What if Armour could be used?

[Deathcon]

What the title states. What if we could put armour in our unit's inventory and have them give bonus in stats, skills, or status effects. I feel this would really work well with Three Houses and what looks like a pretty big inventory with 7 spaces.

Armoured classes can have basic armour with different types (I.e. Iron, Steel, Silver) and there being special armour that give +5 DEF and maybe skills like Pavise.

Would that work well?

[Vince777]

They had shields in Tearring Saga that worked quite like that and it's a Fire Emblem game in everything but the name. 

Limited uses before they would break but they gave you a passive defense boost for as long as you had them equipped. There were also special shields that would protect against certain elements and one that would raise Resistance instead, if I remember well. 

[Emperor Hardin]

27 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

They had shields in Tearring Saga that worked quite like that and it's a Fire Emblem game in everything but the name. 

Limited uses before they would break but they gave you a passive defense boost for as long as you had them equipped. There were also special shields that would protect against certain elements and one that would raise Resistance instead, if I remember well. 

One of the more interesting things about said shield system is that all the redundant anti armor weapons were instead anti shield weapons, except for the hammer.

Like Rapier was effective against shields, something both armor knights and cavaliers tended to use.

On a similar subject, I've often thought of a dis-armor feature as a counterpart to the dismount feature. I imagine it would make Armor Knights gain speed and the ability to move over more terrain in exchange for losing a lot of defense and strength.     

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I've heard complaints that modern Fire Emblem is already pretty micro manage-y by having so many reclass possibilities on units. Three Houses will also see the return of breakable weapons which we don't know how fresh-faced players will respond to. Having breakable weapons along with breakable armor may seem like too much in a fire emblem game. But Fire Emblem has lightly dabbled in the concept before. Path of Radiance had the Knight Ward accessory that boosts your defense and can only be equipped by certain classes. Legendary weapons through many of the games gave stats boosts that continued to be applied even when those weapons weren't currently equipped. 

I think in terms of in-universe logic, armor sets will probably be incompatible between classes. A myrmidon doesn't want what an armor knight wears. And body armor is of little use on mounted units when the mount is taking just as much or certainly more abuse than the rider does. Shelling out money for class-specific armor can seem egregious even if you use multiple units of a particular class since it doesn't make sense to buy a piece of armor and many units can equip it.

Maybe the most logical answer is to not have armor be equippable items. Just have it so you can spend war funds on upgrades for individual classes. All classes have unique base stats, so you'd be upgrading those base stats directly depending on what is available to buy. I know Valkyria Chronicles had such a system, though not the ability to reclass. It would give the player the ability to prioritize upgrades on individual classes they like, and it doesn't have to be limited to just boosting defense if they're willing to get creative.

[NinjaMonkey]

6 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

And body armor is of little use on mounted units when the mount is taking just as much or certainly more abuse than the rider does.

You do realise that the Great Knight class is essentially a General on a horse, right? Not to mention that horse armour is an actual thing.

Edited March 11, 2019 by NinjaMonkey

[Emperor Hardin]

7 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

You do realise that the Great Knight class is essentially a General on a horse, right? Not to mention that horse armour is an actual thing.

Eh, not really, least thematically.

Spoiler

TearRing Saga Great Knights AKA Iron Knights really are armor knights on a horse, however. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

18 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

You do realise that the Great Knight class is essentially a General on a horse, right? Not to mention that horse armour is an actual thing.

In that part of my post, I was talking about cross compatibility with armor between different classes. With that particular example what I meant was if there was horse armor, it would be useless on a non-horse riding class, and vice versa with regular armor not serving as protection for the horse. 

[Emperor Hardin]

5 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

In that part of my post, I was talking about cross compatibility with armor between different classes. With that particular example what I meant was if there was horse armor, it would be useless on a non-horse riding class, and vice versa with regular armor not serving as protection for the horse. 

Berwick Saga had something similar to that.

Many, though not all infantry units could equip light shields. Meanwhile the more defensive cavalry could use medium shields as could one infantry class. Large Shields were exclusively equipped by armor classes, outside of one class which functioned virtuall identically to the armored classes.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Emperor Hardin

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'd be fine with armor, although you'd want different types for every to use. Light for things like Clerics and maybe Swordmasters, Medium would suit Cavaliers and Heroes, Heavy is for Generals, Great Knights and perhaps Wyvern Lords (limiting them to Medium, or perhaps dividing it on an individual basis- Jill has Medium access, Haar gets Heavy- are also arguable).

 

This said, if we got equippable Armor, I was thinking then that it shouldn't be swappable mid-fight in most circumstances, unlike other weapons and other items. That way, you're forced into using a certain set and whatever advantages and disadvantages it brought for an entire battle.

 

Also, I'd call for Defense & Resistance stat deflation, that way, Armor would matter more for determining a unit's durability. And Armor access being dependent entirely on class would therefore place a greater emphasis on those able to use specific kinds. I like the pinging of stat procs on levelups as much as anyone else, but how much could Armor really matter if character X had a 60% Def growth? 

If focus is shifted away from raw stats to equipment, then the micromanagement isn't so bad. If raw stats are more forgettable, people can more easily focus on caring about properly equipping characters.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd be fine with armor, although you'd want different types for every to use. Light for things like Clerics and maybe Swordmasters, Medium would suit Cavaliers and Heroes, Heavy is for Generals, Great Knights and perhaps Wyvern Lords (limiting them to Medium, or perhaps dividing it on an individual basis- Jill has Medium access, Haar gets Heavy- are also arguable).

Great Knights have too many advantages over General already, I'd argue.

I liked the system set in BS, where the most defensive mounted units used medium shields. 

Fighter, Myrmidon, among others didn't use shields at all.

[NinjaMonkey]

37 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Eh, not really, least thematically.

They are in Fire Emblem, which is what we're talking about.

[Ertrick36]

I'll say that the only way armor could work in a way I'd like would mean fundamentally changing the game enough that it might upset a lot of people.  Unless people like the idea of using tabletop RPGs as inspiration for the armor system, replacing armor knights with soldiers, and removing great knights (so as to make promoted cavaliers able to effectively change to great knights).  Also, no durability unless they give me a blacksmith like in Genealogy.  If that isn't viable for the series, then I don't want equippable armor in FE at all.

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

This said, if we got equippable Armor, I was thinking then that it shouldn't be swappable mid-fight in most circumstances, unlike other weapons and other items. That way, you're forced into using a certain set and whatever advantages and disadvantages it brought for an entire battle.

Alternatively, you use up your turn equipping or unequipping the armor.  Perhaps you can move, but after switching your armor, you can attack or use an item.

I'd say for light armor, it should be easy enough to switch in and out of.  Or any armor that comes in just a few pieces, like perhaps a chestguard and pauldrons or a breastplate.

If it's mage armor (armor created by a mage or magical item such as holy water) or a shield, that also should be instantly equippable with no effect on the actions you can take within the turn.

[Flere210]

Imo shield would work better as a defensive equipment.

You can divide it in bucklers and other small shields that mostly boost evade and are good on swordmasters and the like, and heavier shields that boost defense and resistance at the cost of speed. 

Also, shields could bring in 2 handed weapons that are stronger han usual but does not allow to equip the shield, so you need to chose beetwen more offense or defense. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

22 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Great Knights have too many advantages over General already, I'd argue.

I liked the system set in BS, where the most defensive mounted units used medium shields. 

Fighter, Myrmidon, among others didn't use shields at all.

Fair enough on the GK side.

As for Shields, I'd consider them apart from Armor. So if we had both Armor and Shields maybe GKs get Large Shields, but only Medium Armor, whereas Generals are Large and Heavy.

Armor in such a world would provide passive boosts, whereas Shields would be as they are in Berwick, procs, and hence less consistent. Making the two not totally redundant.

As for Mercs and Fighters and whatnot, well I can see banning Myrms from shields entirely and have them be purely dodgetanks. Mercenaries could use Light Shields, but they'd have to be incompatible with Blades/Greatswords, which would be 2-handed weapons. I'd also include a dual wielding Sword+Dagger character who forsakes a shield for parrying with their two weapons. Greatswords, as well as Lances (as opposed to Spears) could specialize in smashing through Shields, while Maces/Clubs would be effective at bypassing Armor boosts.

Having separate Armor and Shields, plus Weapons and an Accessory slot, would be a lot of equipment to manage. But again, slashing growths and culling class swapping too would free up room for the new complexities.

[Emperor Hardin]

23 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

They are in Fire Emblem, which is what we're talking about.

While both in the armor category in the non console titles, General wear far bulkier armor then Great Knights.

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Fair enough on the GK side.

As for Shields, I'd consider them apart from Armor. So if we had both Armor and Shields maybe GKs get Large Shields, but only Medium Armor, whereas Generals are Large and Heavy.

Armor in such a world would provide passive boosts, whereas Shields would be as they are in Berwick, procs, and hence less consistent. Making the two not totally redundant.

As for Mercs and Fighters and whatnot, well I can see banning Myrms from shields entirely and have them be purely dodgetanks. Mercenaries could use Light Shields, but they'd have to be incompatible with Blades/Greatswords, which would be 2-handed weapons. I'd also include a dual wielding Sword+Dagger character who forsakes a shield for parrying with their two weapons. Greatswords, as well as Lances (as opposed to Spears) could specialize in smashing through Shields, while Maces/Clubs would be effective at bypassing Armor boosts.

Having separate Armor and Shields, plus Weapons and an Accessory slot, would be a lot of equipment to manage. But again, slashing growths and culling class swapping too would free up room for the new complexities.

That could work.

Forgot to mention, none of the bow using classes used shields in Berwick Saga.

[NinjaMonkey]

12 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

While both in the armor category in the non console titles, General wear far bulkier armor then Great Knights.

Which doesn't have any effect gameplay-wise.

[RexBolt]

We could be getting equipable armor in TH. After all, Heavy Armor is a skill there together with the weapons and magics. 

[Emperor Hardin]

On 3/11/2019 at 8:55 AM, NinjaMonkey said:

Which doesn't have any effect gameplay-wise.

But if armor and shields were equipment as this topic says, it would make sense both thematically and balance-wise for Great Knights not to have the same armor as Generals. 

[Hawkwing]

I wouldn't mind this. After playing Echoes, I would prefer having a separate item slot so that characters could hold onto one shield, ring, or provision, and have the rest of the item slots be weapons or healing items. It would be a nice way to retain the items from that game while still being allowed to use more than one weapon. I also like the idea of having to chose the armor at the start of the map, and being unable to change it until the next one. It means you have to think about the role of each unit that round, and what's worth sacrificing for another benefit.

About my only concern is that it would fall into the issue that weapon weight has. Namely, that it would only be interesting with characters with middling defense and/or speed, as slower characters aren't doubling anytime soon, so any speed penalties would be pointless, while fast characters may have so much speed that any penalties don't mean much most of the time. There is a balance there, and I can see certain armor sets giving bonuses to something other than defense or resistance (such as those that give skills or increase luck and so on), but I can see a repeat of a problem Fire Emblem already has regarding weight mechanics.

I've also had an idea I shared around a year ago on the site where armor would be cosmetic, but it would change depending on a units stats. A character with low defense may have no armor or use leather armor, when it grew to the middle of the road they would replace it with mail, and when it's near max they would wear plate. Not only would it be a great way to show progressions and growth, it would also be a good visual indicator of how strong certain enemies are before you look at their stats. About the only issue I see with this is the amount of resources needed to create different outfits of the same class, and how it could affect the official artwork of certain characters.

[vanguard333]

I could see the idea of additional armour having a fair bit of potential.

As an accessory for every class, one idea that could be interesting would be some additional armour components that could easily be added to any character model: for example, the option to give your characters helmets. They could offer multiple types of helmets with different advantages and drawbacks:

Sallet: A popular style of helmet most commonly used by soldiers. Offers a decent defence bonus. Probably defence + 2 or something like that. 

Kettle Hat: A style of helmet favoured by commoners and nobility alike. The wide brim helps against falling projectiles and descending blows, but provides little in facial protection. 

Armet: An elaborate visored helmet favoured by the wealthy elite. It offers great protection, but the visor limits visibility and breathing. defence + 5, accuracy - 5. 

Brass Helmet: An ancient design inlaid with ancient scripts used by mages for incantations. Offers good magical defence, but ill-suited against more modern weaponry. This helmet would provide a boost to resistance rather than defence. 

 

On 2019-03-10 at 8:14 PM, Deathcon said:

Armoured classes can have basic armour with different types (I.e. Iron, Steel, Silver) and there being special armour that give +5 DEF and maybe skills like Pavise.

Would that work well?

This could also work. I could see that. Would this add anything visually though, or would it just offer the stat boosts?