FE4 Fan Special Roundtable/Interview Translation

[Interdimensional Observer]

17 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You know, considering Cigyun was able to leave not only the forest but also from Verdane completely, for almost ten years even... yeah, I have to think maybe the forest guys are the more incompetent ones. Then again, I'd question why allow the line to continue at all. They had a few generations to go "You know, just in case, avoid having children and let the bloodline die. Adopt if you really want to raise a child" on Maira's descendants. Then again, perhaps they thought that was too much, and thought they could just control the bloodline from expanding.

 

If everyone always did the most logical, selfless and utilitarian thing, would we have plots? You need something to go wrong. Some to be evil, something beyond the control of humanity, someone to act irrationally. Gharnef, Validar, Manfroy needs to be evil, Ciygun selfish, Zephiel and Sephiran misanthropes, Ashera stubborn, Lyon foolish, Nergal, Anankos, and Hardin corrupted. Shall I go on?

I'll just imagine the Crusaders were really sickeningly nice people like every FE lord is supposed to be, and were merciful since Maira was sympathetic to opposing Loptyr.

My bigger question is how did the Book of Loptyr fall into the Cult's hands? Heim should've melted Galle the whatever number and then been able to grab the tome and properly destroy it. If it isn't destroyable, then why didn't they put 2000 layers of magic seals on it to prevent access? Yet, the Cult just has it.

 

27 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Anyway, on the topic of Sigurd's actions and Grannvale's opinion on them... let's be fair here. Grannvale did the same thing to Isaach what Sigurd did to Verdane and Agustria.

Given the Grannvale Empire occupies Agustria offscreen after Gen 1, it is fair to say Manfroy wanted this. And didn't he have manipulators working on Chagall? Let me see...

Manfroy:
“Well, Grandbell still honours the Anti-War Pact with Agustria. Their entire military is still in Isaac. If we strike now we cannot lose!”

Shagaal:
“Hmm… If we can just overthrow Grandbell, Agustria will become the new world leader. And I’ll be emperor of the world!”

Manfroy:
“Hmhm… Yes, consider that a possibility.”

Manfroy wanted war between Grannvale and Agustria. But the possibility he was entertaining wasn't obviously Chagall as emperor of the world, there is only one Emperor and one Empire he wants- Loptyr's Empire.

Deidre and Arvis gave the Loptyr, but an Empire is not single kingdom, an empire is many kingdoms, many territories, as many as possible. I would assume the old Loptyr Empire the Crusaders obliterated covered all of Jugdral barring maybe Verdane (which Sig pacifies for the time being by eradicating its army and royalty- you can't ransack very effectively without leadership). 

Had Sigurd not invaded or failed, Manfroy sooner or later would have invented an excuse for war between the two countries. Chagall is his pawn, Grannvale is his pawn, and he will make them do as he wants to his deity's benefit.

I'm a bit surprised he hasn't conquered South Thracia, but either Travant alone is above manipulation, or he doesn't think the barren mountains are worth having. Empires tend to like as much productive land and as minimal unproductive ulcerous territory as possible. A vassal/tributary state would make do then- less gain, but significantly less cost in this case probably.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're referring to this.

 

No, I'm not. I literally SHOWED you, but just as you have proven, you ignored it.

Quote

Upon gaining control of the Verdane Kingdom, Sigurd received orders from Barhara to preside over Evans Castle along the border.
He soon thereafter took Diadora to be his wife.

Grandbell’s subjugation of Verdane caused quite a stir in neighbouring Agustria.
The lords of Agustria expressed strong anti-Grandbell sentiment.

The great King Imuka, who prized peace more than anything, was killed by an assassin.
King Imuka was succeeded by his eldest son, Prince Shagaal.
Grandbell’s military was still far away to the east in Isaac.

And none too soon did the new king command the lords of Agustria to invade Verdane.
Under orders to hold Evans Castle, Sigurd once again found himself in the midst of conflict.

Hold Evans Castle. Hold. Defense. Not attack.

Oh, but thank you for bringing this out:

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Although he had only been ordered to defend Evans, he decided to launch an invasion into Verdane.

That right there. Sigurd was ordered to defend Evans, but Sigurd instead decided to attack. That is explicitly shows that Sigurd launched an invasion without permission. An invasion that resulted in Augustria growing more hostile that resulted in more problems that Sigurd caused.

So thanks. You proved my point and evidence right there.

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So why did no one question the mark on Julius's forehead then? Yeah, sure they might not recognize it, but shouldn't people have been highly dubious about an unknown mark on the prince nonetheless instead of a mark of something they know really well. And as you point out, if the mark of loptyr is unknown then Sigurd would be likely to just assume that mark on her head is that very thing.

1

... I want you to repeat what you wrote and tell me when it starts sounding bad. 

... Done? 

No? 

Then I'll spell it out. 

Julius has Loptous Brand.

Deirdre has Naga Brand. 

Sigurd should, by all means, recognize Naga's brand. 

Naga = Most recognizable Brand because it is the Brand of Heim, of Naga, the proof of the Royal Family.

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Heim could have had an emblem of his own from before defeating loptyr that is the emblem of the royal family. There's no reason the holy mark need be famous or publicly known. I don't know if it is, maybe. The game never shows us what the mark looks like even. Maybe if we get a 3D remake we'll get to see what these marks look like, but consider how Alm and Celica's mark is just a cross, they could be incredibly basic. Regardless all this would show is that Sigurd is not book learned (or hell, we don't know what they got up to in bed, maybe Deirdre literally never took the circlet off) which is not the same as the supposed faults of naivety or rashness. What is certain is that Sigurd, for one reason or another, didn't recognize that Deirdre was Kurth's daughter. So violating his direct orders to handle Agustria to bring her to court would be an extremely out of character thing for him to do.

3

 Wow, gotta love how much PURE conjecture you have right here. Are you forgetting how many politics work here in JUgdral? They are structured around the Crusaders and the Holy Markings. Hell, Augustria is meant to be the direct descendants of Hezel, but Nodian family is the one with the Brand, as Kaga explained why that happened. The entire structure of their society is that the Crusader lineage and ultimately the Holy Markings are held in high regard. 

And wow, how many more excuses are you trying to make for Sigurd to try and deflect that this is no doubt proof that Sigurd is incompetent? Kaga literally said that had Sigurd been more competent, this tragedy would have been averted.

I need not even continue this.

I proved my point. 

*drops microphone*

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

If everyone always did the most logical, selfless and utilitarian thing, would we have plots? You need something to go wrong. Some to be evil, something beyond the control of humanity, someone to act irrationally. Gharnef, Validar, Manfroy needs to be evil, Ciygun selfish, Zephiel and Sephiran misanthropes, Ashera stubborn, Lyon foolish, Nergal, Anankos, and Hardin corrupted. Shall I go on?

I'll just imagine the Crusaders were really sickeningly nice people like every FE lord is supposed to be, and were merciful since Maira was sympathetic to opposing Loptyr.

My bigger question is how did the Book of Loptyr fall into the Cult's hands? Heim should've melted Galle the whatever number and then been able to grab the tome and properly destroy it. If it isn't destroyable, then why didn't they put 2000 layers of magic seals on it to prevent access? Yet, the Cult just has it.

 

Given the Grannvale Empire occupies Agustria offscreen after Gen 1, it is fair to say Manfroy wanted this. And didn't he have manipulators working on Chagall? Let me see...

Manfroy:
“Well, Grandbell still honours the Anti-War Pact with Agustria. Their entire military is still in Isaac. If we strike now we cannot lose!”

Shagaal:
“Hmm… If we can just overthrow Grandbell, Agustria will become the new world leader. And I’ll be emperor of the world!”

Manfroy:
“Hmhm… Yes, consider that a possibility.”

Manfroy wanted war between Grannvale and Agustria. But the possibility he was entertaining wasn't obviously Chagall as emperor of the world, there is only one Emperor and one Empire he wants- Loptyr's Empire.

Deidre and Arvis gave the Loptyr, but an Empire is not single kingdom, an empire is many kingdoms, many territories, as many as possible. I would assume the old Loptyr Empire the Crusaders obliterated covered all of Jugdral barring maybe Verdane (which Sig pacifies for the time being by eradicating its army and royalty- you can't ransack very effectively without leadership). 

Had Sigurd not invaded or failed, Manfroy sooner or later would have invented an excuse for war between the two countries. Chagall is his pawn, Grannvale is his pawn, and he will make them do as he wants to his deity's benefit.

I'm a bit surprised he hasn't conquered South Thracia, but either Travant alone is above manipulation, or he doesn't think the barren mountains are worth having. Empires tend to like as much productive land and as minimal unproductive ulcerous territory as possible. A vassal/tributary state would make do then- less gain, but significantly less cost in this case probably.

I question how the Book of Loptyr managed to survive the Crusaders too. It just pops up in the story in the hands of Manfroy. Only reasonable conclusion I can come to is that it wasn't well known as the source of his power and was taken from his corpse by a lopt loyalist.

Regarding Thracia, they were a staunch ally of the Empire, nominally, and there is a lopt bishop in there so they do have their claws in it, even if not as completely as the other lands.

[Tetragrammaton]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Worse than that, why did Jamka go with Sigurd when his country had just been torn apart and he stands as the only royal left alive? Contrivances for gameplay at its finest.

Is it really that uncommon in history?

He's the only royal left of a recently defeated country, his country is now under ruled by Grandbell officers, he does not have many option, either play along with the winner invader, to get promoted and favour from the new ruler, or either stay behind and plan a new uprising, and get killed sooner or later.

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Only reasonable conclusion I can come to is that it wasn't well known as the source of his power and was taken from his corpse by a lopt loyalist.

Even that excuse sounds weird, since Forseti and Book of Naga are Loptyr-like tomes, albeit not so evil. Naga in all her wisdom should be able to tell Heim exactly the nature of Loptyr's power and existence in Jugdral.

The best excuse I can think of is that it was securely stored away to an extent, but Manfroy or someone else had it found its location and stole it some time ago, and the theft, to avoid causing mass panic, was kept highly confidential. If Manfroy didn't conceal the theft from everyone from the start that is. And I'd consider the tome indestructible in this case.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, I'm not. I literally SHOWED you, but just as you have proven, you ignored it.

You need to take a look at that quote again. UPON SUBDUING VERDANE Sigurd was ordered to hold Evans. That is the Chapter 2 opening Narration, not the Chapter 1 opening narration. He was told to hold Evans after conquering Verdane. I've asked you to show me evidence that the invasion of Verdane was not sanctioned. And before you try to shift the goal post and claim you were talking about Agustria all along, I have this quote

Sigurd:
“I usually try to keep our troops off foreign soil, but this time it’s unavoidable. I’ve already received King Azmur’s approval to engage the enemy. His Majesty is aware of King Imuka’s assassination by Shagaal’s hand, as well as Shagaal’s plans to invade Grandbell. His Majesty has also stressed the importance of Eltshan’s rescue for future peace negotiations. Don’t worry, Lachesis. I promise we’ll get Eltshan out.”

Hold Evans Castle. Hold. Defense. Not attack.

Oh, but thank you for bringing this out:

That right there. Sigurd was ordered to defend Evans, but Sigurd instead decided to attack. That is explicitly shows that Sigurd launched an invasion without permission. An invasion that resulted in Augustria growing more hostile that resulted in more problems that Sigurd caused.

So thanks. You proved my point and evidence right there.

Okay well now it's clear that you're not actually reading any of my properly posts. That's a line I made up, it's not in the game. I said that's what you NEED the game to say. It's not what the game actually says. Why do you think I quoted the same thing twice?

... I want you to repeat what you wrote and tell me when it starts sounding bad. 

... Done? 

No? 

Then I'll spell it out. 

Julius has Loptous Brand.

Deirdre has Naga Brand. 

Sigurd should, by all means, recognize Naga's brand. 

Naga = Most recognizable Brand because it is the Brand of Heim, of Naga, the proof of the Royal Family.

Your headcannon. Prove it's true. The mark of Naga could be an X for all we know. I'll give you some proof to back up your claim, some random soldier recognised the mark of Odo on Galzus. That's as far as the game goes to show us how recognizable any of the marks are. In any regard, Sigurd doesn't recognise it, that's a failing of his education, not his naivety.

 Wow, gotta love how much PURE conjecture you have right here. Are you forgetting how many politics work here in JUgdral? They are structured around the Crusaders and the Holy Markings. Hell, Augustria is meant to be the direct descendants of Hezel, but Nodian family is the one with the Brand, as Kaga explained why that happened. The entire structure of their society is that the Crusader lineage and ultimately the Holy Markings are held in high regard. 

And wow, how many more excuses are you trying to make for Sigurd to try and deflect that this is no doubt proof that Sigurd is incompetent? Kaga literally said that had Sigurd been more competent, this tragedy would have been averted.

Yes...that's what we've been arguing with. I disagree with Kaga's statement. That's how this whole thing started.

I need not even continue this.

I proved my point. 

You really haven't though. Even if you're right about every single one of your assertions, you haven't laid out any situation in which that would have averted tragedy for Sigurd.

*drops microphone*

Shame. I was having a lot of fun. And I think I'd really snookered you with that Evan's Defense quote coming from Chapter 2.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

Is it really that uncommon in history?

He's the only royal left of a recently defeated country, his country is now under ruled by Grandbell officers, he does not have many option, either play along with the winner invader, to get promoted and favour from the new ruler, or either stay behind and plan a new uprising, and get killed sooner or later.

Well yes, but that portrays Jamke as a sycophantic trying to get favor with Sigurd instead of having any interest in the cause. There's also no need for him to go personally when he would be much more vital as a puppet ruler reassuring and consolidating his people for Grannvale. 

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Even that excuse sounds weird, since Forseti and Book of Naga are Loptyr-like tomes, albeit not so evil. Naga in all her wisdom should be able to tell Heim exactly the nature of Loptyr's power and existence in Jugdral.

The best excuse I can think of is that it was securely stored away to an extent, but Manfroy or someone else had it found its location and stole it some time ago, and the theft, to avoid causing mass panic, was kept highly confidential. If Manfroy didn't conceal the theft from everyone from the start that is. And I'd consider the tome indestructible in this case.

I suppose we don't know that Manfroy had control of the book until the second Gen, after they had siezed control of Barhara. So maybe it was in a vault and he didn't even need to steal it and could simply taken it. It must be indestructible if that's true. Which I guess the Falchion seemingly is, so precedent.

[Acacia Sgt]

26 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

If everyone always did the most logical, selfless and utilitarian thing, would we have plots? You need something to go wrong. Some to be evil, something beyond the control of humanity, someone to act irrationally. Gharnef, Validar, Manfroy needs to be evil, Ciygun selfish, Zephiel and Sephiran misanthropes, Ashera stubborn, Lyon foolish, Nergal, Anankos, and Hardin corrupted. Shall I go on?

I'll just imagine the Crusaders were really sickeningly nice people like every FE lord is supposed to be, and were merciful since Maira was sympathetic to opposing Loptyr.

I'm aware. Although, I would think there are cases where a plot can go on without something wrong happening.

It happens. We also have Harmutt, who would do the same, by sparing Idounn.

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Even that excuse sounds weird, since Forseti and Book of Naga are Loptyr-like tomes, albeit not so evil. Naga in all her wisdom should be able to tell Heim exactly the nature of Loptyr's power and existence in Jugdral.

The best excuse I can think of is that it was securely stored away to an extent, but Manfroy or someone else had it found its location and stole it some time ago, and the theft, to avoid causing mass panic, was kept highly confidential. If Manfroy didn't conceal the theft from everyone from the start that is. And I'd consider the tome indestructible in this case.

To be fair, would Naga even know Loptry had an imprint of his will on the tome? Did they even knew the whole "imprint-on-the-tome" was something they could do? I don't think there's an indication that points to either way. It's not something that always happens. Like how it's stated with Forseti it happened for being very passionate about caring for Jugdral and its people, but no indication he did it on purpose since he couldn't return as ordered by Naga.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'm aware. Although, I would think there are cases where a plot can go on without something wrong happening.

In case it's been lost in all the chaos, that's exactly what I've been arguing about. There's nothing wrong with a plot where people make mistakes from character flaws, but I think in Sigurd's particular case, it's a story about a man who makes all the most sensible decisions yet still ends up suffering from tragedy.

[Tetragrammaton]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well yes, but that portrays Jamke as a sycophantic trying to get favor with Sigurd instead of having any interest in the cause. There's also no need for him to go personally when he would be much more vital as a puppet ruler reassuring and consolidating his people for Grannvale.

It would be simple if he is just a girl or a sick man, but he is a fighter, the Grandbell does not want a risk if he stays in the country, it would be better if they keep him in check with Sigurd.

[omegaxis1]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Your headcannon. Prove it's true. The mark of Naga could be an X for all we know. I'll give you some proof to back up your claim, some random soldier recognised the mark of Odo on Galzus. That's as far as the game goes to show us how recognizable any of the marks are.

2

That's already more than enough proof. The Holy Markings are something of sacred worship. If ordinary folks in Thracia can recognize the markings of Od, who founded Isaach, then the mark of Heim would also be easily recognized.

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You really haven't though. Even if you're right about every single one of your assertions, you haven't laid out any situation in which that would have averted tragedy for Sigurd.

Except I have. Sigurd married Deirdre shortly after conquering Verdane:

Quote

Upon gaining control of the Verdane Kingdom, Sigurd received orders from Barhara to preside over Evans Castle along the border.
He soon thereafter took Diadora to be his wife.

If he learned that she has the Brand of Naga, that would be conclusive proof that she was Kurth's daughter. Him marrying Deirdre already makes him part of the royal family, and Sigurd's son would be the heir to the throne by default. Sigurd would no doubt have tried to return to Balhalla to inform them of Kurth's daughter, which automatically would give him an audience with the king. 

The effort to pin blame on his house for trying to perform a coup on Granvalle or Kurth's assassination would hold no water as Sigurd is already at the highest position to gain favor, especially when this happened before Kurth's assassination even took place. 

Also, if Sigurd met with Filat and learned about the affair Kurth had, he would immediately realize that Arvis and Deirdre would be siblings. And knowing that a dark cult is after Deirdre, he'd have figured out how they plan on reviving Loptous. 

Sigurd had to be incredibly naive and incompetent to not have pieced all this information together. This is because if he figured it out, he'd have been able to make an effort to stop it. Kaga isn't wrong here. Sigurd really could have averted the tragedy if he had been more competent, but him being as reckless as he is, it made him not be able to think things clearly and ultimately made him unable to realize what was happening until it was too late.

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

It would be simple if he is just a girl or a sick man, but he is a fighter, the Grandbell does not want a risk if he stays in the country, it would be better if they keep him in check with Sigurd.

Yeah, that's true. A season with a pissed off Jamke reporting to Sigurd about how he'd been kicked out Verdane by Grannvale nobles for that very reason would have been good. Sigurd could say how he has no power to change it but still promise to help him return to it some day. Would have explained Jamke's reasoning for being there and would serve to foreshadow Grannvale's intentions.

23 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's already more than enough proof. The Holy Markings are something of sacred worship. If ordinary folks in Thracia can recognize the markings of Od, who founded Isaach, then the mark of Heim would also be easily recognized.

Except I have. Sigurd married Deirdre shortly after conquering Verdane:

If he learned that she has the Brand of Naga, that would be conclusive proof that she was Kurth's daughter. Him marrying Deirdre already makes him part of the royal family, and Sigurd's son would be the heir to the throne by default. Sigurd would no doubt have tried to return to Balhalla to inform them of Kurth's daughter, which automatically would give him an audience with the king. 

The effort to pin blame on his house for trying to perform a coup on Granvalle or Kurth's assassination would hold no water as Sigurd is already at the highest position to gain favor, especially when this happened before Kurth's assassination even took place. 

Also, if Sigurd met with Filat and learned about the affair Kurth had, he would immediately realize that Arvis and Deirdre would be siblings. And knowing that a dark cult is after Deirdre, he'd have figured out how they plan on reviving Loptous. 

Sigurd had to be incredibly naive and incompetent to not have pieced all this information together. This is because if he figured it out, he'd have been able to make an effort to stop it. Kaga isn't wrong here. Sigurd really could have averted the tragedy if he had been more competent, but him being as reckless as he is, it made him not be able to think things clearly and ultimately made him unable to realize what was happening until it was too late.

Okay then, I guess you admit that Sigurd invading Verdane was sanctioned (because really if I do say so myself I managed to annihilate any ground you have to stand on with that point), admit that leaving her in the Spirit Forest would have been needlessly risky compared to protecting her himself and, well I don't think you agree on the Deirdre leaving the castle thing, but I think we can at least agree to disagree on that.

You're right, if Sigurd had brought Deirdre to court and revealed she was the daughter of Kurth then he would have been in the same position Alvis was in at the end of the first generation. I wouldn't argue that.

Here's the thing though, Sigurd didn't realize she was the daughter of Kurth. He didn't even know Kurth had a child. Now, let's assume for a second (and it is an assumption, even with that Thracia reference I provided you), that the mark of Naga is so well known that a learned noble should be able to recognize. That's not an indication of Sigurd being naieve. It's evidence that he's not book smart. It wasn't an unwise choice of Sigurd's, he wasn't fooled into believing something that isn't true. It's saying that all these problems happened simply because Sigurd never studied more when he was fifteen. And it's a single example of it. All his actual choices in the game, the rescuing of Aedean, the invasion of Verdane, the defense of Nordion, the conquering of Agustria, the fleeing to Silesia, the recapturing of Grannvale, trusting Alvis, they were all still the correct decisions to make at that time based on the information Sigurd had on hand. If the mark of Naga is well known publicly and if Sigurd did recognize it yet he chose to do nothing about it, then it would have been an incompetence on his part. But instead, what it is is just another piece of knowledge Sigurd simply didn't have (because he didn't study hard enough in Lord School). Just like he didn't know Alvis intended to betray him.

Furthermore, it’s not even a narrative the actual game presents. We never even discover Deirdre has a marking or where it is until Chapter 5 (though you can check her status screen before that). The game never highlights it, and never highlights Sigurd’s knowledge or lack thereof of it. For that to be the story the game intended to display it would need a scene of Sigurd noticing the mark, saying something about it (either huh I don’t recognise it, or oh wow, you must be royalty) to actually be a plot point. It might happen that we’ll get a Genealogy remake someday, and they will want to make Sigurd a character more at fault for his own actions, and we could get a scene like that. But no such scene exists in the game currently exists. You literally can't play the game blind and conclude "Man this Sigurd guy is an idiot for not realizing his wife is Royalty," as the game unfolds because it's not information the player is made privy too (without the Easter Egg of the status screen of course, as that in no way tells us if Sigurd knows or not).

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[Tetragrammaton]

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's already more than enough proof. The Holy Markings are something of sacred worship. If ordinary folks in Thracia can recognize the markings of Od, who founded Isaach, then the mark of Heim would also be easily recognized.

Except I have. Sigurd married Deirdre shortly after conquering Verdane:

If he learned that she has the Brand of Naga, that would be conclusive proof that she was Kurth's daughter. Him marrying Deirdre already makes him part of the royal family, and Sigurd's son would be the heir to the throne by default. Sigurd would no doubt have tried to return to Balhalla to inform them of Kurth's daughter, which automatically would give him an audience with the king. 

The effort to pin blame on his house for trying to perform a coup on Granvalle or Kurth's assassination would hold no water as Sigurd is already at the highest position to gain favor, especially when this happened before Kurth's assassination even took place. 

Also, if Sigurd met with Filat and learned about the affair Kurth had, he would immediately realize that Arvis and Deirdre would be siblings. And knowing that a dark cult is after Deirdre, he'd have figured out how they plan on reviving Loptous. 

Sigurd had to be incredibly naive and incompetent to not have pieced all this information together. This is because if he figured it out, he'd have been able to make an effort to stop it. Kaga isn't wrong here. Sigurd really could have averted the tragedy if he had been more competent, but him being as reckless as he is, it made him not be able to think things clearly and ultimately made him unable to realize what was happening until it was too late.

Diadora only has the mark glow after she touches the Narga tome, before that, no one can be 100% sure she is a Heim descendant.

[Acacia Sgt]

I wonder, though.

If figuring out Dierdre's mark was the mark of Naga is meant to be an easy thing, then what does that makes of this:

Alvis:
“She had no recollections from the moment we found her near the castle grounds. Aside from her name she doesn’t remember a thing. I was simply looking after her out of sympathy, but then I fell deeply in love with her. With all due respect, I never in a million years would have suspected she was of royalty.”

Azmur:
“The day you brought her in to the Royal Palace to announce your wedding intentions, I tell you… I could have swore my eyes were playing tricks on me! I don’t know. Call it a family’s intuition, but somehow I knew. And sure enough under her circlet were the markings of Narga. Lord Alvis, you understand what this all means, don’t you? According to the Book of Narga only descendants of Heim, like myself, can give off that kind of vibration. And Narga’s power is the only one capable of standing up to the Dark Lord Loputousu.”

There's no indication of time between Arvis finding Dierdre, and then going to visit Azmur to announce the wedding. Even if it was "love at first sight", there'd still be some days time, no? If Dierdre was at Velthomer, under Arvis's care, that means lots of people saw her, no? Yet, it was only when they went to visit Azmur, he felt something, and only then they bothered to remove the circlet and finally see the mark?

What I mean here is... did Sigurd really fail to recognize the mark, or just never saw it? Did everybody at Velthomer also never saw it? Did that include Arvis?

It's quite telling that apparnetly no one knew until Azmur himself felt it, then they removed her circlet to see the mark.

Also, that bit of vibrations kinda lines up with the "suffocation" Azelle felt with Arvis's minor Loptyr blood, no? Kinda. It's clear the Naga blood gives off something that other Naga blood carriers can feel, at least.

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

Diadora only has the mark glow after she touches the Narga tome, before that, no one can be 100% sure she is a Heim descendant.

Where are you getting this from? Marks glowing sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't recall such a reference off the top of my head. We know people like Galzus and Mareeta have marks despite presumably never encountering Balmung.

16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I wonder, though.

If figuring out Dierdre's mark was the mark of Naga is meant to be an easy thing, then what does that makes of this:

Alvis:
“She had no recollections from the moment we found her near the castle grounds. Aside from her name she doesn’t remember a thing. I was simply looking after her out of sympathy, but then I fell deeply in love with her. With all due respect, I never in a million years would have suspected she was of royalty.”

Azmur:
“The day you brought her in to the Royal Palace to announce your wedding intentions, I tell you… I could have swore my eyes were playing tricks on me! I don’t know. Call it a family’s intuition, but somehow I knew. And sure enough under her circlet were the markings of Narga. Lord Alvis, you understand what this all means, don’t you? According to the Book of Narga only descendants of Heim, like myself, can give off that kind of vibration. And Narga’s power is the only one capable of standing up to the Dark Lord Loputousu.”

There's no indication of time between Arvis finding Dierdre, and then going to visit Azmur to announce the wedding. Even if it was "love at first sight", there'd still be some days time, no? If Dierdre was at Velthomer, under Arvis's care, that means lots of people saw her, no? Yet, it was only when they went to visit Azmur, he felt something, and only then they bothered to remove the circlet and finally see the mark?

What I mean here is... did Sigurd really fail to recognize the mark, or just never saw it? Did everybody at Velthomer also never saw it? Did that include Arvis?

It's quite telling that apparnetly no one knew until Azmur himself felt it, then they removed her circlet to see the mark.

Also, that bit of vibrations kinda lines up with the "suffocation" Azelle felt with Arvis's minor Loptyr blood, no? Kinda. It's clear the Naga blood gives off something that other Naga blood carriers can feel, at least.

A lot of nobles were also hanging around with Sigurd that would have been able to recognize it. A circlet is also a pretty small garment, so we're talking about a rather small mark to begin with (assuming the circlet covers it entirely, which we kind of have to assume if no one in Sigurd's army or Velthomer recognised it and it is a very well known symbol) that can probably easily be mistaken for a birth mark.

You also have to question why the criclet was even included as a plot point to begin with. Much later on it acts as a plot point to get the book of Naga (presumably Kurth gave it to Ciyun...wait what about the book of Naga. How did it get locked back up for Gen 2 if Kurth gave the key away? Did he not take it to Isaac? can it be locked up without the key? Is there a second key? I'm getting off topic here), but they did specifically highlight the fact that the mark was hidden and hard to spot..  They could have made it easy to spot and a part of Deirdre's character, but they choose to have it hidden away under the circlet at all times. This can only have been included as an explanation as to why Sigurd never noticed it.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Okay then, I guess you admit that Sigurd invading Verdane was sanctioned (because really if I do say so myself I managed to annihilate any ground you have to stand on with that point), admit that leaving her in the Spirit Forest would have been needlessly risky compared to protecting her himself and, well I don't think you agree on the Deirdre leaving the castle thing, but I think we can at least agree to disagree on that.

You're right, if Sigurd had brought Deirdre to court and revealed she was the daughter of Kurth then he would have been in the same position Alvis was in at the end of the first generation. I wouldn't argue that.

Here's the thing though, Sigurd didn't realize she was the daughter of Kurth. He didn't even know Kurth had a child. Now, let's assume for a second (and it is an assumption, even with that Thracia reference I provided you), that the mark of Naga is so well known that a learned noble should be able to recognize. That's not an indication of Sigurd being naieve. It's evidence that he's not book smart. It wasn't an unwise choice of Sigurd's, he wasn't fooled into believing something that isn't true. It's saying that all these problems happened simply because Sigurd never studied more when he was fifteen. And it's a single example of it. All his actual choices in the game, the rescuing of Aedean, the invasion of Verdane, the defense of Nordion, the conquering of Agustria, the fleeing to Silesia, the recapturing of Grannvale, trusting Alvis, they were all still the correct decisions to make at that time based on the information Sigurd had on hand. If the mark of Naga is well known publicly and if Sigurd did recognize it yet he chose to do nothing about it, then it would have been an incompetence on his part. But instead, what it is is just another piece of knowledge Sigurd simply didn't have (because he didn't study hard enough in Lord School). Just like he didn't know Alvis intended to betray him.

2

Actually, I feel no point in continuing that line of argument when I had made my point.

Sigurd not being knowledgable of the Crusader markings is ludicrous. He literally has a Crusader Marking himself. He KNOWS what they mean and what they indicate. This isn't a case of not being book smart. This is a case of someone not even knowing something that is worshipped and held in such high regard. Kaga explicitly stated that Sigurd is very naive, even compared to Seliph, and the tragedy would have been avoided if he had been more competent. Not knowing about Naga's crusader marking is something way too big to not know despite how Sigurd SHOULD know. He has the markings of a crusader himself, which his father must no doubt have informed him of. 

Not recognizing something he, by all means, should have is, by all means, a reveal of his naivete. Naivete is defined by lacking in experience, wisdom, or judgment. Wisdom includes knowledge. Lack of knowledge means lack of wisdom, with means Sigurd is very much naive. 

Also, the thing about Sigurd not knowing that it's Kurth's daughter, that would easily be rectified the moment he would have spoken to Filat. Filat did act as a messenger after all and told Sigurd about it. If he informed Filat about Deirdre have Naga's brand, that would make Filat tell the story of Kurth's affair. Just like that, problem solved. Also, because of how Brands are basically the proof of one's lineage, it must indicate that they are part of the royal family, so Sigurd would still have an obligation to bring her to the king, since she would be related to the king.

12 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

Diadora only has the mark glow after she touches the Narga tome, before that, no one can be 100% sure she is a Heim descendant.

No it doesn't. Where did you get that?

13 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I wonder, though.

If figuring out Dierdre's mark was the mark of Naga is meant to be an easy thing, then what does that makes of this:

Alvis:
“She had no recollections from the moment we found her near the castle grounds. Aside from her name she doesn’t remember a thing. I was simply looking after her out of sympathy, but then I fell deeply in love with her. With all due respect, I never in a million years would have suspected she was of royalty.”

Azmur:
“The day you brought her in to the Royal Palace to announce your wedding intentions, I tell you… I could have swore my eyes were playing tricks on me! I don’t know. Call it a family’s intuition, but somehow I knew. And sure enough under her circlet were the markings of Narga. Lord Alvis, you understand what this all means, don’t you? According to the Book of Narga only descendants of Heim, like myself, can give off that kind of vibration. And Narga’s power is the only one capable of standing up to the Dark Lord Loputousu.”

There's no indication of time between Arvis finding Dierdre, and then going to visit Azmur to announce the wedding. Even if it was "love at first sight", there'd still be some days time, no? If Dierdre was at Velthomer, under Arvis's care, that means lots of people saw her, no? Yet, it was only when they went to visit Azmur, he felt something, and only then they bothered to remove the circlet and finally see the mark?

What I mean here is... did Sigurd really fail to recognize the mark, or just never saw it? Did everybody at Velthomer also never saw it? Did that include Arvis?

It's quite telling that apparnetly no one knew until Azmur himself felt it, then they removed her circlet to see the mark.

Also, that bit of vibrations kinda lines up with the "suffocation" Azelle felt with Arvis's minor Loptyr blood, no? Kinda. It's clear the Naga blood gives off something that other Naga blood carriers can feel, at least.

It makes less sense for Sigurd to not have seen it. He spent the longest time with her. He literally had sex with her. I doubt he would have missed seeing it. Arvis was caring for her before the marriage, but how intimate their relationship had been is unable to be verified. But it may have happened after their marriage or such and introducing her to the king. I mean, if Arvis was being the type to have sex with Deirdre only after marriage. So if he introduced her before that happened, as it shows here, then that is when her lineage was revealed. 

Actually, shouldn't this actually be odd?

Doesn't Arvis know that Cigyun had an affair with Kurth? His father literally wrote the suicide note denouncing the two after all. 

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Where are you getting this from? Marks glowing sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't recall such a reference off the top of my head. We know people like Galzus and Mareeta have marks despite presumably never encountering Balmung.

I think its the weapon that glows, not the Brand.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, I feel no point in continuing that line of argument when I had made my point.

So do you still believe Sigurd invaded Verdane without permission based on a quote about what he was told to do after having finished conquering Verdane?

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, I feel no point in continuing that line of argument when I had made my point.

Sigurd not being knowledgable of the Crusader markings is ludicrous. He literally has a Crusader Marking himself. He KNOWS what they mean and what they indicate. This isn't a case of not being book smart. This is a case of someone not even knowing something that is worshipped and held in such high regard. Kaga explicitly stated that Sigurd is very naive, even compared to Seliph, and the tragedy would have been avoided if he had been more competent. Not knowing about Naga's crusader marking is something way too big to not know despite how Sigurd SHOULD know. He has the markings of a crusader himself, which his father must no doubt have informed him of. 

I never said Sigurd didn't know about the brands. Just that he didn't recognise the specific mark of Naga. There's like 12 of them.

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not recognizing something he, by all means, should have is, by all means, a reveal of his naivete. Naivete is defined by lacking in experience, wisdom, or judgment. Wisdom includes knowledge. Lack of knowledge means lack of wisdom, with means Sigurd is very much naive. 

A = B = C. Therefore A = C. That's not maths work, but it's not how words work. There is nuance between these things. Wisdom and Knowledge are not identical. Inexperience would have been the better word to focus on there.

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, the thing about Sigurd not knowing that it's Kurth's daughter, that would easily be rectified the moment he would have spoken to Filat. Filat did act as a messenger after all and told Sigurd about it. If he informed Filat about Deirdre have Naga's brand, that would make Filat tell the story of Kurth's affair. Just like that, problem solved. Also, because of how Brands are basically the proof of one's lineage, it must indicate that they are part of the royal family, so Sigurd would still have an obligation to bring her to the king, since she would be related to the king.

But Sigurd didn't know Deirdre is Kurth's daughter. You can claim he should have known what the brand looks like, but he didn't. Her being a decedent of Naga is information he doesn't possess, so he can't act on it. And, perhaps you missed it because I edited it afterwards, this is not information the game brings to our attention. There is no way for the player to play through Chapters 1-4 thinking Sigurd is incompetent for not recognizing Deirdre's true heritage because Deirdre's true heritage isn't revealed to the player (out of the status screen). Fundamentally that's not how writing works. A plot point actually has to be presented for it to have any effect. The game never highlights Deirdre's mark until chapter 5 and in fact goes to lengths to display how it's in fact hard for her mark to be noticed. For all we know Deirdre never took her circlet off even when they were in bed. For this criticism to work, you need to have the mark in full view to both the player and Sigurd.

Here's another situation with the same thing, saying characters should recognise something that they didn't, therefore it's a narrative failing on their part that means they deserve their tragedy. Ike has heard the Black Knight speak. Ike has heard Zelguis speak. Ike should have been able to recognize they share the same voice as that night was incredibly important to him. Ike should have murdered Zelguis in Begnion when he didn't have his blessed armour on. Only Ike didn't manage to recognise they share the same voice, no matter how much I claim he should have because due to the importance of that night. Likewise, Sigurd didn't recognise the mark on Deirdre, no matter how much you claim he should have.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

As I showed with the dialogue, Dierdre didn't touch the tome. Azmur simply felt something, then they checked if she had the mark.

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It makes less sense for Sigurd to not have seen it. He spent the longest time with her. He literally had sex with her. I doubt he would have missed seeing it. Arvis was caring for her before the marriage, but how intimate their relationship had been is unable to be verified. But it may have happened after their marriage or such and introducing her to the king. I mean, if Arvis was being the type to have sex with Deirdre only after marriage. So if he introduced her before that happened, as it shows here, then that is when her lineage was revealed. 

Actually, shouldn't this actually be odd?

Doesn't Arvis know that Cigyun had an affair with Kurth? His father literally wrote the suicide note denouncing the two after all. 

I think it boils down to how often Dierdre would take off her circlet. Thing is, if she did took it off at a point Sigurd could've seen the mark, then she could've also taken it off at Velthomer. If Granvale's medieval-esque society mirrors those of ours, there'd be people there to have seen it in such situations. At the very least, a physician would've checked her when first found, and likely asked her to take off the circlet to better examine her head. Specially since "hit on the head" is like standard-cliche for memory loss situations.

Certainly. Being Kurth's daughter would've sent warning signs to Arvis that maybe she's his half-sister, due to the whole affair thing. It probably depends if Kurth ever courted other women (unlikely, as Filat said he was a "straight arrow"), or... well, Arvis himself isn't above some naivety or making mistakes himself. He was already played by Manfroy. Or maybe being in love with Dierdre sent him into subconscious denial? Beats me...

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

As I showed with the dialogue, Dierdre didn't touch the tome. Azmur simply felt something, then they checked if she had the mark.

I think it boils down to how often Dierdre would take off her circlet. Thing is, if she did took it off at a point Sigurd could've seen the mark, then she could've also taken it off at Velthomer. If Granvale's medieval-esque society mirrors those of ours, there'd be people there to have seen it in such situations. At the very least, a physician would've checked her when first found, and likely asked her to take off the circlet to better examine her head. Specially since "hit on the head" is like standard-cliche for memory loss situations.

Certainly. Being Kurth's daughter would've sent warning signs to Arvis that maybe she's his half-sister, due to the whole affair thing. It probably depends if Kurth ever courted other women (unlikely, as Filat said he was a "straight arrow"), or... well, Arvis himself isn't above some naivety or making mistakes himself. He was already played by Manfroy. Or maybe being in love with Dierdre sent him into subconscious denial? Beats me...

Alvis, likely knows Kurth had an affair with his mother, but he doesn't know Deirdre is his mother's daughter. It's not farfecthed at all to assume a man would have more than one affair over the course of his life (doubly so if we know he had at least one, Kurth was straight as an arrow, so it was shocking to see he had one affair in the first place, if he can have one, why not another?). Kaga does say that Alvis discovered it eventually though by travelling to the Spirit Forest himself in secret (which by the by also means he was able to find it). More than that though he should have been able to recognise the obvious similarity between his mother and Deirdre if she looks anything like her official art. Mommy issues I guess.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[Slumber]

On 2/17/2019 at 12:31 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

 

• Sigurd is heavily flawed. Besides his love for Deirdre, he is very naive, even more than Seliph. If he were more competent, the tragedy [of Belhalla or Gen 1 as a whole?] would not have happened.

WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT THIS IN THE "WHICH LORD WOULD YOU LIKE AS A BODYGUARD" THREAD WHO WERE DIRECTLY ARGUING AGAINST THIS

WHERE ARE ALL OF YOU

GIVE ME YOUR CANDY AS REPARATIONS

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT THIS IN THE "WHICH LORD WOULD YOU LIKE AS A BODYGUARD" THREAD WHO WERE DIRECTLY ARGUING AGAINST THIS

WHERE ARE ALL OF YOU

GIVE ME YOUR CANDY AS REPARATIONS

Haha. Which side are you on? I think Sigurd would make a terrible bodyguard because he'd be betrayed and killed by someone due to something beyond his control.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Alvis, likely knows Kurth had an affair with his mother, but he doesn't know Deirdre is his mother's daughter. It's not farfecthed at all to assume a man would have more than one affair over the course of his life (doubly so if we know he had at least one, Kurth was straight as an arrow, so it was shocking to see he had one affair in the first place, if he can have one, why not another?). Kaga does say that Alvis discovered it eventually though by travelling to the Spirit Forest himself in secret (which by the by also means he was able to find it).

It would only be affair if Kurth had already someone else. Thing is, there's no indication he ever had a lover other than Cygun. The "straight arrow" comment comes right after Filat says Victor was a womanizer and had several, as if to make a comparison. And there's this:

Sigurd:
“I’m glad to hear His Highness made it through alright. My father sure worries about his safety. He fears the Royal Family’s blood would be lost forever if anything were to happen to him.”

Filat:
“Indeed. We’ve been trying to hasten his search for a bride as of late.”

Sigurd:
“Huh? Is there any special reason for that?”

Filat:
“Er… Well, only a select few at the Royal Court know this but… It seems His Highness is having problems letting go of a love from his past.”

Sigurd:
“Really? Any reason the two never married?”

Kurth didn't had a lover until Cygun, then afterwards he refused to have another. So Arvis would still had to have suspect something, yet he didn't.

[Slumber]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Haha. Which side are you on? I think Sigurd would make a terrible bodyguard because he'd be betrayed and killed by someone due to something beyond his control.

I was firmly on the "Sigurd would be the worst bodyguard because his idealism and naivete got all of his friends killed" side.

Everyone else was on the "There's no way that situation could have worked out differently, you're being too harsh on Sigurd!" side.

It turned into a long argument.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Slumber

[Tetragrammaton]

38 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No it doesn't. Where did you get that?

 

47 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Where are you getting this from? Marks glowing sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't recall such a reference off the top of my head. We know people like Galzus and Mareeta have marks despite presumably never encountering Balmung.

Well, maybe I mixed things up.

Anyway, when major descendants touch their holy weapon the first time they are glowing and they feel the power flow into them, as in both how the game portrays it or in the script we read.

You can test their bloodline by using the holy weapon, that is for sure.

Edited February 22, 2019 by hanhnn

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It would only be affair if Kurth had already someone else. Thing is, there's no indication he ever had a lover other than Cygun. The "straight arrow" comment comes right after Filat says Victor was a womanizer and had several, as if to make a comparison. And there's this:

Sigurd:
“I’m glad to hear His Highness made it through alright. My father sure worries about his safety. He fears the Royal Family’s blood would be lost forever if anything were to happen to him.”

Filat:
“Indeed. We’ve been trying to hasten his search for a bride as of late.”

Sigurd:
“Huh? Is there any special reason for that?”

Filat:
“Er… Well, only a select few at the Royal Court know this but… It seems His Highness is having problems letting go of a love from his past.”

Sigurd:
“Really? Any reason the two never married?”

Kurth didn't had a lover until Cygun, then afterwards he refused to have another. So Arvis would still had to have suspect something, yet he didn't.

Yes, that's what we know (or can assume). But the characters in universe don't know how illicit in the sheets Kurth was. All they know is that he had one affair and that means it's possible he could have another. I actually mention this in my Bloom fanfic (two plugs in one day, I need it, no one seems to be interested, I guess because Bloom is one of the least popular characters in the series) where they speculate that Deirdre could be one of Bloom's cousins (and in doing so show the exact moment where Alvis suddenly realises it in secret).