FE 11's Take on Storytelling/Less is More

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

As far as world building is concerned less is definitely more.

I wouldn't call it "less is more", unless you're forcefeeding it directly all into the player's face with exposition dumps so frequently and long you forget a bunch in them and it detracts from the narrative's flow.

It's more "a story can make do with less world building" without it compromising things in general. You don't get that much in payoff for adding more beyond a certain point, even though there are junkies for whom of world building can't be enough (see some Game of Thrones/A Song of Fire and Ice fans it sounds like, G.R.R. Martin has written an entire history book of his fictional world and is planning a second one).

 

I do think I fall into the camp that likes plentiful world building, I was more critical I think with the absence of depth to Binding Blade's world, than the lack of personality in the plot, even if both were issues. And my fanfict stuff has rarely been about characters, and more about the world.

 

1 hour ago, JimmyBeans said:

I agree with the majority of this, and it's also why I used Dark Souls as an example of story telling done right earlier. I wouldn't mind more world building if they found creative ways to tell us rather than just telling us.

 

First, no mention of Metroid Prime = failure. Chozo Lore, Space Pirate Logs, and scans of the natural environment do add up to saying a lot in MP1, and that game has practically zilch in actual narrative. No scanning, no idea what is with the game (nor would you even know how to get to the final boss). Not to say FE could do this though, the format of FE doesn't permit it. SoV's might, but not a single other game. World building all needs to be in a lore library or spoken elsewhere in every other game.

Second, whilst I fall squarely into the Tellius camp, I will add there is another subtle way by which Shadow Dragon does world-build, and I found interesting. That being chapter-by-chapter breakdown of who you're fighting. My analysis going by each chapter:

Spoiler

SD Prologue: Gra

Chapter 1- Bandits

Chapter 2- Bandits plus Grust contingent

Chapter 3- Bandits 

Chapter 4- Grust

Chapter 5- Macedon

Chapter 6- Macedon

Chapter 7x- Bandits

Chapter 7- Macedon

Chapter 8- Grust

Chapter 9- Pyrathi

Chapter 10- Macedon

Chapter 11- Grust + 2 Macedonian Pegasus Knights

Chapter 12- Dolhr

Chapter 12x- Grust + Horace's Archaneans (which really aren't your enemy) + 1 Dolhrian Manakete

Chapter 13- Grust

Chapter 14- Gra + Macedonian Pegasus Knights

Chapter 15- Khadein + Macedonian Dracoknights

Chapter 16- Grust + Macedonian Dracoknights

Chapter 17- Dolhr

Chapter 17x- Grust + 3 Dolhrian Manaketes

Chapter 18- Grust

Chapter 19- Khadein (I think it says thieves, but they're serving Gharnef- this is the Fane of Raman/Brainwashed Tiki chapter)

Chapter 20- Grust

Chapter 20x- Grust + 2 Dolhrian Manaketes

Chapter 21- Macedon

Chapter 22- Macedon

Chapter 23- Khadein

Chapter 24- Dolhr

Chapter 24x- Keepers

Final Chapter- Dolhr

Total # of Chapters per Enemy Country:

Spoiler

Bandits/Other- 6, and countless unaffliated Thieves set to plunder treasure and villages.

Gra- 1 (not counting the SD Prologue)

Grust- 10 (not counting the tiny Chapter 2 contingent)

Macedon- 6 as the primary enemy, and an additional 4 where they provide supplementary fliers for the main enemy.

Khadein aka Gharnef's Goons- 3

Dolhr- 4 fights where they are the primary enemy, and 3 of the new Gaiden chapters have them field a couple supplementary Manaketes. Given their rarity and sheer power and lore, lending even one Manakete should be taken as a serious contribution.

What does this all say? A bit actually.

• Gra is just utterly pathetic, it fights you once outside of the Prologue, only in its self-defense. This is reinforced in the War of Heroes, Gra is forced to field its army veterans in defense of occupied Altea, but it only has enough to fill the green north of Est's prison and south of Marth's starting position, the rest of the map and Castle Altea's interior are Archanean. The Gra Bastion is distinctly divided between elite Archaneans and level 1 Gra greenhorns desperately drafted. This is despite the fact it only fought once in the War of Shadows. Guess this says something about how fertile the country is that it can't fight more (although since Altea is always a good guy, we can't tell how much if at all it is more productive territory).
• Grust has the most primary deployments in the entire game, makes sense, it is the most militarily-oriented of Archanea's countries.
• Macedon is fought the second most, yet you do find its Pegasus or Dracoes in a few additional chapters, indicative of how valuable their flight abilities are. 
• Khadein is barely fought, makes sense given it is mostly mages. All Gharnef defends is Khadein itself, Thabes, and the Fane where Tiki is.
• Dolhr got some more screentime with SD, which is good for it if only you got to see it without going Aztec. Of the four battles sans gaidens where they appear, it's the final two chapters set in Dolhr- self defense, and the interiors but not exteriors (Grust handles those) of Pales and Castle Altea. Manaketes are a limited resource and Dolhr is a barren land, and while it lacks the might to enforce its rule by itself, Dolhr does distinctly rule from the various capitals.

 

5 hours ago, eclipse said:

I like SD's style, but that's because I don't need every single thing spelled out for me to enjoy a story - if anything, I prefer having a few things left to my imagination.  I think I'm a minority, though.

There is still room in Tellius though for the mind to be free to imagine, it is not that GRR Martin history book I mentioned earlier, even if it is the most world-built of FE continents it could be said. And the same possibility for every other game.

Different people though have different minimums for their creativity to go wild. Some can work with the Great Plains- marked by only a few trees as guideposts around which the imagination can spin up its magic. Others could use a few more trees, say the Alps approaching the limit for tree growth, to achieve the same.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

@Interdimensional Observer Yeah its mentioned in lore that both Gra and Altea is relatively small. They had a close alliance for a long while which compensates their deficiency

 

On a related note, you know much as Shadow Dragon is "minimal" i recently learned they removed Cartas reference from FE12 and it confused me to no end

Cartas is really the founder era's answer to Marth. The guy with Charisma and position who gathered everyone under the same banner, led the army against Medeus, made a visit to the last survivor of Archanea, delegated to hold the Fire Emblem as the hope of the people? Thats all Cartas. Its often forgotten since Anri ended up become a larger than life figure, but Cartas formed the foundation of Archanea's Kingdoms too, iirc being partially responsible for assisting the creation of Grust and Macedon.

Its a shame this kind of figure didn't have more things explored of him, and in fact you'd probably think he's an unworthy person over Anri when you didn't know the details.

[Emperor Hardin]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Gra is just utterly pathetic, it fights you once outside of the Prologue, only in its self-defense. This is reinforced in the War of Heroes, Gra is forced to field its army veterans in defense of occupied Altea, but it only has enough to fill the green north of Est's prison and south of Marth's starting position, the rest of the map and Castle Altea's interior are Archanean. The Gra Bastion is distinctly divided between elite Archaneans and level 1 Gra greenhorns desperately drafted. This is despite the fact it only fought once in the War of Shadows. Guess this says something about how fertile the country is that it can't fight more (although since Altea is always a good guy, we can't tell how much if at all it is more productive territory).

Its kinda fitting that Gra, the weakest and most under utilized enemy nation, is represented by the Soldier class, which particularly in the DS games is an underutilized and weak class.

Altea is equally small, but its recent leaders made its knights something to be respected.

[Etrurian emperor]

11 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

On a related note, you know much as Shadow Dragon is "minimal" i recently learned they removed Cartas reference from FE12 and it confused me to no end

Cartas is really the founder era's answer to Marth. The guy with Charisma and position who gathered everyone under the same banner, led the army against Medeus, made a visit to the last survivor of Archanea, delegated to hold the Fire Emblem as the hope of the people? Thats all Cartas. Its often forgotten since Anri ended up become a larger than life figure, but Cartas formed the foundation of Archanea's Kingdoms too, iirc being partially responsible for assisting the creation of Grust and Macedon.

Actually I always thought Cartas was more of an answer to Hardin. Both are successful war leaders who sought out the Archanean princess but just weren't good enough to fully defeat Medeus without some blue haired hero with a falchion turning up. Despite being overshadowed by the hero both do end up getting the girl and becoming emperor of Archenea through marriage. 

Quote

I already gave him examples but he hasn't responded to them yet and repeated what I argued against him again so I didn't want to copy paste, still what I did was lazy. My bad.

I'll get to it, but your post is kinda loooong. You're not the only one being lazy here 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

14 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Actually I always thought Cartas was more of an answer to Hardin. Both are successful war leaders who sought out the Archanean princess but just weren't good enough to fully defeat Medeus without some blue haired hero with a falchion turning up. Despite being overshadowed by the hero both do end up getting the girl and becoming emperor of Archenea through marriage. 

I'll get to it, but your post is kinda loooong. You're not the only one being lazy here 

yeah i get that the obvious parallel is Hardin, but the consideration is if you use Marth-Hardin as the comparison, instead of Camus who lets be fucking honest is irrelevant in the bigger picture(he's a grust guy), both Marth and Hardin shares parallel to Cartas, and the way i see it Marth is the complete package by being the larger than life savior Hero that is Anri, with the ability to gather allies under his banner of Cartas

In general i feel its not exactly a 1:1 answer and more how the event in current times had parallel that mostly is filled by Marth and Hardin. Since after all, Cartas, by all means is a successful hero, while Hardin ended up not being one even if its outside his control

Edited March 27, 2019 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Interdimensional Observer]

11 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Its kinda fitting that Gra, the weakest and most under utilized enemy nation, is represented by the Soldier class, which particularly in the DS games is an underutilized and weak class.

Altea is equally small, but its recent leaders made its knights something to be respected.

That is another good way to imagine it. Gra having possible parity with Altea, but it just has much worse leadership that squanders it completely, and no Anri bloodline & Falchion.

 

 

And speaking of snipped lines, I distinctly recall Mystery Book 1 adding to the battle outside Dolhr a line where Marth asks why Medeus is too weak to leave Dolhr Keep, and Malladus responds Gotoh said it had something to do with a "Binding Shield", but then says they don't have the time to ponder more on this. I get why Mystery added the line and SD dropped it, it's a little setup for Book 2 and SD has no Book 2 (even if NM ended up being the next game), but I wish they had kept it. 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

50 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That is another good way to imagine it. Gra having possible parity with Altea, but it just has much worse leadership that squanders it completely, and no Anri bloodline & Falchion.

 

 

And speaking of snipped lines, I distinctly recall Mystery Book 1 adding to the battle outside Dolhr a line where Marth asks why Medeus is too weak to leave Dolhr Keep, and Malladus responds Gotoh said it had something to do with a "Binding Shield", but then says they don't have the time to ponder more on this. I get why Mystery added the line and SD dropped it, it's a little setup for Book 2 and SD has no Book 2 (even if NM ended up being the next game), but I wish they had kept it. 

Its actually not imagine in this one, they outright tell us Altea and Gra have kept a good relationship in an alliance kind of way, with the betrayal of Jiol being a surprise break out that is attributed towards Altea's defeat.

 

Its actually fairly amazing, to their credit that they manage to keep a good relationship with each other for a hundred year or so(between Anri's era to Marth's era its around 100 years), since the situation that caused the original kingdom of Altea to broke into Altea and Gra is a petty inheritance quarell.

 

Remember by all means NEITHER of the Gra and Altea do have Anri's bloodline

Edited March 27, 2019 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Its actually fairly amazing, to their credit that they manage to keep a good relationship with each other for a hundred year or so(between Anri's era to Marth's era its around 100 years), since the situation that caused the original kingdom of Altea to broke into Altea and Gra is a petty inheritance quarell.

 

Remember by all means NEITHER of the Gra and Altea do have Anri's bloodline

I'd like to think when they speak of good relationships, they're always casting it in rosier terms than it historically was. I'd think the immediate the break would render the relationship cold between each other for a while, before the two elements on each side started to push for reconciliation. Historically from what little I'm aware, it takes a few decades to heal from breakups before becoming allies. 

As for Anri's bloodline, not direct descent of course. Although if Gotoh put a blood seal on Falchion's use when Anri took it, which I thought I heard suggested, did Marcellus just so happen to be close enough genetically to not be blocked out? Or did Gotoh alter the seal later?

Yet I wonder exactly what the inheritance dispute was. Who if not Anri's brother in the absence of children would be considered for the throne? That is a very strong claim to have to counter. Did Anri have another brother or a sister who married nobleman? Or was it a close friend of Anri's who disputed Marcellus's claim? Or was it just some petty nobleman who hated Marcellus who rebelled? I'd be inclined to say one of the latter two possibilities, since another Anri sibling I'd think would be named. It'd also possibly leave the door open to Sheena using Falchion.

[JimmyBeans]

On 3/26/2019 at 4:20 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

We also learn the Sable order was ancient and Grust has always a comparatively less hostile relationship with the Manaketes, which may explain why they and Dolhr work so well together.

I really liked the narration and bits in Shadow Dragon that were added myself. I also understand the game was made on a lower budget due to poor overseas sales of the very expensive Tellius games.

That's a good point, but it makes you wonder what the relations between Macedon and Dohlr have been like given that fe12 tells us of how Lote rebelled from being their slaves and formed a country right next to them. Especially since they are so close together, the game doesn't give us a lot besides that it seemed Michalis' father wasn't planning on allying with them because they didn't enter the alliance until Michalis took the throne, and we know why Michalis fought with them, because he wanted Macedon to be strong and take down the "arrogant" Archanea.

Which also asks if Archanea was a nice and pacifist country before the enemy alliance steamrolled it, or if they were more strict rulers.
 

On 3/26/2019 at 6:17 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

First, no mention of Metroid Prime = failure. Chozo Lore, Space Pirate Logs, and scans of the natural environment do add up to saying a lot in MP1, and that game has practically zilch in actual narrative. No scanning, no idea what is with the game (nor would you even know how to get to the final boss). Not to say FE could do this though, the format of FE doesn't permit it. SoV's might, but not a single other game. World building all needs to be in a lore library or spoken elsewhere in every other game.

 

Second, whilst I fall squarely into the Tellius camp, I will add there is another subtle way by which Shadow Dragon does world-build, and I found interesting. That being chapter-by-chapter breakdown of who you're fighting. My analysis going by each chapter:

  Reveal hidden contents

SD Prologue: Gra

Chapter 1- Bandits

Chapter 2- Bandits plus Grust contingent

Chapter 3- Bandits 

Chapter 4- Grust

Chapter 5- Macedon

Chapter 6- Macedon

Chapter 7x- Bandits

Chapter 7- Macedon

Chapter 8- Grust

Chapter 9- Pyrathi

Chapter 10- Macedon

Chapter 11- Grust + 2 Macedonian Pegasus Knights

Chapter 12- Dolhr

Chapter 12x- Grust + Horace's Archaneans (which really aren't your enemy) + 1 Dolhrian Manakete

Chapter 13- Grust

Chapter 14- Gra + Macedonian Pegasus Knights

Chapter 15- Khadein + Macedonian Dracoknights

Chapter 16- Grust + Macedonian Dracoknights

Chapter 17- Dolhr

Chapter 17x- Grust + 3 Dolhrian Manaketes

Chapter 18- Grust

Chapter 19- Khadein (I think it says thieves, but they're serving Gharnef- this is the Fane of Raman/Brainwashed Tiki chapter)

Chapter 20- Grust

Chapter 20x- Grust + 2 Dolhrian Manaketes

Chapter 21- Macedon

Chapter 22- Macedon

Chapter 23- Khadein

Chapter 24- Dolhr

Chapter 24x- Keepers

Final Chapter- Dolhr

Total # of Chapters per Enemy Country:

  Reveal hidden contents

Bandits/Other- 6, and countless unaffliated Thieves set to plunder treasure and villages.

Gra- 1 (not counting the SD Prologue)

Grust- 10 (not counting the tiny Chapter 2 contingent)

Macedon- 6 as the primary enemy, and an additional 4 where they provide supplementary fliers for the main enemy.

Khadein aka Gharnef's Goons- 3

Dolhr- 4 fights where they are the primary enemy, and 3 of the new Gaiden chapters have them field a couple supplementary Manaketes. Given their rarity and sheer power and lore, lending even one Manakete should be taken as a serious contribution.

What does this all say? A bit actually.

• Gra is just utterly pathetic, it fights you once outside of the Prologue, only in its self-defense. This is reinforced in the War of Heroes, Gra is forced to field its army veterans in defense of occupied Altea, but it only has enough to fill the green north of Est's prison and south of Marth's starting position, the rest of the map and Castle Altea's interior are Archanean. The Gra Bastion is distinctly divided between elite Archaneans and level 1 Gra greenhorns desperately drafted. This is despite the fact it only fought once in the War of Shadows. Guess this says something about how fertile the country is that it can't fight more (although since Altea is always a good guy, we can't tell how much if at all it is more productive territory).
• Grust has the most primary deployments in the entire game, makes sense, it is the most militarily-oriented of Archanea's countries.
• Macedon is fought the second most, yet you do find its Pegasus or Dracoes in a few additional chapters, indicative of how valuable their flight abilities are. 
• Khadein is barely fought, makes sense given it is mostly mages. All Gharnef defends is Khadein itself, Thabes, and the Fane where Tiki is.
• Dolhr got some more screentime with SD, which is good for it if only you got to see it without going Aztec. Of the four battles sans gaidens where they appear, it's the final two chapters set in Dolhr- self defense, and the interiors but not exteriors (Grust handles those) of Pales and Castle Altea. Manaketes are a limited resource and Dolhr is a barren land, and while it lacks the might to enforce its rule by itself, Dolhr does distinctly rule from the various capitals.

Underlined: Another great example, they way the scans are worded also gave some mystery and fear as you discovered so much stuff that was unknown to the database Samus was using.

Bold: This is also reinforced by King Jiol's conversation with one of his random soldiers at the beginning of his level in SD.

Spoiler

 

 

Enemy Solider:
“King Jiol, they’re ‘ere! The League is outside the Bastion!”

Jiol:
“League? How dare you call them that! I see naught but a prince of ghosts and his pack of rebels.”

Enemy Solider:
“B-beggin’ your pardon, sire, but everybody calls ’em the League now. Altea and Aurelis and Akaneia…The League of A’s, you might say!”

Jiol:
“Shut up, you idiot! Hmmm…So the princeling has returned. And he leads all the might of Akaneia, with the Fire Emblem in hand…Did you send to Doluna for reinforcements like I asked?”

Enemy Solider:
“Of course, sire. Medon’s pegasus knights are on their way.”

Jiol:
“Pegasus knights?! How am I supposed to stop the Lea- those REBELS with a handful of…of winged ponies! Send another messenger! Tell them we need Camus’s Sable Order, or…or Michalis’s Dragoons! Blast…I deserve the same protection as the rest of the Empire! Betraying Altean was Gharnef’s idea! Let…let him fight the brat! Don’t just stand there, DO something! I don’t want to die!”

 

This is perhaps the only boss in the game who doesn't display "confidence" in his/armies ability to handle the League, showing his weakness as king, and the weakness of his country, perhaps this weakness was part of the reason he was so easily convinced and pressured by Medues/Gharnef to betray Altea who had been a close ally for supposedly many, many years.

10 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'll get to it, but your post is kinda loooong. You're not the only one being lazy here 

Don't worry about it I was just in a typing mood haha, and I'm sorry if I sounded annoyed when I typed that I honestly wanted that to sound as least aggressive as possible.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd like to think when they speak of good relationships, they're always casting it in rosier terms than it historically was. I'd think the immediate the break would render the relationship cold between each other for a while, before the two elements on each side started to push for reconciliation. Historically from what little I'm aware, it takes a few decades to heal from breakups before becoming allies. 

As for Anri's bloodline, not direct descent of course. Although if Gotoh put a blood seal on Falchion's use when Anri took it, which I thought I heard suggested, did Marcellus just so happen to be close enough genetically to not be blocked out? Or did Gotoh alter the seal later?

Yet I wonder exactly what the inheritance dispute was. Who if not Anri's brother in the absence of children would be considered for the throne? That is a very strong claim to have to counter. Did Anri have another brother or a sister who married nobleman? Or was it a close friend of Anri's who disputed Marcellus's claim? Or was it just some petty nobleman who hated Marcellus who rebelled? I'd be inclined to say one of the latter two possibilities, since another Anri sibling I'd think would be named. It'd also possibly leave the door open to Sheena using Falchion.

Yeah what make me always wonder is if the major minor holy blood stuff is derived from how Kaga forgetting to consider that if its Anri's Bloodline, then Marth ISNT Anri's bloodline, and then Sheena/Jiol should have been able to. IIRC its been said that Elice technically can use Falchion in lore but eh, and she have Aum anyway

From what i looked up quickly, apparently theres one more unnamed brother.that become Gra's ruler

[Emperor Hardin]

59 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

That's a good point, but it makes you wonder what the relations between Macedon and Dohlr have been like given that fe12 tells us of how Lote rebelled from being their slaves and formed a country right next to them. Especially since they are so close together, the game doesn't give us a lot besides that it seemed Michalis' father wasn't planning on allying with them because they didn't enter the alliance until Michalis took the throne, and we know why Michalis fought with them, because he wanted Macedon to be strong and take down the "arrogant" Archanea.

Which also asks if Archanea was a nice and pacifist country before the enemy alliance steamrolled it, or if they were more strict rulers.

I imagine many or perhaps even most of the Macedon's army planned their allegiance with Dolhr to be temporary, much like Michelins himself. We don't see Dolhr loyalists like Larissa in Macedon.

I remember reading on one of the developer notes posted on this site, Archanea under Nyna's father had been treating Macedon poorly. Camus also mentions in BS FE, that while treated his family nicely, he allowed everything outside the palace to suffer, hence stuff like Knorda Market not being cracked down.

EDIT: Found it.

10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That is another good way to imagine it. Gra having possible parity with Altea, but it just has much worse leadership that squanders it completely, and no Anri bloodline & Falchion.

I believe one of Kaga's timelines mentions Jiol making poor use of Gra's money. As for Altea, it is said that Cornelius strengthen the military.

10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And speaking of snipped lines, I distinctly recall Mystery Book 1 adding to the battle outside Dolhr a line where Marth asks why Medeus is too weak to leave Dolhr Keep, and Malladus responds Gotoh said it had something to do with a "Binding Shield", but then says they don't have the time to ponder more on this. I get why Mystery added the line and SD dropped it, it's a little setup for Book 2 and SD has no Book 2 (even if NM ended up being the next game), but I wish they had kept it.

Shadow Dragon mentions Medeus's return isn't complete and that he can't assume dragon form outside the keep, but doesn't mention the reason being the Binding Shield.

Maybe Dolhr's keep was originally something Medeus was supposed to use for his job under Naga and thats why he still assume dragon form when weakened?

Edited March 28, 2019 by Emperor Hardin

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/26/2019 at 2:59 AM, JimmyBeans said:

I'd say Conquest had the best unit balance out of any FE game

I like Fates and all, but I call bullshit on this - on one end, you have Camilla, who's obviously head and shoulders above most of the cast, though considering she joins in chapter 10, that might have been intentional. On the other, you have Arthur, Charlotte, and Nyx, aka the unholy trinity, who are really bad compared to everyone else.

[Flere210]

34 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I like Fates and all, but I call bullshit on this - on one end, you have Camilla, who's obviously head and shoulders above most of the cast, though considering she joins in chapter 10, that might have been intentional. On the other, you have Arthur, Charlotte, and Nyx, aka the unholy trinity, who are really bad compared to everyone else.

Well chapter 10 is still 10 chapters after the average Jeigan that is as dominitang as her. And tge weakling trio are far more salvageable than the worst units in many other games. Conquest being one of the most balanced despite the outliers that you mentioned and a few more really tell how fucked up is the unit balance in your average Fire emblem.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Well chapter 10 is still 10 chapters after the average Jeigan that is as dominitang as her. And tge weakling trio are far more salvageable than the worst units in many other games. Conquest being one of the most balanced despite the outliers that you mentioned and a few more really tell how fucked up is the unit balance in your average Fire emblem.

This is ignoring that Fates isn't structured like other FE games. thanks to the multiple stories thing. Also, you give those three far too much credit. About the only units I could see them as easier to raise than are Meg and Lyre, themselves part of an unholy trinity, as well as Wendy, who's probably the worst unit in the entire franchise. Also, considering that Camilla comes as early as she does, what reason would I have to bother with Arthur or Charlotte unless I wanted to make things harder on myself?

Edited March 29, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[JimmyBeans]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I like Fates and all, but I call bullshit on this - on one end, you have Camilla, who's obviously head and shoulders above most of the cast, though considering she joins in chapter 10, that might have been intentional. On the other, you have Arthur, Charlotte, and Nyx, aka the unholy trinity, who are really bad compared to everyone else.

Well if that's the case what game do you consider to have better balance than conquest? I consider it that way because it has the least amount of unusable units out of any FE in my mind, which can be attributed to the fact that characters growths are specialized to give them identities. Nyx isn't winning any rewards but if you train her 9 times out of 10 she is going to have a lot of magic, decent speed, and unable to break 30 hp on her own, which is why she has the glass cannon identity and she can kill 1 range slower enemies pretty consistently. 

There is an optimal way to play conquest and the best units to use but that can be said about any FE game, but the advantage conquest has is that almost every unit has a unique niche that can warrant using them, and while some are not needed it does it better than every FE game in my mind.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

Well if that's the case what game do you consider to have better balance than conquest? I consider it that way because it has the least amount of unusable units out of any FE in my mind, which can be attributed to the fact that characters growths are specialized to give them identities. Nyx isn't winning any rewards but if you train her 9 times out of 10 she is going to have a lot of magic, decent speed, and unable to break 30 hp on her own, which is why she has the glass cannon identity and she can kill 1 range slower enemies pretty consistently. 

There is an optimal way to play conquest and the best units to use but that can be said about any FE game, but the advantage conquest has is that almost every unit has a unique niche that can warrant using them, and while some are not needed it does it better than every FE game in my mind.

Easily Mystery of the Emblem. Gaiden/SoV might also be better balanced than Conquest too. Both have no units that stand out as either being outright unusable or being clearly more trouble to work with than they're worth, which I cannot say of Conquest. As for Nyx, sure, she's a glass cannon, but she's not a RELIABLE glass cannon because her hit rate (and everything else, for that matter) is so low.

I say again, how in the name of Duma am I supposed to use Arthur, Charlotte and Nyx, who have nothing to offer that makes up for how hard they are to use??? Use them as pair up fodder (which I don't count as a use, by the way)???

Edited March 30, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Eltosian Kadath]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I say again, how in the name of Duma am I supposed to use Arthur, Charlotte and Nyx, who have nothing to offer that makes up for how hard they are to use??? Use them as pair up fodder (which I don't count as a use, by the way)???

I think you may be undervaluing the +20 crit rate of the Berserker class. If may be hard to get them to that point, but a trained Berserker is a terrifying, and both Arthur and Charlotte work well in that class. Arthur having high skill growth combined with a personal skill that removes the crit dodge of anything below 30 luck lets him reliably hit stupidly large crit rates, while Charlottes higher speed lets her double a lot of foes, and having roughly 50 crit isn't hard to accomplish (and against female bosses she can hit ludicrous numbers, like a 100% crit rate against Hinoka is possible with the right support and a nearby Arthur to drop her crit avoid).

As for hit rates there are a lot of options in Conquest to help fix it: Benny's person skill reducing enemy avoid by 10 within 2, Corrins supportive adding an extra 10 hit rate when attack stancing with him, at least 3 units that starts with Heartseeker's ability to drop adjacent enemies avoid by 20, +10 with a basic attack stance and roughly half the supports in the game able to drive this higher, plus both Tomes and Axes have increased hit rate with increases in weapon rank. Put simply if hit rate is something you worry about Conquest gives you a lot of options in how you arrange your actions, and how you build your team to deal with that.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Easily Mystery of the Emblem.

Really? The game that gives you 4 massively under leveled bishops on the last chapter too late to do anything with? The game that gives you cancer man and just 3 chapters latter gives you one of the best units in the game Sirius who surpasses him in every way? The game that introduced the hilariously bad swordsman pretending to be a famous swordsman archetype with Samto, and then gives you the real swordsman Navarre the very next chapter (who has better bases and growths)? That game had a massive diverse cast that lets you use a lot of different and interesting teams, but balanced it was not.

[Shadow Mir]

37 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I think you may be undervaluing the +20 crit rate of the Berserker class. If may be hard to get them to that point, but a trained Berserker is a terrifying, and both Arthur and Charlotte work well in that class. Arthur having high skill growth combined with a personal skill that removes the crit dodge of anything below 30 luck lets him reliably hit stupidly large crit rates, while Charlottes higher speed lets her double a lot of foes, and having roughly 50 crit isn't hard to accomplish (and against female bosses she can hit ludicrous numbers, like a 100% crit rate against Hinoka is possible with the right support and a nearby Arthur to drop her crit avoid).

As for hit rates there are a lot of options in Conquest to help fix it: Benny's person skill reducing enemy avoid by 10 within 2, Corrins supportive adding an extra 10 hit rate when attack stancing with him, at least 3 units that starts with Heartseeker's ability to drop adjacent enemies avoid by 20, +10 with a basic attack stance and roughly half the supports in the game able to drive this higher, plus both Tomes and Axes have increased hit rate with increases in weapon rank. Put simply if hit rate is something you worry about Conquest gives you a lot of options in how you arrange your actions, and how you build your team to deal with that.

And I think you're overvaluing it - what in the name of Anankos will 20 extra crit do for me? Nothing, that's what, because critical hits don't do anything worth a damn for the player. On the other hand, being vulnerable to critical hits is a big no-no, because that means risking frustrating and/or annoying resets. Ergo, Berserkers are volatile, with high risk and little reward. Camilla being a thing means I have even less reason to field Arthur or Charlotte (as if I needed more reason to bench them, because they're worthless, losers, failures, the whole nine yards). Arthur's personal doesn't do jack nor shit, because the majority of enemies don't have anywhere near enough crit evade to make its effect noticeable, especially in the lategame where crit evade nuking silvers are often used by enemies.

37 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Really? The game that gives you 4 massively under leveled bishops on the last chapter too late to do anything with? The game that gives you cancer man and just 3 chapters latter gives you one of the best units in the game Sirius who surpasses him in every way? The game that introduced the hilariously bad swordsman pretending to be a famous swordsman archetype with Samto, and then gives you the real swordsman Navarre the very next chapter (who has better bases and growths)? That game had a massive diverse cast that lets you use a lot of different and interesting teams, but balanced it was not.

Yes, because Star Orb shards are a thing, and eventually the Star Orb itself (those boost growths, in case you don't know). And this is ignoring how hilariously broken stat boosters are (most of the non-HP boosters give something ludicrous like 4 or 5 points to the relevant stat. And this is in a game where stats cap at 20). So yeah, I'd say those units you named are still more viable than Conquest's three stooges.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Eltosian Kadath]

53 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And I think you're overvaluing it - what in the name of Anankos will 20 extra crit do for me? Nothing, that's what, because critical hits don't do anything worth a damn for the player. On the other hand, being vulnerable to critical hits is a big no-no, because that means risking frustrating and/or annoying resets. Ergo, Berserkers are volatile, with high risk and little reward. Camilla being a thing means I have even less reason to field Arthur or Charlotte (as if I needed more reason to bench them, because they're worthless, losers, failures, the whole nine yards). Arthur's personal doesn't do jack nor shit, because the majority of enemies don't have anywhere near enough crit evade to make its effect noticeable, especially in the lategame where crit evade nuking silvers are often used by enemies.

That 20 extra crit is going to get used on each attack stance the Berserker helps with too, and above 50% crit rate killer weapons (or Beruka's axe if you are really digging even deeper for crits) with Berserker strength are murderously large amount of damage even when halved, and easily turn chips into kills. Plus the growth rates and strength cap of Berserkers is nothing to overlook either, it may seem overkill on the attack, but not on the attack stance. I think you are overvaluing the risks associated with their low crit evade. Units with great attack stance potential like that tend to end up in the middle of formations, so unless you aren't killing enough player phase or really messed up your positioning, neither of them should face many enemy phase attacks (unless you want them to), and you control the situation with any player phase attacks. Plus if crit avoid is something you worry about unduly, having Percy fixes any issue with Charlotte, although Arthur would need special attention to really fix, like using bronze to make his attacks and trade swapping to real weapons for attack stances, or a dodge oriented support as well; I suppose you could use those on Charlotte instead of Percy, but he is far easier (and her crit evade might be enough anyway). As for Arthur's personal you are right, its main use is against bosses (which is very niche) and even in the pre-silver weapon part of the game it is severely weakened by its inability to aid in ranged attack stances (one of the better uses of that high crit rate, as a lot of unit's ranged options are mediocre and in need of that extra oomph from a good attack stance). Arthur is far less usable than Charlotte but not as unusable as you make it seem

 

24 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yes, because Star Orb shards are a thing, and eventually the Star Orb itself (those boost growths, in case you don't know). And this is ignoring how hilariously broken stat boosters are (most of the non-HP boosters give something ludicrous like 4 or 5 points to the relevant stat). So yeah, I'd say those units you named are still more viable than Conquest's three stooges.

If you dump numerous stat booster,  ludicrous money on forges, reclassing items, and skill buying, you can also make any of the Conquest crew into more viable units. Those resources in Conquest and those that make units more viable in Mystery of the Emblem could be used better elsewhere (and before you start talking about trading star orb shards or more likely the star orb between units just before level ups I will point out how you would then be forced to keep your flyers and cav going the same pace as an armour unit you want to be viable). Plus none of that will fix the problem with the four bishop with the most useless join time in the entire series.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That 20 extra crit is going to get used on each attack stance the Berserker helps with too, and above 50% crit rate killer weapons (or Beruka's axe if you are really digging even deeper for crits) with Berserker strength are murderously large amount of damage even when halved, and easily turn chips into kills. Plus the growth rates and strength cap of Berserkers is nothing to overlook either, it may seem overkill on the attack, but not on the attack stance. I think you are overvaluing the risks associated with their low crit evade. Units with great attack stance potential like that tend to end up in the middle of formations, so unless you aren't killing enough player phase or really messed up your positioning, neither of them should face many enemy phase attacks (unless you want them to), and you control the situation with any player phase attacks. Plus if crit avoid is something you worry about unduly, having Percy fixes any issue with Charlotte, although Arthur would need special attention to really fix, like using bronze to make his attacks and trade swapping to real weapons for attack stances, or a dodge oriented support as well; I suppose you could use those on Charlotte instead of Percy, but he is far easier (and her crit evade might be enough anyway). As for Arthur's personal you are right, its main use is against bosses (which is very niche) and even in the pre-silver weapon part of the game it is severely weakened by its inability to aid in ranged attack stances (one of the better uses of that high crit rate, as a lot of unit's ranged options are mediocre and in need of that extra oomph from a good attack stance). Arthur is far less usable than Charlotte but not as unusable as you make it seem

Killer weapons? You mean the junk that doesn't have high enough crit rate to make gambling on them worthwhile? I'll use those in games where they're actually worth using, thank you very much. I'll grant, Berserkers can hit hard, but so can others, except those others don't make me risk infuriating resets to take advantage of that - or did you "conveniently" forget that Conquest is not so forgiving? You're understating the risk their low crit evade carries, too - this IS Murphy's Law: The Game, in case you need a refresher. Percy forces me to marry off the biggest liability in the whole damn game just to exist - that ain't a guarantee. Charlotte comes underleveled (level 10 in chapter 13... when unpromoted units are phased out entirely in chapter 18), and has to compere with Camilla for axes - it ain't rocket science to know who loses out here. How in the name of the Spiral Draco would you catch her up? Boo Camp? Arthur's as shitty as axe infantry come, too.

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

If you dump numerous stat booster,  ludicrous money on forges, reclassing items, and skill buying, you can also make any of the Conquest crew into more viable units. Those resources in Conquest and those that make units more viable in Mystery of the Emblem could be used better elsewhere (and before you start talking about trading star orb shards or more likely the star orb between units just before level ups I will point out how you would then be forced to keep your flyers and cav going the same pace as an armour unit you want to be viable). Plus none of that will fix the problem with the four bishop with the most useless join time in the entire series.

My point is - and you seem to have neglected this - Mystery is an infinitely more forgiving game than Conquest is. Also, I would sooner say Renault has the most useless join time since he joins one chapter away from endgame, which hands you a super unit for free..

Edited March 30, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[eclipse]

That's ENOUGH.

This is a thread about SD's story, not unit balance, WTF.

[JimmyBeans]

On 3/27/2019 at 8:11 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

I imagine many or perhaps even most of the Macedon's army planned their allegiance with Dolhr to be temporary, much like Michelins himself. We don't see Dolhr loyalists like Larissa in Macedon.

I remember reading on one of the developer notes posted on this site, Archanea under Nyna's father had been treating Macedon poorly. Camus also mentions in BS FE, that while treated his family nicely, he allowed everything outside the palace to suffer, hence stuff like Knorda Market not being cracked down.

EDIT: Found it.

That's right I forgot about BSFE, and I had never read these dev notes and didn't even know they existed. I was always curious about Archanea because there had to be a bigger reason Michalis and others had such hatred towards them besides them being evil, and the game only shows us Nyna who is obviously really kind. So ya I assumed her dad was, while not evil but, arrogant as Michalis said or slothful.

Also the whole Lena and Michalis thing took me by surprise while on the topic of the dev notes. Does fe11 or fe12 mention or hint at that relationship at all?

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, JimmyBeans said:

Does fe11 or fe12 mention or hint at that relationship at all?

I don't think so, or at least I couldn't find any reference to it while combing the scripts on the main site.

[JimmyBeans]

12 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I don't think so, or at least I couldn't find any reference to it while combing the scripts on the main site.

I thought so. I knew that they didn't have a battle quote in fe11 but I always wondered if they had some reference to it.

[Emperor Hardin]

On 3/30/2019 at 11:43 PM, JimmyBeans said:

That's right I forgot about BSFE, and I had never read these dev notes and didn't even know they existed. I was always curious about Archanea because there had to be a bigger reason Michalis and others had such hatred towards them besides them being evil, and the game only shows us Nyna who is obviously really kind. So ya I assumed her dad was, while not evil but, arrogant as Michalis said or slothful.

Also the whole Lena and Michalis thing took me by surprise while on the topic of the dev notes. Does fe11 or fe12 mention or hint at that relationship at all?

Matthis mentions in his recruitment in the FE3 translation.

Machis:
After you fled from Prince Misheil, Macedonia became more and more ruthless.
The prince despised me, so he forced me to join the army and fight here.
I detest fighting, but if I don’t cooperate, they’ll execute me.
I don’t really have a choice.

I thought there was a mention it in Shadow Dragon, but I can't find it on the script here.