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Quickpawmaud

Why do people hate armor knights in this game?

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3 hours ago, Armchair General said:

Dude, halving damage would make the game easier than it already is. We already have Barons shrugging off arrows.

But then again, these skills should be enemy-exclusive.

Three quarters of the way in both Gaiden/Echoes: SOV almost all enemies in game are magic users. It wouldn't be overpowered at all especially compared to Dread Figthers Apotrope and +5 resistance...

Enemy Bow users in both Gaiden and SOV are terrible, with their range, they never target Barons anyhow, so that skill was worthless for all except the enemy.

EDIT:

20 minutes ago, Quickpawmaud said:

I have only played Shadow Dragon and the 3DS games. Although I have not finished a game yet and only played the first few chapters in Shadow Dragon. Never used knights in Shadow Dragon yet but in Valentia they seem the worst I have seen so far. Possibly because of the fewer class options maybe they have always sucked but because there were more classes they did not stick out as much. I have always liked knights and tanky/defensive playstyles and characters in games.

Knights/Generals are very good in Shadow Dragon, though of the natural/non reclassed ones, only Draug and Dolph are really any good.

I'd say Awakening is the worst incarnation of the Armor Knight/General and in general(he), it seems fans agree that Awakening's version of the class has nothing going for it.

Genealogy of the Holy War's Generals for example look awesome and kick ass in the hands of enemy.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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23 minutes ago, Quickpawmaud said:

I have only played Shadow Dragon and the 3DS games. Although I have not finished a game yet and only played the first few chapters in Shadow Dragon. Never used knights in Shadow Dragon yet but in Valentia they seem the worst I have seen so far. Possibly because of the fewer class options maybe they have always sucked but because there were more classes they did not stick out as much. I have always liked knights and tanky/defensive playstyles and characters in games.

Well, take it from me, they're much better off in this game than in Genealogy of the Holy War or Binding Blade. In those games, they can't do ANYTHING because they have low movement, and high movement is pretty much necessary to get anywhere fast, what with the big maps. And Binding Blade in particular has the worst armors in the franchise.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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I never really looked at tier lists much in awakening and their max stat caps were pretty high so I made it work pairing them with flyers and such to get around. I grinded a lot though without grinding flyers and knights seem like they would suck. They also have an armor weakness and most people dislike axes.

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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Just now, Quickpawmaud said:

I never really looked at tier lists much in awakening and their max stat caps were pretty high so I made it work pairing them with flyers and such to get around. I grinded a lot though without grinding flyers and knights seem like they would suck.

Their max stat caps aren't so high in Awakening. Losing swords to Great Knights and losing good resistance was a dumb decision from Awakening, as was basing pavise around skill.

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Just now, Quickpawmaud said:

I am probably stupid I made everyone I could into a general even Sophie.

There's nothing wrong with using bad classes/characters, I do it all the time.

Also Fates Generals are good.

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They did not seem as good when I played it. I did not really have a favorite class in that game I used all of them. My favorite character was Arthur though so maybe hero was my favorite class.

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Just now, Quickpawmaud said:

They did not seem as good when I played it. I did not really have a favorite class in that game I used all of them. My favorite character was Arthur though so maybe hero was my favorite class.

Perhaps you made the wrong characters, Generals? Its good to have slow characters get the class and wary fighter.

 

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13 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I'd say Awakening is the worst incarnation of the Armor Knight/General and in general(he), it seems fans agree that Awakening's version of the class has nothing going for it.

I see this and raise you Binding Blade. While its maps may not be as big as Genealogy's, they're big enough that you'd need a mount to get anywhere in a timely fashion. And this is ignoring that the units in the class themselves are rather bad.

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Yeah that is probably why I did not like it as much as Corrin makes a terrible general in that game when I did well with Robin. I like Effie though.

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2 minutes ago, Quickpawmaud said:

Yeah that is probably why I did not like it as much as Corrin makes a terrible general in that game when I did well with Robin. I like Effie though.

If you wanna make a good general Corrin, give him terrible speed.

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I see this and raise you Binding Blade. While its maps may not be as big as Genealogy's, they're big enough that you'd need a mount to get anywhere in a timely fashion. And this is ignoring that the units in the class themselves are rather bad.

Ba_fe06_bath_general_axe_critical.gif

They at least look cool as opposed to "Fat Man Armor", note term taken directly from the english  localization, that trip over their own feet when they attack.

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2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

If you wanna make a good general Corrin, give him terrible speed.

Ba_fe06_bath_general_axe_critical.gif

They at least look cool as opposed to "Fat Man Armor", note term taken directly from the english  localization, that trip over their own feet when they attack.

Looking cool doesn't mean a damn when you're completely abysmal in every conceivable way.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Lol what is that chain axe? Also I think he makes a terrible one just because my ocd won't let me make him a class that can't use swords. It would be like making Chrom an archer just ugh.

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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1 minute ago, Quickpawmaud said:

Lol what is that chain axe?

Ba_fe06_bath_general_lance_critical.gif

The GBA Generals use chain weapons.

By the way, were you aware of the General class having the weapon master status in many games?

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3 minutes ago, Quickpawmaud said:

You mean having all weapons like Great Knight?

Yes, it was Generals long before Great Knight and Great Knights having more weapons then Generals was a stupid decision made by Awakening.

 

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1 minute ago, Quickpawmaud said:

Well don't hate Awakening too much it saved the series after all. Without it Fire Emblem would be dead.

Not this again..

Anyway, thats off topic.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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For what it's worth Generals do have the highest max attack (tied with Berserkers) and defense in Awakening, but their exclusive skills are more defensive...And situational.

But as for Barons in SoV, they're just there for holding the line as someone else rains down arrows or magic. After that it's Rescue time.

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After reclassing Valbar into Dreadfighter after getting the bases from Baron I just do not see a gameplay reason to use Barons. Does the overclass do anything to make them better?

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46 minutes ago, Quickpawmaud said:

After reclassing Valbar into Dreadfighter after getting the bases from Baron I just do not see a gameplay reason to use Barons. Does the overclass do anything to make them better?

The Baron’s over class gets a skill called Phalanx, which gives the user a chance to negate all damage.

It seems like an alright skill, considering it blocks chip damage if it activates, and if it works on magical attacks too (the description doesn’t give any evidence to indicate otherwise) but other than that, Spartan doesn’t seem to do much else.

And Barons do get a skill that halves damage from bows, but it’s not very useful considering they usually have more than enough defence to keep archers doing only one damage anyway.

As for the actual topic of this thread, I actually like using the Soldier class line in this game, and Armour Knights are probably my favourite class in the series. But they do have massive weaknesses, particularly their low movement, which is especially bad in echoes, because Alm’s path has massive maps that can leave your barons in the dust, and Celica’s route features deserts and swamps that hinder their movement, once again leaving them unable to contribute. 

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They are my favorite class along with cavalier I love knights and tanky defensive units. They just seem hard to use especially after trying out Dreadfighter. The bases are amazing though giving a ton of defense and attack. I think I will reclass Valbar back into soldier after finishing Dreadfighter and make both Lukas and Forsyth into cavaliers.

                 HP    ATT    SKL    SPD    LCK    DEF    RES
Forsyth   40      40       30        40      40        30       3
Lukas     50       30       40       25       30        45       2
Valbar     60      40        40      30       25        50      1

As just growths wise it seems like Valbar is most suited to the Knight classline. The others I think would be better as cavaliers just because they are more useful on Alm's larger maps. I will probably end up not using Valbar on the terrain heavy maps. The downside is no one on Celica's side gets warp as far as I know but I gave Valbar the boots so hopefully he will be alright. Sorry for the shitty graph it did not copy paste well.

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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One thing I think is easy to miss is how much mileage armor knights get from combat arts. The major drawbacks to using them is that a) you can't double and b) it costs health. For armor knights, they weren't going to double anyway, and they have the health to spare assuming they're not about to be mobbed by mages. Combat Arts give them a lot of player phase presence when normally these are enemy phase units. 

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4 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

One thing I think is easy to miss is how much mileage armor knights get from combat arts. The major drawbacks to using them is that a) you can't double and b) it costs health. For armor knights, they weren't going to double anyway, and they have the health to spare assuming they're not about to be mobbed by mages. Combat Arts give them a lot of player phase presence when normally these are enemy phase units. 

That’s a good point, I hadn’t thought about that. 

Me, personally, I prefer giving barons the Hexlock Shield to help them out against mages, but that leaves them without a weapon. Then again, in one playthrough, I made Atlas a Baron, and he capped attack pretty easily while still maintaining a decent defence stat (what 25% growth rate lol). He was an absolute beast, even with only 9 speed (6 after the hexlock shield) at the endgame.

I’ve always had a tendency to use bad classes, because it’s all the more satisfying when you succeed with them. Either way, echoes is generally a forgiving enough game that you can make any unit any class and succeed regardless. Now if only we were given more pitchforks to play around with...

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Armour knights just don't have good move. A lot of the time they're hardly doing anything, especially with map size etc

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