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TheNiddo

Book 1 5*s will still be summonable on most focus circles

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I know we have a general FEH channel topic but it seems like 75% of the population missed the second half of this particular announcement and instantly closed the video to type up angry replies on the internet. 

Lets clear this up shall we: based on what was said in the video, the Book 1 5*s are only removed from summoning circles with new heroes. If the banner does not have new heroes or new seasonal units, you can get Book 1 5*s even if they aren't the focus like you can on any summoning circle right now

Why do this? Because aiming for an awesome new character and getting pity broken by a Mist or Jaffar or Lyn sucks. If I'm getting pity broken at least give me like Sigurd or somebody with decent fodder. Only a handful of Book 1 5*s have skills worth getting excited over still (Hector and Takumi easily come to mind... beyond that I'm starting to struggle). 

Why weren't they dumped into the 3-4* pool? Probably to try to prevent it from getting even more bloated. Its kinda bloated. Also probably don't want Hector and Takumi in the easy to get range.

Why didn't they do something to unbloat the 3-4* pool? Not a clue, feel free to leave them feedback on it. If you're going to leave feedback about this change in general make sure you actually understand what the change actually is. 

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5 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Also probably don't want Hector and Takumi in the easy to get range.

I doubt reasonable people were asking for this. Getting Hector isn't being pity broken. It's something to celebrate because the hero still holds up and has great fodder.

 

When people were talking about demotion candidates, most were asking specifically for actually outdated units like Lucina, Azura, Mist, Jaffar, Lyn, Karel, etc. who have no place being 5 star exclusive units to be demoted. 

 

As for bloating the 3-4 star pool, that flat out doesn't matter. A majority of obtained units will come from this range, so a bloated 3-4 star pool is a good thing. 

 

What they've done is effectively taking a greatsword to something which required a scalpel. 

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15 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Lets clear this up shall we: based on what was said in the video, the Book 1 5*s are only removed from summoning circles with new heroes. If the banner does not have new heroes or new seasonal units, you can get Book 1 5*s even if they aren't the focus like you can on any summoning circle right now

The problem is that most people summon on these banners. Unless a specific character fits you fancy, people only free summon on those "skill banner". So for most of the players, they are kinda removed from the game.

15 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Why do this? Because aiming for an awesome new character and getting pity broken by a Mist or Jaffar or Lyn sucks. If I'm getting pity broken at least give me like Sigurd or somebody with decent fodder. 

I agree on that. Also Sigurd is gone too by the way.

15 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Why weren't they dumped into the 3-4* pool? Probably to try to prevent it from getting even more bloated. Its kinda bloated. Also probably don't want Hector and Takumi in the easy to get range.

Except there's a very big counter argument: there are many 3 stars or 4 stars that have 5 star locked skills. You could easily get Hector or Takumi to 4 stars, make their A skill five stars locked. Yes I guess they would be more accessable to anyone, but the pool of colors is already large. For example, I've been playing for months and I still don't have a single male Morgan. Plus you would have to pay a huge amount of feathers and SP for one skill.

 

15 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Why didn't they do something to unbloat the 3-4* pool? Not a clue

Come on, that's fucking obvious. They didn't want to do the good thing and instead got greedy. Or it's a band-aid/half-backed solution.

Edited by Nym

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I'm annoyed by it because it's such a nothing solution.  It's sweeping the problem under the rug and trying to convince the playerbase that it's fixed, or even all that improved.  Wonderful that we don't have to be pitybroken by the likes of Lyn, Luke, or Mist on new hero/special banners.  But as a trade-off, we don't get to be pitybroken by Hector, Takumi, CYL Ike, Alm, Faye, Genny, Amelia, and probably some other good ones I'm missing.  It's funny you list Sigurd as an example of someone you'd like to be pity broken by, considering he's among the Heroes removed. 

Then on any other banner, there's no change whatsoever.    

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I don't have too much of a problem with it.

In a way, it makes decisions for New Hero banners easier. If you're the type who went and drew on banners not caring about the focuses but to see if you could get anything else, now it's easier to make a decision. If you truly don't care for New Heroes and want a Gen 1 5*, you can continue saving for that occasion.

Now one thing I'll be curious about is if we see an increase in sub banners focusing on Gen 1 5*'s to make up for it.

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8 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I doubt reasonable people were asking for this. Getting Hector isn't being pity broken. It's something to celebrate because the hero still holds up and has great fodder.

 

When people were talking about demotion candidates, most were asking specifically for actually outdated units like Lucina, Azura, Mist, Jaffar, Lyn, Karel, etc. who have no place being 5 star exclusive units to be demoted. 

 

As for bloating the 3-4 star pool, that flat out doesn't matter. A majority of obtained units will come from this range, so a bloated 3-4 star pool is a good thing. 

 

What they've done is effectively taking a greatsword to something which required a scalpel. 

I never considered 3-4* bloat to be a problem that needed fixed.  If people are worried about not getting good fodder, they should bring back the fodder banners they had for a few months last year, then abandoned for unknown reasons.

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Also, when people complain about bloat in the 3-4 star pool, they're usually talking specifically about low value 3-4 star units like Bartre, Raigh, etc. which have no worthwhile fodder and aren't especially great units. What they wouldn't be complaining about is getting such enticing (but not 5 star worthy) heroes such as Lucina or Jaffar. The issue of 3-4 star bloat has nothing to do with demotions. The demoted units aren't the ones bloating the pool. The original 3-4 star heroes are the ones bloating the pool. 

Edited by Etheus

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Personally, I find getting the same 3-4 star units all the time to be far more annoying. My issue with removing the old 5-stars is more that there's absolutely no reason for them to stay 5-star in the first place. The majority of them are outdated and have really outdated fodder, but not everyone has them because they're so rare and had only become rarer with time. Meanwhile, the old 3-4 stars have been around so long that players who've been around since launch will most likely have collected most if not all of the lower rarity launch units. That's the other problem with summoning: a stale 3-4 star pool. I would've much rather that these guys be removed and put into a pool of their own while the less valuable launch 5-stars were demoted to 3-4 stars, or at least 4-stars. This is just a baffling solution that I can only take the cynical route of "IS being greedy again".

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35 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Lets clear this up shall we: based on what was said in the video, the Book 1 5*s are only removed from summoning circles with new heroes. If the banner does not have new heroes or new seasonal units, you can get Book 1 5*s even if they aren't the focus like you can on any summoning circle right now

In other words, they are getting yeeted to banners that don't matter. It would've been way easier to just demote them but nah, IS had to get scummy.

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10 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I never considered 3-4* bloat to be a problem that needed fixed.  If people are worried about not getting good fodder, they should bring back the fodder banners they had for a few months last year, then abandoned for unknown reasons.

I always hoped they would increase the 4* summon rate on 3-4* heroes who are appearing as 5*s on a given banner, ie: a banner with Klein also increases his 3-4* chance. That'd be a nice way to go for specific fodder on a regular basis, but they'd never do something that accommodating.

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7 minutes ago, Johann said:

I always hoped they would increase the 4* summon rate on 3-4* heroes who are appearing as 5*s on a given banner, ie: a banner with Klein also increases his 3-4* chance. That'd be a nice way to go for specific fodder on a regular basis, but they'd never do something that accommodating.

They did do that for the fodder banners with increased 4* chance, back when IS made the occasional good decision.

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From what I’ve seen so far, many people are soiling their diapers over summoning pool change. It’s not THAT bad. They could’ve just done stuff like instead of having characters like Raigh or Serra at 3* and 4* rarity, just sticking them to 3* rarity. 

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This change might have been presented as a great compromise between what players want and what IS' bank accounts want if they announced that these exiled units will be appearing on more generic banners in the future. That still may be the case, none of us are from the future to confirm that, but this change definitely was presented too quickly for people to disseminate the implications.

In reality, those of us wanting to add OG Lucina to our collection now have odds around 0.0000000000003% of that happening on our freebie summons compared to 0.0000000000005% before the change. Meanwhile the odds of you getting pity broken by bad units while you're trying to get good units have dropped dramatically. It makes New and Seasonal Banners appealing for much the same reason Legendary Banners have been appealing, you have less RNG to deal with in what the game will give you. That's a net positive change any way I look at it. Any good businessman would have stopped to explain why players will like this, but instead Feh hits us with bedtime and the broadcast was over. Bad look. It also doesn't help that the rest of the broadcast was a total snoozefest and this change could have been slipped in the middle.

Edited by Glennstavos

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1 hour ago, TheNiddo said:

Only a handful of Book 1 5*s have skills worth getting excited over still (Hector and Takumi easily come to mind... beyond that I'm starting to struggle). 

Firesweep Bow is gone. This is crucial for team composition for players who focus on Player Phase combat. I have a good supply of Fayes in my Barracks, but most players do not have that luxury.
Steady Breath is gone. This skill is crucial for Lightning Breath-Steady Breath dragons. Water Breath-Distant Counter is comparable in power, but it is more expensive due to both skills being 5* locked.
Close Counter is gone. This skill is crucial for Counter-Vantage set ups, and the build is a pretty big deal for Aether Raids right now.
Hone Fliers is gone. This skill is crucial for ranged Player Phase flier teams.
Spd Ploy is gone.
Res Ploy is gone.

Distant Counter is more rare, gone from the green pool. This skill is crucial for both regular Enemy Phase units and Counter-Vantage units.
Flier Formation is more rare, gone from the red pool. This skill is invaluable for flier ball Aether Raids defense set ups.
Wrath is more rare, gone from the blue pool.
Guidance is more rare, gone from the blue pool.
Spd Smoke is more rare, gone from the red pool.
Atk Ploy is more rare, gone from the red pool.

Wrathful Staff might be more rare, it is still in the colorless pool. This skill is crucial for offensive staff units.
Armor March might be more rare, it is still in the green pool. This skill is crucial for dual phase armor teams.
Infantry Pulse might be more rare, it is still in the green pool. This skill is crucial for certain specific team compositions, such as for Blazing mages.
Sword Valor might be more rare, it is still in the red pool. This skill is a huge quality of life improvement in my opinion.
Panic Ploy might be more rare, it is still in the red pool.
Drive Atk might be more rare, it is still in the blue pool.

Edited by XRay

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If I wasn't already gone, this might've made a good tipping point. This change affects only a small portion of summoning and basically tells me that, even if anyone interesting showed up on a banner, I'm not even going to get Elincia, Tana, Faye or Sanaki when running after them, and if I see one of them on a sub-banner, nothing about that experience has changed.

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11 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

They did do that for the fodder banners with increased 4* chance, back when IS made the occasional good decision.

Yeah, I mean for every banner they appear on though. Like, when they started having the skill focus banners-- Heroes with Death Blow (Klein, Hawkeye, Effie) should have had those units also get a boosted 3-4* rate. Basically make those banners "a chance to actually get Death Blow fodder" and not just "some 5*s who happen to come with Death Blow". Same thing for the Voting Gauntlet banners, since then you might actually get them for use in the VG itself.

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8 minutes ago, XRay said:

Firesweep Bow is gone. This is crucial for team composition for players who focus on Player Phase combat. I have a good supply of Fayes in my Barracks, but most players do not have that luxury.
Steady Breath is gone. This skill is crucial for Lightning Breath-Steady Breath dragons. Water Breath-Distant Counter is comparable in power, but it is more expensive due to both skills being 5* locked.
Close Counter is gone. This skill is crucial for Counter-Vantage set ups, and the build is a pretty big deal for Aether Raids right now.
Hone Fliers is gone. This skill is crucial for ranged Player Phase flier teams.
Spd Ploy is gone.
Res Ploy is gone.

Distant Counter is more rare, gone from the green pool. This skill is crucial for both regular Enemy Phase units and Counter-Vantage units.
Flier Formation is more rare, gone from the red pool. This skill is invaluable for flier ball Aether Raids defense set ups.
Hone Dragons is more rare, gone from the green pool. This skill is crucial for the handful of Player Phase dragon set ups.
Drive Atk is more rare, gone from the red pool.
Wrath is more rare, gone from the blue pool.
Guidance is more rare, gone from the blue pool.
Spd Smoke is more rare, gone from the red pool.
Atk Ploy is more rare, gone from the red pool.

Armor March might be more rare, it is still in the green pool. This skill is crucial for dual phase armor teams.
Infantry Pulse might be more rare, it is still in the green pool. This skill is crucial for certain specific team compositions, such as for Blazing mages.
Sword Valor might be more rare, it is still in the red pool. This skill is a huge quality of life improvement in my opinion.
Panic Ploy might be more rare, it is still in the red pool.

Hone Fliers is not gone. It's easily available on Hot Springs Camilla.

Flier Formation is easily available on Spring Loki.

Panic Ploy is easily available on Garon.

Spd Ploy is available from Saias.

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9 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Hone Fliers is not gone. It's easily available on Hot Springs Camilla.

Flier Formation is easily available on Spring Loki.

Panic Ploy is easily available on Garon.

Spd Ploy is available from Saias.

Not all players want to spend Grails on skill fodder. As a paying player, I much rather spend Orbs than Grails for skill fodder.

Edited by XRay

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11 minutes ago, XRay said:

Hone Dragons is more rare, gone from the green pool.

Myrrh isn't Gen 1 and thus didn't get the boot, so that one isn't correct.

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1 minute ago, Etheus said:

Hone Fliers is not gone. It's easily available on Hot Springs Camilla.

Flier Formation is easily available on Spring Loki.

Panic Ploy is easily available on Garon.

Spd Ploy is available from Saias.

Those aren’t great alternatives.

Grail units should be considered more valuable than 5* imo considering their hard to obtain premium currency and being a finite resource.

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1 minute ago, Tybrosion said:

Myrrh isn't Gen 1 and thus didn't get the boot, so that one isn't correct.

Oh yeah. I just doubled checked her release date. I will edit.

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4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Hone Fliers is not gone. It's easily available on Hot Springs Camilla.

Flier Formation is easily available on Spring Loki.

Panic Ploy is easily available on Garon.

Spd Ploy is available from Saias.

XRay already responded, but all of those options require you to spend Heroic Grails which are capped at 20 copies or wait for a GHB rerun and hope for a TT unit rerun.

Edited by Kaden

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5 minutes ago, XRay said:

Firesweep Bow is gone. This is crucial for team composition for players who focus on Player Phase combat. I have a good supply of Fayes in my Barracks, but most players do not have that luxury.
Steady Breath is gone. This skill is crucial for Lightning Breath-Steady Breath dragons. Water Breath-Distant Counter is comparable in power, but it is more expensive due to both skills being 5* locked.
Close Counter is gone. This skill is crucial for Counter-Vantage set ups, and the build is a pretty big deal for Aether Raids right now.
Hone Fliers is gone. This skill is crucial for ranged Player Phase flier teams.
Spd Ploy is gone.
Res Ploy is gone.

Distant Counter is more rare, gone from the green pool. This skill is crucial for both regular Enemy Phase units and Counter-Vantage units.
Flier Formation is more rare, gone from the red pool. This skill is invaluable for flier ball Aether Raids defense set ups.
Hone Dragons is more rare, gone from the green pool. This skill is crucial for the handful of Player Phase dragon set ups.
Drive Atk is more rare, gone from the red pool.
Wrath is more rare, gone from the blue pool.
Guidance is more rare, gone from the blue pool.
Spd Smoke is more rare, gone from the red pool.
Atk Ploy is more rare, gone from the red pool.

Armor March might be more rare, it is still in the green pool. This skill is crucial for dual phase armor teams.
Infantry Pulse might be more rare, it is still in the green pool. This skill is crucial for certain specific team compositions, such as for Blazing mages.
Sword Valor might be more rare, it is still in the red pool. This skill is a huge quality of life improvement in my opinion.
Panic Ploy might be more rare, it is still in the red pool.

Actually funny enough... Distant Counter is easier to get now by a small margin. When you look at the units being removed, how they affect the summoning odds within each colour, and do the math, post change you have a higher chance of getting Nailah than you do getting a Hector or a Nailah now. There are probably other skills you listed that are in the same boat: one of two possible carries of a skill being removed doesn't actually strictly mean its more difficult to get. RNG odds are funny that way. 

Also again: literally every one of those skills still exist in the majority of banners. New hero banners do not make up the bulk of banners. Its more like 25%. Can still get pity broken when aiming for say, Grima on the current VG banner and end up with a Hector in your lap.

There is no good way to do the following all at the same time: 1) reduce the odds of getting pity broken by something like a Mist when going for a shiny new unit 2) prevent 3-4* bloat (by which I mean increasing the difficulty of building a 3-4* unit up because its so difficult to get copies of them in the sea of 3-4*s, which is something that is complained about by a lot of individuals and they undoubtably got feedback about)  3) not hurt IS's profit margins

People mentioned the fodder banners from the past... if they made a good profit they would still be around. Clearly they did not. So, go ahead and try to think of a solution for the current summoning pool situation that covers all 3 of the previous points without using a fodder banner because that option has already failed. I'll cut everyone off at the pass and say that a Book 1 only banner would probably have the same issue due to the majority of the units not being nearly as good as the Book 2 or Book 3 units either in stats or in fodder. Nor is claiming that IS can afford to make less of a profit: gacha games are 100% about profit. 

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Just now, XRay said:

Oh yeah. I just doubled checked her release date. I will edit.

While you're at it, Drive Atk still exists in the red pool as Leif isn't going anywhere either. Delthea, however, did get removed.

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3 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Distant Counter is easier to get now by a small margin

That is only if you are sniping blues. If a player wants to snipe green or something, they will never get Distant Counter from green.

2 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

While you're at it, Drive Atk still exists in the red pool as Leif isn't going anywhere either. Delthea, however, did get removed.

Okay. I just fixed that too and moved to the might be more rare group.

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