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The current 3 Fighters Passes theory.


Jedi
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1 minute ago, Jedi said:

This is picking up steam. Dataminers and such going along with it, we might be getting 15 more fighters (that's including Joker). 

Sounds wayyyyyyy too good to be true. S4 had only seven, including three oldies (albeit Mewtwo and Roy had to be rebuilt from the bottom up).

If we are getting 15, I'd expect some Echoes thrown in there (half sounds too high though). And who even would be the other 14? Hopefully a new Xeno rep.

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14 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sounds wayyyyyyy too good to be true. S4 had only seven, including three oldies (albeit Mewtwo and Roy had to be rebuilt from the bottom up).

If we are getting 15, I'd expect some Echoes thrown in there (half sounds too high though). And who even would be the other 14? Hopefully a new Xeno rep.

3 seasons would sound about right; that's what Killer Instinct got, and SFV is on it's 3rd season and is winding down.

Ultimate has also sold 12 million/6 times as much as those games and Nintendo's president is pretty open about releasing more DLC for well-selling games (see: Captain Toad expansion half a year after it launched). The only obstacle I'm seeing would be Sakurai himself, but he's also enough of a workaholic that he'd probably go through with it.

While this could be a placeholder, there were already 30 placeholder slots before; as-is, it feels like they're definitely considering more at this point in time.

I wouldn't be shocked of Monolith Soft's next game gets promoted in a theoretical second pass.

Edited by The DanMan
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Well, I always did want the next Smash bros game to be a "platform" of its own like other fighters. Years of updates is great for people willing to pump cash into the game, as well as players who actually enjoy playing the game years after release. It also makes more sense now that online play requires a regular subscription, so Nintendo would no doubt want Smash to go down this route if it were feasible. By the end of three fighters passes, you will have spent 75 dollars on dlc, plus 5 dollars if you didn't get Piranha Plant as an early adopter bonus. That's pretty poor compared to SF5's 60 dollars to nab its three season passes. Though it warrants mentioning that SF5 permanently dropped the price of seasons 1 and 2 in order to justify their Arcade Edition re-release of the game. Could Smash drop the price of its fighter pass in the future?

I guess it's a little... superflous to think of them adding that many fighters. If there's one thing Smash Bros. has an abundance of at this very moment, it's playable characters and stages, which is all the fighter pass offers. They did mention wanting to add mii fighter outfits as DLC like Smash 4 but we haven't seen them do that yet as long as you don't count Rex as the fighter pass bonus costume. If I worked at Nintendo, I'd be proposing the production of skins. Players love cosmetics and their price tag in other fighting games tends to be pretty high. It takes a lot less work to make a skin than to make a whole new character. Plus they've got this entire Echo Fighter distinction seemingly going to waste if they're not going to monetize them. I know I sound like a scumbag right now, but I hate when profits aren't maximized, it's my OCD I guess.

Biggest drawback to them going through with this? Probably just that Sakurai is still stuck working on the same Smash game for all that time. I dunno how hands-on his role is in the production of DLC characters, but I think you can definitely predict this will cut into his opportunity to work on any other game. And that's a shame. He's a brilliant game developer, and while I know he probably loves Smash more than any fan I've ever met, that love comes at serious health risks. And I know his gaming repertoire is massive (show me another japanese guy who owns the xbox line of consoles, I dare you to try). When he splinters off into a new project, the result can be stunning, and I want to see more hits like that one, even if they end up as under-appreciated as Kid Icarus Uprising.

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36 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sounds wayyyyyyy too good to be true. S4 had only seven, including three oldies (albeit Mewtwo and Roy had to be rebuilt from the bottom up).

If we are getting 15, I'd expect some Echoes thrown in there (half sounds too high though). And who even would be the other 14? Hopefully a new Xeno rep.

Take this into account and it sounds likelier than you think too.

Plus on the Echoes front, from what we know Ken was the last and is planned to be the last echo period.

Edited by Jedi
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1 minute ago, Jedi said:

Take this into account and it sounds likelier than you think too.

Oh.?

(I think I better start on my own Elite 14 wish/realistic list.)

 

22 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

3 seasons would sound about right; that's what Killer Instinct got, and SFV is on it's 3rd season and is winding down.

Ultimate has also sold 12 million/6 times as much as those games and Nintendo's president is pretty open about releasing more DLC for well-selling games (see: Captain Toad expansion half a year after it launched). The only obstacle I'm seeing would be Sakurai himself, but he's also enough of a workaholic that he'd probably go through with it.

While this could be a placeholder, there were already 30 placeholder slots before; as-is, it feels like they're definitely considering more at this point in time.

I wouldn't be shocked of Monolith Soft's next game gets promoted in a theoretical second pass.

I'm not aware of what other fighting games have done. So the SFV launched in 2016, started and completed its first wave that year, did another wave the next year, the third wave the year after, and now is on the fourth wave with a possible fifth and final one ending in 2020. Sounds like Smash U could have a long and vibrant life ahead of it, one that could long enough for Smash Ne Plus Ultra on the Switch 2 to be announced.

And 30 placeholder slots? CSS reform must happen! I stand by my proposal of collapsible boxing characters by franchise or theme (Nintendo oldies for Ice Climbers + ROB + Mr. G&W for example), unless someone has a better idea.

And shame XCX2 is not going to be that next game. "Goddess/Godslayer Elma" or some new character who becomes the star of XCX2 and ends up destroying whatever the true antagonist of humanity via special powers (although no crazy powers would be fine) would be great. I'm still going to buy the game though, and probably its Smash rep if I ever get the game.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Biggest drawback to them going through with this? Probably just that Sakurai is still stuck working on the same Smash game for all that time. I dunno how hands-on his role is in the production of DLC characters, but I think you can definitely predict this will cut into his opportunity to work on any other game. And that's a shame. He's a brilliant game developer, and while I know he probably loves Smash more than any fan I've ever met, that love comes at serious health risks. And I know his gaming repertoire is massive (show me another japanese guy who owns the xbox line of consoles, I dare you to try). When he splinters off into a new project, the result can be stunning, and I want to see more hits like that one, even if they end up as under-appreciated as Kid Icarus Uprising.

And he is the father of Kirby, even if he has never touched a title's development since what, Amazing Mirror? He deserves a chance to try something new. And then place that newborn baby in the Smash arena.

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6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And he is the father of Kirby, even if he has never touched a title's development since what, Amazing Mirror? He deserves a chance to try something new. And then place that newborn baby in the Smash arena.

Close, Air Ride was his last. And Amazing Mirror was the first Sakurai-less Kirby game. The Kirby series has honestly been great from the word GO since Sakurai's departure. Shame we can't quite say that about Fire Emblem. FE6, WOOF. 

On the subject of echos in fighter passes, I think it's an important distinction that they only claimed they wouldn't sell Echos. They did not comment on whether Echos might be released as free DLC, or come with a DLC newcomer in the case that they're an echo of that character. Plus, and I know Smash fans would mount this defense, the no echo fighter rule for DLC inclusions was probably written before any decisions were made about future fighter passes. And if they did have echos in future fighter passes, those passes may just end up at lower price points to compensate for their lower value. We don't know what their plan is. We're talking about something that wouldn't be announced for almost another year if it does happen at all.

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11 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

On the subject of echos in fighter passes, I think it's an important distinction that they only claimed they wouldn't sell Echos. They did not comment on whether Echos might be released as free DLC, or come with a DLC newcomer in the case that they're an echo of that character. Plus, and I know Smash fans would mount this defense, the no echo fighter rule for DLC inclusions was probably written before any decisions were made about future fighter passes. And if they did have echos in future fighter passes, those passes may just end up at lower price points to compensate for their lower value. We don't know what their plan is. We're talking about something that wouldn't be announced for almost another year if it does happen at all.

That could be, we could get echoes with new fighters. Some Sora supporters for instance were thinking Roxas might come along with him for instance. If that were to happen that is.

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If they decide to do Echoes alongside some of the actual DLC fighters, then that could fill up slots and take out the need for a third fighter's pass if they did at least 5 Echoes.

I guess I should also mention that there's a rumor about an alternate costume of some kind for Joker.

If it's not an alternate costume, "Jane" might be an Echo Fighter and fill up one of the 15 slots alongside Joker, which would leave 13 slots left.

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If we really are getting that many DLC fighters, I kinda have hope for Dixie Kong again. There seems to be a trend of third parties so far with Joker and the rumored Dragon Quest protag, but not ALL of these can be third party, right? And seriously, there are still some first party characters who deserve to be in before them imo and Dixie is one.

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2 hours ago, Jedi said:

Some Sora supporters for instance were thinking Roxas might come along with him for instance. If that were to happen that is.

I support this happening wholeheartedly. Roxas for smash, my dream might finally happen.

Anyways, I hope Nintendo does a deal or something for those fighter-passes, since I do not have 75 dollars to spare on Smash characters. I might just have to do what I did in Sm4sh, which is pick my 3 favorites, although I might to 5 since there are that many this time.

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34 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

5 individual fighters

 

10 echo fighters

 

Probably what placeholders are at the end of the day.

No Echoes as DLC slots, they pretty much shot down the fact that we'd pay for Echoes at all. 

The only way I see us getting any echoes (and I currently don't) is a Simon and Richter twofer like deal. 

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4 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Close, Air Ride was his last. And Amazing Mirror was the first Sakurai-less Kirby game. The Kirby series has honestly been great from the word GO since Sakurai's departure. Shame we can't quite say that about Fire Emblem. FE6, WOOF. 

Weren't Dreamland 3 and Kirby 64 made without his overview while he was at HAL though? Compared to Super Star, they both might be taken as steps back given they removed the expansive copy abilities approach and returned to the 1 move per ability trait of Adventure and DL2. I've also heard criticisms of their physics I can't personally determine the validity of.

Not to say this was inherently a bad move, I did hear someone once argue in favor of treating copy abilities as things you take and drop frequently, rather than something you play favorites with and can effortlessly use from beginning to end of a level. It's just a different approach to copy abilities than KSS went with, and which HAL and present fans seem to prefer.

The Amazing Mirror did lack expansive powers, so in a way like FE6 it was a step back compared to something before it. Although it did begin creeping in expansive copy abilities back in again with Master. It also gloriously brought back Meta Knight in the mainline Kirby games after the Dark Matter Trilogy benched him (and I think KDL2 also lacked Sakurai's overview- not that the GB could have handled expansive powers), and Meta Knight is distinctly Sakurai for me. Why? Because the DMT lacks him entirely, while KSS, Sakurai's masterpiece, gave him good old Meta Knight's Revenge, elevating him to a full villain after Adventure had him as a frequently appearing, but ultimately not incredible boss. And I think Sakurai wore his Meta love in Brawl, although he was no enemy to KD3 either. (I'm an MK fan myself.)

 

 

To be on topic, maybe they could throw an echo fighter in for season pass bonuses on the ones that aren't the first, it's a slight loophole, but I doubt that. It'd probably just be a Mii costume again.

 

1 hour ago, DarthR0xas said:

I support this happening wholeheartedly. Roxas for smash, my dream might finally happen.

 

Sora and Roxas and RIku, Repliku, Xion, Aqua, Ventus, Terranort, MOM (could he play at all the same without it being an injustice? I don't play KH.) all stand in a way better off than Joker. They and their franchise has actually appeared on Nintendo systems (ignore PQ and PQ2), you can't have KH3 without 3D, or 2 without CoM (yes I know it got Re: remade elsewhere). Although they are from SE, and unless FF and KH receive different degrees of parsimony from SE how could they, KH is an FF soap opera, there is room for doubt. And SE isn't quite in so cozy a relationship as Atlus is with Nintendo.

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30 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Weren't Dreamland 3 and Kirby 64 made without his overview while he was at HAL though? Compared to Super Star, they both might be taken as steps back given they removed the expansive copy abilities approach and returned to the 1 move per ability trait of Adventure and DL2. I've also heard criticisms of their physics I can't personally determine the validity of.

64 had the combined powers though which people have wanted back ever since, and DL3 is quite it's own thing. 

Physics are more punishing than most Kirby games, but not to an insane degree.

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38 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Weren't Dreamland 3 and Kirby 64 made without his overview while he was at HAL though? Compared to Super Star, they both might be taken as steps back given they removed the expansive copy abilities approach and returned to the 1 move per ability trait of Adventure and DL2. I've also heard criticisms of their physics I can't personally determine the validity of.

Not to say this was inherently a bad move, I did hear someone once argue in favor of treating copy abilities as things you take and drop frequently, rather than something you play favorites with and can effortlessly use from beginning to end of a level. It's just a different approach to copy abilities than KSS went with, and which HAL and present fans seem to prefer.

Ah? I never thought of that distinction, but I agree with the assessment. Kirby should always be willing to adapt to his environment, and not just stick to a beloved copy ability until they're presented with a one room puzzle in which they must light a fuse with fire, but that's what the player invariably will do with such versatile movesets. I do think it's good design that you've got a collection of powerups to choose from before boss fights in this series, so the player can grab that favorite moveset as prep for a fight. Maybe Kirby games should institute advantages for frequent switching of abilities. Like having an enhanced moveset for a set period of time before it becomes a more nerfed version of it. Or powering up Kirby's offense, defense, and speed stats during that period to cut down on balancing decisions.

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

64 had the combined powers though which people have wanted back ever since, and DL3 is quite it's own thing. 

Ugh, I've heard my fill of that suggestion. "Crystal Shards had 49 copy abilities, that's so much more than later games!" Yeah, but all of them are one attack. While modern copy abilities are entirely different playable characters. Plus abillity mixing IS back, in Star Allies. It just changes attack properties and damage rather than resulting in a new move. I'm fine with that compromise.

38 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

and Meta Knight is distinctly Sakurai 

This is canon now.

38 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sora and Roxas and RIku, Repliku, Xion, Aqua, Ventus, Terranort, MOM (could he play at all the same without it being an injustice? I don't play KH.) 

How does somebody KNOW so much without being interested enough to play the games? Do you just osmosis information from the very air? Anyway, I'm off the Sora hype train at the moment, and have been since I had my phone pulled up during the end credits of KH3. To answer the question though, all those playable characters enjoy unique movesets. Well, maybe "unique" is too strong of a word. There's only so many ways you can swing a stick before somebody points and say "there, the second attack in their air combo is the same, echo fighter confirmed". Suggesting Roxas as an echo always felt disingenuous to me. He's Sora's nobody, sure, but never has the nobody been depicted as all that similar of a person. Watch the two fight together in KH3 and you can see how distinct their fighting styles are.

Edited by Glennstavos
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6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And shame XCX2 is not going to be that next game. "Goddess/Godslayer Elma" or some new character who becomes the star of XCX2 and ends up destroying whatever the true antagonist of humanity via special powers (although no crazy powers would be fine) would be great. I'm still going to buy the game though, and probably its Smash rep if I ever get the game.

We know their next game is not related to X in any way (probably). They had concept art out and a recruitment drive going on in August 2017; based on the art and job listings, it's going to be straight fantasy (minimal sci-fi influence, at least on the surface) and more online and action focused in the gameplay department. May or may not be unconnected to the Xenoblade name entirely.

5 hours ago, indigocean said:

If they decide to do Echoes alongside some of the actual DLC fighters, then that could fill up slots and take out the need for a third fighter's pass if they did at least 5 Echoes.

I guess I should also mention that there's a rumor about an alternate costume of some kind for Joker.

If it's not an alternate costume, "Jane" might be an Echo Fighter and fill up one of the 15 slots alongside Joker, which would leave 13 slots left.

This info being found a month ago is what got me and other people thinking that there would be a female protagonist in a P5 re-release and Nintendo was cross-promoting with Atlus over it. (It's incredibly odd that we didn't get any gameplay footage in February, despite Corrin and Bayo being shown off 2 months in advance-- all we've got is "end of April", and the actual P5R news drops on the 23rd/24th).

But the fact they are an alternate costume already IMO completely rules out the chances of them being an Echo fighter.

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44 minutes ago, Jedi said:

64 had the combined powers though which people have wanted back ever since, and DL3 is quite it's own thing. 

Physics are more punishing than most Kirby games, but not to an insane degree.

Yeah I'm not calling them bad, just different. I agree the combination powers were cool, I had a lot of fun with them as a kid. Not sure what my favorite was, but it might have been fire sword, lightsaber, refrigerator, or shuriken. And the Animal Friends were fun as well. And if you don't count Sailor Dee, 64 introduced Bandana Dee sans bandana years before his actual establishment as the "little 4th member" of the "Kirby quartet" with RtDL.

Plus both games do have very pleasing aesthetics. Going back to colored pencil or crayons wouldn't be so bad. Not so high technicaaaaal! as live action movies or yarn, but I did like like KDL3. Flat can be beautiful, as good old SotN indicated in the era when 3D was all the rage. And there isn't a bad planet in all of 64, with the levels having really good backgrounds from what I remember, more than some modern 2.5 games have.

 

39 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Ugh, I've heard my fill of that suggestion. "Crystal Shards had 49 copy abilities, that's so much more than later games!" Yeah, but all of them are one attack. While modern copy abilities are entirely different playable characters. Plus abillity mixing IS back, in Star Allies. It just changes attack properties and damage rather than resulting in a new move. I'm fine with that compromise.

Isn't it only 36 combos? Including the abilities by themselves without the second slot filled.

Planet Robobot and Star Allies has if I just counted right, 24 non-limited use Copy Abilities. Half of CS's combos. I think if HAL pushed themselves and didn't mind some overlap and very zany results from the combos, they could eek out 36 visually distinct combinations. And they could replace the double-ups on oneself with limited-use powers perhaps (so Fire-Fire gives Monster Flame). 

 

39 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Maybe Kirby games should institute advantages for frequent switching of abilities. Like having an enhanced moveset for a set period of time before it becomes a more nerfed version of it. Or powering up Kirby's offense, defense, and speed stats during that period to cut down on balancing decisions.

44 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Sounds like a neat idea. It would make Kirby more complex, which might offset its ease and simplicity. But let's face it, Kirby isn't just for kiddies, I'm certain more Kirby fans are 40 with a chin that looks like a wet beaver than are 6 years old. Plus they could always add a "Simple Mode" for novices where the complexities were removed.

Kirby has gotten a bit stale as of late, the KSS formula has been used to good effect, with Super Abilities, Hypernova, Robobot Armor, and the multiplayer and alternative character of Star Allies adding some measure of changeups. Yet it isn't enough, I think Kirby still has to do something more to excite me again. And I don't mind if I can't go on a Ninja or Circus or Mirror rampage forever if that is what it takes for that to happen. 

 

39 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

How does somebody KNOW so much without being interested enough to play the games?

I don't have a life, I've read plenty off of GFAQs's message boards. That is where all I know comes from. I've done the same with Persona 5, which is something else I sadly find disagreeable to myself, even if some of the core gameplay sounds good. I look through windows, but don't walk through the door. I have not gone so far as watch LPs though, nor have I fulfilled Francis's 10th Axiom- "I love going on message boards and complaining about games I’ve never played!", I don't post at all there.

I think the root cause of being permeable to KH from afar goes back to old Nintendo Power, there was an article there for CoM once, and once years later for 358/2. Got a slight interest from reading those, had I actually bought either, maybe I'd have actually went whole hog. 

 

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

This is canon now.

I did not intend it that way. :lol:

Dark Meta Knight must be symbolic of his self-destructive work habits then. Further embodied in how Nightmare in Dreamland's Meta Knightmare mode and Canvas Curse's Meta Knight have reduced health compared to other characters. And Galacta Knight is him struggling against the legacy of his prior work, to produce the next greatest Smash the world has ever known by clashing the current greatest Smash the world has ever known. He might no longer make Kirbys, but he is like the Nightmare, when HAL sleeps, he visits them in their dreams, happy ones though.

 

5 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

We know their next game is not related to X in any way (probably). They had concept art out and a recruitment drive going on in August 2017; based on the art and job listings, it's going to be straight fantasy (minimal sci-fi influence, at least on the surface)

I'm aware of this, and I think I'll enjoy it anyhow. My first Monolith experience was Baten Kaitos, and that certainly was, perhaps because of Tri-Crescendo, less sci-fi than Monolith usually does, nor at all Xeno (save like two tiny cameos). I just don't want Takahashi leaving us hanging forever, I'm little afraid the artist in him will find it passe to ever return.

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2 hours ago, Jedi said:

No Echoes as DLC slots, they pretty much shot down the fact that we'd pay for Echoes at all. 

The only way I see us getting any echoes (and I currently don't) is a Simon and Richter twofer like deal. 

The 5 DLC fighters comes with the 10 echoes

 

I doubt anyone wants to pay for echo fighters. I mean I would, but that's not really the point

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1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

He's Sora's nobody, sure, but never has the nobody been depicted as all that similar of a person. Watch the two fight together in KH3 and you can see how distinct their fighting styles are.

Eh, they're kinda similar. At least at base. As we see in the tutorial of KH2, Roxas is very similar to KH1 Sora in his fighting style, meanwhile in KH3 it's more akin to Final Form. It should also be noted that he is wielding two keyblades (which I don't even want to think about how Roxas could still be wielding two keyblades since Ventus isn't still in Sora's heart but that's neither here nor there), so they seem much more different there than they otherwise would. I think Roxas is a little more magic based, if his KH2 boss fight is anything to go off of, so he'd probably have some light come out of his attacks, similar to Roy in comparison to Marth, just with light.

Edited by DarthR0xas
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I put a 2nd fighter pass at about 25% likelihood, and a 3rd at about 5%. More than likely these slots were 1) made so that they would have more than they expected they would actually need, just in case, or 2) echo fighters. 1 is more likely to me.

7 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

On the subject of echos in fighter passes, I think it's an important distinction that they only claimed they wouldn't sell Echos. They did not comment on whether Echos might be released as free DLC, or come with a DLC newcomer in the case that they're an echo of that character. Plus, and I know Smash fans would mount this defense, the no echo fighter rule for DLC inclusions was probably written before any decisions were made about future fighter passes. And if they did have echos in future fighter passes, those passes may just end up at lower price points to compensate for their lower value. We don't know what their plan is. We're talking about something that wouldn't be announced for almost another year if it does happen at all.

And everyone needs to keep this in mind.

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1 minute ago, Roland said:

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Oh boy. I mean, for all I know, this could be total BS, but these people are saying what they're saying...

14 more DLC fighters, place your bets.

Yeah, probably best to hold back on the hype. We still have four to get through, that's still as much now in the wake of these rumors as it was before the rumors.

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Isn't it only 36 combos? Including the abilities by themselves without the second slot filled.

I dunno, I know it's seven base abilities, so I figured seven times seven. Whatever the total count is, I don't like quantity over quality arguments, and have always advocated for the Super Star formula in the past. Perhaps an old habit I need to lay to rest. This isn't the mid 2000s where the next mainline Kirby game on consoles gets announced for gamecube and is never heard from again until we finally end up with Return to Dreamland on the Wii. We got our Super Star-esque movesets back. And after eight years of it maybe the time is ripe for some reinvention. That's always a bizarre suggestion to hear, y'know. Since every other Kirby game is a spinoff in terms of gameplay. But the devil is in the details. 

24 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sounds like a neat idea. It would make Kirby more complex, which might offset its ease and simplicity. But let's face it, Kirby isn't just for kiddies, I'm certain more Kirby fans are 40 with a chin that looks like a wet beaver than are 6 years old. Plus they could always add a "Simple Mode" for novices where the complexities were removed.

We shave. When we need to go out in to the real world. Simple mode, eh. Yoshi's Wooly World vibes. Mario Odyssey also has it's Assist Mode. And New Super Mario Bros games will straight up play the game for you if you're having trouble. Nintendo does seek to please all experience levels of players these days.

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I really REALLY hope this is true. Getting that many more characters would be freaking awesome! It keeps open my dreams of Crash Bandicoot, plus I'm positive there's several first-party Nintendo characters they could use that would really make fans happy.

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