Local Turban beats smol bard with FACTS and LOGIC

[A Boy]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xYSbx-2hlfj0mQHziO91uVeABf_qYgimAfpyim93-NA/edit?usp=drivesdk

Feel free to criticize on anything you think for the Alec > Levin argument.

Edited April 11, 2019 by A Boy
It wasn't a turban beating up a smol bard, just a FE argument. This is so sad. I'm crying and shaking rn

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

Forseti is the best unit. It can be equipped to a horse boy to make Gen 2 “Seliph and Arthur’s Adventure (feat. A Dancer and Naga)”

But yeah, I will still use Levin, just with the knowledge I have here. Already know how Alec can use the Light and Levin Swords from @Mekkah, but still.

We need to make this a trend.

[eclipse]

You've disappointed me twice.

1. I really don't like clickbait.
2. I also don't care for reposts (shoutout to reddit on the fourth page).

Levin, at least, has some story significance.  Alec managed to annoy me in what few lines he had, and somehow managed to irritate me more than Levin.  Since I somewhat care about my units as characters, guess which one hit the bench first?

[A Boy]

12 hours ago, eclipse said:

You've disappointed me twice.

1. I really don't like clickbait.
2. I also don't care for reposts (shoutout to reddit on the fourth page).

Levin, at least, has some story significance.  Alec managed to annoy me in what few lines he had, and somehow managed to irritate me more than Levin.  Since I somewhat care about my units as characters, guess which one hit the bench first?

I mean I was aiming more for a really bad meme name for this topic, not clickbait.

Also not like everyone who uses reddit also uses the fourms. Just wanted some feedback on the work. Not like I gain anything else

Edited April 11, 2019 by A Boy
changed stuff

[𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥]

On 10/4/2019 at 6:44 PM, A Boy said:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xYSbx-2hlfj0mQHziO91uVeABf_qYgimAfpyim93-NA/edit?usp=drivesdk

Feel free to criticize on anything you think for the Alec > Levin argument.

i have yet to understand in wich terms Alec would be better than Levin, since they're 2 entirely different units with different roles.

i could understand if it was a comparison between mounted units or mages, but this is like comparing water with fire.

 

if we're talking about basic utility: while being pre-promoted, Alec is a mounted unit that can double enemies but won't kill them in just one round due to his low damage output, while Levin is a mage that deals decent damage by default and can potentially two-shot enemies with Adept, or even one-shot them right away with critical hits.

not to mention that Levin is also one of those units that can clear arenas starting from early chapters, while Alec will get to the 2nd~3rd round at best in most cases for the whole mid to late-game, unless the player will let him kill enemy units with few HP left just to feed him exp. that makes a visible difference in leveling.

Levin can also use a Pursuit ring to counter the lack of such skill, while Alec can't use any weapon/item with the skill Critical, since only the Killer bow from Jamke has it in Gen 1.

the only alternative for Alec would be to use a sword with 50 kills unlocked for its critical chance, wich means either stealing kills/exp from other units, or let someone else get 50 kills on another sword before selling/buying it back from the Pawn shop.

he could eventually use a Hero sword in order to deal 4 hits, but that way you would loose the combo of Pursuit+Hero sword+Astra on Ayra, wich is far more deadly.

Alec also needs specific gear in order to be decent, while Levin doesn't since he already has everything he needs from the start. that's another visible difference in terms of resources and money saving overall.

as for the magic sword build, there's also units like Azel that will benefit far more from a Magic ring, due to Fire tomes having the lowest evasion in game, so the more damage dealt before getting hit, the better. and Azel has pursuit as well.

Giving Alec the Light sword also means that Leaf won't have his signature sword to deal ranged attacks in Gen 2, lowering his survival chances against melee enemy units. might as well use a Thunder or Wind sword on Alec, but that way he won't be able to kite enemies until the Pirates chapter, since those swords become available during/after that part.

 

after promotion, there's just no ground for comparison.

Alec is still a mounted unit that will have pretty much the same role as before, with the exception of being able to kite enemies with a magic sword build, while the other will become an hybrid mage/healer/debuffer that could even work as dodge-tank with Holsety.

Levin will also be able to heal allies far away with ranged heals due to his B rank in staffs, and silence/sleep enemy mages too( having a silence staff on him during chapter 5 will help a lot while crossing the desert area to Barhara, since enemy mages won't nuke you down with ranged spells as often as they would normally do ).

all that Alec really had over Levin is just a horse early game, wich becomes trivial if a Leg ring is given to Levin.

not to mention that a Rescue staff could also be used by either Aideen or Lachesis after promotion, just to keep Levin moving around easily.

 

i'm not saying that Alec is an entirely bad unit though, since any unit can become decent if given enough care and proper gear.

it's just that units with different roles can't really be compared between each other, due to different utility and uses.

[A Boy]

2 hours ago, Fenreir said:

i have yet to understand in wich terms Alec would be better than Levin, since they're 2 entirely different units with different roles.

i could understand if it was a comparison between mounted units or mages, but this is like comparing water with fire.

 

if we're talking about basic utility: while being pre-promoted, Alec is a mounted unit that can double enemies but won't kill them in just one round due to his low damage output, while Levin is a mage that deals decent damage by default and can potentially two-shot enemies with Adept, or even one-shot them right away with critical hits.

not to mention that Levin is also one of those units that can clear arenas starting from early chapters, while Alec will get to the 2nd~3rd round at best in most cases for the whole mid to late-game, unless the player will let him kill enemy units with few HP left just to feed him exp. that makes a visible difference in leveling.

Levin can also use a Pursuit ring to counter the lack of such skill, while Alec can't use any weapon/item with the skill Critical, since only the Killer bow from Jamke has it in Gen 1.

the only alternative for Alec would be to use a sword with 50 kills unlocked for its critical chance, wich means either stealing kills/exp from other units, or let someone else get 50 kills on another sword before selling/buying it back from the Pawn shop.

he could eventually use a Hero sword in order to deal 4 hits, but that way you would loose the combo of Pursuit+Hero sword+Astra on Ayra, wich is far more deadly.

Alec also needs specific gear in order to be decent, while Levin doesn't since he already has everything he needs from the start. that's another visible difference in terms of resources and money saving overall.

as for the magic sword build, there's also units like Azel that will benefit far more from a Magic ring, due to Fire tomes having the lowest evasion in game, so the more damage dealt before getting hit, the better. and Azel has pursuit as well.

Giving Alec the Light sword also means that Leaf won't have his signature sword to deal ranged attacks in Gen 2, lowering his survival chances against melee enemy units. might as well use a Thunder or Wind sword on Alec, but that way he won't be able to kite enemies until the Pirates chapter, since those swords become available during/after that part.

 

after promotion, there's just no ground for comparison.

Alec is still a mounted unit that will have pretty much the same role as before, with the exception of being able to kite enemies with a magic sword build, while the other will become an hybrid mage/healer/debuffer that could even work as dodge-tank with Holsety.

Levin will also be able to heal allies far away with ranged heals due to his B rank in staffs, and silence/sleep enemy mages too( having a silence staff on him during chapter 5 will help a lot while crossing the desert area to Barhara, since enemy mages won't nuke you down with ranged spells as often as they would normally do ).

all that Alec really had over Levin is just a horse early game, wich becomes trivial if a Leg ring is given to Levin.

not to mention that a Rescue staff could also be used by either Aideen or Lachesis after promotion, just to keep Levin moving around easily.

 

i'm not saying that Alec is an entirely bad unit though, since any unit can become decent if given enough care and proper gear.

it's just that units with different roles can't really be compared between each other, due to different utility and uses.

I'm speaking in terms of Alec is more useful and contributes more than Levin overall.

Levin CAN 1 round enemies with adept or crit but that doesnt mean he WILL. It isn't exactly reliable. He has 30ish% for adept and 12% at base for crit. The chances arent high and he'll mostly just be attacking once.

Levin does beat the arena better than Alec but Alec can actually catch up with others in the actual map. Weakening enemies for him is a bit annoying, but at least he can catch up with your main army. Levin isn't going to fight much without a mount and by the time he catches up, Sigurd and the others most likely murdered all the enemies like 2 turns ago. The level gap isn't that big.

Pursuit ring Levin works but I already stated other units that uses it better than him and why.

You might as well give the brave sword to Alec if you're deciding between him and Ayra because Alec will actually fight enemies on the map and be able to make more use out of it. I already stated why there's such a big gap between having a mount and not having one.

Yes Alec needs specific gear to be more useful but Levin doesn't have everything at the start. He has no mount nor pursuit. You suggested the pursuit ring which is better on others and actually will cost more money than the things you need for Alec.

Azel can usually 2 shot enemies fine. Fire has bad avoid but thunder exists in ch2 and wind in 3. He isn't going to one shot with the magic ring, just 1 round at best which isn't much of a problem with the lighter tomes. 

You can just use the light brand for the ch3 pirates and give it back to ethlyn and then use the thunder/wind/fire sword.

Levin is kinda too much of a dodge tank with Forseti. Usually enemies are just going to ignore him on enemy phase because his avoid is so high. Also only for 1.1 chapters.

Levin with staves like physics helps but you got Aideen who can use it at base plus you can just send Sigurd alone and he'll be fine with the Tyrfing. Also that's probably only for like 1-2 chapters at best.

You can give the leg ring to Levin or a mounted unit like Sigurd for 12 move in order to beat the chapter even faster which Levin will never reach. I don't see why you would want to try to keep everyone around the same level when you can break the game with much faster speeds. Also the leg ring is also an investment that's worth more than all of Alec's.

You can use the rescue staff to move Levin around.

But Alec doesn't need that.

[eclipse]

15 hours ago, A Boy said:

I mean I was aiming more for a really bad meme name for this topic, not clickbait.

Also not like everyone who uses reddit also uses the fourms. Just wanted some feedback on the work. Not like I gain anything else

Clickbait title + repost = HEY LOOK AT WHAT I DID.  Did I mention that blatant attention-seeking behavior gets on my nerves?

[Baldrick]

If you consider FE4 purely in terms of turn speed, Sigurd pretty much always works alone. He needs to build up a critical weapon ASAP, and he needs levels in the early chapters to reach benchmarks in later chapters. Other mounted units are only as good as the support they can provide him, which in Alec's case is nothing.

Light Sword Alec is cute, but doesn't have any real tactical use, unlike something like Light Sword Dew. Promoting him before chapter 4 is a hefty investment for a small benefit. Levin provides more useful unique utility without needing any favouritism.

[A Boy]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Clickbait title + repost = HEY LOOK AT WHAT I DID.  Did I mention that blatant attention-seeking behavior gets on my nerves?

Well I'm sorry if that got on your nerves, that wasn't my intention when I made the title and reposted. I do want more people to see it hoping that I would get more feedback on some things that I could improve on or fix when I present these types of info.

Meme title, well I can probably tone it down if it really pisses you and others off that much.

46 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

If you consider FE4 purely in terms of turn speed, Sigurd pretty much always works alone. He needs to build up a critical weapon ASAP, and he needs levels in the early chapters to reach benchmarks in later chapters. Other mounted units are only as good as the support they can provide him, which in Alec's case is nothing.

Light Sword Alec is cute, but doesn't have any real tactical use, unlike something like Light Sword Dew. Promoting him before chapter 4 is a hefty investment for a small benefit. Levin provides more useful unique utility without needing any favouritism.

But you would need to train Levin to 20 if you wanted some of the unique things he has compared to Alec plus you said Sigurd basically does everything. I don't see how training Levin would help when he would probably slow you down in order for him to keep up.

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, A Boy said:

Well I'm sorry if that got on your nerves, that wasn't my intention when I made the title and reposted. I do want more people to see it hoping that I would get more feedback on some things that I could improve on or fix when I present these types of info.

My only question is this: Couldn't anyone else use the magic swords/magic ring combo with similar results?

[A Boy]

9 minutes ago, eclipse said:

My only question is this: Couldn't anyone else use the magic swords/magic ring combo with similar results?

I thought I stated that, but I'll go more into depth on that for all the sword users.

Sigurd only needs the silver and maybe brave. His magic isn't going to beat Alec's and he murders everything with the silver anyway.

Noish would basically end up the same as Alec, but he doesn't have pursuit at base which is a pretty big difference since Alec would be doing 23-24 more damage than Noish per round. If Noish were to get the pursuit ring, he would be fine, but Noish actually has better strength to the point where you can just give him a brave sword and he'll do fine while Alec can use the magic swords for much needed damage.

I don't see any point in Azel getting it when he can just use actual magic.

Ayra does not have a mount and does not get the +5 magic Alec gets from promo so she's basically going to do 10 less damage per round. Astra is a thing, but still no mount.

Same for Holyn, but he doesn't even have Astra.

Beowulf has less magic than Alec and also has the better str stat which would prefer using the brave sword more than a magic one.

I'm pretty sure I don't need to explain Dew, Arden, nor Sylvia. Though Dew can steal more safely with them.

 

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, A Boy said:

I thought I stated that, but I'll go more into depth on that for all the sword users.

Sigurd only needs the silver and maybe brave. His magic isn't going to beat Alec's and he murders everything with the silver anyway.

Noish would basically end up the same as Alec, but he doesn't have pursuit at base which is a pretty big difference since Alec would be doing 23-24 more damage than Noish per round. If Noish were to get the pursuit ring, he would be fine, but Noish actually has better strength to the point where you can just give him a brave sword and he'll do fine while Alec can use the magic swords for much needed damage.

I don't see any point in Azel getting it when he can just use actual magic.

Ayra does not have a mount and does not get the +5 magic Alec gets from promo so she's basically going to do 10 less damage per round. Astra is a thing, but still no mount.

Same for Holyn, but he doesn't even have Astra.

Beowulf has less magic than Alec and also has the better str stat which would prefer using the brave sword more than a magic one.

I'm pretty sure I don't need to explain Dew, Arden, nor Sylvia. Though Dew can steal more safely with them.

 

And Lachesis/Ethlyn/Fury?

[A Boy]

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

And Lachesis/Ethlyn/Fury?

Oh thanks for reminding me of them.

Lachesis has so many more options to go with the master knight class so I don't really think that her missing out on a flame sword would make a difference when she can use a brave sword, brave bow, brave axe, killer bow, staves, etc.

Ethlyn does use it better, but she does leave at the end of chapter 3 and Leif really doesn't need either magic items because master knight.

Erin...yeah she would be a better user. I can't really argue against that. Only thing I could say is that she has more options like staves while Alec has none so she wouldn't really be missing out on the magic sword while Alec would.

In fact all of them would work better, but there's the light brand, flame, thunder, and wind sword. Plus they can probably work fine without the magic ring in terms of handling enemies. Basically either everyone else doesn't have the magic stat, has the magic stat, doesn't have a mount, or has better options.

I'm not saying Alec needs the magic sword ring combo or else he's useless. He can work with the brave sword but you got other units like Sigurd and Beo who would use it better while there's rarely anyone else for magic swords and you get multiple of them. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by A Boy
it not them for the last paragraph

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, A Boy said:

Oh thanks for reminding me of them.

Lachesis has so many more options to go with the master knight class so I don't really think that her missing out on a flame sword would make a difference when she can use a brave sword, brave bow, brave axe, killer bow, staves, etc.

Ethlyn does use it better, but she does leave at the end of chapter 3 and Leif really doesn't need either magic items because master knight.

Erin...yeah she would be a better user. I can't really argue against that. Only thing I could say is that she has more options like staves while Alec has none so she wouldn't really be missing out on the magic sword while Alec would.

In fact all of them would work better, but there's the light brand, flame, thunder, and wind sword. Plus they can probably work fine without the magic ring in terms of handling enemies. Basically either everyone else doesn't have the magic stat, has the magic stat, doesn't have a mount, or has better options.

I'm not saying Alec needs the magic sword ring combo or else he's useless. He can work with the brave sword but you got other units like Sigurd and Beo who would use them better while there's rarely anyone else for magic swords and you get multiple of them. 

I was think pre-promotion Lachesis/Fury.  Lachesis appreciates a ranged option and has the magic stat to make it useful, while Fury flies.  Where the swords go somewhat matters, since there's apparently a magic weapon triangle thingy (and IIRC later-game has irritating enemy mages).

If I had to distribute the swords, it would be Lachesis/Fury/Dew.  The first two are self-explanatory, and Dew doesn't mind having more killing options.  Whether Alec/Dew get the magic ring would heavily depend on whether or not they're being paired.  Fury might, but not if she's going with a certain bard.

[A Boy]

5 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I was think pre-promotion Lachesis/Fury.  Lachesis appreciates a ranged option and has the magic stat to make it useful, while Fury flies.  Where the swords go somewhat matters, since there's apparently a magic weapon triangle thingy (and IIRC later-game has irritating enemy mages).

If I had to distribute the swords, it would be Lachesis/Fury/Dew.  The first two are self-explanatory, and Dew doesn't mind having more killing options.  Whether Alec/Dew get the magic ring would heavily depend on whether or not they're being paired.  Fury might, but not if she's going with a certain bard.

Yeah prepromoted works. Easier to get kills that way. I never thought of that since I always rescue spam in ch2 for promo.

Yeah Ch4 has a cluster of wind mages in like the first half and Ch5 has a lot of fire sages, but they only use meteor and you just bop them with Fury. Safest sword would probably be fire but the others would be fine except thunder I guess for chapter 4.

I'm not exactly sure on what the benefits you get from giving Dew more kill options, but it's defintely nice for getting more money and you usually have the swords to spare.

I think it would be fine if you were to give Alec the magic ring first and then decide later on in terms of pairings since they both should have the money to just get it back fine.

I mean actually magic ring Fee is nice for staves and if she has other magic swords on her

Edited April 12, 2019 by A Boy
flame sword

[Baldrick]

11 hours ago, A Boy said:

But you would need to train Levin to 20 if you wanted some of the unique things he has compared to Alec plus you said Sigurd basically does everything. I don't see how training Levin would help when he would probably slow you down in order for him to keep up.

He doesn’t need to promote to have superior 1-2 range. Elysian and Reptor are two situations Sigurd likely won’t be able to handle; Levin can get into position to draw the Cross Knights into the forest while Sigurd assaults Jacoban, and can bait and snipe Reptor while Sigurd runs around the cliff.

[𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥]

18 hours ago, A Boy said:

I'm speaking in terms of Alec is more useful and contributes more than Levin overall.

Levin CAN 1 round enemies with adept or crit but that doesnt mean he WILL. It isn't exactly reliable. He has 30ish% for adept and 12% at base for crit. The chances arent high and he'll mostly just be attacking once.

Critical

Allows user to perform critical attacks with critical rate = (skill + weapons kill bonus)%

Continue

Allows a consecutive attack (similar effect as a Hero weapon)

(Attack Speed +20)%

 

i'm pretty sure Levin can and will kill people in most cases regardless of gear available. that 25 MGC and 27 SKL right there are more than enough to oneshot an enemy with a critical chance of 1 out of 3~4 magic attacks.

i doubt Alec could do the same with a magic sword+magic ring, since he would have less MGC by default.

plus, he would also need the magic sword to be at 50+ kills for the critical chance to be unlocked, while Levin has the Critical skill already on himself.

18 hours ago, A Boy said:

Levin does beat the arena better than Alec but Alec can actually catch up with others in the actual map. Weakening enemies for him is a bit annoying, but at least he can catch up with your main army. Levin isn't going to fight much without a mount and by the time he catches up, Sigurd and the others most likely murdered all the enemies like 2 turns ago. The level gap isn't that big.

Levin can also hold his own against enemy bosses guarding castles due to his capped speed, even without the need to use Holsety.

Alec can?

18 hours ago, A Boy said:

Pursuit ring Levin works but I already stated other units that uses it better than him and why.

the basic combo for a Pursut ring would be an Hero weapon on someone without Pursuit in his/her skill build.

the main candidates usually are either Noish with a Brave sword, or Lex with his Brave Axe.

however, considering that the Critical skill becomes a secondary factor once you unlock 50 kills on any weapon, i'd say Lex would be the main contender since he can get his signature axe in chapter 2 and has all the time to unlock its critical chance by chapter 5( and he's also the only one who can use that axe ).

18 hours ago, A Boy said:

You might as well give the brave sword to Alec if you're deciding between him and Ayra because Alec will actually fight enemies on the map and be able to make more use out of it. I already stated why there's such a big gap between having a mount and not having one.

as much as Levin, she can deal with enemy bosses as well.

Alec can?

i don't think having a mount is all that important if you can't help your army when there's the need to defeat bosses/seize castles in order to move on. but hey, that's just me.

18 hours ago, A Boy said:

Yes Alec needs specific gear to be more useful but Levin doesn't have everything at the start. He has no mount nor pursuit. You suggested the pursuit ring which is better on others and actually will cost more money than the things you need for Alec.

money isn't an issue for Levin. he has Elwind, that's all he needs in order to complete arenas and fight on the map.

Alec can't complete arenas, and he'll need to last-hit enemy units to level up, taking exp from other units in the process, and he'll still need other weapons in order to be decent.

meanwhile Levin will make tons of money from the arenas without issues just by using Elwind, while Alec will have to either visit villages, use a Thief sword, or both.

how do you think i got a Magic ring, a Silence staff and a Life ring on Levin? thats' already 90.000 worth of money. most of it came from the arenas, with some little help from Fury just for the sake of having that Silence staff at 3/3 uses ready for his son. Alec can only dream about that.

19 hours ago, A Boy said:

Azel can usually 2 shot enemies fine. Fire has bad avoid but thunder exists in ch2 and wind in 3. He isn't going to one shot with the magic ring, just 1 round at best which isn't much of a problem with the lighter tomes. 

the problem of Azel is that he'll start with a Fire tome, and if you want a critical chance unlocked earlier, you'll need to use just that for a while. there's also other units like Aideen and Claude that will need tomes, especially if they want to keep up with staffs repair costs after promotion.

it's really a shame Azel can't get Falaflame due to Arvis/plot, otherwise he could have been a top mage as well.

19 hours ago, A Boy said:

You can give the leg ring to Levin or a mounted unit like Sigurd for 12 move in order to beat the chapter even faster which Levin will never reach. I don't see why you would want to try to keep everyone around the same level when you can break the game with much faster speeds.

in that case, you could just stack Sigurd with rings and let him solo the whole map. no need to use Alec or anyone else, for that matter.

19 hours ago, A Boy said:

You can use the rescue staff to move Levin around.

But Alec doesn't need that.

ohoh, i was waiting for this: Levin can cross the mountains in the southern area of Silesia even if he's not promoted. Alec can't.

 

 

this last bit was sponsored by: Mage Boots™~All the comfort you need

[A Boy]

8 hours ago, Fenreir said:

Critical

Allows user to perform critical attacks with critical rate = (skill + weapons kill bonus)%

Continue

Allows a consecutive attack (similar effect as a Hero weapon)

(Attack Speed +20)%

 

i'm pretty sure Levin can and will kill people in most cases regardless of gear available. that 25 MGC and 27 SKL right there are more than enough to oneshot an enemy with a critical chance of 1 out of 3~4 magic attacks.

i doubt Alec could do the same with a magic sword+magic ring, since he would have less MGC by default.

plus, he would also need the magic sword to be at 50+ kills for the critical chance to be unlocked, while Levin has the Critical skill already on himself.

Levin can also hold his own against enemy bosses guarding castles due to his capped speed, even without the need to use Holsety.

Alec can?

the basic combo for a Pursut ring would be an Hero weapon on someone without Pursuit in his/her skill build.

the main candidates usually are either Noish with a Brave sword, or Lex with his Brave Axe.

however, considering that the Critical skill becomes a secondary factor once you unlock 50 kills on any weapon, i'd say Lex would be the main contender since he can get his signature axe in chapter 2 and has all the time to unlock its critical chance by chapter 5( and he's also the only one who can use that axe ).

as much as Levin, she can deal with enemy bosses as well.

Alec can?

i don't think having a mount is all that important if you can't help your army when there's the need to defeat bosses/seize castles in order to move on. but hey, that's just me.

money isn't an issue for Levin. he has Elwind, that's all he needs in order to complete arenas and fight on the map.

Alec can't complete arenas, and he'll need to last-hit enemy units to level up, taking exp from other units in the process, and he'll still need other weapons in order to be decent.

meanwhile Levin will make tons of money from the arenas without issues just by using Elwind, while Alec will have to either visit villages, use a Thief sword, or both.

how do you think i got a Magic ring, a Silence staff and a Life ring on Levin? thats' already 90.000 worth of money. most of it came from the arenas, with some little help from Fury just for the sake of having that Silence staff at 3/3 uses ready for his son. Alec can only dream about that.

the problem of Azel is that he'll start with a Fire tome, and if you want a critical chance unlocked earlier, you'll need to use just that for a while. there's also other units like Aideen and Claude that will need tomes, especially if they want to keep up with staffs repair costs after promotion.

it's really a shame Azel can't get Falaflame due to Arvis/plot, otherwise he could have been a top mage as well.

in that case, you could just stack Sigurd with rings and let him solo the whole map. no need to use Alec or anyone else, for that matter.

ohoh, i was waiting for this: Levin can cross the mountains in the southern area of Silesia even if he's not promoted. Alec can't.

 

 

this last bit was sponsored by: Mage Boots™~All the comfort you need

I could make a counter to the counter, but for the sake for this thread not being flooded (unless you want to continue this), I'm just going to say that those are really nice boots and I want them.

[eclipse]

I'm enjoying this thread discussion, since it's pertinent to the linked document!

[A Boy]

Ok well if you put it that way

I will state that I think you're really valuing critical a lot more than you should for units like Azel and Levin.

It seems a bit unnessecary to let Azel keep using Fire just for crit when he can just use Wind or Thunder (that'll definetly help him double things like archers and some sword users) and 1 round enemies fine and plus he can just use stronger tomes like Elfire.

I wouldn't praise critical so much on Levin either since the chances are still low unpromoted and after promotion, he gets pursuit and eventually Forseti and he 2 shots most enemies with Elwind. Critical can help for some bosses, but those are just a few compared to hundreds of enemies you face not to mention that you gotta drag Levin to do something that Sigurd can probably do 2 turns earlier.

Levin getting a critical hit out of 3-4 magic attacks isn't amazing when he's struggling to keep up with the army. Alec may struggle to one round without critical, but at least he's able to fight more enemies than Levin and contribute more with his nice chip while Levin kills just a few bosses at best.

You can not value a mount as highly, but there are several other units that are fine boss killers so there isn't much point in dragging Ayra to the boss when Sigurd can with little problem. Alec can at least help Sigurd handle the enemies around the boss while Ayra lags behind.

Levin can get all the money he wants from the arena but still no mount to be able to catch up with the others plus leg ring isn't exactly the best choice when Sigurd is around.

I'm just assuming based on your counters, but I think you're kinda focusing too much on just how much Levin can reliably kill compare to Alec. Obviously a trained Levin will be able to kill more but the lack of a mount really hampers him and forces you to wait for him if you want him to kill a boss that others can probably do. Alec doesn't have the same boss killing potential, but he's still able to travel with the army and fight generic enemies fine. Being able to keep up with the fast pace Sigurd while contributing nice damage for all enemies in the way is defintely more valuable than having to wait for a unit to catch up to kill 1 or 2 bosses. Not like 100 kill silver sword exists or anything.

 

 

[Flere210]

Lewyn does sometimes important in a couple of instances(fighting bandits in his joining chapter or beating raptor.) Alec.does barely important things all the time unless you baby him and give him a ring that would clearly be better on Erynis or Lackesis that have both staff and magic combat on top of actually having more reliable ORKO with a magic sword. Sigurd can already solo the maps, a bosskiller for the few thing that Sigurd struggle againist seems much more usefull than someone that can chip enemies that would die anyway on the next enemy pahse when they try to fight Sigurd or another one of the actually good mounted units. It's not like you have only 2 cavaliers, you have a bunch of them that can do a variety of stuff. There is very litle that Alec only can do, if anything.

Noish has good skills wich make him a good father and pursuit ring user, Midir has near uncontested acess to busted bows because brigid has yewfelle and Jamka is slower,  Alec has... horseslayer tanking? A niche magic sword build that Erynis can pull off better due to better base,growth and promo gain of magic on top of staff utility?

Alec has Forde syndrome but even worse, he is not useless by any mean but is rock bottom as a cavalier and he is never a particoularly good father. Horse emblem ia not so exagerate that the weakest mounted is still better than the best unmouted imo. 

[𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥]

3 hours ago, A Boy said:

I will state that I think you're really valuing critical a lot more than you should for units like Azel and Levin.

It seems a bit unnessecary to let Azel keep using Fire just for crit when he can just use Wind or Thunder (that'll definetly help him double things like archers and some sword users) and 1 round enemies fine and plus he can just use stronger tomes like Elfire.

the "kills farming" for the Fire tome is meant only to have an early critical chance unlocked. the whole point for that is to have Azel boosted earlier just for the sake of it, as a matter of preferences.

otherwise, other units can get the kills they need, and he can just use Elfire without issues. that way he'll simply trade an early critical chance for a default damage increase later on.

3 hours ago, A Boy said:

I wouldn't praise critical so much on Levin either since the chances are still low unpromoted and after promotion, he gets pursuit and eventually Forseti and he 2 shots most enemies with Elwind. Critical can help for some bosses, but those are just a few compared to hundreds of enemies you face not to mention that you gotta drag Levin to do something that Sigurd can probably do 2 turns earlier.

Levin getting a critical hit out of 3-4 magic attacks isn't amazing when he's struggling to keep up with the army. Alec may struggle to one round without critical, but at least he's able to fight more enemies than Levin and contribute more with his nice chip while Levin kills just a few bosses at best.

just a few? there's 3~4 castles per map, each one with a boss defending it.

up to chapter 5 it's about 15 bosses on castles already. if we also include enemy groups with secondary bosses and enemy units that can be recruited, the number goes even above 30. if we skip the first 2 chapters, it's about 23 bosses left.

Sigurd won't get his Tyrfing until chapter 5, so unless you go stacked with rings and a silver sword with 50 kills, he will need all the help he can get in order to kill bosses and seize castles.

you need to do that in order to progress in the game, Levin can help with that, Alec can't. simple as that.

and it's not like you'll need to drag Levin around for a whole map. using a rescue staff a couple of times when it's needed can be more than enough to keep him around for enemy groups.

3 hours ago, A Boy said:

You can not value a mount as highly, but there are several other units that are fine boss killers so there isn't much point in dragging Ayra to the boss when Sigurd can with little problem. Alec can at least help Sigurd handle the enemies around the boss while Ayra lags behind.

only if he's been feeded with exp, otherwise he's only able to fight with brigands attacking villages. Levin does not need babysitting.

besides, Alec's chip damage isn't something amazing either, especially when there's already other units that can do a better job at dealing damage/killing enemies and tanking too, like Beowulf or Noish.

3 hours ago, A Boy said:

Levin can get all the money he wants from the arena but still no mount to be able to catch up with the others plus leg ring isn't exactly the best choice when Sigurd is around.

Sigurd isn't the best choice either, since in terms of utility a dancer with a Leg ring is far more valuable than a horseback unit with 12 movement, due to the dancer being able to unlock 4 units at once after they moved.

3 hours ago, A Boy said:

I'm just assuming based on your counters, but I think you're kinda focusing too much on just how much Levin can reliably kill compare to Alec. Obviously a trained Levin will be able to kill more but the lack of a mount really hampers him and forces you to wait for him if you want him to kill a boss that others can probably do. Alec doesn't have the same boss killing potential, but he's still able to travel with the army and fight generic enemies fine. Being able to keep up with the fast pace Sigurd while contributing nice damage for all enemies in the way is defintely more valuable than having to wait for a unit to catch up to kill 1 or 2 bosses. Not like 100 kill silver sword exists or anything.

one is supposed to always(and only) deal with generic enemies both before/after promotion by dealing chip damage. has a wider reach in order to keep up with the main army, and eventually help villages far away when needed.

the other is supposed to deal with generic enemies and bosses before/after promotion by actually killing them, and even heal allies/debuff enemies after promotion. all of that comes with the only downpoint of being on foot, wich means someone else will have to take care of enemy groups/reinforcements trying to seize our castle.

by now, i thought it should have been quite obvious that these units have different roles, hence why it was pointless to compare them to begin with, like i already said before.

 

guess i'll leave the discussion to someone else for the time being, i'm sure you would prefer to hear different opinions from other people as well.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Fenreir

[General Horace]

One thing you listed incorrectly in your origninal post was that magic swords have 12 MT at range, they actually have 14, they essentially just cast Elfire/Elwind/Elthunder/Lightning and they all have 14MT.  Alec can't really assume to have proc'd two magic points on promotion though, even going off averages he's not even that likely to have 1 by that point, so the numbers kinda work out either way.  Alec with +2 magic however does ORKO all the armours in chapter 3 with the light sword, which is something basically only hero weapons can do, since your mages won't be able to keep up, and the armourslayer isn't a great weapon.  

You want Alec (or Noish) to use the light sword over Ethlin or Fury for a few reasons though.  You want Ethlin with your main squad to actually heal them/return staff them, and she needs to buy the pursuit ring to replicate the performance here as well, I know a lot of people pass it down to Leaf anyway so it's not a huge deal but it's not something I prefer.  Fury is flat out not good at killing the cross knights with the light sword though.  She doesn't get the avoid boost from the forest and is 2HKO'd by the Javelins at base.  She also only has 1 base magic and has 0 chance of promoting for her magic boost in chapter 3.  Lachesis is unlikely to promote in most playthroughs by this point but if she is there's no reason for her not to do it.  Even unpromoted she's not a bad choice, but her durability is shaky until promotion.  Dew is a nice meme play but isn't efficient in the slightest, your team will catch up before he kills too many of them, and having Dew keep his money neuters a few other units money early on which isn't too good either.

Levin himself can do it, but the main reason a light sword unit kills the cross knights is to build kills on the light sword, with 50+ kills on it it's one of if not the best weapon for Celice in gen 2.  Levin also needs the pursuit ring, and I'd argue that Noish is a better choice for that and if Ethlin takes it with her in chapter 3 he can't use it for the rest of the generation, which hurts his offence very badly.  

Levin's' bosskilling is almost a total non-factor.  Sigurd with the power ring + Hero Sword ORKO's every single boss in the generation after Levin joins (except Langbalt) without any crit on the weapon, and you have other units like Lachesis that can keep up with him and help chip in if he gets screwed over by great shield.  Levin has Holsety for a grand total of 4 (!) bosses, one of which is Vaha and is an absolute pushover, one of which he's not reaching because he's busy actually getting Holsety in chapter 4.  Levin is very good against Langbalt, but as long as someone like Elwind!Azel or even Thoron Lachesis chip him beforehand, Sigurd can bring him down pretty easily with the armourslayer.  The only boss i'd argue Levin is useful against is Reptor since he can either neutralize him by sleeping or silence him or get warped to the desert castle and fight him over the wall with Holsety, but if Sigurd's Hero Sword has crit by this point, you don't really need him to do that either.  

Alec at the very least has the entire generation to contribute, and while he isn't fantastic all the time, he's always around and can contribute and be reletively useful in the prologue, chapter 1, and chapter 3 (he's not very good in chapter 2, 4 or 5).   Levin just can't keep up with your team, and his super overkill offence just simply isn't needed in gen 1.  

I'm personally more partial to investing in Noish as he can contribute much better after chapter 3 than Alec since his skills and statspread are more useful going forward (provided he gets the pursuit ring), but Alec is no slouch either.

Edited April 14, 2019 by General Horace

[A Boy]

2 hours ago, Fenreir said:

guess i'll leave the discussion to someone else for the time being, i'm sure you would prefer to hear different opinions from other people as well.

Oh I only wanted to initially stop because I thought some people wouldn't want just 2 people going back and forth. If you want to continue in some other way, I wouldn't mind that.

[Flere210]

I have difficulty raising Alec to promotion by chapter 4 because he suck in the arena and does not ORKO much, so i feel like you need some spoonfeeding to get him ready to kill those knights. And i also don't understand why do you have to kill those knights with the light sword when you have several maps to get 50 kill. Can't you just give the sword to a random ORKO machine and get them naturally? I am not accustomed to optimizer LCT strats, and i feel like spoonfeeding Finn would be better so he can Jeigan the second gen(i also try to grind Ethlyn every time because i hope to see her slaughter Travant squad one day, but this is clearly not optimizzation lol), or Lachesis because Lolmasterknight. Even Noische would be better because he is a top contender for the pursuit ring anyway and with it he is better than Alec in almost every way(except speed, but gen1 enemies have super low AS).

Edited April 14, 2019 by Flere210