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Book 1 5*s will still be summonable on most focus circles


TheNiddo
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1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

Well one isn't going to summon on banners whose focus units one isn't interested in regardless, however when one has to choose between banners that have units one is interested in most or going to lean heavily towards the one with the much better pity break pool.  

Mist, Luke, etc are a big reason many are/were generally less inclined to pull reds and colorless (red hell, colorless hell) while feeling much safer with green.  Considering the banners are usually 3% focus/3% off focus.  It isn't like there is some small chance of being off focus pity broken, it is a huge chance.  Of course one is going for the focus unit but if getting pity broken happens it is infinitely better with the superb new pool as opposed to the bloated old pool full of poor performing outdated units with no worthy fodder.  

So with Loki and the old pool one could spend 100+ orbs and end up with Mist.  So end up with nothing basically.  Or one can spend 100+ orbs and what is the worse colorless now?  Maybe Nina?  Bow valor and a link skill?  Yes that is at least is a great silver lining to the dark cloud of not getting ones wanted focus unit.  

this is so silly. I am not automatically going to start summoning on banners that have "the better pity break pool" if i don't want the units. Or if I had to choose between the focus banner  I want, and the new banner - i'm NOT going to ignore the focus banner because i could (key word here). be pity broken by a unit i may not like. 

You don't have to fodder anything off. You could - you know, actually keep and use the unit. if you don't want to, then it sucks, again. I hate Zelgius and he's a useless pity break for me, until i can figure out who to fodder him off to. but to not to go after a unit i wanted because I might get Zelgius is silly. 

Yah. you could spend 100 orbs and end up with Mist. or. this might be a surprise - you could spend 100 orbs and end up with Loki.  and quite frankly, it's not like getting pity broken by Nina is any big "prize" either. Speed/Res Link is meh, shining bow is useless, and sure. bow valour. the pool might be more releveant, but let's call a spade a spade. there are still duds. I wouldn't mind a NIna,  just like I wouldn't mind a Mist. but 100 orbs in, regardless if it's Mist OR Nina, I'm going to be pissed off. skills at that point mean nothing. (and is mist was like +atk or something and nina had crap ivs, i could build mist up where as i'd have to spend SI to fix nina. (or. HM farm her which takes time, then fodder her off). you can spin this so many ways. 

but I would rather try and get the unit i want than ignore a unit because i might get something off focus. but i mean  each their own. 

I don't go into banners thinking i'm going to get pity broken, I go into banners, hoping to get my focus unit.If I wanted the focus unit, and it wasn't like Three Reds (ie: Lene/Gray/Chrom), going. "well you know. I could get my focus unit or i could get anything). 

I think you miss the fundamental point here. 

33 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

1. Bad luck is inevitable sooner or later, so that’s all the more reason to ensure you spend your orbs wisely, so you give yourself the best chance of getting what you want the most.

2. The focus unit distribution is out of your control. You may not be able to get them both even if you had saved up a lot. But if you hadn’t saved up, you may not get either of them. Instead, you got some other focus unit. The important thing is to never regret what you pulled.

for the most part. i mean i'm human (and emotional) LOL i'lll rage sometimes, but usually i can find uses for most of my units. (except zelgius. he can sit there and rot for all i care) same with Ylgr. 

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An oft repeated point I've seen about the new summoning pools is that you should never roll for something in the hope an off-focus unit pity breaks you. That may be true but without pity breakers, I just wouldn't have many of the units in my barracks because the budget never allowed for them. I've pulled Alm, Hector and even Ayra before as pity breakers and it's a more significant benefit that they were added to my barracks than it was a disappointment that I've been pity broken by Merric or Mist.

And speaking of Merric vs Mist, we see the clear path that IS should have taken. Outdated units get demoted. Much as I'd love to merge up a Minerva, she doesn't have the stat line or skills to make her worth rolling for exclusively compared to new units. She may as well be removed from the summoning pool entirely unless she both appears on a banner (hardly a guarantee) and I get lucky on a free pull (even less of a certainty). I think free pulls really demonstrate how many people spend their orbs. Before free pulls were introduced to the game, I almost never rolled on banners that didn't have new units. With a free pull, however, there is a chance, no matter how slim, that I will get something special without greater investment. Being able to get pity broken is similar, it's a chance to get something I wouldn't have felt justified in rolling for directly.

IS' stubborn refusal to demote the outdated 5* is both greedy and not even financially benefitial to themselves, I would argue. It's because they're outdated that they're going to be low priority pulls for most players. Do they think players are going to be busting out their wallets for Eldigan when they could easily pull a 3* Ares? Will people spend their hard earned cash on Olwen when Reinhardt is easy to merge and select an ideal nature?

Edited by NekoKnight
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40 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

this is so silly. I am not automatically going to start summoning on banners that have "the better pity break pool" if i don't want the units. Or if I had to choose between the focus banner  I want, and the new banner - i'm NOT going to ignore the focus banner because i could (key word here). be pity broken by a unit i may not like. 

You don't have to fodder anything off. You could - you know, actually keep and use the unit. if you don't want to, then it sucks, again. I hate Zelgius and he's a useless pity break for me, until i can figure out who to fodder him off to. but to not to go after a unit i wanted because I might get Zelgius is silly. 

Yah. you could spend 100 orbs and end up with Mist. or. this might be a surprise - you could spend 100 orbs and end up with Loki.  and quite frankly, it's not like getting pity broken by Nina is any big "prize" either. Speed/Res Link is meh, shining bow is useless, and sure. bow valour. the pool might be more releveant, but let's call a spade a spade. there are still duds. I wouldn't mind a NIna,  just like I wouldn't mind a Mist. but 100 orbs in, regardless if it's Mist OR Nina, I'm going to be pissed off. skills at that point mean nothing. (and is mist was like +atk or something and nina had crap ivs, i could build mist up where as i'd have to spend SI to fix nina. (or. HM farm her which takes time, then fodder her off). you can spin this so many ways. 

but I would rather try and get the unit i want than ignore a unit because i might get something off focus. but i mean  each their own. 

I don't go into banners thinking i'm going to get pity broken, I go into banners, hoping to get my focus unit.If I wanted the focus unit, and it wasn't like Three Reds (ie: Lene/Gray/Chrom), going. "well you know. I could get my focus unit or i could get anything). 

I think you miss the fundamental point here. 

 

I get the fundamental point the focus unit is the prize, what we are going for.  However when one doesn't get the prize sure it sucks, but with the old pool on average it will suck much more for most people.  That doesn't mean necessarily you will avoid banners with the old pool, but if it is up against a banner that has the new pool and has a unit you want just as much...you only have enough orbs for one, which one do you go for?  The smart choice is always the latter.  I think you are missing that there are different levels of disappointed.  

It's like you spend 50 bucks and flip a coin.  Heads you get a prize you want with person A and B.  Tails with person A you get 20 bucks, with person B you get a penny.  Which is the better choice?

Edited by Lewyn
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27 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

It's like you spend 50 bucks and flip a coin.  Heads you get a prize you want with person A and B.  Tails with person A you get 20 bucks, with person B you get a penny.  Which is the better choice?

It would be more accurate if with person B, you then roll a D20 and get 20 bucks if you roll 2 through 20 and a penny if you roll a 1. The difference is so negligible that it makes very little difference.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It would be more accurate if with person B, you then roll a D20 and get 20 bucks if you roll 2 through 20 and a penny if you roll a 1. The difference is so negligible that it makes very little difference.

Aren't the odds of getting one of the non focus units the same as the focus?  3% vs 3%?  Except the new non focus pool is of a much higher quality than the old one.  I think a 50/50 chance of getting garbage vs a 50/50 chance of getting something usable and decent is a pretty big difference.

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1 minute ago, Lewyn said:

Aren't the odds of getting one of the non focus units the same as the focus?  3% vs 3%?  Except the new non focus pool is of a much higher quality than the old one.  I think a 50/50 chance of getting garbage vs a 50/50 chance of getting something usable and decent is a pretty big difference.

It is mathematically impossible to remove elements from a set containing only garbage and get a set that no longer contains garbage without removing every element. Therefore, it is mathematically impossible that the old pitybreaker pool contained only garbage if the new pitybreaker pool contains at least one unit that is not garbage.

That is why there is the D20 involved on the pitybreaker side of the coinflip. If you pull a pitybreaker, there's still only a small chance that the pitybreaker you pulled was garbage.

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9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It is mathematically impossible to remove elements from a set containing only garbage and get a set that no longer contains garbage without removing every element. Therefore, it is mathematically impossible that the old pitybreaker pool contained only garbage if the new pitybreaker pool contains at least one unit that is not garbage.

That is why there is the D20 involved on the pitybreaker side of the coinflip. If you pull a pitybreaker, there's still only a small chance that the pitybreaker you pulled was garbage.

Yes the old set didn't contain only garbage cause the newer units were included too, and there are a few older units that have stood up well or still have valuable fodder.  However looking at the old pool it is more than just a few units that are poor performing and don't offer valuable fodder.  It isn't just Mist or Luke, there are many more old units that have been removed.  What has happened is all those worthless poor performing units have been removed from the off focus pool leaving only good stuff.  

I mean you can spin it any way you want.  The new pool has almost all units now that are either good/great and/or have good/great fodder.  Before a large portion weren't.  

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4 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Before a large portion weren't.  

Green was solid as long as you aren't allergic to using Divine Dew for refines (for Julia and Sonya).

Colorless had Mist. That's it. Jaffar and Innes are arguable since they have niche uses (Jaffar is a good Vantage tank for Aether Raids, Innes is a magic tank that can shoot dragons for free).

Blue had Olwen. Ephraim is arguable. Cuan is also arguable, but he's still in the pool.

Red had Luke, Gray, and Lyn. Eldigan is arguable, but he has access to either stupid bulk or Special Spiral as a cavalry unit.

That's hardly a large portion. That's like 5 units and 5 more arguable out of a pool of more than 100.

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8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, I just didn't bother talking about lower priority tiers because they have lower priority and I will therefore never reach that priority tier, so it will never matter. I will detail my own priorities below.

 

They aren't out of hand. I simply have them planned to synchronize almost perfectly with my budget.

My first priority is one copy of each new unit plus a number of merges or spare copies on two or three units that are likely to be useful immediately or in the future or are characters or units I personally like. This is what I know is achievable with my current budget and therefore is the goal that I set each month.

This is why my second priority list rarely gets touched. My first priority list rotates almost exactly as quickly as I can drop characters off of it by completion (very few linger incomplete after each primary banner ends). This means that I only ever get to work towards my second-priority characters if I complete my first-priority list for that month because I'll have a new first-priority list as soon as the next primary banner starts. That also means that if there aren't any second-priority characters for that month, the remaining budget simply ends up being absorbed into the "in case I get screwed" pool for my first priority list.

The good thing about this system is that I have clear-cut goals and a planned budget for achieving them. The bad thing about this system is that I have to rely on pitybreakers for everything else because my budget and goals are designed with the other in mind, rarely leaving me with spare budget to work on my second-priority units.

 

As for my current priorities:

First priority is only Idunn [+Atk] right now. She'll probably stay there for at least a few months if I don't get one earlier than that. This is a fairly rare case; most first priorities drop to second or lower after their release banner ends.

My previous first priority list was 11 copies of Yune (at least one +Atk or +Res), 11 copies of Idunn (at least one +Atk), 1 copy of Thea, 1 copy of Sue, 1 copy of Lugh, 1 copy of Spring Veronica, 1 copy of Spring Bruno, 1 copy of Spring Palla, and 2 copies of Spring Marisa. All of those have since been completed except for the +Atk Idunn, and the list is currently waiting to be repopulated.

Second priority is currently vanilla Hector (~4 copies), Ophelia (1 copy), Tibarn (~? copies), Winter Tharja (8 copies), Valentine Lyn (4 copies), New Year Laevatein (9 copies), and New Year Fjorm (6 copies). Halloween Kagero and "extra copies of Bold Fighter" dropped off of this list by completion with the results of the recent Mythic Hero banner.

Everything else is in the "wait for pitybreakers" bucket.

I mean more than two actually relevant priority tiers. Are all the things in your second priority tier really interchangeable?

If you consistently pick up new first priorities fast enough to leave little or no room to save or to dig into your second priorities, it sounds to me like you let things into first priority too easily. In particular, I think it's fairly strange to mark things as first priority if they'll drop out of first priority that easily once they're no longer new. Why spend orbs on a "first priority" that will drop to third priority when you could use them to dig into second priorities instead?

Personally, my first priority tier is Caineghis and Summer Linde. That's it. They cover the three things I want most right now: a colorless beast, a beast armor, and a dagger cavalry, all on characters I'm missing but would like to have and with builds I like. Caineghis's announcement didn't expand that tier because he kicked Velouria out of it, probably to second tier.

It's interesting getting a look at your system, but none of it changes my point. If you could pull for Winter Tharja at other times of the year but not at the time she actually runs, all that says is that you aren't focusing as much on the long term as you could be, and this closer look at your system confirms that that's the case. Both your first and second priority summons are heavily affected by putting "what's convenient right now" over large-scale resource allocation over the course of months.

7 hours ago, TheNiddo said:

There's no reason to believe that would change. History doesn't support it changing. Less free orbs = more people get desperate enough to buy orbs = more money. Thus, yet another new currency = bad for those who don't want to spend money. 

History shows the free orb rate starting much lower than it's at currently. It went up quite a ways over the course of the first year, even as new currencies showed up.

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Nanna is the only exception, though that's because she has 5 skills. (I guess that means we technically do have precedent for a unit with 5 skills demoting. Hmm.)

Ethlyn isn't a demote, but she's the only grail unit with five skills. Every staff unit since Nanna has had two passives for a total of five skills: it seems to be the standard for them now, and not an obstacle for them being available at 4* like with other weapon types. We've still never had a unit with three passives demote.

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A little perspective from an F2P player: these 47 units may as well not exist to me anymore, because with the low supply of free orbs I get, there's no possible way I could ever in my right mind use such a limited resource on outdated units which have been powercrept out by new units.  It's the same logic as why spending grails on anything but merges is bad play for whales.  (For F2Ps that's a much murkier proposition, since they don't have nearly the orb supply to pull copies of coveted SI)

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4 hours ago, Othin said:

Are all the things in your second priority tier really interchangeable?

Yes, they actually are. All of them are fully optional optimization projects (as opposed to +Atk Idunn, who I don't consider optional yet):

  • Hector is there for Goad Armor on my armors. idunn is the only armor currently needing Distant Counter, and that's not a high priority due to the low rate that ranged units appear in my Arena tier and the fact that she is no longer a bonus unit, so she doesn't actually need kills.
  • Ophelia's Atk is already maxed. The 1 copy of her is just for the shining gold border.
  • Tibarn is for optimization of several characters that already have suitable alternative skills.
  • All of the seasonals are for merges. I don't have any of them at top priority because they are all unlikely to be bonus units, meaning they are not necessities. I have a decent number of them on the list because I know they will pretty much never overlap with each other (except the two New Year units).

 

4 hours ago, Othin said:

Why spend orbs on a "first priority" that will drop to third priority when you could use them to dig into second priorities instead?

Arena bonus units are the biggest reason.

As a side note, with the new banner announced, the new additions to my priorities are

  • First priority: 1 copy of each of the new units (will drop off on completion)
  • Second priority: extra copies of Caineghis and Lethe (will drop off when they are no longer Arena bonus units)
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10 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

An oft repeated point I've seen about the new summoning pools is that you should never roll for something in the hope an off-focus unit pity breaks you. That may be true but without pity breakers, I just wouldn't have many of the units in my barracks because the budget never allowed for them. I've pulled Alm, Hector and even Ayra before as pity breakers and it's a more significant benefit that they were added to my barracks than it was a disappointment that I've been pity broken by Merric or Mist.

And speaking of Merric vs Mist, we see the clear path that IS should have taken. Outdated units get demoted. Much as I'd love to merge up a Minerva, she doesn't have the stat line or skills to make her worth rolling for exclusively compared to new units. She may as well be removed from the summoning pool entirely unless she both appears on a banner (hardly a guarantee) and I get lucky on a free pull (even less of a certainty). I think free pulls really demonstrate how many people spend their orbs. Before free pulls were introduced to the game, I almost never rolled on banners that didn't have new units. With a free pull, however, there is a chance, no matter how slim, that I will get something special without greater investment. Being able to get pity broken is similar, it's a chance to get something I wouldn't have felt justified in rolling for directly.

IS' stubborn refusal to demote the outdated 5* is both greedy and not even financially benefitial to themselves, I would argue. It's because they're outdated that they're going to be low priority pulls for most players. Do they think players are going to be busting out their wallets for Eldigan when they could easily pull a 3* Ares? Will people spend their hard earned cash on Olwen when Reinhardt is easy to merge and select an ideal nature?

I'm the same way. but there is this big thing that "all Gen 1 is bad." not so. I think basically once you get off the sourness of being broken (unless you got broken by a 5* that you wanted (outside of the focus) any and all can work out. a lot of my barracks are weirdo pity breaks to. 

olwen isn't even that good compared to her brother. 
I have Eldigan and he sucks (But to be fair. i am not team Cav). 

but for me if Ephiriam had a banner i'dprobably do it. same w/Minerva etc. 

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1 hour ago, daisy jane said:

but for me if Ephiriam had a banner i'dprobably do it. same w/Minerva etc. 

For me new characters will always trump merges for old characters unless I need to fix a really bad nature. New units and skills keep the game fresh so while I'll definitely roll for Lyn and Minerva the first time, it's hard to justify spending orbs on repeat copies because an extra few stats on a unit doesn't add as much enjoyment as, say, rolling for DC fodder or some other fun build. Laegjarn is the only unit I'll always try to go for but otherwise, only low rarity units get to be merge projects.

But damn, I would love to casually get Lyns and Minervas while rolling for other things. More demotes or I'll...I'll...send feedback in a stern tone!

Edited by NekoKnight
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14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Green was solid as long as you aren't allergic to using Divine Dew for refines (for Julia and Sonya).

Colorless had Mist. That's it. Jaffar and Innes are arguable since they have niche uses (Jaffar is a good Vantage tank for Aether Raids, Innes is a magic tank that can shoot dragons for free).

Blue had Olwen. Ephraim is arguable. Cuan is also arguable, but he's still in the pool.

Red had Luke, Gray, and Lyn. Eldigan is arguable, but he has access to either stupid bulk or Special Spiral as a cavalry unit.

That's hardly a large portion. That's like 5 units and 5 more arguable out of a pool of more than 100.

Colorless also has Elise who would be useless to most people since most have Brave Veronica, and she doesn't have fodder either.  Jaffar needs to be supermerged so for most people functionally he is going to be a poor pity breaker.  Innes is unique and nice if you do his refine.  

Red in addition to those you mentioned as PoR Ike who is inferior to L! Ike who everyone got for free.  Heavy blade is better as a seal, and unless both not wanting to sack a spare Jamka and wanting to build a one turn galeforce firesweep unit like Cordelia who needs QP in seal slot, Ike is a complete waste.  Karel is also lackluster, you have to do a refine just to make him decent.  Lucina, we got a bunch of Masked Marths.  Leo who is outclassed by all red horse tome users one of which we got for free.  

 

Edited by Lewyn
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16 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

An oft repeated point I've seen about the new summoning pools is that you should never roll for something in the hope an off-focus unit pity breaks you. That may be true but without pity breakers, I just wouldn't have many of the units in my barracks because the budget never allowed for them. I've pulled Alm, Hector and even Ayra before as pity breakers and it's a more significant benefit that they were added to my barracks than it was a disappointment that I've been pity broken by Merric or Mist.

And speaking of Merric vs Mist, we see the clear path that IS should have taken. Outdated units get demoted. Much as I'd love to merge up a Minerva, she doesn't have the stat line or skills to make her worth rolling for exclusively compared to new units. She may as well be removed from the summoning pool entirely unless she both appears on a banner (hardly a guarantee) and I get lucky on a free pull (even less of a certainty). I think free pulls really demonstrate how many people spend their orbs. Before free pulls were introduced to the game, I almost never rolled on banners that didn't have new units. With a free pull, however, there is a chance, no matter how slim, that I will get something special without greater investment. Being able to get pity broken is similar, it's a chance to get something I wouldn't have felt justified in rolling for directly.

IS' stubborn refusal to demote the outdated 5* is both greedy and not even financially benefitial to themselves, I would argue. It's because they're outdated that they're going to be low priority pulls for most players. Do they think players are going to be busting out their wallets for Eldigan when they could easily pull a 3* Ares? Will people spend their hard earned cash on Olwen when Reinhardt is easy to merge and select an ideal nature?

Pretty much, I'd love to +10 my Ike, Lyn, or Leo, just because I like them, but it's hard to justify spending Orbs for them, even if they're on a banner, since they're so far behind the power curve at this point, and I need pretty much every available Orb to have a chance at the new units that are coming out.  Demoting the old units could give many people a project to work on, without really threatening the meta or losing potential revenue for IS.

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8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yes, they actually are. All of them are fully optional optimization projects (as opposed to +Atk Idunn, who I don't consider optional yet):

  • Hector is there for Goad Armor on my armors. idunn is the only armor currently needing Distant Counter, and that's not a high priority due to the low rate that ranged units appear in my Arena tier and the fact that she is no longer a bonus unit, so she doesn't actually need kills.
  • Ophelia's Atk is already maxed. The 1 copy of her is just for the shining gold border.
  • Tibarn is for optimization of several characters that already have suitable alternative skills.
  • All of the seasonals are for merges. I don't have any of them at top priority because they are all unlikely to be bonus units, meaning they are not necessities. I have a decent number of them on the list because I know they will pretty much never overlap with each other (except the two New Year units).

 

Arena bonus units are the biggest reason.

As a side note, with the new banner announced, the new additions to my priorities are

  • First priority: 1 copy of each of the new units (will drop off on completion)
  • Second priority: extra copies of Caineghis and Lethe (will drop off when they are no longer Arena bonus units)

"Fully optional optimization projects" does not imply "equal priority". If you were in a position to spend orbs on one of those second-tier projects but had a choice between two or more of them at the same time, surely you'd find a way to pick one to prioritize, right?

Spending hundreds of orbs on merges for a unit just to use them in the arena for up to two weeks does not sound like long-term thinking to me. At least, beyond whatever you need to reliably get crowns.

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4 minutes ago, Othin said:

"Fully optional optimization projects" does not imply "equal priority". If you were in a position to spend orbs on one of those second-tier projects but had a choice between two or more of them at the same time, surely you'd find a way to pick one to prioritize, right?

Tiers of 1 element each is an ordered list. An ordered list is not a tier list. Yes, I'd pick one to put over the other if multiple were available at the same time, but that doesn't mean they aren't the same tier of priority.

 

6 minutes ago, Othin said:

Spending hundreds of orbs on merges for a unit just to use them in the arena for up to two weeks does not sound like long-term thinking to me. At least, beyond whatever you need to reliably get crowns.

Hence why I typically only pull for 1 or 2 copies of units that are there only to be the Arena bonus unit. The few units that I intend to use long-term, like Idunn or Ophelia, are the ones that I actually go for additional merges on.

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