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If you could change/revise one Fates character's support conversations, who would it be and why?

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I'd agree with Camilla. The first defense whenever I say she's a dogshit character is usually people pointing to a few lines that appear pretty sparingly in her supports.

You have to dig pretty far to get anything other than "She's crazy, she manipulates everyone around her, she threatens to kill her friends and loved ones all the time, and she seems to have no moral compass".

More emphasis on why she's like that would make her 100x better. I'd also say Peri, but she's unsalvagable. The premise her character is built on is much less interesting than Camilla. Camilla's more frustrating because there's something there, but the writers thought it wasn't as interesting as the batshit yandere big sister bits.

Edited by Slumber

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31 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I'd agree with Camilla. The first defense whenever I say she's a dogshit character is usually people pointing to a few lines that appear pretty sparingly in her supports.

You have to dig pretty far to get anything other than "She's crazy, she manipulates everyone around her, she threatens to kill her friends and loved ones all the time, and she seems to have no moral compass".

More emphasis on why she's like that would make her 100x better. I'd also say Peri, but she's unsalvagable. The premise her character is built on is much less interesting than Camilla. Camilla's more frustrating because there's something there, but the writers thought it wasn't as interesting as the batshit yandere big sister bits.

I think Peri could have worked if she was appointed by Garon to be Xander's retainer (Garon seems to find all sorts of dangerous and amoral soldiers. Then again, in an ideal world, Garon would have fallen into a moral gray area instead of being a massive prick), and Xander/her support partner works with her to help her overcome her problem or help her come to terms with the loss of her mother. Sure, what she does still wouldn't be okay, but it would be clear that her actions have consequences, and that she's trying to change herself for the better.

Edited by ConquestVeteran

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29 minutes ago, ConquestVeteran said:

I think Peri could have worked if she was appointed by Garon to be Xander's retainer (Garon seems to find all sorts of dangerous and amoral soldiers. Then again, in an ideal world, Garon would have fallen into a moral gray area instead of being a massive prick), and Xander/her support partner works with her to help her overcome her problem or help her come to terms with the loss of her mother. Sure, what she does still wouldn't be okay, but it would be clear that her actions have consequences, and that she's trying to change herself for the better.

I mean, the issue with Peri being appointed by Garon is that this doesn't mean that Corrin has to accept her. By the time Peri joins in CQ, Corrin's pretty firmly on the "Yo, my adoptive dad sucks" train. The moment her Hans-iest proclivities pop up, the same old question of "Why the hell is she accepted in this army" will still be a major issue with her just existing. It'd really only explain why Xander kept her around.

The only way, IMO, to fix Peri is to either make her an entirely different character or get rid of her entirely. It's not a simple shift in representation through supports like Camilla could potentially be saved by.

Edited by Slumber

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7 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I mean, the issue with Peri being appointed by Garon is that this doesn't mean that Corrin has to accept her. By the time Peri joins in CQ, Corrin's pretty firmly on the "Yo, my adoptive dad sucks" train. The moment her Hans-iest proclivities pop up, the same old question of "Why the hell is she accepted in this army" will still be a major issue with her just existing.

The only way, IMO, to fix Peri is to either make her an entirely different character or get rid of her entirely. It's not a simple shift in representation through supports like Camilla could potentially be saved by.

I was thinking more along the lines of Corrin, following a talk with Xander, would allow her to join in exchange for her fixing her less savory tendencies, making it clear that if Peri harms anyone without reason, Peri's going to die as well. Peri follows Corrin and Xander's orders diligently, but her supports focus on her struggle to overcome what had become normal to her. That probably also brings up a lot of questions, but it's the best solution I can come up with that doesn't have her commit completely amoral actions without consequences or realistic repercussions. 

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I like the fact that Peri tells us several things about Nohr.  But they should also focus on her rather traumatic past, as well, rather than just her childish tendencies (leave that nonsense in the C supports).  Hell, the two can be interwoven ("I used to go out a lot as a kid, but then Daddy never let me leave the house.  The other kids went from being nice to calling Daddy a weakling."  Or stuff like that.).

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I would change one of Scarlet's two support. Scarlet having gem decoration as her hobby is fine. Its good when characters discuss the things they do off the battlefield, but Scarlet also has only two supports. So both of them focusing on the same thing is a waste.

We still don't really know much of Chev, the resistance and how Scarlet came to lead it. So having even one support focus on that would be nice.

Similarly I would alter one of Izana's two supports so they'd show there is something to him aside from being a goofball. He does lead a country after all.

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I would allow the kids to support with first gen characters. 

Forrest and Elise clearly get on very well when they meet so there's no reason Forrest shouldn't get a support with his favorite aunt. Siegbert could be very awkward about Camilla and Kiragi might just drive the serious Hinoka to grey hairs. 

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I definitely agree on Camilla. I feel like she's a product of poor planning because Fate's writers often show glimmers of brilliance until it's squandered by an oppressive agenda, i.e., Camilla has to be yandere while other interesting development is second. She does have her moments though, like her A support with Niles.

Another big one has to be Corrin. There's a lot to fix here, and frankly I haven't even read them all. Azura (Conquest) is a big one that comes to mind, and here's what I would've liked to see:

Corrin and Azura

Canon supports between these two is focused almost entirely on Corrin, and I found that really frustrating. Reading through it again, it's like a hilariously bad chat role-play you might've done with your friends on KiK or something. The purpose of this support was to develop Corrin's true thoughts on siding with Nohr. Let's add to that.

  • Azura should peel away a bit of her past for Corrin -- perhaps on childhood isolation or shifting national identities since they both have that in common.
  • Develop both characters and nations by having each discuss their time in Nohr/Hoshido. Set the world as the moral grey it should've been.
  • Azura should help Corrin stand for the decisions they've made. Corrin should help Azura feel belonged and loved by the Nohrian royal family.

I also would've also liked to see Niles play out differently with Corrin. I think it would be interesting if Corrin actually liked Niles' slanderous tongue because it keeps them grounded as a person since it must be stressful to be chosen by the MacGuffin sword.

Edited by Hearth
Specifying which one of Azura's supports I'm referring to.

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Of everything, Nina's supports annoy me the most because they could have been a lot more instead of literally always fujoshi talk. She has a support with Asugi, a fellow thief who also has problems with his father, and yet the two never bond on that because the entire support is about Nina's hobbies again. Nothing bothers me more than that one support convo that was completely wasted, and it probably sums up 3DS trope writing.

Edited by SatsumaFSoysoy

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I feel like characters such as Camilla and Corrin suffer issues that go beyond their supports, kind of like Xander does.  Camilla doesn't both flirt with and threaten a woman whose kingdom is being destroyed by her evil father within any supports, nor do Corrin and Xander march under Garon's banner knowing that everything he's doing is evil within supports.  So, I mean... imo, they're a lost cause without substantial overhauls of the story.

If there's one character who I think suffers the most from their supports, it's Soleil.  It's nice that the localization changed her so that she's kind of more an actual lesbian instead of that awful homophobic trope Japanese media shat out into existence.  However, she still needed work done on her.  Lots of work.  Like, as in they need to get rid of the option for male Corn to romance her, replace that option with female Corn, and have her be exclusively gay, and they'd need to make at least a couple of other female characters from her generation bi so that she could have some options.  And of course, let's not have her be extremely weird and creepy with Ophelia and her mother.

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I would allow the kids to support with first gen characters. 

Also this, though I'll add that most if not all of it should be exclusively platonic, because screwing your buddies' kids is weird.  Then again, so is having them grow up in hyperbolic time realms until they're roughly the same age as their parents, and them foisting them onto the battlefield.

If there's one support I would've loved to see, it's Oboro x Forrest.  I mean, come on, how could you not?  It's two insatiable fashionistas from separate sides of the border, if Oboro can have a support chain with the deplorable pervert Niles then she could have a support chain with the much more amicable fashion maven Forrest.  And it'd probably result in a much better friendship, tbh.

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Kiragi might just drive the serious Hinoka to grey hairs. 

As if her retainers don't do that enough on their own?

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I think Azura might also have the potential for a very interesting support conversation with Haitaka considering he kidnapped her. The C support could be very tense with Azura either not giving him the time of day or being frightened by him while Haitaka insists he did nothing wrong. B support could be about Azura saving Haitaka from a Hoshidan ninja or Faceless and the A support about a very shaken Haitaka begging for forgiveness which Azura could grant him.

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6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Siegbert could be very awkward about Camilla and Kiragi might just drive the serious Hinoka to grey hairs. 

Would it turn to grey immediately, or would they turn a shade of pink first? Perhaps's Sakura's?

 

No opinions on the Fates crew, but doesn't Peri's unpaired ending say she grew out of her habits? That could at least be a plastic-painted-bronze lining, which given how I've downgraded the expressions I'm mixing, I admit is thin.

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Camilla and Corrin suffer issues that go beyond their supports

I do agree with this, but we're not trying to fix their character completely, just picking out some supports we'd like to see changed. Plus, it's fun to speculate how they could've been different anyways because Fates had a lot of material with great potential.

Quote

I think Azura might also have the potential for a very interesting support conversation with Haitaka considering he kidnapped her.

Having captured units who turn-coated with supports would be very interesting. We could get multiple perspectives on the war between Hoshidans and Nohrians, as well as their purpose for fighting in the first place.

 

Edited by Hearth
added more to the discussion

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Well there's a lot of characters who could have used more in there supports~ I guess since I do like Peri, I would have liked if we got more from her than just this childish desire for bloodshed. Like, the way they did Henry was great so how did they manage to make so many of the reactions to Peri's traits so questionable?

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In my opinion, most Support conversations could be greatly improved. But instead of changing tens of them, I would like to focus on those that would be improved by a small change. Like it is the case of Silas and Camilla's A Support, where he shares his past feelings with her in the present tense, even when he is married. By simply changing the verb to the past tense, the conversation would be more in character with Silas.

Quote

Silas: Camilla, you must understand. I am also extremely close with Avatar. And I know how much he/she cares about you and appreciates your words of love. I do, however, know of another person [WHO WAS] desperate to hear those words from you...

Camilla: Oh? I can't imagine who.

Silas: This person truly desire[D] your love and admiration.

Camilla: Well, who could it be? Leo? Elise? You don't mean... Xander?

Silas: No, none of them. Camilla... I speak of myself.

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19 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

Well there's a lot of characters who could have used more in there supports~ I guess since I do like Peri, I would have liked if we got more from her than just this childish desire for bloodshed. Like, the way they did Henry was great so how did they manage to make so many of the reactions to Peri's traits so questionable?

I dunno but that is a good question. I have my suspicions but I might have to do a full dive into each character’s supports to really come to any solid conclusion.

as for the topic at hand, I’m just gonna echo peri cause while I do like her, I feel she could’ve used more supports that really dug into the nuances of her past.

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I’d change Peri and Xander’s support so that Xander is actually putting his foot down and exerting some control over her. Punishing her harshly for something she did and making it clear that Xander doesn’t just let her terrorize people scott free. That single support could have made her much more tolerable if it just showed Xander being even slightly aware of how dangerous and risky a retainer choice she is. But no, they decided Laslow was the one we needed to see Xander discipline.

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I would revise the Peri X Leo supports, so that Leo actually teaches Peri to be better instead of just saying that Peri is "maybe right"

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On 3/2/2019 at 2:47 PM, Alastor15243 said:

I’d change Peri and Xander’s support so that Xander is actually putting his foot down and exerting some control over her. Punishing her harshly for something she did and making it clear that Xander doesn’t just let her terrorize people scott free. That single support could have made her much more tolerable if it just showed Xander being even slightly aware of how dangerous and risky a retainer choice she is. But no, they decided Laslow was the one we needed to see Xander discipline.

Which is exactly the point. 

See below

On 3/2/2019 at 3:10 AM, eclipse said:

I like the fact that Peri tells us several things about Nohr.

Xander doesn't take any strides to help with her behavior because he, for the large part, doesn't see anything wrong with it. Xander himself specifically picked Peri of all people to be his retainer because of how ruthless she was as a fighter. This is Nohr's normal. This is what Xander knows. Obligatory Fates writing complaints aside, Peri might not be the best character, but she is a great allegory of how truly dark Nohr's setting is.

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