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Analysis of Armoured Units being added to Heroes


Icelerate
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21 hours ago, Icelerate said:

At launch, we had 5 armoured units (Draug, Hector Sheena, Gwendolyn and Effie). That is 3 females and 2 male despite male armours being far more in number. The waifu bias is real. 

In 2017, Zephiel, Amelia, Arden and Black Knight were added. Amelia is a girl, Arden is a popular meme and BK and Zephiel are popular FE villains so these were all safe picks. 

So by the end of 2017, we had 9 non seasonal armoured units. 

In 2017, we also got winter armour units, Chrom, Robin, Lissa and Tharja as well as H!Jacob and H!Henry. So we got 6 seasonal armours and only 4 regular armours, so there is already a bias for fake armours over actual armours in 2017. 

Thus the total number of armoured units at the end of 2017 is 15. 6 of them are seasonal and 9 of them are real, so far so good. 

In 2018, we got Zelgius, Hardin, L!Hector, B!Hector, M!Grima and Surtr as canonical armoured units. While the status of M!Grima is questionable, I think it makes sense. That's 6 new canon armours which seems like an improvement until you see that Zelgius is an alt, both Hectors are alts and Surtr is an OC. The reason why I'm lukewarm of being happy with these aforementioned units representing canonical armours is because it doesn't help us represent the existing armours within the span of all the FE games.  

In 2018, we also got LA!Lyn, LA!Hector,  LA!Eliwood, L!Tiki, H!Myrrh, H!Kagero, H!Niles, H!Dorcas, B!Ephraim, W!Fae, W!Ephraim, W!Eirika, W!Cecilia as non canonical armours. That means we got 13 non canonical armours. Yikes!

In total, by the end of 2018, we have 34 armours in total. Of those 32, 19 are non canonical armours and 15 are canonical armours so the number of non canonical armours has surpassed canonical armours. 

As of April 20, 2019, we got Duma, Idoun and Caineghis as canonical armoured units. We got V!Ike, V!Greil, P!Lucas, P!Flora and P!Felicia as non canonical armoured units. 

Thus, so far in 2019, we got 3 canon armours and 5 non canon armours

This brings us up to a total of 42 armours. 18 canonical and 24 non canon. As for the 17 canonical armours, we got an OC (Surtr), 3 alts (Zelgius, L!Hector and B!Hector) and 4 questionable choices (Duma, M!Grima, Idoun and Caineghis). So the pure canon armour representation in this game is just 9 characters

Why is this a problem? 

Well we have 24 canon traditional playable armours yet to be added, not counting beasts/dragons, along with a bunch of NPCs, most of the NPCs are probably too niche and obscure to add, so I'm not expecting them. So if it takes over two years for IS just to add 9 armoured units (the launch 5, Zephiel, Amelia, Black Knight and Hardin), at this rate, it'll take another 6 years to add them all. But since traditional armoured characters are being replaced by legitimate beast/dragon choices along with alts, we'll be lucky if IS adds even two new traditional armoured characters in the game per year, because in 2017, we got 4 (Zephiel, Amelia, Ardin, Black Knight) while in 2018, we only got Hardin. If IS adds two new traditional armoured units per year, it'll take 6 whole years just to get 12 of those 24 canonical armours in the game. This doesn't even include the Three Houses armoured units which will also have to be added. 

Is the game even going to last 6 years? Will Tauroeneo ever be added to the game? 

I'm going to play devil's avocate and bring an important counter argument: what's the point of adding all the canonical armours if they are going to be similar to each other in the end?

Like it or not, armor units in Fire emblem are very similar. They all use the same three weapons across multiple games, at least infantry units have a much greater variety of weapon to choose from. Which is why a lot of armored seasonals have new type of weapons like bow, dagger, tomes or even staff now.

But then you have the canonical armours with their sword, lance or axe. Nothing you haven't seen before. Which means the only way you can make them different is with their stats or their skills.

Sadly, armors units have even less variety of stats to choose from since almost all of them except Amelia and P!Felicia are slow. They also in general have decent or high HP, decent or high Attack, good or high Defense and decent, good or bad Resistance.

Which means only skills and unique weapons are their saving grace. 

It's similar to the situation with lance fliers or sword infantry, we went to pretty much everything: frail, tanky, defense oriented, res oriented, speedy, slow, dual phase, dual bulk.

 

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Meg could look worse. I don't consume a lot of Japanese media but I know fat characters typically only exist as a punching bag outside of the Sumo culture which is its own thing. They even fat shamed our design for Godzilla. Just lay off. He doesn't need to comply with your conformist body types.

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59 minutes ago, Nym said:

Sadly, armors units have even less variety of stats to choose from since almost all of them except Amelia and P!Felicia are slow. They also in general have decent or high HP, decent or high Attack, good or high Defense and decent, good or bad Resistance.

But they do sometimes break with norms when deciding how units will play out in FEH.

Sheena never had good Resistance b/c very few did in Archanea, yet here she is a splendid mixed tank. Florina was the fastest Peg in FE7, and yet here she is glacially slow, while the sluggish Subaki got much faster. Effie was also notable for a really good Spd growth for an Armor, just lacking at base due to class and base, yet here she is outright slow. Seliph was one of the only units with Resistance in FE4, yet here he is poor on that front.

They can be creative and mess with how things actually were to spice it up on the BST side.

 

59 minutes ago, Nym said:

Which is why a lot of armored seasonals have new type of weapons like bow, dagger, tomes or even staff now.

And yet they gave us on Regal Rabbits a boring old and plentiful Lance Flier- why? If they can get away with that, why not throw us a canon Armor? 

A canon Armors, if deemed the demote for the banner, would at least add to options available to players in general.

Furthermore, what difference does it make if a New Heroes has a Sword Infantry or Lance Armor? None. If anything, it favors the Armor due to us presently having less than those. Canon only has so many weapon-class combos, there will be a lot of redundancy going purely on canon.

Seasonals cannot fix this inherent fact, unless the game scraps New Heroes altogether. But doing so with what is presently far less than full inclusion of FE's heroes, would be an insult to those who play this as a celebration of FE as a whole, both the big games and names and the small. I am one of these players. The novel creation of a Red Bow Armor means diddly squat to me if it's Jill shooting Habanero Ice Cream. I on principle want everyone even if it means nearly doubling the Sword Infantries to ~77 units.

 

19 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

The armored classes for EO are at least a bit more standardized amongst the dudes and the gals, and it's mainly the fanservice-looking classes that are ... well, less equal.

*Eyerolls at Necromancer and Yggdroid who lusts after robots?*

Although even then, in a few rare instances we do get some nice things. Like the shirtless male Dancers in IV (although this is a point for you in how tasteless the girls look), and the Old Woman Rover in V. I also felt the Dark Hunter females looked tasteful despite the immorality aesthetic of the class (not so much for Nightseeker though), and the Wildlings made an attempt to balance the sexes- men being shirtless but with pants, the females having tops, but not pants. And similarly, Necromancer has muscular ripped shirt males, it's just the females are so much worse.

 

 

 

And I'm going to agree with the sentiment that Meg doesn't look that bad.:

Spoiler

meg_en.png

She is fat, but not an Oliver lardy cake deep fried in bacon fat. It has form within boundaries, it does not overflow.

As for her head, the only other thing not covered in armor until FEH, the parentage of Brom is clear, and she otherwise looks ordinary. Which isn't bad, just plain with a hint of cute. And it does fit with her character ending:

"Wayfaring Country Girl – Meg

Meg had an ordinary marriage in her village and had an ordinary family. Her house was always full of laughter."

 

I mean I can get her being bad in gameplay, and her being derived from a comical support convo in PoR. With her attempts to woo Zihark, most of what little we see of her character due to no real Supports in RD (they could've helped her) being a poor joke and inappropriate given Zihark's tragic and serious reasons for not loving any other woman beyond the one he once cherished. But visually, she isn't a trainwreck.

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1 hour ago, Nym said:

I'm going to play devil's avocate and bring an important counter argument: what's the point of adding all the canonical armours if they are going to be similar to each other in the end?

Like it or not, armor units in Fire emblem are very similar. They all use the same three weapons across multiple games, at least infantry units have a much greater variety of weapon to choose from. Which is why a lot of armored seasonals have new type of weapons like bow, dagger, tomes or even staff now.

But then you have the canonical armours with their sword, lance or axe. Nothing you haven't seen before. Which means the only way you can make them different is with their stats or their skills.

Sadly, armors units have even less variety of stats to choose from since almost all of them except Amelia and P!Felicia are slow. They also in general have decent or high HP, decent or high Attack, good or high Defense and decent, good or bad Resistance.

Which means only skills and unique weapons are their saving grace. 

It's similar to the situation with lance fliers or sword infantry, we went to pretty much everything: frail, tanky, defense oriented, res oriented, speedy, slow, dual phase, dual bulk.

 

As mentioned, the 3-4* available armors right now are so sparse that pretty much any stat spread on a demoted new armor wouldn't be doubling up on the spreads we have now.  Even giving us a stereotypical slow sword wielding armor wouldn't be anything like Draug, our only 3-4* Red armor, who is actually pretty fast by armor standards.

The armor saturation is nowhere no problematic, unlike infantry swords or lance fliers, which we still get regularly.

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

But they do sometimes break with norms when deciding how units will play out in FEH.

Sheena never had good Resistance b/c very few did in Archanea, yet here she is a splendid mixed tank. Florina was the fastest Peg in FE7, and yet here she is glacially slow, while the sluggish Subaki got much faster. Effie was also notable for a really good Spd growth for an Armor, just lacking at base due to class and base, yet here she is outright slow. Seliph was one of the only units with Resistance in FE4, yet here he is poor on that front.

They can be creative and mess with how things actually were to spice it up on the BST side.

When I was talking about stats, I talked only about Heroes. What stats they have in their respective game doesn't matter for what the discussion is about. Save that for maybe if someone wants to point out in their Heroes incarnation doesn't represent proprely their game incarnation.

My point was that the armor class in Heroes has even less freedom than the other movement class in term of variation between stats. They might be some oddballs like Amelia or P!Felicia having great speed or Sheena having great Res but the majority of them are similar stats spread which is an issue since I doubt the non added canonical armor units will be different since armor units in various FE games all have the same strengths and weakness: High or decent Attack, high or decent HP and Defense, slow and have bad RES or rarely decent.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And yet they gave us on Regal Rabbits a boring old and plentiful Lance Flier- why? If they can get away with that, why not throw us a canon Armor? 

I'm not IS, can't answer to that. But all new Easter units are flier except Bruno so... the classic lance flier had to be here I guess?

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

A canon Armors, if deemed the demote for the banner, would at least add to options available to players in general.

Furthermore, what difference does it make if a New Heroes has a Sword Infantry or Lance Armor? None. If anything, it favors the Armor due to us presently having less than those. Canon only has so many weapon-class combos, there will be a lot of redundancy going purely on canon.

Seasonals cannot fix this inherent fact, unless the game scraps New Heroes altogether. But doing so with what is presently far less than full inclusion of FE's heroes, would be an insult to those who play this as a celebration of FE as a whole, both the big games and names and the small. I am one of these players. The novel creation of a Red Bow Armor means diddly squat to me if it's Jill shooting Habanero Ice Cream. I on principle want everyone even if it means nearly doubling the Sword Infantries to ~77 units.

I never said it won't add options, but it might cause them to  overshadow someone. Just glance at Rudger or Haar to see how overshadowed they are despite being new. And yes I know their GHB but my point would stand unless they have broken skill.

36 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

As mentioned, the 3-4* available armors right now are so sparse that pretty much any stat spread on a demoted new armor wouldn't be doubling up on the spreads we have now.  Even giving us a stereotypical slow sword wielding armor wouldn't be anything like Draug, our only 3-4* Red armor, who is actually pretty fast by armor standards.

The armor saturation is nowhere no problematic, unlike infantry swords or lance fliers, which we still get regularly.

Not sword armor since it's the less popular weapon type for armors but lance and axe are starting to saturated if you take in consideration sesonals.

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1 minute ago, Nym said:

Not sword armor since it's the less popular weapon type for armors but lance and axe are starting to saturated if you take in consideration sesonals.

I don't count seasonals, because what we need in particular is units that are easily available for merging purposes in the 3-4* or 4-5* people (i.e. demoted normal units).  Seasonals you aren't going to be +10ing any time soon, unless you're miraculously lucky or are the biggest of whales.

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

*Eyerolls at Necromancer and Yggdroid who lusts after robots?*

Although even then, in a few rare instances we do get some nice things. Like the shirtless male Dancers in IV (although this is a point for you in how tasteless the girls look), and the Old Woman Rover in V. I also felt the Dark Hunter females looked tasteful despite the immorality aesthetic of the class (not so much for Nightseeker though), and the Wildlings made an attempt to balance the sexes- men being shirtless but with pants, the females having tops, but not pants. And similarly, Necromancer has muscular ripped shirt males, it's just the females are so much worse.

The Yggdroids in particular are so bad. I just prefer to pretend they don't exist.

From my recollections (and looking through Nexus's portrait options), classes that are typically "front line fighters" or anything that uses a physical weapon have pretty uniformly covering outfits. For the ronin and pugilist classes at least, the guys seem to show more skin. Except for EO4's medic class, which has its female characters in something like a schoolgirl outfit, the healer types are pretty even.

Really, it's only things like necromancer, yggdroid, dancer and troubadour, nightseeker, the one female rover, and maybe warlock and arbalist who are the biggest offenders. And all of those are backliners who shouldn't be near the front and have a bit of an excuse. A lot better than giving Benny a normal armor while Effie doesn't have pants and has her underwear visible, or female cavaliers and great knights not wearing pants while guys do.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Meg, but that's personally because I think she was not a very good character in addition to being a poor unit. Her thing was lusting after Zihark because Brom told all his daughters about him, and refusing to leave Daein even after it begins fighting with Crimea because she believes Micaiah is a good person. (My dear, I believe that is treason, no matter how much you may like Micaiah.) Her crush thing on Zihark wouldn't have bugged me so much if there was actually a point to it, but there isn't. For as long as they interact in the story, she insists that she will be his wife and Zihark never brings up that he can no longer love a woman who was not his laguz ex-girlfriend, so this really didn't add anything to either character.

But really, she should be in Heroes either way.

Edited by Sunwoo
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5 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I don't count seasonals, because what we need in particular is units that are easily available for merging purposes in the 3-4* or 4-5* people (i.e. demoted normal units).  Seasonals you aren't going to be +10ing any time soon, unless you're miraculously lucky or are the biggest of whales.

Even if you don't count seasonals --which ironically enough add something unique to armor class for the most part-- asking for units only for them to be overshadowed doesn't help. Again, just take a glance at Rudger or Haar to see what happened when you don't give them something special.

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5 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

Thanks, but I already knew that. I just found that idea a bit amusing. I wasn't trying to shit talk Ippei or his work in any way with my previous comments if that's the idea you got.

That's fine, I was just curious why you thought Ippei's style would be amusing when it's pretty conventionally attractive when it comes to women.

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54 minutes ago, Nym said:

Even if you don't count seasonals --which ironically enough add something unique to armor class for the most part-- asking for units only for them to be overshadowed doesn't help. Again, just take a glance at Rudger or Haar to see what happened when you don't give them something special.

There's lots of units that have been demoted which are still good, like Ares, Soleil, or Reyson.  It would be hard to not be better are at least on par with the launch units.  The real crime is the units that aren't that great, but still don't get demoted.

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3 hours ago, Nym said:

Like it or not, armor units in Fire emblem are very similar. They all use the same three weapons across multiple games, at least infantry units have a much greater variety of weapon to choose from. Which is why a lot of armored seasonals have new type of weapons like bow, dagger, tomes or even staff now.

Does no one remember that Generals can use Bows in Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776. Unfortunately the Baron and Emperor class from those game is enemy only, which limits the canon staff and tome using Armoured units to bosses unlikely to enter the game (Although I still hold out hope for an Emperor class Arvis).

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36 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

There's lots of units that have been demoted which are still good, like Ares, Soleil, or Reyson.  It would be hard to not be better are at least on par with the launch units.  The real crime is the units that aren't that great, but still don't get demoted.

I am not saving that all demoted units are bad Rezzy.

Again my point is if you add nothing special to units of the same weapon type in the same movement type and if some have the same role or niche, one will overshadow the other. I wouldn't want that for my favorite units.

5 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Does no one remember that Generals can use Bows in Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776. Unfortunately the Baron and Emperor class from those game is enemy only, which limits the canon staff and tome using Armoured units to bosses unlikely to enter the game (Although I still hold out hope for an Emperor class Arvis).

Never played those two games, I don't know much of it outside of Genealogy having a lot of unique mechanic and being Horse Emblem simulator.

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I remember the days I thought about Arvis being the first armored mage. Oh boy how wrong I was, those where the days. xD
Reading all this kind of makes me wonder why they didn't add Kjelle, the strange design of Awakening armors aside, which can be fixed with the right art I guess she has everything they apparently want for a canon Armor unit in FEH. xD

Reading a bit about Meg I think she really would have potential, I often think canon armored units regardless male or female have difficulties in a looking good contest. The armor always takes away something, especially awakening armors. Well, it does not change the fact that male armors follow a certain troupe I guess. 

I did not have all in my mind so I needed to take a look again, but if I should pick canon male generals based on looks I would pick: Benny, Oswin and Ignatius (Don't be fooled by his fates portrait)

Its like with Vaida, her character portrait makes her look strange, compared to that her artwork looks better. I guess one reason is the details on her face which made it difficult with these amount of pixel. Some characters are just not that photogenic. But ok, she is off-topic. xD 

 

Edited by Stroud
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If two axe armour and one lance armour seasonal can be added in this year, there’s no reason more canon lance and axe armours can’t be added.

17 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Does no one remember that Generals can use Bows in Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776. 

I remind people every time I bring up Xavier

The DS games also have now-wielding generals, Lorenz is even one of the more popular Archanea characters not yet in.

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2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

The Yggdroids in particular are so bad. I just prefer to pretend they don't exist.

I started with EO4, when I heard the term "Yggdroid", I thought they sounded so cool. Only much later did I learn how awful they were in gameplay. And then I saw the artwork, and my dreams of them were crushed like walking blindly into a 6th Stratum superboss. How did they get it so wrong? Why not try some techno-gaian fusion of machine and verdant tree? Some people complain of Himukai's FEH artwork, the Yggdroid has nothing good going for it.

 

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Really, it's only things like necromancer, yggdroid, dancer and troubadour, nightseeker, the one female rover, and maybe warlock and arbalist who are the biggest offenders.

Female Warlocks aren't too bad. No pants, but the thing that gets me more is it looks like the staff they are wielding is suggestively being held and pointed at their life magic zone. But maybe I'm just of a dirty mind.

Also Gladiator I think qualifies as bad.:

Spoiler

1000?cb=20150627125730

The men are excellent, with a measure of androgyny in the redhead (neither a good or bad thing), but the girls have issues. Besides having only bras on, the pinky is in her underwear, the other has pants thank goodness, but she lacks the ferocious expression of the pink one, undermining the leaping-at-you pose.

 

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

A lot better than giving Benny a normal armor while Effie doesn't have pants and has her underwear visible, or female cavaliers and great knights not wearing pants while guys do.

Then I'm lucky I usually play Fates with animations off and don't use Effie in FEH. Nor have I seen her official artwork- if it has been released yet. I don't know if it has or not, or if the Pellucid Crystal artbook releasing in a few days- April 25th- will have it. So I've never really noticed her lack of groin protection.

 

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, I'm not a big fan of Meg, but that's personally because I think she was not a very good character in addition to being a poor unit. Her thing was lusting after Zihark because Brom told all his daughters about him, and refusing to leave Daein even after it begins fighting with Crimea because she believes Micaiah is a good person. (My dear, I believe that is treason, no matter how much you may like Micaiah.) Her crush thing on Zihark wouldn't have bugged me so much if there was actually a point to it, but there isn't. For as long as they interact in the story, she insists that she will be his wife and Zihark never brings up that he can no longer love a woman who was not his laguz ex-girlfriend, so this really didn't add anything to either character.

Well they had to have a "trainee armor" I guess from a gameplay perspective. Since the Dawn Brigade is supposed to have all the tier 1 units of RD with "potential on their side", and it wouldn't feel complete without an armor, just as Jill and Fiona fulfilled the quotas of one tier 1 flier and one tier 1 cavalier.

Brom wouldn't have worked, nor Gatrie, nor Tauroneo- the first two wouldn't go to Daein, and the third is a former Steadfast Rider- too experienced to demote to tier 1. Thus, they invented Meg. But they didn't have to invent her specifically, they could've invented a native Daeinian or anything else to be the tier 1 armor.

And again, I can agree she is a weak character. If RD had actual Supports, maybe she could have been good. The Zihark could have gone: "Pookums! Uh... no thanks." "Pookums? Sorry, I can't no matter what." "Sir Zihark, thank you. Meg, there is certain to be a good man out there who would love to have you.". That would have allowed her to grow and mature past it. Other supports could more subtly state "I came to Daein for love at Daddy's suggestion, I'm staying for something else.",  that "something else" being whatever she finds by the end of the support and is meaningful and fulfilling to her.

-But unfortunately, said hypothetical Supports don't exist, so I can't call Meg a strong character or anything near it. At most, I can call her "charming"- which is to say shallow, but I like that little something about them. Not saying she is charming for me, only that that is the best she could be.

 

26 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Does no one remember that Generals can use Bows in Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776.

11 & 12 Generals too, they were Lance & Bow for some reason. Could give the personality-free Macellan a niche.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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On 20/04/2019 at 7:23 PM, Etheus said:

In regards to this, I can't say I'm too disappointed by that. If they add Gilliam, I'm good. Aside from him, armoe knights tend to be my least favorite class with my least favorite character designs.

 

I'm more frustrated with the slow rate of canon characters and the excessive rate of non canon ones in general. It's a sorry state of things because most of their non-canon character designs just... fucking suck.

You may dislike armoured units character designs but its leagues better than the non canon ones. 

On 20/04/2019 at 6:53 PM, Von Ithipathachai said:

I'm not even sure if we can expect that many of those to make it in at all.  Of them, I can only see Roger, Oswin, and Gatrie having decent chances of making it in, maybe Meg and Tauroneo too.  Actually, I'd say Meg is a pretty reasonable pick for a new canon playable Armor character because (1) she's sort of a meme character, though not Arden-tier, and (2) she's female.  I can easily see Meg going from bad in her original game to very good in Heroes, not unlike Amelia.

Why are Roger's chances higher than most others? If anything he's not very popular and lacks characterization due to being from Archanae. 

On 20/04/2019 at 7:52 PM, Glennstavos said:

I'm really quite puzzled at these statistics because I think the odds of seeing armor units added to heroes should theoretically be high. Even if they're washboards in terms of personality or butt ugly, they're at least armor units in a fire emblem game where that is not only viable but almost meta dominant. Unquestionably so if they're an armor dragon, but most of these have to stretch the canon a bit as far as what an "armor unit" is. Even the launch day armor units still maintain mid to high tier slots, and they haven't even gotten personal weapons like most of the launch day roster has. They've just been indirectly buffed by the inclusion of armor march and many _____ fighter skills. I feel like the question of "is Valbar popular enough for Heroes" feels like a moot point when he'll make serious money without even trying. Having all these armor units be alts and/or seasonal units just feels like overkill on baiting whales.

I dunno. I used to think we wouldn't see any canonical nomads/horsemen in Heroes but Sue eventually happened. We not only got beast units but within a few short months we're suddenly running out of beast units to add from the series. And 2019 is a net increase in new, non-alt characters over the previous year so there's hope.

IS seems to think they can have their cake and eat it too which is why they only add armoured units in seasonal banners to give popular characters in attractive outfits armoured status to kill two birds with one stone. 

On 20/04/2019 at 7:54 PM, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I think Brom has a chance to piggyback off Meg or Heather, Tauroneo has a chance to piggyback off Jill, and Gatrie off Shinon. Roger, Lorenz, and Horace could come on Archanea banners, Roger for meme power and the other two for importance/popularity. Oswin and Gilliam might have a chance due to importance on Oswin's part, and SS not having a big cast on Gilliam's. Hannibal could MAYBE sneak in, and Douglas could piggyback off Perceval or Larum, and Benny off the eventual Charlotte. I can't see the others making it in, though.

That's still only 12 canonical armored units, only half of the missing characters.

I think Wallace can piggyback off of Kent and Sain who have a chance of getting in due to being Lyn's retainers. 

On 20/04/2019 at 8:28 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Also, I realize I kinda miscounted with the 24 by including Fado while not including Murdock or Bryce, so it's more 23 playables. 

It doesn't matter much because Ludveck, despite not being playable, has enough screen time and story involvement to justify adding him to Heroes. 

 

On 20/04/2019 at 8:29 PM, Florete said:

You missed LA!Eliwood.

Okay I added him. 

6 hours ago, Jave said:

If there is one Tellius character I'm hoping gets drawn by Kita Senri so that their design stays intact, it's her.

I want to see Micaiah get drawn by Senri Kita above all else. 

22 hours ago, Rezzy said:

What's even crazier is that we haven't had a single 3-4* armor unit added to the summoning pool since launch.  We've got the same 4 units that we had then: Draug, Effie, Gwendolyn, Sheena.

 

EDIT: Funny you made this thread, because I was just trying to think who the last "Canon" armor would have been who wasn't an alt, seasonal, or OC.

It's not really that crazy considering we barely got armoured units added to the summoning pool in the first place so the opportunities for demotion are low. 

That would be Hardin but if he doesn't count due to being an alt when considering the fact he originally wasn't an armour, it'd be Black Knight.

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34 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Why are Roger's chances higher than most others?

They aren't, given that he only has a total of 232 votes across all three CYL events. Speaking of, for reference:

Total CYL Votes to Date
Kellam: 4,164
*Old Man Hector: 3,234
Gilliam: 2,908
Benny: 2,677
Kjelle: 2,031
**Forsyth: 1,713
Meg: 1,703
Valbar: 1,693
Oswin: 1,676
Cervantes: 1,547
Gatrie: 1,433
Lorenz: 1,308
Wallace: 1,101
Brom: 1,085
Tauroneo: 687
Murdock, Ignatius: 491 each
Horace: 481
Bors: 439
Fado: 409
Douglas: 363
Lang: 274
Hannibal: 272
Lombard: 267
Dolph: 247
Reptor: 235
Roger: 232
Barthe: 228
Macellan: 215
Raydrik: 171
Desaix: 170
Xavier: 169
Chagall: 113
Dalsin: 99
Massena: 93
Bloom: 92
Danann: 48

*: wasn't on the ballot in CYL3 
**: could be implemented as an armor, but probably won't given original Lukas
Not in CYL at all: Roartz, Lundgren, Darin, Bryce, Ludveck, Raimi, anyone else not listed above

Edited by Tybrosion
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52 minutes ago, Nym said:

I am not saving that all demoted units are bad Rezzy.

Again my point is if you add nothing special to units of the same weapon type in the same movement type and if some have the same role or niche, one will overshadow the other. I wouldn't want that for my favorite units.

Never played those two games, I don't know much of it outside of Genealogy having a lot of unique mechanic and being Horse Emblem simulator.

Short of powercreep, there's pretty much no way to add new niches for several saturated weapon/movement types.  The armor "normal" movement type is by no means saturated.  So even if they added a unit with similar stats to Arden or Zelgius with no great skills for demotion fodder, just being more available would be an improvement to the summoning pool.

They could use the opportunity to give them something like Defense or Speed Tactic that's currently 5* locked, but has it's brethren skills available at 4*.

I think it would be nice if IS could focus on rounding out the SI opportunites over adding more and more powercreep every banner.

23 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

That would be Hardin but if he doesn't count due to being an alt when considering the fact he originally wasn't an armour, it'd be Black Knight.

I'd count Hardin, since his FE3 version is just as valid, if not more than his FE1 version to get added.  Though BK wasn't added to the summoning pool, unless you meant Zelgius.

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Female Warlocks aren't too bad. No pants, but the thing that gets me more is it looks like the staff they are wielding is suggestively being held and pointed at their life magic zone. But maybe I'm just of a dirty mind.

Also Gladiator I think qualifies as bad.:

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The men are excellent, with a measure of androgyny in the redhead (neither a good or bad thing), but the girls have issues. Besides having only bras on, the pinky is in her underwear, the other has pants thank goodness, but she lacks the ferocious expression of the pink one, undermining the leaping-at-you pose.

Yeah, I wasn't really sure what to think about the gladiator. In theory, the darker-haired male has a revealing shirt that shows his chest, but the girls' pose just sort of seems to, uh ... be more suggestive. Also, I didn't notice until now that the pink-haired girl has the stupid battle panties-esque things that female paladins and great knights have.

Aside from them, though, the other front line classes seem to be okay. The warlock was mostly thrown in there as a maybe because the women don't wear pants, even though they totally could.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well they had to have a "trainee armor" I guess from a gameplay perspective. Since the Dawn Brigade is supposed to have all the tier 1 units of RD with "potential on their side", and it wouldn't feel complete without an armor, just as Jill and Fiona fulfilled the quotas of one tier 1 flier and one tier 1 cavalier.

Brom wouldn't have worked, nor Gatrie, nor Tauroneo- the first two wouldn't go to Daein, and the third is a former Steadfast Rider- too experienced to demote to tier 1. Thus, they invented Meg. But they didn't have to invent her specifically, they could've invented a native Daeinian or anything else to be the tier 1 armor.

And again, I can agree she is a weak character. If RD had actual Supports, maybe she could have been good. The Zihark could have gone: "Pookums! Uh... no thanks." "Pookums? Sorry, I can't no matter what." "Sir Zihark, thank you. Meg, there is certain to be a good man out there who would love to have you.". That would have allowed her to grow and mature past it. Other supports could more subtly state "I came to Daein for love at Daddy's suggestion, I'm staying for something else.",  that "something else" being whatever she finds by the end of the support and is meaningful and fulfilling to her.

-But unfortunately, said hypothetical Supports don't exist, so I can't call Meg a strong character or anything near it. At most, I can call her "charming"- which is to say shallow, but I like that little something about them. Not saying she is charming for me, only that that is the best she could be.

Hmm, you're right that they didn't have to make Meg the first tier armor for the Dawn Brigade. They could've just invented a native Daein armor knight who wanted to join with Micaiah because they thought she was the savior of Daein. Meg could've worked in a game with actual supports and a bit more thought into split armies, but ... it didn't. Jill and Pelleas get called out for defecting to the Crimean side, so it's odd that everyone overlooks that Meg basically commits treason as well with seemingly less reason to stay with Daein.

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11 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Jill and Pelleas get called out for defecting to the Crimean side

Wait, when did this happen? Oh happy day! Why didn't Micaiah defect too? How could she possibly be so stupid not to if pathetic pliable putty Pelleas did? The end of RD just might not have happened if she allied with Ike.

I joke of course, you meant Zihark. Although as a tangent, Pelleas having blue hair not only aligns with Ashnard, but does make him visually related with Ike. The two being both blue-haired, but totally different characters.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Wait, when did this happen? Oh happy day! Why didn't Micaiah defect too? How could she possibly be so stupid not to if pathetic pliable putty Pelleas did? The end of RD just might not have happened if she allied with Ike.

I joke of course, you meant Zihark. Although as a tangent, Pelleas having blue hair not only aligns with Ashnard, but does make him visually related with Ike. The two being both blue-haired, but totally different characters.

Fuck, I did mean Zihark XD;

That said, Pelleas for Heroes when

Edited by Sunwoo
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15 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

They aren't, given that he only has a total of 232 votes across all three CYL events. Speaking of, for reference:

Total CYL Votes to Date
Kellam: 4,164
*Old Man Hector: 3,234
Gilliam: 2,908
Benny: 2,677
Kjelle: 2,031
**Forsyth: 1,713
Meg: 1,703
Valbar: 1,693
Oswin: 1,676
Cervantes: 1,547
Gatrie: 1,433
Lorenz: 1,308
Wallace: 1,101
Brom: 1,085
Tauroneo: 687
Murdock, Ignatius: 491 each
Horace: 481
Bors: 439
Fado: 409
Douglas: 363
Lang: 274
Hannibal: 272
Lombard: 267
Dolph: 247
Reptor: 235
Roger: 232
Barthe: 228
Macellan: 215
Raydrik: 171
Desaix: 170
Xavier: 169
Chagall: 113
Dalsin: 99
Massena: 93
Bloom: 92
Danann: 48

*: wasn't on the ballot in CYL3 
**: could be implemented as an armor, but probably won't given original Lukas
Not in CYL at all: Roartz, Lundgren, Darin, Bryce, Ludveck, Raimi, anyone else not listed above

And this is why Kellam is the only Armor Unit we would expect outside of a Mordecai case of being carried for other popular units.

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On 4/20/2019 at 5:12 PM, Icelerate said:

and 4 questionable choices (Duma, M!Grima, Idoun and Caineghis).

On 4/20/2019 at 7:16 PM, Xenomata said:

So to put it in brief...

~The last canon armor we got was Surtr, who is a Heroes OC.

~The last canon armor we got who can be considered an Armor unit, or at least a Knight/General derivative, is Hardin.

~The last canon Knight/General we got was Arden.

~The last canon Knight/General we got who is part of the normal summoning pool is Amelia.

This is, of course, working under the assumption that Grima, Duma, Idunn, and Caineghis are not true Armor units, as the former 3 are final bosses who do not move (or at least don't seem to like to), while the latter wasn't anything like an Armor unit in his original game.

A reminder that Zephiel is not weak to armor-effective weapons in his source game. He is considered armored because he has the same movement range as armored units in his source game, not because he is weak to armor-effective weapons (because he is not). Hardin is in the same situation.

As such, Grima, Duma, Idunn, and Tiki all qualify as armors by virtue of having less movement range than an infantry unit (and not flying).

Caineghis is the only non-seasonal armor in the game that "doesn't count" in his source game as he shares the same movement range as all other Beast Tribe units.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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43 minutes ago, Troykv said:

And this is why Kellam is the only Armor Unit we would expect outside of a Mordecai case of being carried for other popular units.

How do the remaining armors line up numbers wise against the other units not in game yet?

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