teh protagonist (ex ike) would be gay...

As for money talk... rest assure that in a capitalistic system  companies have put the numbers into account and they saw that having more diversity actually brings more money than not having.... otherwise rest assured that they wouldn't even try it... there are money making companies not civil rights activists... thats why queer baiting is so strong in movies/tv series these days

Also please dont use the Japanese market as an argument cause most of it is empty words... anime had gay characters for years and i never saw any backlash while disney havent gave us any LBGTQ character....

Edited by Pegasus Knight

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6 hours ago, Pegasus Knight said:

 

well unlike the issue u brought this is a very insignificant issue so yeah most questionings in diversity in movies and games should be viewed as homophobic or racist because that's what they are... I dotn see why anyone would have a problem if we have more than 1 gay characters or if anyone can be Bi to the protagonist or if we didnt had an avatar and teh protagonist (ex ike) would be gay...

As for money talk... rest assure that in a capitalistic system  companies have put the numbers into account and they saw that having more diversity actually brings more money than not having.... otherwise rest assured that they wouldn't even try it... there are money making companies not civil rights activists... thats why queer baiting is so strong in movies/tv series these days

Also please dont use the Japanese market as an argument cause most of it is empty words... anime had gay characters for years and i never saw any backlash while disney havent gave us any LBGTQ character....

Movies and Television in America is overall very progressive, it isn't just about money.  We have much female empowerment and huge queer representation, in fact entire movies based on transgender or gay issues.  Even at the risk of such films bombing badly (and some indeed do), they put it out for the sake of art, pushing things forward, etc.  We aren't talking about a new game or new company here.  We are talking about IS, we are talking about a series that debuted on the NES.  How progressive have they been thusfar?  Why do people expect there is suddenly with this game going to be tons more representation?  I think maybe there might be a little more than Fates but IS does indeed care a lot about sales which is why we have Camilla's amazing pandering skills and all the anime tropes we got in Fates.  They are more about sales than ever before.  

Also can't compare anime to Disney which is mostly aimed at children.  Anime is for all audiences, a better comparison is anime and Japanese film compared to American cinema.  Which has been more progressive?  What culture is overall more accepting of diversity in sexuality, gender, and ethnicity? 

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36 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Movies and Television in America is overall very progressive, it isn't just about money.  We have much female empowerment and huge queer representation, in fact entire movies based on transgender or gay issues.  Even at the risk of such films bombing badly (and some indeed do), they put it out for the sake of art, pushing things forward, etc.  We aren't talking about a new game or new company here.  We are talking about IS, we are talking about a series that debuted on the NES.  How progressive have they been thusfar?  Why do people expect there is suddenly with this game going to be tons more representation?  I think maybe there might be a little more than Fates but IS does indeed care a lot about sales which is why we have Camilla's amazing pandering skills and all the anime tropes we got in Fates.  They are more about sales than ever before.  

Also can't compare anime to Disney which is mostly aimed at children.  Anime is for all audiences, a better comparison is anime and Japanese film compared to American cinema.  Which has been more progressive?  What culture is overall more accepting of diversity in sexuality, gender, and ethnicity? 

well no one expecting IS to give us a perfect representation we just hope for the best so more than Fates means 2 gay characters? i would be extremely happy with that... heck even if have 1 that isnt controversial like nyles and rhajat...

 

flash news but America isnt the only place in the world just the loudest.... LGBTQ movies for the sake of art and representation are happening to many otehr countries... included Japan... and this is irrelevant we arent talking indie companies and efforts here we discussing Big companies who's only goal is money.... when companies adopt campaigns to raise awareness for the environment or for any social issue rest assure they don't it out of kindness but because these actions translates to money in one way or another....

You can compare anime with Disney because i didn't compare all anime BUT shonen and shoujo who are targeted to children... and sailor moon an anime aimed at young children back in the 90's was full of gay characters while disney is afraid because of homophobic parents... oh well give it  a lil more time and they soon will bend.... the world becomes a lil more progressive time by time and that translates to money and thats what Disney loves more....

Edited by Pegasus Knight

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8 hours ago, Pegasus Knight said:

Medieval setting has nothing to do with gay pairings.... If the medieval  setting was so oppressive over the franchise then we wouldn't have any female warriors/leaders and any otehr occupation than wives. prostitutes or mothers cause women were oppressed during that period of time ....

Also what do u mean Gay people are trying to make others notice they are gay.... Str8 people do it all the time.... The kiss each otehr outside, they have a relationship status and photos on social media etc Gay people arent allowed that and if they ever try anything like that then we get the "gay people try to make a scene and people notice their sexuality".... Also you cant have a friend and don't know whether he is gay or str8.. dont friends talk about sex and relationships?

If we are talking medieval times I say both sides suffered, not only were Men the ones that were working the soil day in day out but they were also conscripted for suicide squad militias in pesky small feudal battles. Women were raped a lot and didn't have any representation so it kinda equals out. I mean sort of, one side dies when the lords said so and the other basically didn't exist.

I remember specifying gay activists or those SJWs didn't I?  I can have a friend and not know his sexuality, he might be afraid of it. And no, men aren't talking about sex every 7 seconds or whatever the myth is. Sometimes yes but, at the very least for myself, I don't do a checkup on each of my friend's sexuality, if you do you have issues, because why would it matter?

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On 2019-02-19 at 5:33 PM, Kori said:

I'm not sure I would call Leon subtle, or "never outright confirmed". He may never say "I'm gay", if that's what you mean, but once you start having him go "you're not my type" at Kamui and go on about how and why Valbar is, or talking at you about how he fell in love with a guy, I'd say we're past simply implying it.

The problem with subtle is that people who forget LGBT characters are a possibility will not realize it, and people who don't want their faves to be LGBT will refuse to see it, clinging to the subtlety and lack of outright confirmation, which basically negates the "representation" part of having these characters. Yes, we'll be happy about their inclusion while playing the game on our own, but we'll be called delusional for it in almost every fandom space. See: any discussion about Ike. (And probably others; I haven't really looked around, say, the fe7 board yet, so I don't know if the likes of Lyn/Florina or Raven/Lucius are similarly just-platonic-friends-zoned. There are probably people who think Maribelle is straight, too, and she was anything but subtle.)

They've written characters this way, and it was nice, but now that video games as a whole are starting to catch up with reality on that level, we shouldn't have to settle for "implied".

The thing about Ike is that, given what's there, you could say there's no indication towards any particular orientation, or multiple or even contradictory indicators; a lot of it comes down to interpretation given what's there. Part of that is thanks to localization differences, while other parts of it are simply due to how Ike is written as a character. 

Because the version of Path of Radiance I (and many) played was the NA localization, which heavily implied Ike and Elincia having romantic feelings for each other while clearly defining Ike and Soren's relationship as that of two close friends; similarly to Sherlock Holmes and Watson (the book versions) and many other examples, I and many were left with that interpretation about Ike, and that interpretation is not inherently less valid than anyone else's. Even if IS were to say, "The intent was always Ike and Soren", that would be one interpretation no more or less valid than anyone else's thanks to The Death of the Author

To clarify, if someone interpreted it as Ike and Soren, I would not inherently disagree with anyone, nor would I disagree with anyone who thought Ike was Ace after playing PoR and RD based on what was written. I would only disagree if someone presented evidence that wasn't actually in the game, or was presented out-of-context. 

And there's the problem with just leaving it as implied: unless you make sure that the implications can only point in one particular direction, and you make sure not to have anything that can unintentionally imply anything else, there will be ambiguity. 

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15 hours ago, zuibangde said:

What is with this gatekeeping attitude?

So people that are born after the games were released aren’t allowed to get into FE? How about people that can’t read Japanese or English? Echoes was the first FE game to get translated into Chinese so they didn’t have access to official translations of previous games, are they not allowed to get what they want in future FE games? Or people that didn’t have the systems needed to play FE games when they were young but can finally afford their own Switch, should we ignore them too? 

 

If I really am having that kind of attitude then it's not my intention to across as such. But if that's how people want interpret what I'm saying then so be it, I'm done trying to clarifying my posts when it comes to the internet. 

 

The point I'm trying to make here is that even ignoring the emulators there were enough times that people could have bought the games back in the day. Plenty of people had a GBA, a DS, & a Wii at some point in their lives but for some reason it never really got the recognition it should've gotten before the 3DS tainted it's good name. Then Echoes came along it went back it's proud roots. So what's stopping people from playing Echoes?

 

I'm not going to lie, I think it's incredibly stupid that none of the Kaga & GBA era haven't been orted to the 3DS  or the Switch, but apparently it's a great idea to ported over the Wii U?

 

If IS decides by having a bunch of burly men with epic beards for their future games then I'm up for it, but pandering to a bunch of detractors is even more shallow then focusing on the fanbase.

 

17 hours ago, Rose482 said:

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel about it, even though everyone being bi is unrealistic, it won't be something that would stop me from sleeping at night if they made it happened though.

 

Like I would have understood if they only made like few characters gay or bi if the game didn't have S supports (like in FE15) but if it's a game where anyone can marry almost anyone, it would suck for someone to get so limited options. 

And we're not going to get more gay options. At best it'll increase to 6, but I wouldn't even be surprise if we don't even get any LGBT characters at all. Even if we do, chances are they're going to be an archer because IS loves their tropes

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5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

The thing about Ike is that, given what's there, you could say there's no indication towards any particular orientation, or multiple or even contradictory indicators; a lot of it comes down to interpretation given what's there. Part of that is thanks to localization differences, while other parts of it are simply due to how Ike is written as a character. 

Because the version of Path of Radiance I (and many) played was the NA localization, which heavily implied Ike and Elincia having romantic feelings for each other while clearly defining Ike and Soren's relationship as that of two close friends; similarly to Sherlock Holmes and Watson (the book versions) and many other examples, I and many were left with that interpretation about Ike, and that interpretation is not inherently less valid than anyone else's. Even if IS were to say, "The intent was always Ike and Soren", that would be one interpretation no more or less valid than anyone else's thanks to The Death of the Author

To clarify, if someone interpreted it as Ike and Soren, I would not inherently disagree with anyone, nor would I disagree with anyone who thought Ike was Ace after playing PoR and RD based on what was written. I would only disagree if someone presented evidence that wasn't actually in the game, or was presented out-of-context. 

And there's the problem with just leaving it as implied: unless you make sure that the implications can only point in one particular direction, and you make sure not to have anything that can unintentionally imply anything else, there will be ambiguity. 

That's pretty much what I meant, yes. I mentioned Ike because he's a good example of too much subtlety leading to ambiguity, not to start this debate about him again.

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6 hours ago, Kori said:

That's pretty much what I meant, yes. I mentioned Ike because he's a good example of too much subtlety leading to ambiguity.

Oh; that was your point. Sorry that I misunderstood. Though he's less an example of too much subtlety leading to ambiguity, and more an example of different writers having different interpretations (which is the reason I brought up the NA localization). 

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For the topic of supports in general, I will be fine with marriage as long as any Teacher/Student is after the school portion or in the ending. I think they should make the supports more interesting. Characters should have more than one or two gimmicks to talk about. 

I'm not LGBTQ+ but I think the way Fates handled that was terrible (Niles and Soleil... Dear God, what a mess). People aren't stereotypes! Everyone has different tastes. I'd like a variety of characters with different sexualities and I want them to be well-written (fingers crossed, but still unsure if this is a pipe dream right now...) and not just a trope! Diversity in general is needed and I do like that 3H has Claude. I want more representation but only if it's good. Perpetuating negative stereotypes about people is not okay and if they're going to do that... Maybe no representation is better than being a box to be checked off without thought...

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13 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

The thing about Ike is that, given what's there, you could say there's no indication towards any particular orientation, or multiple or even contradictory indicators; a lot of it comes down to interpretation given what's there. Part of that is thanks to localization differences, while other parts of it are simply due to how Ike is written as a character. 

Because the version of Path of Radiance I (and many) played was the NA localization, which heavily implied Ike and Elincia having romantic feelings for each other while clearly defining Ike and Soren's relationship as that of two close friends; similarly to Sherlock Holmes and Watson (the book versions) and many other examples, I and many were left with that interpretation about Ike, and that interpretation is not inherently less valid than anyone else's. Even if IS were to say, "The intent was always Ike and Soren", that would be one interpretation no more or less valid than anyone else's thanks to The Death of the Author

To clarify, if someone interpreted it as Ike and Soren, I would not inherently disagree with anyone, nor would I disagree with anyone who thought Ike was Ace after playing PoR and RD based on what was written. I would only disagree if someone presented evidence that wasn't actually in the game, or was presented out-of-context. 

And there's the problem with just leaving it as implied: unless you make sure that the implications can only point in one particular direction, and you make sure not to have anything that can unintentionally imply anything else, there will be ambiguity.

Thats not how Death of the Author really works tbh especially when it comes to things that creators couldn't be explicit since they might weren't allowed or they could experience huge backlash..

In the end u can interpret any work of art however u like but this doesnt change the fact that some interpretations are more valid or at least have better arguments to back them up than others ....

 

Anyway from what i have seen form the japanese texts Ike is gay like come one "his heart and shoren become one"... plzzzz but if u want to not see it u are free to do so....

Edited by Pegasus Knight

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14 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

That's not how Death of the Author really works tbh especially when it comes to things that creators couldn't be explicit since they might weren't allowed or they could experience huge backlash.

Actually, it still applies, as one shouldn't judge a story or its characters based on what could have been. I'll give you three examples that illustrate my point:

  1. Shakespeare's Henry VIII was censored by the Lord Chamberlain because Henry VIII was Elizabeth I's dad. While it may be good to bear in mind that the play was censored, it ultimately has little bearing on interpreting the play, as the censored version was the version that the audience got. Even if we had a copy of the original version, interpreting the version that was actually played in 16th Century England based on the original would be judging based on what could've been; which is actually what you're not supposed to do when interpreting a written work.
  2.  Aldous Huxley, when discussing his book: Brave New World, quite famously said that he wished he could go back and completely rewrite the last the last chapter. (I don't really understand why he couldn't; J.R.R. Tolkien, after finishing The Lord of the Rings, went back and completely rewrote the Riddles in the Dark chapter of The Hobbit) Since he never actually did rewrite the last chapter, his desire to rewrite it has no bearing on interpretation of the book. I myself would never bring it up when discussing how I interpret the story or any of the characters; I usually only bring it up when discussing how badly written the book is (very badly written). 
  3.  Final Fantasy XV was originally going to be Final Fantasy Versus XIII, but it was rebranded and its story was heavily altered. The story of Versus XIII has no bearing on interpreting the story of XV or any of the characters in it. To do so would be judging based on what could've been. I myself would have much preferred to have Versus XIII than XV, as XV was a complete mess, but Versus XIII has no bearing on how I interpret XV. 
40 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

In the end you can interpret any work of art however you like but this doesn't change the fact that some interpretations are more valid or at least have better arguments to back them up than others…

You would be correct about that, and I was actually going to bring that up in my original post, but I felt that my post was getting long, it was unnecessary to bring it up, and I already sort-of mentioned it when I said that I would disagree with someone who tried to justify their interpretation with things that weren't in the story or were taken out of context by the person with the interpretation, so I deleted that part of my post before submitting it. 

For an example, a few months back I had an interesting debate with someone who's interpretation of Rudolph from Echoes stemmed from things he had cherrypicked and taken out of context, so I disagreed with him by pointing out that he had cherrypicked and taken points out of context.

 

54 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

Anyway from what i have seen form the japanese texts Ike is gay like come one "his heart and shoren beacome one"... plzzzz but if u want to not see it u are free to do so....

Thanks for making a strawman out me and completely misrepresenting my argument (obvious sarcasm). Also, I'm starting to get tired of correcting your spelling; are you typing this on your phone?

My argument was never, "Ike is not gay". My argument in my post earlier was that, due to the nature of how Ike is written and due to differences between localizations, those three different interpretations I mentioned are almost equally valid. Because of that, Ike really isn't an example of the point that Kori made:

Quote

The problem with subtle is that people who forget LGBT characters are a possibility will not realize it, and people who don't want their faves to be LGBT will refuse to see it, clinging to the subtlety and lack of outright confirmation, which basically negates the "representation" part of having these characters. Yes, we'll be happy about their inclusion while playing the game on our own, but we'll be called delusional for it in almost every fandom space.

She followed this with "see: any discussion about Ike". She has a good point about the subtlety bringing about ambiguity and going over people's heads, and I agreed with her about her point, but I disagreed with her about Ike being an example, due to the differences between locations presenting different pieces of evidence, etc. 

 

Plus, I think it's funny (and disingenuous) that your evidence you presented was a supposed (I say supposed because you left no proof that it is) quote from the Japanese version, when I explicitly said: 

Quote

Because the version of Path of Radiance I (and many) played was the NA localization, which heavily implied Ike and Elincia having romantic feelings for each other while clearly defining Ike and Soren's relationship as that of two close friends; similarly to Sherlock Holmes and Watson (the book versions) and many other examples, I and many were left with that interpretation about Ike, and that interpretation is not inherently less valid than anyone else's.

I was explicitly talking about the NA localization of Path of Path of Radiance. If you want to refute the argument that I made there, present evidence from the NA localization or try (and fail) to argue that the NA localization somehow doesn't count.

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20 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Actually, it still applies, as one shouldn't judge a story or its characters based on what could have been. I'll give you three examples that illustrate my point:

  1. Shakespeare's Henry VIII was censored by the Lord Chamberlain because Henry VIII was Elizabeth I's dad. While it may be good to bear in mind that the play was censored, it ultimately has little bearing on interpreting the play, as the censored version was the version that the audience got. Even if we had a copy of the original version, interpreting the version that was actually played in 16th Century England based on the original would be judging based on what could've been; which is actually what you're not supposed to do when interpreting a written work.
  2.  Aldous Huxley, when discussing his book: Brave New World, quite famously said that he wished he could go back and completely rewrite the last the last chapter. (I don't really understand why he couldn't; J.R.R. Tolkien, after finishing The Lord of the Rings, went back and completely rewrote the Riddles in the Dark chapter of The Hobbit) Since he never actually did rewrite the last chapter, his desire to rewrite it has no bearing on interpretation of the book. I myself would never bring it up when discussing how I interpret the story or any of the characters; I usually only bring it up when discussing how badly written the book is (very badly written). 
  3.  Final Fantasy XV was originally going to be Final Fantasy Versus XIII, but it was rebranded and its story was heavily altered. The story of Versus XIII has no bearing on interpreting the story of XV or any of the characters in it. To do so would be judging based on what could've been. I myself would have much preferred to have Versus XIII than XV, as XV was a complete mess, but Versus XIII has no bearing on how I interpret XV. 

You would be correct about that, and I was actually going to bring that up in my original post, but I felt that my post was getting long, it was unnecessary to bring it up, and I already sort-of mentioned it when I said that I would disagree with someone who tried to justify their interpretation with things that weren't in the story or were taken out of context by the person with the interpretation, so I deleted that part of my post before submitting it. 

For an example, a few months back I had an interesting debate with someone who's interpretation of Rudolph from Echoes stemmed from things he had cherrypicked and taken out of context, so I disagreed with him by pointing out that he had cherrypicked and taken points out of context.

 

Thanks for making a strawman out me and completely misrepresenting my argument (obvious sarcasm). Also, I'm starting to get tired of correcting your spelling; are you typing this on your phone?

My argument was never, "Ike is not gay". My argument in my post earlier was that, due to the nature of how Ike is written and due to differences between localizations, those three different interpretations I mentioned are almost equally valid. Because of that, Ike really isn't an example of the point that Kori made:

She followed this with "see: any discussion about Ike". She has a good point about the subtlety bringing about ambiguity and going over people's heads, and I agreed with her about her point, but I disagreed with her about Ike being an example, due to the differences between locations presenting different pieces of evidence, etc. 

 

Plus, I think it's funny (and disingenuous) that your evidence you presented was a supposed (I say supposed because you left no proof that it is) quote from the Japanese version, when I explicitly said: 

I was explicitly talking about the NA localization of Path of Path of Radiance. If you want to refute the argument that I made there, present evidence from the NA localization or try (and fail) to argue that the NA localization somehow doesn't count.

 

All these 3 examples are "what could have been" if they were written differently BUT in this case we arent discussing something like this.. we are talking about an intentional or not ambiguity....  in which in an interview of some sort the creators make a comment about the relationship pretty much conforming that it was  a romantic one.... And tbh when it comes to Ike the evidence of him being gay is pretty strong and the only evidence towards his straightness is Heteronormativity... and watching all the heteros going crazy any time this issue comes up its no wonder the creators didn't make it explicit... (i am not referring to you)

sorry for my typing mistakes

I actually find Ike's example perfect for the discussion, cause it truly highlights the problem. When gay characters aren't explicit and only vaguely suggested we have issues like these where the str8's call us delusional and don't want to accept the ambiguity or even the possibility... ( again not talking about you but if u visit a forum or YT video discussing Ike's sexuality u will see the negative responses)

 

Of course NA doesn't count.... That's like saying that sailor uranus and Neptune wasnt gay because the American Dub censored their relationship and made them cousins.... its always the original that counts... even if IS doesnt make a gay character in 3H and the NA branch change it i wont accept that character as truly gay and pretty much no one will...

Edited by Pegasus Knight

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19 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

 

All these 3 examples are "what could have been" if they were written differently BUT in this case we arent discussing something like this.. we are talking about an intentional or not ambiguity...

You said, "That's not how death of the author works […] when it comes to things that creators couldn't be explicit since they might weren't allowed or they could experience huge backlash..." and my very first example was one where the story literally got censored. 

22 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

Of course NA doesn't count.... That's like saying that sailor uranus and Neptune wasnt gay because the American Dub censored their relationship and made them cousins.... its always the original that counts... 

I don't know anything about that example you're giving. But, if that's the case that the dub did that, then anyone who watches the dub will say that they are cousins, and they would have every right to say that because it was the version that was presented to them. It does count. 

If it were always the original that counts, then how come the version of The Hobbit that everyone reads and considers canon is the rewrite, and not the original? Changes made in localizations and rewrites have to be considered. It doesn't inherently make the original invalid; it makes them different versions of the story. 

28 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

If IS doesn't make a gay character in 3H and the NA branch change it i wont accept that character as truly gay and pretty much no one will...

If IS made a character that was then made gay in the NA localization, I'd consider that character gay; as would pretty much everyone that buys the North American localization, because that's the version that they bought and played. That's the nature of localizations. 

34 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

and the only evidence towards his straightness is Heteronormativity... 

Except for, well, Priam. But then again; Marth is considered Anri's descendant despite being his great-great-grand nephew. 

36 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

I actually find Ike's example perfect for the discussion, cause it truly highlights the problem. When gay characters aren't explicit and only vaguely suggested we have issues like these where the str8's call us delusional and don't want to accept the ambiguity or even the possibility... ( again not talking about you but if u visit a forum or YT video discussing Ike's sexuality u will see the negative responses)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure most of that is due to the immense "shipping war", and believe me, I've seen plenty of Ike and Soren shippers do that kind of stuff as well to people that have argued in favour of the Ike and Elincia interpretation and the Ike being ace interpretation. Don't get me wrong; it is horrible to see stuff like that happen instead of reasonable debate and discussion. 

41 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

sorry for my typing mistakes

No problem. Thanks. 

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Here's a question for everyone: Who, out of the revealed playable cast, would you S-Support with, if any?

Right now, I would go with Sylvain, Ashe or Dimitri. 

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18 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

You said, "That's not how death of the author works […] when it comes to things that creators couldn't be explicit since they might weren't allowed or they could experience huge backlash..." and my very first example was one where the story literally got censored. 

I don't know anything about that example you're giving. But, if that's the case that the dub did that, then anyone who watches the dub will say that they are cousins, and they would have every right to say that because it was the version that was presented to them. It does count. 

If it were always the original that counts, then how come the version of The Hobbit that everyone reads and considers canon is the rewrite, and not the original? Changes made in localizations and rewrites have to be considered. It doesn't inherently make the original invalid; it makes them different versions of the story. 

If IS made a character that was then made gay in the NA localization, I'd consider that character gay; as would pretty much everyone that buys the North American localization, because that's the version that they bought and played. That's the nature of localizations. 

Except for, well, Priam. But then again; Marth is considered Anri's descendant despite being his great-great-grand nephew. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure most of that is due to the immense "shipping war", and believe me, I've seen plenty of Ike and Soren shippers do that kind of stuff as well to people that have argued in favour of the Ike and Elincia interpretation and the Ike being ace interpretation. Don't get me wrong; it is horrible to see stuff like that happen instead of reasonable debate and discussion. 

No problem. Thanks. 

i am not familiar with the first example that's why i didn't dive into it... As for the death of Author i disagree because people and especially YTbers have run with it the same way they did with the term plot hole... the Death of the Author is not as broad of a term as it might seems... and of course as everything is depends on the particular work we are discussing....

They might had this idea based on what they saw BUT that's why research exists.... especially in today's word with the internet there is no excuse.... I am sorry but this one is something i wont even agree to disagree with you.. i am firmly supporter of the original's creators story... sure revisions can exist and can be welcomed but if we dive into discussions like this its always the original that provides the biggest evidence.... i wont allow America's homophobia to take away some great gay representation... sorry no...

Priam could be Misty's son tho...

No, i actually saw these comments in threads and YT videos discussing Ike's sexuality... i wasnt aware of this debate before yesterday as i haven't played the games....

Anyway to end this, i do agree with you that its ambiguous if he is or he isnt... and since we hardy get any explicit representation for us gays things were always like that (reading among the lines) and that's why i do think he is... anyone can interpret it tho however he wants, i just find it funny how strong the straights deny this fact as if a gay lord existing would harm their franchise... Again not referring to you it was great discussing with you...

 

Edited by Pegasus Knight

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17 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Here's a question for everyone: Who, out of the revealed playable cast, would you S-Support with, if any?

Right now, I would go with Sylvain, Ashe or Dimitri. 

Maybe Dimitri but tbh the cast has been pretty disappointing to me so far....

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51 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

Priam could be Mist's son though...

That's literally what I implied with the reference to Marth being the great-nephew of Anri. It was meant as a joke. 

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1 hour ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Here's a question for everyone: Who, out of the revealed playable cast, would you S-Support with, if any?

Right now, I would go with Sylvain, Ashe or Dimitri. 

On the female side: Edelgard, Petra, Blonde Lion, and probably at least one of the white-haired Golden Deer (need more info than the backs of their heads).

Male side: Claude, Sylvain, White-haired Lion, Blue-haired Lion.

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1 hour ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Here's a question for everyone: Who, out of the revealed playable cast, would you S-Support with, if any?

Right now, I would go with Sylvain, Ashe or Dimitri. 

Maybe Dmitri, maybe Ashe, maybe the purple haired bangs boy, or blue-haired sword wielder.  I'm not sure really.

Unrelated, can I ask why so many people are referencing Claude when it comes to LGBT representation?  We have almost no information about him, and it feels like a whole lotta stereotypes.

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2 hours ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Here's a question for everyone: Who, out of the revealed playable cast, would you S-Support with, if any?

Right now, I would go with Sylvain, Ashe or Dimitri. 

I'd probably go with Sylvain, Dimitri, Claude, Edelgard, Petra, Caspar, and maybe the blonde from the Blue Lions. This is based solely on the portraits right now; it might change once we get some actual character info other than physical. 

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