screenshot A relaxed Conquest playthrough (With Screenshots!)

[DehNutCase]

Double Posting since it's not letting me edit. The Moral Reset Count, is actually at 3.5.

That is, Moral Reset Count = 3.5.

Edit: And checking Odin's stats again. A level 10 Dark Mage Odin that got no stats for 5 levels would only be around the low side of Tier 0, not Tier -1 if you promote him. (You can easily push him into Tier -1 with Nosferatu or pair-ups or tonics, but he doesn't deserve Tier -1 at base.)

Edited March 22, 2019 by DehNutCase

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Whats a Moral Reset lol

 

 

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/12/2019 at 12:06 AM, DehNutCase said:

Pity you can't do things like marry Odin to Nyx to give her Samurai.

What? What do you mean by this? Because they have the same primary class. I would sooner say the issue is that Nyx just sucks - her stats everywhere but magic and speed are really bad. Unless that is what you're referring to...

On 3/19/2019 at 9:01 PM, DehNutCase said:

She's not really lying. But she's also not telling you about the part that it's pretty likely for you to see like 15 of these Elise levels in one playthrough. (Not that you should mind, Luck gives accuracy, and her high Spd and Mag means that you can get away with forged bronze tomes pretty easily to fix her low skill.)

Luck gives accuracy... at a rate of one point per two points of luck - ergo, Elise's high luck doesn't really make up for her low skill. Incidentally, it's why I consider Wyvern Rider Elise a quarter-baked gimmick and little else - axes and low skill are a losing combination. Just ask Gonzales.

On 3/19/2019 at 11:34 AM, Johnnie said:

I did Samurai Odin on my Hoshidan classes run. He turns into Ryoma by endgame with Heartseeker and a critical bonus on a forged Killing Edge.

One small caveat. Odin doesn't have unrestricted 1-2 range like Ryoma does. Which is why this comparison falls flat. There is the Levin Sword, but one, it runs off of magic, and two, it kills his avoid.

[DehNutCase]

21 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Whats a Moral Reset lol

It's when I do something retarded that should've cost a reset, but didn't. (From Jakob high-rolling a dodge because I mis-positioned, from Effie getting the 2 points of Spd she needed not to be doubled while holding a -5 speed Peri's because I was too stupid to swap out of it, etc.)

 

A regular reset is when I reload the chapter. (All 4 times so far have been crashes, but as you can see from my moral reset counter that's more luck than anything else.)

 

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

What? What do you mean by this? Because they have the same primary class. I would sooner say the issue is that Nyx just sucks - her stats everywhere but magic and speed are really bad. Unless that is what you're referring to...

I tested this before, if you try to Partner Seal Nyx she gets the Dark Mage line again. I don't remember if I did it when she was T1 or not, though, maybe it works differently when she's tier two, since she can technically change from Sorcerer to Dark Knight at tier 2.

Edit: I could be wrong though, I guess I'll go double check.

Double Edit: Huh. Nyx gets Samurai like she's supposed to. No idea why I remembered that not being possible, then. I remember being really disappointed that she couldn't get Samurai when I tried it. Guess my memory's just shit.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Luck gives accuracy... at a rate of one point per two points of luck - ergo, Elise's high luck doesn't really make up for her low skill. Incidentally, it's why I consider Wyvern Rider Elise a quarter-baked gimmick and little else - axes and low skill are a losing combination. Just ask Gonzales.

Nyx only has 1 skill and 10% growths on Elise. Elise has like 13 Luck and 30% [Edit: She has 50% on Nyx] growths or some shit on Nyx. Skill might be three times as good, but Elise gets a lot of fucking luck.

This is assuming equal levels, though, which doesn't happen unless Elise went Wyvern tier 1. (Since combat exp is pretty important if you aren't planning to early promote.) Edit: And Wyvern has worse skill and luck growths than Troubadour.

Edited March 22, 2019 by DehNutCase

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Nyx only has 1 skill and 10% growths on Elise. Elise has like 13 Luck and 30% [Edit: She has 50% on Nyx] growths or some shit on Nyx. Skill might be three times as good, but Elise gets a lot of fucking luck.

This is assuming equal levels, though, which doesn't happen unless Elise went Wyvern tier 1. (Since combat exp is pretty important if you aren't planning to early promote.) Edit: And Wyvern has worse skill and luck growths than Troubadour.

The problem is, luck's effect on accuracy is not that great - this isn't GBA, where luck and hit were point-for-point with each other. To put things into perspective, 30 luck only amounts to 15 hit, which happens to be the same as what 10 skill would give you. Except 30 luck means you're close to capping and thus it having no more effect on your hit chance (this is ignoring that some classes cap luck at lower than 30), whereas 10 skill isn't even close to capping skill. even on the classes with the lowest skill cap in the game.

[DehNutCase]

10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem is, luck's effect on accuracy is not that great - this isn't GBA, where luck and hit were point-for-point with each other. To put things into perspective, 30 luck only amounts to 15 hit, which happens to be the same as what 10 skill would give you. Except 30 luck means you're close to capping and thus it having no more effect on your hit chance (this is ignoring that some classes cap luck at lower than 30), whereas 10 skill isn't even close to capping skill. even on the classes with the lowest skill cap in the game.

So...?

Are you seriously going to take the ~15 skill ~10 luck person over the ~13 skill ~30 luck person just because the 15 skill guy has more room to grow? And I don't particularly care about hit rates if I'm hitting 100% hit rates already---bronze forges might suck for MT, but they get extra hit past +5 to make up for it if you actually gave that much shits. [Edit: This is the kind of logic that gets Mozu into teams.]

 

And you were the one who hated randomly getting crit. If you look at Beruka's screenshot from chapter 10 she had a 1% [Edit: It's 2%] chance to get crit by the axe guy---I like tanking Takumi on the next Takumi map with early promoted Elise because she tends to be the only person with enough luck not to be staring down OHKO crit explosions.

Edited March 22, 2019 by DehNutCase

[Shadow Mir]

23 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

So...?

Are you seriously going to take the ~15 skill ~10 luck person over the ~13 skill ~30 luck person just because the 15 skill guy has more room to grow? And I don't particularly care about hit rates if I'm hitting 100% hit rates already---bronze forges might suck for MT, but they get extra hit past +5 to make up for it if you actually gave that much shits.

 

And you were the one who hated randomly getting crit. If you look at Beruka's screenshot from chapter 10 she had a 1% chance to get crit by the axe guy---I like tanking the Takumi on the next Takumi map with early promoted Elise because she tends to be the only person with enough luck not to be staring down OHKO crit explosions.

I'm only stating the facts. I already said earlier, Nyx sucks because her stats in almost every parameter are bad. Her growth rates are:

30% HP
15% Str
70% Mag
35% Skill
60% Speed
20% Luck
20% Defense
40% Resistance

That's... pretty damn bad. That's Little Mac levels of overspecialization right there.

+5 forges? Really? Weren't you the one who said going above +4 was impractical (personally, I'd draw the line at +3 since the exponential increases for anything after are rapidly going into "not worth it" territory, and even that's pushing it)? All this is ignoring that I generally find the forge system in Fates impractical simply because of how it works - it's nigh unusable without online, since you only get resources for one weapon type (two if you happen to be playing Revelation) out of six regularly.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

It's when I do something retarded that should've cost a reset, but didn't.

Nice term! I think I should definitely keep such a count from now on. I always feel guilty when I get through a turn I shouldn't have.

[DehNutCase]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

+5 forges? Really? Weren't you the one who said going above +4 was impractical (personally, I'd draw the line at +3 since the exponential increases for anything after are rapidly going into "not worth it" territory, and even that's pushing it)? All this is ignoring that I generally find the forge system in Fates impractical simply because of how it works - it's nigh unusable without online, since you only get resources for one weapon type (two if you happen to be playing Revelation) out of six regularly.

+4 is impractical because you stop getting +2 MT per forge. It goes into stuff like hit and crit instead. For bronzes you just get a ton more hit. Considering hit is the issue, you want that. You want to drop MT for hit, because you apparently care so much about it. (I don't give a shit.)

Also, realize the coliseum is the main source of stones. You trade 5 into whatever you want and then just win fights for the rest of it.

 

But yes, if you don't allow visiting it's tons more annoying to forge. I allow visiting because disabling forges stops the game from being Fire Emblem. If the forges didn't cost money that's another thing, but they're already gated by both chapter (Blacksmith level) and gold, to the point where they're very well balanced.

 

Further, Bronze weapons cost 500. This means their +5 forges are an Iron's +4, or a Steel's +3, or a Silver's +2. A +5 Bronze is 16,000, which is expensive, but I can afford it right now if I wanted to. I can't because it's gated by my Blacksmith level, not because Bronze +5s break the bank.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm only stating the facts. I already said earlier, Nyx sucks because her stats in almost every parameter are bad. Her growth rates are:

30% HP
15% Str
70% Mag
35% Skill
60% Speed
20% Luck
20% Defense
40% Resistance

That's... pretty damn bad. That's Little Mac levels of overspecialization right there.

Nyx is hard to use because Dark Mage is bad, she herself is a very good ranged nuke. Forges can fix 3 different issues on a unit:

Atk, Accuracy, or Luck.

 

Nyx has sky high Atk. bad accuracy (according to you), and bad luck, so Bronze forge fix both issues at once, paying only 1 MT compared to an equal price Iron at Bronze +5, (2 MT at Bronze +6, 3 at Bronze +7, which is capped Edit: Bronze will only ever be 1 MT behind Iron, since Iron goes into +5 territory past that. You're just trading crit for hit.).

 

You think she's terrible because you're objectively playing a different game than I am. I don't know if it's because you just don't play on Lunatic*, or if it's because I consider forges a vital part of Fire Emblem (to the point where I'll probably never disallow castle visits in Fates), but your units have very different requirements and uses than mine.

*Edit: Mind, I don't know what difficulty you play on. I'm just guessing you don't play Lunatic because half my team has positive odds of being crit by Axe dudes on Ch. 10, and it gets worse from here, IRRC, and apparently you can't stand that on any unit.

Edited March 22, 2019 by DehNutCase

[Shadow Mir]

42 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

+4 is impractical because you stop getting +2 MT per forge. It goes into stuff like hit and crit instead. For bronzes you just get a ton more hit. Considering hit is the issue, you want that. You want to drop MT for hit, because you apparently care so much about it. (I don't give a shit.)

Also, realize the coliseum is the main source of stones. You trade 5 into whatever you want and then just win fights for the rest of it.

Well, you have a point there somewhat. Most other units don't really need that much hit because they don't have accuracy problems to the extent Nyx does.

The same coliseum that's rigged to fuck you over at almost every possible opportunity? That coliseum?  Is that the one you're referring to?

46 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

But yes, if you don't allow visiting it's tons more annoying to forge. I allow visiting because disabling forges stops the game from being Fire Emblem. If the forges didn't cost money that's another thing, but they're already gated by both chapter (Blacksmith level) and gold, to the point where they're very well balanced.

 

Further, Bronze weapons cost 500. This means their +5 forges are an Iron's +4, or a Steel's +3, or a Silver's +2. A +5 Bronze is 16,000, which is expensive, but I can afford it right now if I wanted to. I can't because it's gated by my Blacksmith level, not because Bronze +5s break the bank.

Exactly. And it's why I don't acknowledge it as worth it - I don't have time for that.

Well, you have a point about being gated by smithy level (you can't forge +5 weapons until after chapter 20); I just think the expenses don't help since that cash could have gone to better things.

42 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Nyx is hard to use because Dark Mage is bad, she herself is a very good ranged nuke. Forges can fix 3 different issues on a unit:

Atk, Accuracy, or Luck.

 

Nyx has sky high Atk. bad accuracy (according to you), and bad luck, so Bronze forge fix both issues at once, paying only 1 MT compared to an equal price Iron at Bronze +5, (2 MT at Bronze +6, 3 at Bronze +7, which is capped Edit: Bronze will only ever be 1 MT behind Iron, since Iron goes into +5 territory past that. You're just trading crit for hit.).

 

You think she's terrible because you're objectively playing a different game than I am. I don't know if it's because you just don't play on Lunatic, or if it's because I consider forges a vital part of Fire Emblem (to the point where I'll probably never disallow castle visits in Fates), but your units have very different requirements and uses than mine.

Except forges don't fix her being deficient damn near everywhere else. Also, a "very good ranged nuke" shouldn't require me shitting away a ton of cash that could have been used for better things just to function, and there's no way in the seven hells I will acknowledge Nyx as a "very good ranged nuke" when her other statistical problems ruin her (her bad luck doesn't really hurt her THAT much when pretty much anything that gets to her either kills her straight up or comes really damn close). FFS, she's pretty much Fates' answer to Gonzales (in case you don't know what I'm getting at, Gonzales is a Brigand from Binding Blade; he has great speed and attack, but is brought down by his low skill, which isn't helped by his being locked to axes, which are the least accurate weapon type). Long story short, I consider Nyx a liability that doesn't help me in any notable fashion, and even if I did play Lunatic, I wouldn't see myself budging on that.

[DehNutCase]

22 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except forges don't fix her being deficient damn near everywhere else. Also, a "very good ranged nuke" shouldn't require me shitting away a ton of cash that could have been used for better things just to function, and there's no way in the seven hells I will acknowledge Nyx as a "very good ranged nuke" when her other statistical problems ruin her (her bad luck doesn't really hurt her THAT much when pretty much anything that gets to her either kills her straight up or comes really damn close). FFS, she's pretty much Fates' answer to Gonzales (in case you don't know what I'm getting at, Gonzales is a Brigand from Binding Blade; he has great speed and attack, but is brought down by his low skill, which isn't helped by his being locked to axes, which are the least accurate weapon type). Long story short, I consider Nyx a liability that doesn't help me in any notable fashion, and even if I did play Lunatic, I wouldn't see myself budging on that.

The main thing about Lunatic is that units never get to the point where they have 'decent' bulk by the standards of pretty much every other game. Like, my favorite game is RD because god damn your overpowered units are overpowered in that game, with Ike, Haar, the Royals etc. mowing people down like grass.

In Conquest if your bulky unit is in range of 3 dudes your bulky unit's probably dead. There are absurdly bulky units, of course, but 'average' units like Silas or Arthur or even Corrin tend to be in the 3RKO range for most of the game, at least in my experience. Although mind that they should be a bit bulkier than that if you're in the habit of chugging Tonics, which I'm not.

 

This means that there's pretty much 2 general strategies:

You can move in a deathball stacking fuck tons of stats (like how Elise + Jakob is providing something in the neighborhood of 3 + 3 + 2 = 8 extra def/res for Corrin, which is kind of retarded), or you can have enough mobility and combat that every wave of enemies is completely annihilated in one player phase.

Nyx is very good at the second type, since in my experience just using Bronze (with +2, maybe +3 if I'm feeling generous) over the other weapon types means she has enough accuracy, and her natural offensive growths means she'll have no problems 2HKOing people and no problems doubling people. The fact that her classes give her tons of mobility helps her a lot here, and I care about that more than raw stats. (+1 move from Outlaw and then being able to use Bow Knight or Dark Knight are great pluses for me.)

 

In easier difficulties your bulky units won't have problems handling an entire wave by themselves, but it takes some real overpowered shit like L&D Vantage Jakob to do that on Lunatic. (And I'm doing this run in part to find out just how long L&D Swordfaire Vantage stays relevant, and whether he contributes well past the 'solo everything' stage. I'm not leveling him like crazy right now because I already know he's a overpowered mess until at least the start of late-game.)

Edited March 22, 2019 by DehNutCase

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

The main thing about Lunatic is that units never get to the point where they have 'decent' bulk by the standards of pretty much every other game. Like, my favorite game is RD because god damn your overpowered units are overpowered in that game, with Ike, Haar, the Royals etc. mowing people down like grass.

In Conquest if your bulky unit is in range of 3 dudes your bulky unit's probably dead. There are absurdly bulky units, of course, but 'average' units like Silas or Arthur or even Corrin tend to be in the 3RKO range for most of the game, at least in my experience. Although mind that they should be a bit bulkier than that if you're in the habit of chugging Tonics, which I'm not.

 

This means that there's pretty much 2 general strategies:

You can move in a deathball stacking fuck tons of stats (like how Elise + Jakob is providing something in the neighborhood of 3 + 3 + 2 = 8 extra def/res for Corrin, which is kind of retarded), or you can have enough mobility and combat that every wave of enemies is completely annihilated in one player phase.

Nyx is very good at the second type, since in my experience just using Bronze (with +2, maybe +3 if I'm feeling generous) over the other weapon types means she has enough accuracy, and her natural offensive growths means she'll have no problems 2HKOing people and no problems doubling people. The fact that her classes give her tons of mobility helps her a lot here, and I care about that more than raw stats. (+1 move from Outlaw and then being able to use Bow Knight or Dark Knight are great pluses for me.)

 

In easier difficulties your bulky units won't have problems handling an entire wave by themselves, but it takes some real overpowered shit like L&D Vantage Jakob to do that on Lunatic. (And I'm doing this run in part to find out just how long L&D Swordfaire Vantage stays relevant, and whether he contributes well past the 'solo everything' stage. I'm not leveling him like crazy right now because I already know he's a overpowered mess until at least the start of late-game.)

...Are you sure you're not thinking of some other game? Because from what I read, enemy stats are no different on Conquest Lunatic.

 

Bold: That, I cannot see as true when in general, there is nothing Nyx can do that Ophelia cannot do better. Nyx has the same crippling overspecialization problem that Orochi has, which is bad (the difference is that Orochi specializes in skill instead of speed). I just don't see any good reason to use Nyx with a forged fire tome when Ophelia doesn't force me to gamble on every attack, especially since a +2 forge doesn't offer any noteworthy accuracy boost over a vanilla weapon (only +2, which isn't gonna make a difference between missing more than the Star Wars series' Stormtroopers and being a deadeye). The key word here is "consistency", which Nyx doesn't have in spades. Sure, she can hit hard - IF she hits. But that's the problem - she cannot be expected to hit because her skill and luck are so bad. Also, what's with the mention of Bow Knight? Because assuming the Shining Bow is your endgame, getting there with Nyx's stats being as they are is gonna be painful. In addition, I will admit, stats aren't everything, but still, a unit with bad stats is gonna be harder to use than one with good stats. What's more, I wouldn't really consider mobility more important than stats outside of two FE games - those being Binding Blade and Genealogy of the Holy War, both of which are coincidentally called Horse Emblem.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[DehNutCase]

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

...Are you sure you're not thinking of some other game? Because from what I read, enemy stats are no different on Conquest Lunatic.

 

Bold: That, I cannot see as true when in general, there is nothing Nyx can do that Ophelia cannot do better. Nyx has the same crippling overspecialization problem that Orochi has, which is bad (the difference is that Orochi specializes in skill instead of speed). I just don't see any good reason to use Nyx with a forged fire tome when Ophelia doesn't force me to gamble on every attack, especially since a +2 forge doesn't offer any noteworthy accuracy boost over a vanilla weapon (only +2, which isn't gonna make a difference between missing more than the Star Wars series' Stormtroopers and being a deadeye). The key word here is "consistency", which Nyx doesn't have in spades. Sure, she can hit hard - IF she hits. But that's the problem - she cannot be expected to hit because her skill and luck are so bad. Also, what's with the mention of Bow Knight? Because assuming the Shining Bow is your endgame, getting there with Nyx's stats being as they are is gonna be painful. In addition, I will admit, stats aren't everything, but still, a unit with bad stats is gonna be harder to use than one with good stats. What's more, I wouldn't really consider mobility more important than stats outside of two FE games - those being Binding Blade and Genealogy of the Holy War, both of which are coincidentally called Horse Emblem.

If you think enemy stats are no different on Lunatic, why not just play on Lunatic? If you're right then you can do whatever, if you're wrong then you'll explode.

Edit: Also remember enemies tend to get higher weapon ranks on harder difficulties, and weapon ranks give damage and hit. (If they're sword or dagger they get 1 damage per rank, so have fun with that.)

 

Forging bronzes is about using the Bronze weapons 10% accuracy over Iron, or 15% over steel. The forges also give an extra 2% or so over Iron, and another 4% or so over steel, because you'll have more forge ranks. You're basically saying 10 skill is too low to fix accuracy issues, right now.

The forges are to fix the MT problem if you were a cheapskate and preferred to use half-price weapons for some reason. (Yes, bronzes have 2 MT less than Iron, they're also half price. If you think bronze weapons do piddly damage it's because you're a cheapskate, not because bronze weapons are bad.)

 

At max level, assuming Camilla was Ophelia's mother, Ophelia has 5 Mag less than Nyx, 6.5 more skill and ~17 Luck. A bronze using Nyx has better accuracy and damage than an Iron or Steel using Ophelia. (Nyx also has more speed than Ophelia, incidentally, so I hope she high-rolled speed if you're planning to use Steel.)

Assuming Nyx was Ophelia's mother, The Mag difference drops to .7 or so, the skill difference to about ~4, and the Luck difference to ~16. This means a Bronze using Nyx is faster than Ophelia with Iron, and they both do about the same damage.

 

WHAT GAME ARE YOU PLAYING?

Edit: Mind, this is ignoring child bonus stats, which is a factor if you sandbag recruiting children. But the thing about units that don't exist is that they don't fucking exist. I prefer bad units that exist over good units that don't exist. Mozu is better than unrecruited Ophelia because I can at least suicide her to do some AI manipulation.

Edited March 22, 2019 by DehNutCase

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

If you think enemy stats are no different on Lunatic, why not just play on Lunatic? If you're right then you can do whatever, if you're wrong then you'll explode.

Edit: Also remember enemies tend to get higher weapon ranks on harder difficulties, and weapon ranks give damage and hit. (If they're sword or dagger they get 1 damage per rank, so have fun with that.)

 

Forging bronzes is about using the Bronze weapons 10% accuracy over Iron, or 15% over steel. The forges also give an extra 2% or so over Iron, and another 4% or so over steel, because you'll have more forge ranks. You're basically saying 10 skill is too low to fix accuracy issues, right now.

The forges are to fix the MT problem if you were a cheapskate and preferred to use half-price weapons for some reason. (Yes, bronzes have 2 MT less than Iron, they're also half price. If you think bronze weapons do piddly damage it's because you're a cheapskate, not because bronze weapons are bad.)

 

At max level, assuming Camilla was Ophelia's mother, Ophelia has 5 Mag less than Nyx, 6.5 more skill and ~17 Luck. A bronze using Nyx has better accuracy and damage than an Iron or Steel using Ophelia. (Nyx also has more speed than Ophelia, incidentally, so I hope she high-rolled speed if you're planning to use Steel.)

Assuming Nyx was Ophelia's mother, The Mag difference drops to .7 or so, the skill difference to about ~4, and the Luck difference to ~16. This means a Bronze using Nyx is faster than Ophelia with Iron, and they both do about the same damage.

 

WHAT GAME ARE YOU PLAYING?

Edit: Mind, this is ignoring child bonus stats, which is a factor if you sandbag recruiting children. But the thing about units that don't exist is that they don't fucking exist. I prefer bad units that exist over good units that don't exist. Mozu is better than unrecruited Ophelia because I can at least suicide her to do some AI manipulation.

I've seen that said on the Fates forum.

I'd much rather be a cheapskate than wind up in deep trouble because I shit away my money dabbling with Fates' trainwreck of a forging system. After all, there's still stuff like tonics and staves that are more worthy investments.

 

Except Nyx is high maintenance, extremely inconsistent, and doesn't give me anything of note for all the trouble she poses (sure, she hits hard, but that doesn't help much when you miss more than the Stormtroopers in Star Wars). That's what I call a liability.

 

Sure, Nyx may have more play time than Ophelia, but that means bugger all when you suck or otherwise actively drag the team down. Nyx is guilty of doing both, because her stats are ass in almost every parameter, and her few good parameters are compromised because of her other stats being trash.

[DehNutCase]

If you can't afford to use forged Bronze you can't afford to use Iron, or Steel, or Silver.

 

You're literally saying that units can't afford weapons that cost more than 4k, because that's how much a +3 Bronze Tome costs. (And personally I think that's overkill for Nyx, +2 is already 7 MT, 1 less than Steel, with 92 Hit, 12 more than Iron, 17 more than Steel. +3 is the price of a +0 silver, with still 1 MT less than Forged steel, but 20 more hit this time.) Like, you're actually saying that you can't afford to even buy half of a brave sword, because that shit costs 8k gold.

 

If you're that deep in the hole the problem wasn't because you were forging shit.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

If you can't afford to use forged Bronze you can't afford to use Iron, or Steel, or Silver.

 

You're literally saying that units can't afford weapons that cost more than 4k, because that's how much a +3 Bronze Tome costs. (And personally I think that's overkill for Nyx, +2 is already 7 MT, 1 less than Steel, with 92 Hit, 12 more than Iron, 17 more than Steel. +3 is the price of a +0 silver, with still 1 MT less than Forged steel, but 20 more hit this time.) Like, you're actually saying that you can't afford to even buy half of a brave sword, because that shit costs 8k gold.

 

If you're that deep in the hole the problem wasn't because you were forging shit.

Way to put words in my mouth there. And none of this addresses the issue where Nyx's poor stats alone are enough to make her a questionable choice that I'd hesitate to use even on freaking normal mode, let alone Lunatic. Like I said earlier, I am not nearly as restricted in what I can have Ophelia use and still be effective with as I am with Nyx, who NEEDS to stick to Fire to do anything worth a damn. Having less options is inferior to having more options, last I checked.

[DehNutCase]

How is Ophelia less restricted when she's slower and less mag heavy? You try running Ophelia with fire---not just anyone can pick up a bronze weapon and use it, MT for hit is a real trade off.

 

And if 4k isn't bank breaking, do you think Nyx has negative skill or something? Because 20% hit is 13 skill worth of accuracy.

Like, you're pretending Nyx somehow costs 4k and has bad accuracy and has bad damage at the same time, even though you can only pick one of those weaknesses. (Taking a 4k weapon solves accuracy and damage, taking bad accuracy solves price and damage, taking bad damage solve price and accuracy.)

[Shadow Mir]

10 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

How is Ophelia less restricted when she's slower and less mag heavy? You try running Ophelia with fire---not just anyone can pick up a bronze weapon and use it, MT for hit is a real trade off.

Because she doesn't need to stick to Fire to do well, unlike Nyx. Duh!  Or did you "conveniently" forget that Ophelia doesn't have ass for stats that aren't Mag or Speed? Long story short, Ophelia has options, Nyx doesn't, because her stats suck worse than Smash 64 Link's recovery.

13 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

And if 4k isn't bank breaking, do you think Nyx has negative skill or something? Because 20% hit is 13 skill worth of accuracy.

Like, you're pretending Nyx somehow costs 4k and has bad accuracy and has bad damage at the same time, even though you can only pick one of those weaknesses. (Taking a 4k weapon solves accuracy and damage, taking bad accuracy solves price and damage, taking bad damage solve price and accuracy.)

Congratulations. You graduated from "Putting Words In Someone Else's Mouth 101" with honors. Aren't you proud of yourself? I never said that Nyx has bad damage - I said that her high attack is one of her few good things. And that it's not nearly enough in the fact of her having suck for stats almost everywhere else.

[DehNutCase]

9 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because she doesn't need to stick to Fire to do well, unlike Nyx. Duh!  Or did you "conveniently" forget that Ophelia doesn't have ass for stats that aren't Mag or Speed? Long story short, Ophelia has options, Nyx doesn't, because her stats suck worse than Smash 64 Link's recovery.

Congratulations. You graduated from "Putting Words In Someone Else's Mouth 101" with honors. Aren't you proud of yourself? I never said that Nyx has bad damage - I said that her high attack is one of her few good things. And that it's not nearly enough in the fact of her having suck for stats almost everywhere else.

Ophelia's stats outside her offenses are also pretty ass, if you wanted to know. She either has a mom that has physical stats or she has a mom that has magical stats---have you actually ever looked at the growth rates of possible parents in this game?

 

Camilla's the only one that has both in reasonable numbers and Nyx's offenses dumpsters that Ophelia variant. (To the point where Nyx using a Bronze Tome +0 will beat most 4k and under weapons on Camilla!Ophelia.)

 

Bronze wants sky high Atk to function. Ophelia doesn't have this. Iron wants reasonable amounts of every stat to function, Ophelia has this. Steel wants sky high speed and accuracy to function, neither Nyx nor Ophelia has this. Ophelia has the accuracy, Nyx has the speed, neither has both.

What the fuck options are you talking about?

 

Edit: And running Nyx doesn't force me to pair Odin with someone that may or may not be relevant. You talk about 'options' and ignore the options you're taking away from Odin.

Edited March 22, 2019 by DehNutCase

[Shadow Mir]

17 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Ophelia's stats outside her offenses are also pretty ass, if you wanted to know. She either has a mom that has physical stats or she has a mom that has magical stats---have you actually ever looked at the growth rates of possible parents in this game?

 

Camilla's the only one that has both in reasonable numbers and Nyx's offenses dumpsters that Ophelia variant. (To the point where Nyx using a Bronze Tome +0 will beat most 4k and under weapons on Camilla!Ophelia.)

Why would I have Camilla mother Ophelia? I admit, Ophelia's bound to have poor defense - it's a mage thing. I don't see the need for her to have both physical and magical stats.

17 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Bronze wants sky high Atk to function. Ophelia doesn't have this. Iron wants reasonable amounts of every stat to function, Ophelia has this. Steel wants sky high speed and accuracy to function, neither Nyx nor Ophelia has this. Ophelia has the accuracy, Nyx has the speed, neither has both.

What the fuck options are you talking about?

Missiletainn, which has the power of steel, but doesn't make follow-ups harder like steel does. As a bonus, only Ophelia can use it.

17 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Edit: And running Nyx doesn't force me to pair Odin with someone that may or may not be relevant. You talk about 'options' and ignore the options you're taking away from Odin.

Hmmm.... Just like you're ignoring how much running Nyx takes away from the team (because a unit slot that goes to her isn't going to a superior unit)?? Because I consider Nyx one of the bottom 5 units in Conquest. Maybe even bottom 3.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[DehNutCase]

Invasion 1:

Pre-map Planning:

Ah, got to love Conquest and its asshole skill-sets. (And jackass AI.) But more on those in the map itself, skill-sets aren't that important yet.

 

Not much to say about this map because the enemy density is so low. Kill stuff, don't die, sit a guy on the throne tile if you're afraid of getting capped. Some of the horses apparently just straight up bum-rush the throne, which is annoying as hell. And apparently the Wyverns don't aggro unless you smack them around first, preferring to fly away from the throne to hit some random buildings. *shrug*

 

As you can see my castle layout isn't really optimized for Invasions or anything---this is just how I like the castle setup when I'm doing my pre-map and post-map stuff, but it doesn't really matter for invasions.

 

We're finally reaching the point where I can do non-trivial deployment choices now. Although Mozu, Arthur, and Silas are still easy drops. Silas because I didn't bother to level him (if I wanted a Paladin I'd just class change Jakob), Arthur because Beruka came in and he didn't high roll speed like crazy, Mozu because it's Mozu.

I'm dropping Nyx this map because I don't want her combat and Camilla's personal skill is better for helping other people have combats.

That said, I'll probably need to drop one more unit, and it's definitely between Effie and Beruka---whoever high-rolls speed like crazy is probably the one I'm keeping.

 

Looking at my lineup, though, I'm already a bit over the line in terms of unit count. Ideally I'd only have 5 units that want exp with 10 deployment slots, and I'm counting:

Corrin, Jakob, Elise, Odin, Niles, Camilla, Selena. Or 2 units over the line even if we ignore Effie and Beruka. I can slow-roll Elise and just use her as a staff, more or less dropping her from exp requirements, but that still leaves a problem when Camilla starts needing exp as well. (Camilla doesn't need exp right now since she's over-leveled, but she'll start wanting them pretty soon.)

 

I might have to cut both Effie and Beruka regardless of their speed rolls.

 

Objectives:

As much exp for Selena as possible, and then distribute the ones she can't get to the lowest level'd people in the group, sans Effie. (IRRC Chapter 11 is an exp fountain for people who can solo entire rooms, and I'm not even sure if I'll keep her for the long run anyway.)

 

My Castle Stuff:

  

The lottery was meh, but holy shit what a high-roll on the kitchen.

  

I think 'adults' just means 1st gen units, and I tend to more or less only run first gen.* Stat-wise it's not as good as +1 Spd/+1 Def, but it hits everyone rather than half of everyone.

*I have nothing against child units, and I usually go out of my way to recruit Caeldori if we're in Revelation or Birthright, but in Conquest I have a hard time doing child maps without making the game's difficulty curve a joke. A lot of the child maps are easy enough to do even before Camilla joins, and they have promoted enemies on the map for massive exp + most of them have good item rewards.

I demolish Lilith's Temple because I don't want her stealing my exp. (It's free to rebuild so don't worry if you need to do this for an invasion map.)

 

Resource Distribution:

  

A lot of people like sticking this on Azura, because that's like 50 levels of Def growths for her or something. It's hard to get her weapon levels, though, since we're already at the point where she's being OHKOd by random mooks. The cavaliers in this map have 22 Atk base, occasionally Elbow Room for +3 more. Azura has 17 hp and 4 def right now. (Although she does get another point of def from using a Naginata.)

On Effie it just means you can do whatever you want. We're not at the point yet where someone walking around with 23 Def can be seriously threatened by much. (Although there are a lot of random armor effective weapons in Conquest, so be careful even if you have this.)

  

I like Moonlight. I might give her the Steel Tome later but it really doesn't matter too much either way. Maybe I should give her the Raider Tome (Disrobing Gale), but Camilla's still getting pretty piddly exp even for 'boss' units, so she'll be there as an emergency button & +3 Atk buff-bot more than anything else.

  

Niles happened to be manning the shop, so I got a nice 100g discount for buying enough Bronze Bows to forge him a +2. (It's not really for him, he's fine with his iron + all this random shit I picked up, it's for the people who'll be going into Bow Knight and Adventurer later.) It does invisibly save me like, I don't know, 2% of a reset every map?

The Illusory Yumi is stupid good, by the way. I don't think I'll be using it to cheese the hexing rod mage room, though. Remember you have this as an option if you're into using bp/vp rewards, but it shouldn't be necessary.

  

Behold, blatant favoritism. LUL.

Before I stuff enough stat-boosters to make even Mozu good into her, let me take a quick aside to talk about Selena 'normally.'

  

Odin has +2 Str and +1 Res from the food he ate right now.

So, as we can see, Selena has some damn fine bases considering Odin's blessed like hell. (Odin has ~ -1 hp, = Str, = Mag, +1 Skill, + 3 Speed, +.5 Luck, +1.5 Def, -1 Res compared to his averages right now.)

 

They're tied in Str, Mag doesn't matter (Odin will care about it again later, but not for a while yet), Odin has way more skill, speed, and luck, but Selena has a point more def and 2 points more res. And she's a level behind right now.

Their growths also end up pretty similar, Selena will keep her Def and Res lead forever, but Odin will get tons more hp to the point where for 2 hits they're about tied in bulk. Selena will get overkill speed in something like Samurai, but Odin will be a wall of Skill and Luck, which Selena tends to lag in.

That said, if it's something like Swordmaster Odin vs. Hero Selena then Hero's amazingly optimized growths will mean that the breakdown ends up being something like 2 hp, 5 skill, 14 luck, vs. 2 Str, 7 Def, which is honestly pretty alright. Odin will be tons more reliable on offense, but Selena's tons more reliable on defense.

 

Too bad being on the defense kind of sucks in Conquest so you end up making Selena Bow Knight a lot. (Bow knight's growths are pretty nicely optimized as well, but its bases aren't as nice as Hero's, so her Str will get pretty shaky if you're using a sword rather than a bow.) The Sky Knight line also trade some Str she can't afford and some Def she can afford into... luck and res. Res is great, but luck is kind of eh when even people like Odin will be staring down positive crit rates a surprising amount of times. (Conquest.jpg)

 

A fair review should probably put Selena very slightly ahead of Odin, since she has the better bases, being 5 levels ahead at join time + doesn't need to spend a second seal to access her bases. (Lul Dark Mage.) But Odin comes in 2 or 3 maps earlier so it doesn't matter that much---he even has time to grind his weapon rank for that sweet, sweet +1 Atk per sword rank. Samurai and Dark Mage have some god damn amazing skills, but so does Mercenary and Sky Knight, so they're about equal even outside their stats.

 

This game won't be a fair review. I'll be stuffing Selena with so, so much stat boosters. Don't treat her performance this game as normal.

  

  

  

  

Ha. Ha ha. Ha.

The only reason I didn't stuff her with the other dragon herb is because she's in real danger of hitting the Speed cap before promotion already. 

This leaves the Spirit Dust, the Dragon Herb, the Arms Scroll, and half a pair of Boots from my bp/vp and path reward stat boosters.* (I have the Dracoshield and Talisman naturally, and I'll get getting a Goddess Icon this map.)

*I don't have the Speedwings from the 500 bp reward, and I'll add it to the pile if I somehow managed to get 500 bp from castle visits---I do some offenses occasionally, but I doubt I'll get that much bp.

  

Note I'm buying Bronze here. (Only needed 3 since Selena starts with 1.) Just like how Odin enjoys his crits and Astra, Selena also likes using Sol and Good Fortune to save a fight's worth of healing every once in a while.

The sword isn't really for long term use, since she'll have axe based options after promotion and lance based options if she heart seals. (I'll be forging this into Odin's Bronze once everyone's goes through E-rank swords.)

I didn't forge an Iron despite having +1 Available for more or less free (I don't even lose their selling cost) because I'm honestly not sure what I want to do with my Irons yet.* They're in the uncomfortable spot where you need accuracy, but not that much, and not too fast or too slow---either one would push you towards Steel---so if you're min-maxing you usually don't use them. Irons are still very good 'all-around' weapons, though, so you can't really go wrong forging them.

*Even selling one and keeping the other is an option I'd like to keep on the table, at least for now.

 

The Map:

  

Did this to try and bait the cavaliers into sticking around while Selena murders the right side. (It didn't work, asshats bum rushed my throne regardless of anything else---maybe I should've sat Beruka on the throne to discourage them or something.)

It's hard to see, but Elise is directly behind the Selena & Camilla pair. The dragons don't attack Selena, though, even though they definitely can damage her. Maybe they would've attacked if I separated Camilla and Selena---she has enough bulk thanks to all the stat boosters and the +4 damage, -4 damage buffs from Elise & Camilla not to die even if everyone charged into her.

See how she would've taken 5 damage? Meaning this guy should've dealt 2 damage to her when Elise is around. Also note how she's 1 damage away from the ORKO, so I don't do this.

This is also the main problem with Selena and Odin---mediocre Atk + swords = piddly damage, even after a +2 Bronze or +1 Iron. Selena fixes it with Strong Riposte, which is +3 damage when she's counter-attacking, and Odin fixes it, eventually, with Swordfaire and L&D. Right now though all he has is forges (which is capped since I'm meming with Bronze), high-rolling attack, and crit-rolls---if, you know, he wasn't holding a Bronze.

But it's also usually the only problem. Both of them have high mobility classes---although Selena has more and better---and everything else about them tends to be good.

I do this instead, after using Elise to separate Camilla and Selena.

The two of them don't really need to be pair-up at all right now, since their stats are so high, but Camilla's pair-up gives +1 move. Camilla gives +2 def in a pair-up, but the fact that her Personal gives a -1 damage buff means that the pair-up is really just for the +1 move.

I decided that if these guys didn't want to get free hits in, but would rather bum rush the throne instead, I'll just murder them.

That feeling when Beruka is doubling you.

(The cavalier side had a lot less Def, if you're wondering why Odin isn't being walled right now.)

  

17 hp, 5 defense, Gentilhomme means that a 22 Atk hit would put Azura down to 2 hp.

This asshat goes for the throne instead.

  

So I run Selena over to murder the guy for exp.

  

Selena doesn't have sword ranks like Odin, so she doesn't have a 2HKO, meaning I had to use Jakob to soften the guy up.

As you can see from the map...

I have no bloody clue what the AI is doing. Yeah they're destroying the bottom buildings, but why.

Nothing to do except try to walk closer to them.

Couldn't quite reach the danger line this turn so I had to end turn like this.

Needed Jakob's debuffs again (curse Selena's D rank in swords, couldn't she at least have C?)

  

Defense, 'yay.' (Pretty sure everyone in Chapter 11 still ORKOs her.)

Yeah Azura's levels basically stopped mattering already.

  

Neither Selena nor Jakob care about getting attacked by the Wyvern pair-up.

Down-side? The Wyvern pair-up doesn't care about attacking into Jakob. He dings them for 2x0, lul.

  

The Mercenaries who started from the bottom of the map are moving up now, so we'll want to finish the Wyverns next turn.

Selena had a 2HKO already (from Jakob's debuffs), but Jakob also hit the Wyverns enough to charge their shield-gauge, so he's fixing that problem right now.

Their hit rates might be sketchy but god damn that's a lot of damage. Selena is next to Elise right now. (Note how she would've missed the OHKO without the +1 damage from Lily's Poise, it's why I moved Elise there.)

  

She has a 5% Mag growth by the way. Wow that's a high-roll. Pity she doesn't really care about it unless you're going Falcon Knight for healing.

Excellent bulk growths. And that speed growth is why I didn't use the last Dragon Herb, there was a pretty good chance she'd waste some Speed procs from hitting Mercenary caps---it doesn't matter that much, though, considering she'll cap speed in her 2nd tier most of the time anyway & it's not like she'll be missing doubles in the mean time.

  

Exactly enough because Elise is here, cheers.

  

Right side has 2 more turns before being an issue but I decide to finish things next turn anyway. Selena's already 11, meaning everyone on this 'main' squad is 11-13 already, so she doesn't need to hog combats anymore.

  

Ahahahah. 27 Atk, 21 Def on initiation, and Lunge so the Killing Edge guy can fuck your day up. (Selena has a 7% chance to get crit, by the way, even with her Bronze Sword +10 Dodge.)

She also has 17 Defense after Camilla's pair-up, so the Killing Edge guy knew better than to try---he swapped to the Steel Sword side before attacking Selena.

Yeah... chug a def tonic before fighting these assholes unless you're Effie.

  

Doop.

This picture is pretty much why I don't like Killing Edges this game. You can't get enough of them to forge their MT high enough to matter. Much easier to just go for the guaranteed 2HKO with a high level forge (and occasional crit-kill or skill proc---a ton of classes have +crit for free).

And Odin smacks this guy with Azura helping (I hope she gets weapon exp from Attack Stance, because that's pretty much the only way for her to get any out of Arms Scrolls).

  

Odin Dark is a firm believer of the 'why use stat boosters when you can just be blessed like hell' school of thought. He'll always get a bunch of stats every level---getting bad levels isn't something he does often---but Str and Spd are real nice. His Str is pretty shaky and he does want overkill speed in case he ever wants to swap out of the Swordmaster line.

  

  

This is why people never use Infantry when maps are big. All the stats in the world don't matter if your mobility is potato tier.

It's not a good sign when Selena is 2HKOing you, I'll be perfectly honest. It's fine if she 2HKOs you on the counter, but being 2HKOd in player phase means your bulk is kind of terrible. That said, she does have 3 Str from stat-boosters, so this picture isn't nearly as damning as it seems. 

And that's a wrap.

 

Epilogue:

Camilla and Selena have a 'fast' support, so it's pretty reasonable to expect that they'd get A-ranked after 3 maps. This is their 2nd map, so they get a B-rank. This means Selena has very fast Wyvern access if you're sick of her shaky Atk and want to use axes instead.

Camilla likes having Shuriken-breaker because of Ninja reasons, but she's not really in a rush to pick it up or anything, seeing how it's a level 15 skill.

[DehNutCase]

43 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Hmmm.... Just like you're ignoring how much running Nyx takes away from the team (because a unit slot that goes to her isn't going to a superior unit)?? Because I consider Nyx one of the bottom 5 units in Conquest. Maybe even bottom 3.

You can't have 'superior' units in Lunatic Conquest because there's not enough exp to go around. In an exp starved situation it's the min-maxed people who have offenses. Ophelia's steel tome does jack all because you can't forge it. +3 Speed and +1 MT over steel is not enough when everyone on the team is expecting to be underleveled.

A lot of the things you're saying come from not playing Lunatic. Enemy stats are higher and your team's stats are lower---from Lunatic exp being pretty bloody terrible---this means that if you're aren't a specialist you don't have stats. I'm not even sure Jakob has stats and he has 15 points of Atk propping him up from the Samurai line, hence why I'm testing him this run.

 

Like, if all you want to talk about is Conquest Normal and Conquest Hard then fine, but realize I can't talk about units in those difficulties because I'm not playing on those difficulties.

[Shadow Mir]

12 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

You can't have 'superior' units in Lunatic Conquest because there's not enough exp to go around. In an exp starved situation it's the min-maxed people who have offenses. Ophelia's steel tome does jack all because you can't forge it. +3 Speed and +1 MT over steel is not enough when everyone on the team is expecting to be underleveled.

A lot of the things you're saying come from not playing Lunatic. Enemy stats are higher and your team's stats are lower---from Lunatic exp being pretty bloody terrible---this means that if you're aren't a specialist you don't have stats. I'm not even sure Jakob has stats and he has 15 points of Atk propping him up from the Samurai line, hence why I'm testing him this run.

 

Like, if all you want to talk about is Conquest Normal and Conquest Hard then fine, but realize I can't talk about units in those difficulties because I'm not playing on those difficulties.

And if I consider Nyx abysmal even on Normal, how in the name of Duma do you expect me to think she's not terrible in fucking Lunatic?! Use common sense, dude. Seriously. Because if someone's bad even on normal mode, there's no chance in the seven hells they're gonna be good on Lunatic.

[DehNutCase]

10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And if I consider Nyx abysmal even on Normal, how in the name of Duma do you expect me to think she's not terrible in fucking Lunatic?! Use common sense, dude. Seriously. Because if someone's bad even on normal mode, there's no chance in the seven hells they're gonna be good on Lunatic.

Because everyone else became more terrible, faster. (You also sound like you have no idea how to use squishy units, like, at all. Edit: Meaning your rating probably isn't accurate.)

Everyone gets worse going from Normal to Hard, Hard to Lunatic. Nyx happened to not be affected as much because on all three difficulties she has overkill offenses, whereas other units' barely good enough bulk or offenses can become not good enough anyway.

 

Like, if a unit is 9/10 offenses and 1/10 defense, vs. another unit that's 8/10 offense 7/10 defense, if you don't need much stats to function then take the second one. But if 8/10 offenses might as well be 0 and 8/10 defenses might as well be zero then the 9/10 offense guy is the only one that can do things.

The disparity isn't that big, of course, but what you're missing is that units don't get better or worse at the same rate as you change difficulties. Overkill offenses turn into good enough offenses, but good enough offenses or good enough bulk might just well turn into not good enough.

 

Edit: It's the same reason I consider Arthur as very, very good even though you think he's hot garbage.

His bulk (if he doesn't get crit), went from massive overkill to just barely good enough. Everyone else went below him because they don't have his hp pool. You think 500g (for the Bronze Axe---you can sell his Iron for 500 if you want to keep his damage, buy another Bronze and forge it) is more expensive than feeding people the 4 or so levels they'd need to not get 2HKOd, I don't.

Edited March 23, 2019 by DehNutCase

[DehNutCase]

It's not letting me edit the Invasion post, so here's a missed bit on one of Jakob's levels. Sorry.

[This happens just before Selena kills the Silver Sword guy]

Plate is -3 Str, -4 Def, -4 Res, so very good debuffs. Jakob is pretty average in all growths so whether you use a physical dagger or a magical one is more dependent on enemy stats than anything else.

  

I don't know who he thinks he is, but these are some weird ass levels. He's 4 speed above average right now, although 1.4 Str, .6 Def, and .2 Res behind. (His other stats are all ahead, incidentally.)

And here's the first Heal staff broken of the game.

Me being so miserly about heal staves this run means that Elise is pretty far behind the rest of the team in levels, but I'm used to using her early promoted, so this doesn't really change anything about her mid and late game. (She'll be a bit worse, personally, and the team will be a bit better, due to exp distribution, but she won't be that much worse---might even be better if I end up slow-rolling her to a level 20 troubadour promotion. Can't imagine spending that many turns healing being optimal, though.)

[End Stupid Can't be Edited Section]

Edit: I also made a mistake about weapon ranks. I don't know why, but I thought Selena was behind a rank in weapon ranks compared to Odin. But that wasn't it---the reason Odin was doing more damage was because he had an Effie pair-up for more Str.

Edited March 23, 2019 by DehNutCase