Is fanservice inherently bad?

[Flere210]

2 hours ago, Johann said:

 

• Sexualization of female characters can shape the way the audience views women (and themselves if they are a woman), which in turn can affect how they behave towards women. This includes objectifying real women, valuing appearances over their other qualities, etc.

I seriously doubt that this can be aplied to FE in particular. No one would use Amelia in any remotely efficient playtrought, no matter how cute they find her, wich tell us that apperence is indeed not that important.

2 hours ago, Johann said:

 

• Real women can choose to dress any way they want, but fictional women do not have agency. Video games are largely designed for and by straight men. A real woman's appearance is generally a form of self-expression; a fictional woman's appearance is usually a straight man's fantasy being pushed onto women.

Fiction is entirely pushing your fantasies into your fictional characters, every creator do that.

What is the difference beetwen Sandro Botticelli "The birth of Venus" and Camilla, outside of the fact that one artist is far better than the other?

 Every Artist has an Idea of what beauty is, and they usually strive to replicate that. I don't think that drawing your own ideal of beauty is enought to push it on others. 

1 hour ago, Johann said:

The problem is that straight men have overwhelming creative control in all media forms, and overwhelmingly cater to other straight men. If you're someone who doesn't like sexually objectifying stuff (for whatever reason and to whatever degree), you're out of luck because it's extremely difficult to avoid. Women deal with sexist shit every day of their lives, is it so much to ask for to give them the same escapist fun of games, movies, etc without subjecting them to even more?

I am asexual and i don't like fanservixe myself, but i don't see how fanservice is "extremely difficult to avoid" unless you include the very mild forms(tbf i mostly play retro games). It's difficult to avoid if you are into weeb stuff that mostly cater to the waifu crowd, that is certainly true.

And sure, you are entitled to fun escapism, but i am not sure if removing fanservice is the way to go. Why not balanced fancervice for everyone instead? Or new IP aimed at women? Making gaming in general more appealing to women does not necessarily mean that fanservice games need to change/die, they may stay as a niche imo. 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Flere210

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

What is the difference beetwen Sandro Botticelli "The birth of Venus" and Camilla, outside of the fact that one artist is far better than the other?

I would have named the Venus of Urbino instead if I had to pick a fine artwork. Although Manet's Olympia which imitates it is not the same due to her less than sultry expression with gives her strength.

And certainly there are feminist art circles that have criticized the male gaze and the male-dominated production of female nudes since, probably the '60s. 

[Hawkwing]

It depends on the context.

Looking at non-sexual fanservice first, it can often be used well as a call-back to something that happened in a previous game/movie/book/etc. to show that the creators care about continuity, and they can acknowledge popular fan theories and productions, regardless if they turn out to be true or not. In cases where the game/movie/book/etc is meant to be a celebration of the franchise or the finale, then having lots of fanservice makes sense

Where this kind of fanservice falters is if it is used as a crutch to convince fans to buy the product instead of doing something knew or having it stand on its own feet. It also doesn't work well when the fanservice is only their to check off a checklist to "make the fans happy" instead of being added for benevolent reasons (such as, again, acknowledging past products and their fans).

***

As for non-sexual fanservice, well in a perfect world, I'd say it shouldn't exist at all, but we don't live in a perfect world, so we have to deal with the lack of modesty. Admittedly, that's more me yelling at characters for not wearing appropriate armor, and how in a real fight, they would be bruised, bloody, and disemboweled, and probably missing a limb.

Anyway, this kind of fanservice is not inherently bad, per se, but it is pretty easy to do wrong. I'd say that the ways of doing fanservice right include:

A. There is a character reason for why they dress as they do. This can either be stated outright or merely hinted at.

B. It's optional. It can't always be the case, given the time, money, and resources it takes to create new models and the like, but giving the player the choice in this area is always a good thing.

And

C. It is never the forefront of their character, or the first thing people immediately think of when the character is mentioned

This isn't a universal set of rules, of course, but most of the time, fanservice is criticized when there isn't a good reason for why a character is dressed that way, it is difficult to ignore or avoid, and when it's one of the most noticeable aspects of the character. There are other reasons for criticism (for example, female Byleth has a different design from male Byleth, despite the latter having a design that could work for both genders), but that's a general gist of it.

[Johann]

34 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

A fair enough point I suppose but I still think it’s a bit more complicated than that. Like I know this isn’t really much evidence so take it with a grain of salt but my sister can look at mortal kombat all day but the minute I get a paper cut she avoids me like the plague just to not see it. Again I feel it’s way more gray than you seem to be making it out to be

That people can be influenced is true enough, but the results aren't uniform or predictable, nor is the whole thing inherently good or bad. It just "is". A better example of the violence would be watching a movie where a vigilante hero shoots bad guys and thinking "maybe I should buy a gun", "if I were in a similar situation, maybe I could do that too", "I'm ok with bad guys being killed by vigilantes", just to name a few. None of those thoughts are inherently good/right or bad/wrong, not will everyone think them, and it's certainly possible that nobody makes any actions based on them. But over time, similar exposure can have compounded influence, which can shape how we see the world and people around us, and how we treat them. For instance, if Muslims are always portrayed as terrorists in TV and movies, people may begin to perceive Muslims as threatening. Becoming more aware of the media we take in can help us be aware of how it's shaping us and mitigate negative influences.

Quote

True but does that make fanservice an inherently bad thing? No, not really. That just means some people are uncomfortable with seeing it and I don’t know about you but that sounds more like a personal subjective problem than it is an objective criticism. Like just because you don’t personally like something that doesn’t mean it is objectively bad. I will agree that more diversity in the creative fields is a good thing and that people deal with distcrimination a lot which is bad. Nothing wrong with more people engaging in escapist video games and such(even though good art is a reflection of reality rather than an escape from it) but fanservice is not inherently mysognistic and neither is it misandranistic. I mean would you say the same of porn? cause they’re effectively trying to do the same thing that is titilate the audience. 

Assuming we're keeping the realm of fanservice in the realm of sexual objectification (which is what kicked off the thread), then yeah I'd say the negatives outweigh the positives. This isn't an empirical claim, but I'd argue that people who enjoy it are outnumbered by the combination of people who don't enjoy it plus people who may face negative impacts due to it's influence. There's nothing inherently wrong with someone getting their kicks from some specific content in a game or whatever, but when it comes at the expense of other people's basic enjoyment of the whole thing, then that added content at least deserves some scrutiny. Consider how few women have posted in this thread. I know for a fact that there are plenty of women on this forum who have voiced their opinions on this subject before, only to be belittled by men who fervidly defend fanservice. That's not on everybody who enjoys fanservice but it's certainly a negative impact brought about or reinforced by it.

Sexual objectification is inherently dehumanizing, and therefore inherently misogynistic/misandristic. It literally means to degrade a person (or in the case of fiction, a character) to a sexual object. Porn is unique in that titilation is the entire point, it's why a person seeks it out. However, most porn is also objectifying and misogynistic and it doesn't have to be.

5 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I seriously doubt that this can be aplied to FE in particular. No one would use Amelia in any remotely efficient playtrought, no matter how cute they find her, wich tell us that apperence is indeed not that important.

I haven't played Sacred Stones, but is Amelia sexually objectified? It doesn't seem like she is, in which case this is a faulty argument. Either way it's not really related to what it quoted, which is about how people treat real women & girls.

5 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Fiction is entirely pushing your fantasies into your fictional characters, every creator do that.

What is the difference beetwen Sandro Botticelli "The birth of Venus" and Camilla, outside of the fact that one artist is far better than the other?

 Every Artist has an Idea of what beauty is, and they usually strive to replicate that. I don't think that drawing your own ideal of beauty is enought to push it on others. 

I'll say it again: The problem is that the creators are overwhelmingly straight men, and that the content being created is overwhelmingly catered to straight men. As such, men have a stronger role in determining how women are perceived than women themselves.

5 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I am asexual and i don't like fanservixe myself, but i don't see how fanservice is "extremely difficult to avoid" unless you include the very mild forms(tbf i mostly play retro games). It's difficult to avoid if you are into weeb stuff that mostly cater to the waifu crowd, that is certainly true.

Don't know what to tell you, it's everywhere, and not just in Japanese media & games.

5 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

And sure, you are entitled to fun escapism, but i am not sure if removing fanservice is the way to go. Why not balanced fancervice for everyone instead? Or new IP aimed at women? Making gaming in general more appealing to women does not necessarily mean that fanservice games need to change/die, they may stay as a niche imo.

Sexually objectifying men doesn't resolve the problems created by sexually objectifying women, nor would segregating content to "for men" and "for women". The result would be a narrow male perspective of what content for women should look like. The solution is more/better representation for women, both as creators and characters.

[Phoenix Wright]

i think it's a sliding scale. tiki is definitely fanservice, but there's a difference between tiki and camilla.

it usually takes away from the immersion, makes the character less interesting, erases any semblance of seriousness in the plot, and looks ridiculous. so yes, i think fanservice is bad--bad because it's lazy and gets people to not care about the things that make consumers care about the things that make a story good.

a character being sexual is not fanservice. dressing in sexual ways is not inherently fanservice. but 99/100 it's done because it's easy, not because that's how the character was designed.

[DragonFlames]

14 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I thought this did happen, but it burned out very quickly.

Figures. Surprised that it burned out, though, considering Nowi is still a point of contention today.

[Tediz64]

First off I'd like to give a shout out to a few of the people who posted. Only in serious discussion can I find in-depth, sophisticated, and intellectual opinions and a conversation around a topic that is otherwise as "fun" as can be in any kind of debate. I mean seriously everyone, we are debating fanservice. Not abortion. Yet look at these heavy responses. I love you all. If I was a teacher in social sciences at a university, I'd cried and think "you make me so proud. All grown up and talking with each other like this" followed by giving a few of you A's while some others get B's and C's. 

@eclipse, @XRay, @Ottservia, @DragonFlames, @Sasori, @Johann, 

I loved your metaphor XRay. I'm so going to use it in the future. 

Now my contribution to this topic. I also want people to understand that my position is complex and intricate but overall I'm arguing being practical and pragmatic.

10 hours ago, Johann said:

It's really difficult to find games, movies, etc that don't, which is frustrating for anyone who doesn't want that, which is a lot of people.

You had mention this "straight men selling to other straight men" and that we are the minority yet we own and control most forms of media. And in this quote I removed a section at the bottom briefly mentioning stagnation and no growth in sales. So my argument to this point you nicely brought up for me is that against your claim is the following; you are S.O.L. buddy but don't give up hope. Your kind (not trying to say that provoking you or in an aggressive manner) simply need to compete against straight men and build up businesses that can sell. You claim to have a larger audience to be able to sell to and America, plus Japan if I'm not mistaken, use a capitalist style form of economy so stop whining and get to creating. Before you know it, our market and kind will be out of business. Or more than likely, we will stay in business and only make sales of the audience that cares about this type of product. I'll discuss men, misogyny, and social engineering in a second regarding how to fix "straight men" and their perspective of women (and their treatment)

Also I'd like to add this, I totally feel for you if you think for a spilt second and want to bring up the counter argument, "but I want to see the stuff I love in a style that I want" so like for example fire emblem without fanservice. I get ya, because for a long time I wished Nintendo would sell at least a 1/4 of the rights to Pokemon to Sony or Microsoft so that I can see a more advance and adult version of the franchise I love. How cool it'd be to see a dating sim feature added to Pokemon (like back when Sinnnoh let you travel with people. I had the idea back then. What if we were a couple ) or maybe even more graphic brutal fights between Pokemon. I know it sounds radical but I think seeing it just once would satisfy me for life. So I get that you want the stuff you love to be the way/style you want. 

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

True but does that make fanservice an inherently bad thing? No, not really. That just means some people are uncomfortable with seeing it and I don’t know about you but that sounds more like a personal subjective problem than it is an objective criticism. Like just because you don’t personally like something that doesn’t mean it is objectively bad. I will agree that more diversity in the creative fields is a good thing and that people deal with distcrimination a lot which is bad. Nothing wrong with more people engaging in escapist video games and such(even though good art is a reflection of reality rather than an escape from it) but fanservice is not inherently mysognistic and neither is it misandranistic. I mean would you say the same of porn? cause they’re effectively trying to do the same thing that is titilate the audience. Different media appeals to different people cause we all have different tastes and if you find one thing that doesn’t appeal to you then you can just go find something else to engage in. That’s the beauty of art. There are so many different creators creating all different kinds of art and experiences that appeal to all kinds of people. If you personally find it it uncomfortable just simply engage in something else that better suits your taste.

I really want to back this opinion up strongly because I also think some people are scared of embracing things that are sometimes socially unacceptable such as deviations from the norms. If you don't want to see it, then don't look at it. I want to see it. Kinda like earlier when I mentioned the graphical brutal fights of Pokemon. I'm sure plenty of people would raise hell and say that should be taboo, but artistically it should be created and accepted because it's an expression that some might be able to enjoy and like and those of us who'd like it, aren't bad people just for liking extreme art. Or rather I should say, art that might not suit the taste of many. I said it once and I'll say it again, we rule this platform but we aren't stopping you (people who agree with and sympathize Johann's cause) from entering it. Create the media to rival ours and leave the group who currently likes this stuff to ourselves. Don't try to take it away and then socially engineer us to think and feel bad for liking this. I'll admit some art I partake in sexually objectifies women, but as a whole, I also indulge in art and have learned from people like Johann trying to educate individuals that the art I enjoy should be left at that. Just art. Don't let it cross over into reality and don't treat women in a unethical or immoral way. I watch, read, and collect stuff that could be considered vanilla and not even sexual because I see the beauty in all different forms. Let me be less vague and give examples so you get what I mean.

I like nurse and maid hentai. I understand that the community who likes that can border being unethical in it's treatment toward women if they feel or think women are obligated to dress up that way or they are supposed to cater to men. I understand how doujins could reinforce those ideas. I've educated myself on all that. I'm sure I have room to learn more and to be careful of my behavior and attitude towards women. But guess what? There are some girls who like to dress up. Some who based off how they are raised (including culture, values, and roles in a relationship they were taught) might even want to fulfill the fantasies of cosplaying for a guy if they were in a relationship or we're simply looking for a fling. Am I or that girl inherently bad or hurting anyone? Do we match and is it possible for us to build functioning relationship on that similiar interest? Yes it is. In this big world there are different kinds people (our population sits at 8 billion humans) and finding someone who'll be the right match for you isn't that inconceivable. But as an educated person I also learned that, if in the event I never find a match that would be willing to do some of the stuff I've picked up along the way looking at certain art forms, I shouldn't force it on anyone and should simply accept the fact that it was something on my bucket list I never got to do. Regrettable but not the end of the world. I'll move on. 

I encourage you Johann to keep spreading awareness so that you end up with healthy wholesome people similar to me. (not that I'm petting my own ego or that I think highly of myself but I strive toward being good. I use the phrase or motto "Would my mom be proud of who I've become or what I'm doing"). But don't make people feel bad for enjoying what they like. 

7 hours ago, Johann said:

Consider how few women have posted in this thread. I know for a fact that there are plenty of women on this forum who have voiced their opinions on this subject before, only to be belittled by men who fervidly defend fanservice. That's not on everybody who enjoys fanservice but it's certainly a negative impact brought about or reinforced by it.

Sexual objectification is inherently dehumanizing, and therefore inherently misogynistic/misandristic. It literally means to degrade a person (or in the case of fiction, a character) to a sexual object. Porn is unique in that titilation is the entire point, it's why a person seeks it out. However, most porn is also objectifying and misogynistic and it doesn't have to be.

Regarding the first paragraph, I agree with you that they should not be swatted away for their opinion and that all people should become more open minded and try to compromise on the topic.

But I'm going to have to argue your second paragraph. Women and men do it both (in different ways) and while I agree it is bad and both need to stop, only if you mean in regards to treatment outside any type of artistic medium. Everyday conversation at work for example, women and men shouldn't be alienating one another and need to become more aware of how certain attitudes and behavior is bad. At school, in public, and so forth, we need people to stop. But porn and other mediums thru which one expresses art, being sexualized isn't bad. It's simply a form of taste that caters to an audience. I think the key point here is education. 

Now I'm done with most of my points and I don't think I missed anything. So if anyone would like to counter them, I'm open to discussing it. As far as my answer to the thread itself, I believe fanservice and it's existence isn't inherently bad or unwelcome. I do think it is sad for the fans who love fire emblem that it is going to be prevalent despite their protests. That they are very upset by it's existence to the point where some boycott the game or dont enjoy it because some part of it killed it for them. I grieve for you all. Okay I'm done grieving (I gave y'all a few seconds), I need to go enjoy me some fanservice at your expense 

Maybe one day you'll have what you want and I'll be the one whining. When that time comes, all I ask if that you feel sorry for me for like 5 seconds (and be genuine about it. I was for you guys. I did seriously feel bad for a bit) then move on. Life goes on ya know? 

[DragonFlames]

51 minutes ago, Tediz64 said:

the art I enjoy should be left at that. Just art. Don't let it cross over into reality and don't treat women in a unethical or immoral way.

You make excellent points and I am in total agreement. Just felt the need to point out that this bit in particular should be common sense to anyone with a halfway functional brain. You can replace "women" with "every single human being regardless of gender, race, sexuality, hobby, or religion" and the statement is still very, very true.

Also, I want to reinforce the point that no one should feel ashamed for what they enjoy and no one has any right to shame others for what they enjoy, either.
I speak from experience when I tell you that being shunned for what you like is really f***ing terrible. Do not EVER mention publicly that you enjoy Pokémon (or any video game that isn't Fifa or a "serious" FPS) between 6th to 10th grade (which is about equivalent to American middle school, I think), people! You WILL be on the receiving end of severe bullying. It's cool in university, though, funnily enough.

Lastly, thanks for the "A", "B", or "C" (whichever you want to give me).

[Tediz64]

59 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

You make excellent points and I am in total agreement. Just felt the need to point out that this bit in particular should be common sense to anyone with a halfway functional brain. You can replace "women" with "every single human being regardless of gender, race, sexuality, hobby, or religion" and the statement is still very, very true.

Also, I want to reinforce the point that no one should feel ashamed for what they enjoy and no one has any right to shame others for what they enjoy, either.
I speak from experience when I tell you that being shunned for what you like is really f***ing terrible. Do not EVER mention publicly that you enjoy Pokémon (or any video game that isn't Fifa or a "serious" FPS) between 6th to 10th grade (which is about equivalent to American middle school, I think), people! You WILL be on the receiving end of severe bullying. It's cool in university, though, funnily enough.

Lastly, thanks for the "A", "B", or "C" (whichever you want to give me).

Oh yeah. I meant to encompass all people. I just focused on the word woman because in regards and relation to this thread and topic. 

I get what you mean. I have another interest other than maid and nurse but I almost never mention it unless I've known the person for more than a year and trust them to a certain degree. I get scared of the backlash and it makes me angry I can't share my interest with others because of the negative perception that accompanies it. But I've learned to keep loving it in moderation, to keep it to myself, and to just enjoy life the way it is and the fact that I even have the luxury to see my interest from time to time being created by certain artist in the fan doujin world. Not to stir up anyone's imagination on what it is lol. Like I said, it's just art and people misunderstand where my affection stems from when it comes to this genre. But I got really tired of explaining it to others since sometimes, even after all that talking, they still talk mess. 

I wish we could discuss stuff like this at a university. I tried making an anime club at mine so we could mingle and make new friends but most people make a friend then never show up again. You'd get an A btw 

[Ottservia]

14 hours ago, Johann said:

Assuming we're keeping the realm of fanservice in the realm of sexual objectification (which is what kicked off the thread), then yeah I'd say the negatives outweigh the positives. This isn't an empirical claim, but I'd argue that people who enjoy it are outnumbered by the combination of people who don't enjoy it plus people who may face negative impacts due to it's influence. There's nothing inherently wrong with someone getting their kicks from some specific content in a game or whatever, but when it comes at the expense of other people's basic enjoyment of the whole thing, then that added content at least deserves some scrutiny. Consider how few women have posted in this thread. I know for a fact that there are plenty of women on this forum who have voiced their opinions on this subject before, only to be belittled by men who fervidly defend fanservice. That's not on everybody who enjoys fanservice but it's certainly a negative impact brought about or reinforced by it.

5 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

You had mention this "straight men selling to other straight men" and that we are the minority yet we own and control most forms of media. And in this quote I removed a section at the bottom briefly mentioning stagnation and no growth in sales. So my argument to this point you nicely brought up for me is that against your claim is the following; you are S.O.L. buddy but don't give up hope. Your kind (not trying to say that provoking you or in an aggressive manner) simply need to compete against straight men and build up businesses that can sell. You claim to have a larger audience to be able to sell to and America, plus Japan if I'm not mistaken, use a capitalist style form of economy so stop whining and get to creating. Before you know it, our market and kind will be out of business. Or more than likely, we will stay in business and only make sales of the audience that cares about this type of product. I'll discuss men, misogyny, and social engineering in a second regarding how to fix "straight men" and their perspective of women (and their treatment)

I have to agree with tediz here. I think there's something more people need to understand in regards to how art is consumed. NOT ALL ART IS MEANT FOR EVERYONE. This is reminding me of the whole sekiro difficulty debacle so I'm gonna frame it like that. Should Sekiro have an easy mode? No, no it shouldn't because that would completely compromise the creator's artistic vision for their game. The director for these games has gone on record to say he wants the worlds he creates to feel bleak and unforgiving and a high difficulty is how he goes about creating that feeling within the player. To say that difficulty shouldn't be there or that the game should have an easy mode to make it more accessible would be an insult to his artistic integrity. does that make you wrong for disliking the game's high difficulty? No, no it doesn't. It just means that kind of experience does not appeal to your personal taste which is totally fine. I am not trying to devalue your opinion. If you don't like that kind of game go play something else because that game clearly was not made for you and that is ok. A game does not have to cater to everyone's personal taste. Horrors movies aren't for everyone. I dislike horror movies and horror elements in movies(kind of) but does that mean they shouldn't exist? No because there are people out there who do enjoy that stuff and I would be a terrible person if I took that away from them. I mean if I'm bothered by it I'll go watch something else that better suits my tastes. 

Also if there's one thing I've learned as an aspiring creator, if you don't like what's out there go learn the necessary skills and make it yourself. No one's stopping you so do it. Go out there and create something that you would enjoy and think other people would enjoy. Don't just complain about it do something about it. Actions and sales figures speak louder than words. Not to say criticism doesn't have it's place in media and artistic consumption but with an argument as subjective as this yeah that's not really criticism.

I say again just because you personally don't like it that doesn't make it objectively terrible. When you critique art, I am of the belief that you should critique it for what's trying to be not for what you think it should be. I would never criticize a game like senran kagura for its fanservice. Why? because that's the entire reason you bought the game to begin with. It's exactly what it says on the tin so to complain about it would be completely missing the point. 

To sort of jump back on the fanservice topic a little, Yoko Taro, the director/writer of nier automata, had this to say when asked about 2B's somewhat sexual design:

"But the biggest reason is that I just really like girls" 

Now my question is he misogynistic for saying that? I don't think so. He just likes cute girls and wanted to put one in his games  He isn't being misogynistic he is just creating something he enjoys which just so happens to be a cute anime android girl. And that's totally fine. He is well within his rights to create that. He isn't hurting anyone. It doesn't take away from any of the game's deep themes or messages. It just exists because he wanted it there and is that so wrong? No, I don't think so.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Ottservia

[Rose482]

Hmmmm, Is it inherently bad? No.

I believe there is a time and place for everything, same goes for fanservice, but it could get annoying if it became too much.

[DragonFlames]

4 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

Oh yeah. I meant to encompass all people. I just focused on the word woman because in regards and relation to this thread and topic. 

I get what you mean. I have another interest other than maid and nurse but I almost never mention it unless I've known the person for more than a year and trust them to a certain degree. I get scared of the backlash and it makes me angry I can't share my interest with others because of the negative perception that accompanies it. But I've learned to keep loving it in moderation, to keep it to myself, and to just enjoy life the way it is and the fact that I even have the luxury to see my interest from time to time being created by certain artist in the fan doujin world. Not to stir up anyone's imagination on what it is lol. Like I said, it's just art and people misunderstand where my affection stems from when it comes to this genre. But I got really tired of explaining it to others since sometimes, even after all that talking, they still talk mess. 

I wish we could discuss stuff like this at a university. I tried making an anime club at mine so we could mingle and make new friends but most people make a friend then never show up again. You'd get an A btw 

Justifying yourself in front of people that don't get it is only going to hurt you in the long run, because they don't WANT to get it. Again, speaking of experience here (not about hentai, but general JRPG-related stuff). That's just how it goes, sadly.
People can be pretty stupid and intolerant at times. Luckily, not everyone is like that. And luckily luckily, a vast majority of the people here are like you and me, which is why I enjoy this forum so much.
Thanks for the A, by the way! That rhyme was totally not on purpose, though.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

I have to agree with tediz here. I think there's something more people need to understand in regards to how art is consumed. NOT ALL ART IS MEANT FOR EVERYONE. This is reminding me of the whole sekiro difficulty debacle so I'm gonna frame it like that. Should Sekiro have an easy mode? No, no it shouldn't because that would completely compromise the creator's artistic vision for their game. The director for these games has gone on record to say he wants the worlds he creates to feel bleak and unforgiving and a high difficulty is how he goes about creating that feeling within the player. To say that difficulty shouldn't be there or that the game should have an easy mode to make it more accessible would be an insult to his artistic integrity. does that make you wrong for disliking the game's high difficulty? No, no it doesn't. It just means that kind of experience does not appeal to your personal taste which is totally fine. I am not trying to devalue your opinion. If you don't like that kind of game go play something else because that game clearly was not made for you and that is ok. A game does not have to cater to everyone's personal taste. Horrors movies aren't for everyone. I dislike horror movies and horror elements in movies(kind of) but does that mean they shouldn't exist? No because there are people out there who do enjoy that stuff and I would be a terrible person if I took that away from them. I mean if I'm bothered by it I'll go watch something else that better suits my tastes. 

Also if there's one thing I've learned as an aspiring creator, if you don't like what's out there go learn the necessary skills and make it yourself. No one's stopping you so do it. Go out there and create something that you would enjoy and think other people would enjoy. Don't just complain about it do something about it. Actions and sales figures speak louder than words. Not to say criticism doesn't have it's place in media and artistic consumption but with an argument as subjective as this yeah that's not really criticism.

I say again just because you personally don't like it that doesn't make it objectively terrible. When you critique art, I am of the belief that you should critique it for what's trying to be not for what you think it should be. I would never criticize a game like senran kagura for its fanservice. Why? because that's the entire reason you bought the game to begin with. It's exactly what it says on the tin so to complain about it would be completely missing the point. 

To sort of jump back on the fanservice topic a little, Yoko Taro, the director/writer of nier automata, had this to say when asked about 2B's somewhat sexual design:

"But the biggest reason is that I just really like girls" 

Now my question is he misogynistic for saying that? I don't think so. He just likes cute girls and wanted to put one in his games  He isn't being misogynistic he is just creating something he enjoys which just so happens to be a cute anime android girl. And that's totally fine. He is well within his rights to create that. He isn't hurting anyone. It doesn't take away from any of the game's deep themes or messages. It just exists because he wanted it there and is that so wrong? No, I don't think so.

 

You just restored some of my faith in humanity. Thank you!

Artists should get the freedom to create whatever the hell they feel like and only they should have a say in what they create. Imposing one's idea(l)s on an artist and DEMANDING they follow them to a T is a pretty dickish thing to do. At least that's what I think.

[Tediz64]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Also if there's one thing I've learned as an aspiring creator, if you don't like what's out there go learn the necessary skills and make it yourself. No one's stopping you so do it. Go out there and create something that you would enjoy and think other people would enjoy. Don't just complain about it do something about it. Actions and sales figures speak louder than words. Not to say criticism doesn't have it's place in media and artistic consumption but with an argument as subjective as this yeah that's not really criticism.

 

Let me add on this just a tiny bit. (directed to the readers in general who come to this forum) did you know that the porn industry is suffering because of what they call "exhibitionist" and the rise of it. Legitimate porn companies are tanking thanks to the growing community on Pornhub and various other sites popping up amateur porn by making it homemade. And the porn industry isn't the only one.

Every day more than 3 doujins on various sites are uploaded with aspiring artists creating fanfics, smut, completely original work, and so forth. I mean i visit hentai2read, fakku, hitomi, and a few others that don't even have porn as an element and i see chapters either in the works being translated or new raw ones being uploaded. Like the fanfic for the ps2 game Radiata Stories. So tying this back in to the thread/topic, i wouldn't be shocked if in about 20 years, the sheer volume and number of games made are all starting to get the rating T for Tenn or E for everyone. As well as if anime goes in a new direction with less fanservice. I'm sure people will say one day, "enough is enough" and then start creating their own and selling that content and advertising it's quality and advantage of not having fanservice. Right now, in games and anime it is a huge trend, but i'm pretty sure it isn't going to stay that way forever and it isn't as bleak as you make it sound @Johann. Everyday that stuff will begin to be looked down on more and more by society and those who enjoy will be forced into the background feeling bad for liking it. I think Johann's argument needs to shift slightly towards looking at this from an artistic POV and be more compassionate towards us. 

When i go to an anime convention, i don't just visit the booths by the dealers who come with japanese product that's official and has the stamp on it, i even pass by the artist gallery to check out some of their stuff and i gotta say, more than half of them draw just as decent as any artist that produces anime/manga in japan. And with tech for making games becoming more accessible, indie games will continue to grow and improve and make even more sales. The number of people shifting over to playing PC is increasing

[Flere210]

16 hours ago, Johann said:

I'll say it again: The problem is that the creators are overwhelmingly straight men, and that the content being created is overwhelmingly catered to straight men. As such, men have a stronger role in determining how women are perceived than women themselves.

Wich is solved by having more female artists, wich fire emblem is doing, as 3H artist is a woman. Men can have their own visions if they are not the only ones allowed to do so, imo. 

 

16 hours ago, Johann said:

Don't know what to tell you, it's everywhere, and not just in Japanese media & games.

I suppose we just draw the line on what is fanservice at different points. Nothing more to say about this.

16 hours ago, Johann said:

Sexually objectifying men doesn't resolve the problems created by sexually objectifying women, nor would segregating content to "for men" and "for women". The result would be a narrow male perspective of what content for women should look like. The solution is more/better representation for women, both as creators and characters.

How is better representation going to help something like Senran Kagura? Reducing the fanservice is going to alienate the fanbase while removing that one thing that make it stand out compared to the rest of the fighting games. What you propose is going to work for certain things that are intended for a broader audience, but not for everything, and there is always the risk of screwing up like in the Ghostbuster reboot.

I don't think that Senran Kagura should cease to exist because it's "immoral", no matter how much i despise it, i don't support censorship. And as i said before, a Senran Kagura without fanservice makes no sense. So what i wish for is for a place in the market for a "Reverse Senran Kagura".

I don't want gendered entertrainment, i want a kind of entertrainment where there is a place for everyone, wich includes products aimed at a certain gender. There are too many show aimed at guys? Most probably yes. Does this means that guys should not write what they want because it's oversaturated or bad(both morally and qualitatively)? I think not, but maybe they should have a harder time getting exposure. But then, i believe in the Sturgeon Law, so i want a culling of trashy shows in general.

[Shoblongoo]

Imma give the same answer I give every time some variant of this question pops up.

Fanservice if fine when its included along side good gameplay, worldbuilding, character dialogue and plot development.
Fanservice is bad when its used as a substitute for good gameplay, word building, character dialogue and plot development.  

[eclipse]

On 5/12/2019 at 1:16 PM, Tryhard said:

And now, the irony point:

As long as the first panel could button up her coat, and it was enough to cover her cleavage, she'd be allowed to stay.  A T-shirt and sweats would be considered unprofessional, and the second panel be sent home to change into something better.  Such is school life.

7 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Wich is solved by having more female artists, wich fire emblem is doing, as 3H artist is a woman. Men can have their own visions if they are not the only ones allowed to do so, imo.

Good art and bad art aren't gender-locked IMO.  I had issues with both SoV and 3H's art.  Big issues.  Fanservice isn't just skimpy outfits.

Also, this isn't the first time FE has had a female artist.  Sachiko Wada did the Tellius art, and I think Thracia/Elibe also had a female artist.

Edited May 14, 2019 by eclipse

[Interdimensional Observer]

17 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Also, this isn't the first time FE has had a female artist.  Sachiko Wada did the Tellius art, and I think Thracia/Elibe also had a female artist.

Bayonetta, though created by a man who called her his ideal woman, was designed by a female artist as well.  

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Bayonetta, though created by a man who called her his ideal woman, was designed by a female artist as well.  

Wasn't Bayonetta's situation something like "this is what I want in the main character", and the artist flew with it?

[Armchair General]

I thought Bayonetta was exclusively designed by a woman?

[Johann]

21 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I have to agree with tediz here. I think there's something more people need to understand in regards to how art is consumed. NOT ALL ART IS MEANT FOR EVERYONE. This is reminding me of the whole sekiro difficulty debacle so I'm gonna frame it like that. Should Sekiro have an easy mode? No, no it shouldn't because that would completely compromise the creator's artistic vision for their game. The director for these games has gone on record to say he wants the worlds he creates to feel bleak and unforgiving and a high difficulty is how he goes about creating that feeling within the player. To say that difficulty shouldn't be there or that the game should have an easy mode to make it more accessible would be an insult to his artistic integrity. does that make you wrong for disliking the game's high difficulty? No, no it doesn't. It just means that kind of experience does not appeal to your personal taste which is totally fine. I am not trying to devalue your opinion. If you don't like that kind of game go play something else because that game clearly was not made for you and that is ok. A game does not have to cater to everyone's personal taste. Horrors movies aren't for everyone. I dislike horror movies and horror elements in movies(kind of) but does that mean they shouldn't exist? No because there are people out there who do enjoy that stuff and I would be a terrible person if I took that away from them. I mean if I'm bothered by it I'll go watch something else that better suits my tastes. 

Not all art is meant for everyone, yet the overwhelming majority of it is meant for straight men. "Go play something else" ignores that if you want to find a game with good gameplay, story, characters, etc that doesn't sexually objectify women, you won't have a ton of options, especially in certain genres. Comparing it to something like the horror genre as a whole is missing the point, as this isn't an issue of tastes. I don't begrudge people for enjoying fanservice, but I do have contention with how widespread female sexual objectification is, and the impacts of that. Furthermore, I don't think it's realistic to have it wiped from the face of the planet, but asking for more media where it's not present and female characters are treated better is definitely realizable. 

21 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Also if there's one thing I've learned as an aspiring creator, if you don't like what's out there go learn the necessary skills and make it yourself. No one's stopping you so do it. Go out there and create something that you would enjoy and think other people would enjoy. Don't just complain about it do something about it. Actions and sales figures speak louder than words. Not to say criticism doesn't have it's place in media and artistic consumption but with an argument as subjective as this yeah that's not really criticism.

I say again just because you personally don't like it that doesn't make it objectively terrible. When you critique art, I am of the belief that you should critique it for what's trying to be not for what you think it should be. I would never criticize a game like senran kagura for its fanservice. Why? because that's the entire reason you bought the game to begin with. It's exactly what it says on the tin so to complain about it would be completely missing the point. 

These works aren't created by lone aspiring artists fulfilling their dreams. They're the products of large teams of people working under directors who are ultimately beholden to the management of their company. If the executives tell them to put extra boobs in there, the artists are gonna do it or get replaced by someone who will. I pointed out earlier why this isn't even a great business strategy, so that's not a strong defense.

My criticisms aren't limited to calling stuff "terrible" (a subjective criticism), I've been pointing out the impacts of sexual objectification (an objective criticism). That said, there are also no restrictions on how a person can criticize any work of art, you can only make rules for yourself. 

21 hours ago, Ottservia said:

To sort of jump back on the fanservice topic a little, Yoko Taro, the director/writer of nier automata, had this to say when asked about 2B's somewhat sexual design:

"But the biggest reason is that I just really like girls" 

Now my question is he misogynistic for saying that? I don't think so. He just likes cute girls and wanted to put one in his games  He isn't being misogynistic he is just creating something he enjoys which just so happens to be a cute anime android girl. And that's totally fine. He is well within his rights to create that. He isn't hurting anyone. It doesn't take away from any of the game's deep themes or messages. It just exists because he wanted it there and is that so wrong? No, I don't think so.

That's uh, not a super great defense. If something he created is sexually objectifying, then he's gone and done a sexism. Think of it this way: imagine if someone made something with racist black stereotypes and was like "I just really like black people/culture", how absurd does that sound? He has the right (or ability, rather) to create that, I guess, but he's definitely not immune to criticism and scrutiny over why and how. As I outlined before, there are plenty of reasons why sexist depictions are harmful.

19 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

I think Johann's argument needs to shift slightly towards looking at this from an artistic POV and be more compassionate towards us. 

These designs aren't created in the interest of artistic expression or integrity. It's literally "well, I like boobs". I don't really give a shit who enjoys this stuff and this isn't an attack on anybody for liking any of it, rather a criticism of the industry and the impacts these creative decisions have. I'm not sure what kind of art you've been exposed to, but the most brilliant sexually charged art I've seen is nothing like what you'll find in anime or porn.

18 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Wich is solved by having more female artists, wich fire emblem is doing, as 3H artist is a woman. Men can have their own visions if they are not the only ones allowed to do so, imo. 

Getting more female artists is important, but it doesn't stop there. Artists don't have absolute free reign to create whatever they want, they have directors telling them what to create. As such, we need more female directors, as well as writers and other positions of creative control.

18 hours ago, Flere210 said:

How is better representation going to help something like Senran Kagura? Reducing the fanservice is going to alienate the fanbase while removing that one thing that make it stand out compared to the rest of the fighting games. What you propose is going to work for certain things that are intended for a broader audience, but not for everything, and there is always the risk of screwing up like in the Ghostbuster reboot.

I don't think that Senran Kagura should cease to exist because it's "immoral", no matter how much i despise it, i don't support censorship. And as i said before, a Senran Kagura without fanservice makes no sense. So what i wish for is for a place in the market for a "Reverse Senran Kagura".

I don't want gendered entertrainment, i want a kind of entertrainment where there is a place for everyone, wich includes products aimed at a certain gender. There are too many show aimed at guys? Most probably yes. Does this means that guys should not write what they want because it's oversaturated or bad(both morally and qualitatively)? I think not, but maybe they should have a harder time getting exposure. But then, i believe in the Sturgeon Law, so i want a culling of trashy shows in general.

The bottom line is that we need more variety. It's not a call for every show/game/movie to cover up all women, it's to treat female characters (and by extension women) better and not reduce them to playthings for straight men to lust over. Companies do not have to put out so much content like that. If you want entertainment where there is a place for everyone, then surely you can support this. It's not censorship to ask for this, it's criticism, and no creative work is beyond criticism. This really boils down to "equality feels like oppression when you're accustomed to privilege".

Solutions like hiring more women for creative management roles are a valuable way to push back against the sexism that keeps most women from getting hired in the first place. Why are most writers, artists, producers, directors, etc men? What does that do to the industry and market? If you agree that there's an abundance of low quality media, then clearly it's not an issue of hiring based on talent. Having more women with creative control means you get more perspectives, which ultimately means more variety in your media.

I know nothing about Senran Kaguro, so I don't have anything to say about it. The Ghostbuster reboot's problem wasn't it's casting, but rather the poor management from Sony and letting the director handle the script instead of someone with talent like Kristin Wiig.

10 hours ago, Armchair General said:

I thought Bayonetta was exclusively designed by a woman?

Her art was done by a woman, but the concept and direction was by a man. She didn't have complete artistic freedom. The director also had control over the camera work and how Bayonetta moves.

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, Johann said:

That's uh, not a super great defense. If something he created is sexually objectifying, then he's gone and done a sexism. Think of it this way: imagine if someone made something with racist black stereotypes and was like "I just really like black people/culture", how absurd does that sound? He has the right (or ability, rather) to create that, I guess, but he's definitely not immune to criticism and scrutiny over why and how. As I outlined before, there are plenty of reasons why sexist depictions are harmful.

ok first of all define sexually objectifying. Cause by my definition 2B does not fall under that. I mean yeah she is sexy but that's mostly a personal taste thing if nothing else. What I consider sexually objectifying is shit like Camilla or the latest "wet tights" anime that just recently came out(yes they made an anime solely about high school girls wearing wet tights. It is trash and fully meant to pander to the lowest common denominator but whatever degenerates will be degenerates). 2B is not sexually objectifying at least by my metric. Cause she may be sexy(which again is just a personal taste thing) but she isn't presented as lesser because of her "gender"(cause y'know she's an android) nor is she forced into sexually provocative poses and shots for the sake of the player. You can do that of course what with the free roaming camera(which is mostly just there for gameplay purposes) and self-destruct feature but that's mostly optional harmless fluff. Like her sexiness is not the forefront of her character or design. It's just there and even then I'm sure there are people out there who wouldn't find her sexy cause again that's a personal taste thing. She's not made sexy for the sake of titillation. She's just sexy because that's what the artist wanted and I don't think that's a problem. Like If I wanted to draw cute tsundere OCs flourished with all the tropes and fetishes I love that's associated with the archetype and put it on the internet, in a story, game, whatever would that be misogynistic? cause you seem to be saying that it is to which I disagree. It's not. It's just me creating what I like and putting it in things for public consumption. Like If a girl wants draw yaoi doujins all day because she enjoys that stuff and sell it to others does that make her misandranistic or homophobic? No, I don't think it does. 

Secondly no that would not be racist on the part of the artist depending on the context. Like If I wanted to put a black character in my story and have never met a black person in my life so I wrote them in a way that's based on stereotypes(harmful or otherwise) I've seen in other media would I be racist? No, I don't think I would. The depiction may be racist but the artist is not. The artist is simply ignorant. It's not an absurd claim. I mean if I wanted to do that. I could do that. It's only racist on the part of the artist if I intentionally depict the character as lesser because of their race and not comment on it and make jokes like "hey look how stupid this dark-skinned man is!" Now that would be a racially harmful and discriminatory. If anything, If that was my explanation for why I did it, it'd be a failed attempt to be more respectful on the part of the artist. Does it depict harmful stereotypes? yeah, but is the artist racist for being ignorant? No, I don't think so. Also I feel like this is a false analogy. Cause a racist depiction of something and fanservice serve two completely different purposes.

2 hours ago, Johann said:

These works aren't created by lone aspiring artists fulfilling their dreams. They're the products of large teams of people working under directors who are ultimately beholden to the management of their company. If the executives tell them to put extra boobs in there, the artists are gonna do it or get replaced by someone who will. I pointed out earlier why this isn't even a great business strategy, so that's not a strong defense.

there are plenty and I mean plenty of female creators out there with full creative freedom in what they create and create things that could be considered objectifying. One look at the weekly manga industry could tell you that. I mean one of the biggest isekai of last season(rising of the shield hero) which has the first arc of the story center around a male protagonist fighting against false rape allegations was made by two females. Then there's stuff like FMA. An almost universally critically acclaimed series with a female mangaka. Then there's Yuri on Ice which is written and directed by a female animator and Yuri on Ice is a BL story that could be considered objectifying. There's also J.K. Rowling and the Harry Potter franchise. I could list several more but you get the picture. This stuff is out there. you just have to go out and look for it and if you're too lazy to that then I'm sorry but that's not my problem

2 hours ago, Johann said:

The bottom line is that we need more variety. It's not a call for every show/game/movie to cover up all women, it's to treat female characters (and by extension women) better and not reduce them to playthings for straight men to lust over. Companies do not have to put out so much content like that. If you want entertainment where there is a place for everyone, then surely you can support this. It's not censorship to ask for this, it's criticism, and no creative work is beyond criticism. This really boils down to "equality feels like oppression when you're accustomed to privilege".

I agree that we need more variety in our entertainment but getting rid of and complaining about fanservice IS NOT THE ANSWER. the answer lies in going out there and creating what you want to create. If you want more stuff without fanservice then make it. Go ahead no one is going to stop you. We live in a free country after all. If it's good and succeeds, then more people will try to ride off the success and create things in that vain which would cause a growth/change in the industry. As of right now though. It isn't happening because no one has gone out to make something like that and have it succeed on a large enough scale. The problem I'm having with your argument is the way you're framing it.

The way you're framing you're argument comes off as you simply DEMANDING artists not put fanservice in their works and should conform to your personal biased opinion. That may not be the intention but that's how I'm interpreting it at least. Like I don't mean to sound rude and I apologize if this all sounds a bit blunt and harsh but art is art and shouldn't have to conform to anyone's personal taste or societal standards. People create what they want to create and if what they want to create is a high action degenerate fetish pandering anime booby game, they can do that. They don't necessarily HAVE to make a game like that but they do it anyway. Why? because they can and because they want to. Just like you are free to create whatever want. They are free to create whatever they want. That's not to say there aren't harmful ideas within art but those ideas still have a right to exist. The problem does not lie in the the art itself. The problem lies in how people choose to interpret it. 

 

Edit: This doesn't even bring into account the types of shows where fanservice is a very integral part of the story's themes and messages like shimoneta(Full title being  "Shimoneta to Iu Gainen ga Sonzai Taikutsu na Sekai" Or "Shimoneta: A Boring World Where the Concept of Dirty Jokes Doesn't Exist") which is a story that explores the idea of a world where everything is censored and no one is allowed to make any kind of dirty joke or anything. The protagonists are pervert terrorists trying to bring back lewd stuff back and fight against said censorship. A show like that cannot exist without Fanservice. It's just not possible. So I ask again would be mysoginistic or wrong to create?

Edited May 14, 2019 by Ottservia

[Etrurian emperor]

19 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

ok first of all define sexually objectifying. Cause by my definition 2B does not fall under that. I mean yeah she is sexy but that's mostly a personal taste thing if nothing else. What I consider sexually objectifying is shit like Camilla or the latest "wet tights" anime that just recently came out(yes they made an anime solely about high school girls wearing wet tights. It is trash and fully meant to pander to the lowest common denominator but whatever degenerates will be degenerates). 2B is not sexually objectifying at least by my metric. Cause she may be sexy(which again is just a personal taste thing) but she isn't presented as lesser because of her "gender"(cause y'know she's an android) nor is she nto sexually provocative poses and shots for the sake of the player. You can do that of course what with the free roaming camera(which is mostly just there for gameplay purposes) and self-destruct feature but that's mostly optional harmless fluff. Like her sexiness is not the forefront of her character or design. It's just there and even then I'm sure there are people out there who wouldn't find her sexy cause again that's a personal taste thing. She's not made sexy for the sake of titillation. She's just sexy because that's what the artist wanted and I don't think that's a problem. Like If I wanted to draw cute tsundere OCs flourished with all the tropes and fetishes I love that's associated with the archetype and put it on the internet, in a story, game, whatever would that be misogynistic? cause you seem to be saying that it is to which I disagree. It's not. It's just me creating what I like and putting it in things for public consumption. Like If a girl wants draw yaoi doujins all day because she enjoys that stuff and sell it to others does that make her misandranistic or homophobic? No, I don't think it does. 

I have a bit of a mixed feeling on 2B and making her sexy. I never personally been that bothered by it. Strangely enough I place Toobs in the same place as Bayonetta where their respective personalities helps make it more acceptable then it would have otherwise been. Neither are deinty flowers in need of protection and they just couldn't care less about what people would think about them, Bayonetta because she's just so arrogant and 2B because she's pretty indifferent about most things. If meek little Sakura or proper Eirika dressed like that it would require some serious in universe explaining, but thanks to their behavior it doesn't need any explanation for Bayonetta and 2b. People on the internet can have all the impure thoughts they want, Bayonetta would likely laugh at them for it and 2b might be cutting off hands. They'll be fine. 

On the other hand 2B is rather....young. A bit too young to get an underwear outfit. At most she resembles a 16 year old and not a particularly grown up one. She's not like Mythra, Fiora, Lucina or other girls who seem to be on the verge of adulthood or already into it despite their ages being kept vague. Or at least I certainly hope 2B isn't supposed to be an adult because her prime love interest is a shota. 

[Johann]

57 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

ok first of all define sexually objectifying. Cause by my definition 2B does not fall under that. I mean yeah she is sexy but that's mostly a personal taste thing if nothing else. What I consider sexually objectifying is shit like Camilla or the latest "wet tights" anime that just recently came out(yes they made an anime solely about high school girls wearing wet tights. It is trash and fully meant to pander to the lowest common denominator but whatever degenerates will be degenerates). 2B is not sexually objectifying at least by my metric. Cause she may be sexy(which again is just a personal taste thing) but she isn't presented as lesser because of her "gender"(cause y'know she's an android) nor is she forced into sexually provocative poses and shots for the sake of the player. You can do that of course what with the free roaming camera(which is mostly just there for gameplay purposes) and self-destruct feature but that's mostly optional harmless fluff. Like her sexiness is not the forefront of her character or design. It's just there and even then I'm sure there are people out there who wouldn't find her sexy cause again that's a personal taste thing. She's not made sexy for the sake of titillation. She's just sexy because that's what the artist wanted and I don't think that's a problem. Like If I wanted to draw cute tsundere OCs flourished with all the tropes and fetishes I love that's associated with the archetype and put it on the internet, in a story, game, whatever would that be misogynistic? cause you seem to be saying that it is to which I disagree. It's not. It's just me creating what I like and putting it in things for public consumption. Like If a girl wants draw yaoi doujins all day because she enjoys that stuff and sell it to others does that make her misandranistic or homophobic? No, I don't think it does. 

Sexual objectification is when a person (usually female) is viewed or made to be viewed as an object of desire instead of as a person, generally overlooking things like their personality, emotions, motivations, etc. This is usually done by focusing on that person's body parts (through thing like outfits and camera angles), putting them into sexual situations against their will or when it makes no sense, that sort of thing. It's not necessarily a binary "yes or no" deal, sometimes there's nuance and may depend on a specific instance-- a character could be objectified in one moment but might not be in the next. 

I haven't played Nier so I don't know anything beyond what the character 2B looks like. For all I know, she isn't sexualized at all during the game, just that her appearance is kinda fetishy with the exposed ass and high heels. Maybe the game actually handles the topic of sexuality in a mature and meaningful way, I don't know, so I'm not going to make a call on that. Note that while 2B is a robot and technically genderless I guess, she is coded as female by her appearance, voice, etc. Whether the man who created her is sexist or not (or, more accurately, if his actions are sexist or not) is something I can't really say without thoroughly researching him, but from what I hear, it sounds like he skirts that line quite a bit. However, if anything he (or anyone else) creates is sexist, whether or not they like it doesn't exempt it from being a sexist creation. The same applies to homophobia, racism, etc.

Something to think about is how creators (including ourselves) can make things that are sexual without making them sexist. Part of this involves thinking critically about how we perceive things like sex & identity, and how to express them. 

57 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Secondly no that would not be racist on the part of the artist depending on the context. Like If I wanted to put a black character in my story and have never met a black person in my life so I wrote them in a way that's based on stereotypes(harmful or otherwise) I've seen in other media would I be racist? No, I don't think I would. The depiction may be racist but the artist is not. The artist is simply ignorant. It's not an absurd claim. I mean if I wanted to do that. I could do that. It's only racist on the part of the artist if I intentionally depict the character as lesser because of their race and not comment on it and make jokes like "hey look how stupid this dark-skinned man is!" Now that would be a racially harmful and discriminatory. If anything, If that was my explanation for why I did it, it'd be a failed attempt to be more respectful on the part of the artist. Does it depict harmful stereotypes? yeah, but is the artist racist for being ignorant? No, I don't think so. Also I feel like this is a false analogy. Cause a racist depiction of something and fanservice serve two completely different purposes.

Uh, no, that'd definitely be racist. Unintentional racism is still racism, the impacts are the same regardless of how aware the person responsible for it is. It's less helpful to view it as "who is a racist?" rather than "who is doing something racist?". The same applies to sexism, hence the comparison. A lot of people do racist or sexist things without realizing it until someone calls them out on it. It's embarrassing, sure, but they need to know and acknowledge it or they're going to keep doing it.

57 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

there are plenty and I mean plenty of female creators out there with full creative freedom in what they create and create things that could be considered objectifying. One look at the weekly manga industry could tell you that. I mean one of the biggest isekai of last season(rising of the shield hero) which has the first arc of the story center around a male protagonist fighting against false rape allegations was made by two females. Then there's stuff like FMA. An almost universally critically acclaimed series with a female mangaka. Then there's Yuri on Ice which is written and directed by a female animator and Yuri on Ice is a BL story that could be considered objectifying. There's also J.K. Rowling and the Harry Potter franchise. I could list several more but you get the picture. This stuff is out there. you just have to go out and look for it and if you're too lazy to that then I'm sorry but that's not my problem

There's a MASSIVE disparity between the amount of major works in any medium with women at the helm compared to men. Not just authors and artists, but also executives and directors, who get to decide which writers/artists are hired and the kind of work they can produce. This means the decisions being made are overwhelmingly by men. A woman having full creative control in any major publication or production is an extremely rare thing.

Also note that women are capable of perpetuating sexism against their own gender. This doesn't mean we should deny giving more women creative control, but that the impacts of sexism are so thoroughly normalized that most people, including many women, don't see the problem.

57 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I agree that we need more variety in our entertainment but getting rid of and complaining about fanservice IS NOT THE ANSWER. the answer lies in going out there and creating what you want to create. If you want more stuff without fanservice then make it. Go ahead no one is going to stop you. We live in a free country after all. If it's good and succeeds, then more people will try to ride off the success and create things in that vain which would cause a growth/change in the industry. As of right now though. It isn't happening because no one has gone out to make something like that and have it succeed on a large enough scale. The problem I'm having with your argument is the way you're framing it.

The way you're framing you're argument comes off as you simply DEMANDING artists not put fanservice in their works and should conform to your personal biased opinion. That may not be the intention but that's how I'm interpreting it at least. Like I don't mean to sound rude and I apologize if this all sounds a bit blunt and harsh but art is art and shouldn't have to conform to anyone's personal taste or societal standards. People create what they want to create and if what they want to create is a high action degenerate fetish pandering anime booby game, they can do that. They don't necessarily HAVE to make a game like that but they do it anyway. Why? because they can and because they want to. Just like you are free to create whatever want. They are free to create whatever they want. That's not to say there aren't harmful ideas within art but those ideas still have a right to exist. The problem does not lie in the the art itself. The problem lies in how people choose to interpret it. 

If that's what you read from my post, then you didn't understand it at all. Based on your "answer", you don't understand how media industries work either-- for one thing, they're not equal opportunity, whether by gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. 

The whole point is that the way many of these works treat women helps perpetuate sexism in the world, which in turn has serious impacts about how we, as a society and as individuals, treat/view women. This isn't about competing tastes, especially not my own, which you know little about. The ironic thing is that your defense basically amounts to valuing some people's preferences more than treating women with respect.

57 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Edit: This doesn't even bring into account the types of shows where fanservice is a very integral part of the story's themes and messages like shimoneta(Full title being  "Shimoneta to Iu Gainen ga Sonzai Taikutsu na Sekai" Or "Shimoneta: A Boring World Where the Concept of Dirty Jokes Doesn't Exist") which is a story that explores the idea of a world where everything is censored and no one is allowed to make any kind of dirty joke or anything. The protagonists are pervert terrorists trying to bring back lewd stuff back and fight against said censorship. A show like that cannot exist without Fanservice. It's just not possible. So I ask again would be mysoginistic or wrong to create?

I dunno the work, but I'd be surprised if it used the premise to be more than an excuse to sexually objectify the female characters.

[Ottservia]

26 minutes ago, Johann said:

Something to think about is how creators (including ourselves) can make things that are sexual without making them sexist. Part of this involves thinking critically about how we perceive things like sex & identity, and how to express them. 

Now this is something I think we can agree on. Like I said the problem isn't really the work itself but rather how other people choose to interpret it. There's definitely a conversation to be had about sexism in art and how it's portrayed and interpreted. Cause again good art is a reflection of reality and is a mode of expression artists can use to fully express ideals and philosophies in how they perceive the world around them. My point though is that none of it is inherently malicious or at least most of it(cause y'know lovecraft was kind of a racist but eh) . Fanservice in it of itself is not a bad thing. It's not inherently bad. The problem lies in it's execution and interpretation. Like for example Camilla is an example of bad fanservice because of how exploitative and demeaning it is to everyone regardless of gender. That's the kind of fanservice I despise because it's just dumb and stupid and demeaning in every sense of the word. Cause unlike say bayonetta she's not really treated as character but as you said she's treated as nothing more than a sexual object. Bayonetta is an interesting case because her sexuality is such an integral part of her character and makes a lot sense if you consider the fact that she is a witch who trade sex with a demon for magical powers. Sure they use it as an excuse to sexualize her at times but it's never demeaning in any way as far as I can tell. She's her own character with her own strengths and weaknesses. Her sexiness does not take away from that but in fact does the exact opposite and empowers her. She's sexy and she's aware of that so she flaunts it because she wants to. It isn't sexist because the creators treat her with respect and don't just objectify her. There's nothing wrong with sexy characters in fiction it's all in the execution. Just because a character is sexy that doesn't automatically make it sexist. That is the main point I'm arguing. It appeared you disagreed on that point hence our quarrel. Again take 2B. She is sexy but in the context of the game and story she is a character first and foremost. Her sexiness has very little to do with the quality of her character. It's just there if you find appeal in it. The developers don't objectify her for the sake of the audience. Is she sexy? yes. Is this the kind of cute girl taro wanted to put in his game? yes. Does that sexiness take away anything from her as a character or detract anything from the overall themes of the narrative? no, it doesn't meaning I don't find it to be sexist. Bayonetta and 2B are sexy characters that are not sexist. Cause the developers of both games do not depict them as sexual objects. These games do not do that. Bayonetta and 2B are characters first and foremost. Sexy characters but characters none the less. They are not depicted in the same way Camilla is who is used only to pander to a fetish. Camilla is a prime example of being fetish pandering first and a character second to which I will agree is terrible. 

55 minutes ago, Johann said:

There's a MASSIVE disparity between the amount of major works in any medium with women at the helm compared to men. Not just authors and artists, but also executives and directors, who get to decide which writers/artists are hired and the kind of work they can produce. This means the decisions being made are overwhelmingly by men. A woman having full creative control in any major publication or production is an extremely rare thing.

Perhaps you're right and I will concede on that point.

56 minutes ago, Johann said:

The ironic thing is that your defense basically amounts to valuing some people's preferences more than treating women with respect.

I'm not saying we shouldn't treat woman with respect cause we should. We should treat everyone with respect regardless of who they are. Again my point is that said that fanservice is not inherently sexist. I don't think it is. To me it's only sexist if done in a specific way(like Camilla). I wouldn't say it's inherently sexist. Cause again there's nothing wrong with sexy characters in it of themselves it's really all about execution at the end of the day.

1 hour ago, Johann said:

Uh, no, that'd definitely be racist. Unintentional racism is still racism, the impacts are the same regardless of how aware the person responsible for it is. It's less helpful to view it as "who is a racist?" rather than "who is doing something racist?". The same applies to sexism, hence the comparison. A lot of people do racist or sexist things without realizing it until someone calls them out on it. It's embarrassing, sure, but they need to know and acknowledge it or they're going to keep doing it.

I agree we should call people out for even unintentional racism but an artist is not racist for being ignorant. The work may perpetuate racist stereotypes but if the creator did not know any better they should not be the one to blame which was my point. What we should do in that case is call it out and use it as an opportunity to educate people on the subject matter. 

1 hour ago, Johann said:

If that's what you read from my post, then you didn't understand it at all. Based on your "answer", you don't understand how media industries work either-- for one thing, they're not equal opportunity, whether by gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. 

perhaps I may be misinformed that much I will concede but still in this day and age it doesn't take a whole lot to get your name out there. I mean there's plenty of ways to get your foot in the door like social media,  youtube, kickstarter, etc. It really doesn't take a whole to get started being a creator in this digital age but then again maybe I'm a little ignorant on this subject. 

[Johann]

37 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Now this is something I think we can agree on. Like I said the problem isn't really the work itself but rather how other people choose to interpret it. There's definitely a conversation to be had about sexism in art and how it's portrayed and interpreted. Cause again good art is a reflection of reality and is a mode of expression artists can use to fully express ideals and philosophies in how they perceive the world around them. My point though is that none of it is inherently malicious or at least most of it(cause y'know lovecraft was kind of a racist but eh) .

This kinda goes hand-in-hand with the bit about being unintentionally racist or sexist; even something made with good intentions can have negative impacts. There are unintended consequences for all manner of well-meaning ideas, whether in art, engineering, policy, etc. In any such case, it's important that they aren't ignored. Criticism is necessary to address those issues, especially if they're so complex or nuanced that most people don't notice.

37 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Fanservice in it of itself is not a bad thing. It's not inherently bad. The problem lies in it's execution and interpretation. Like for example Camilla is an example of bad fanservice because of how exploitative and demeaning it is to everyone regardless of gender. That's the kind of fanservice I despise because it's just dumb and stupid and demeaning in every sense of the word. Cause unlike say bayonetta she's not really treated as character but as you said she's treated as nothing more than a sexual object. Bayonetta is an interesting case because her sexuality is such an integral part of her character and makes a lot sense if you consider the fact that she is a witch who trade sex with a demon for magical powers. Sure they use it as an excuse to sexualize her at times but it's never demeaning in any way as far as I can tell. She's her own character with her own strengths and weaknesses. Her sexiness does not take away from that but in fact does the exact opposite and empowers her. She's sexy and she's aware of that so she flaunts it because she wants to. It isn't sexist because the creators treat her with respect and don't just objectify her. There's nothing wrong with sexy characters in fiction it's all in the execution. Just because a character is sexy that doesn't automatically make it sexist. That is the main point I'm arguing. It appeared you disagreed on that point hence our quarrel. Again take 2B. She is sexy but in the context of the game and story she is a character first and foremost. Her sexiness has very little to do with the quality of her character. It's just there if you find appeal in it. The developers don't objectify her for the sake of the audience. Is she sexy? yes. Is this the kind of cute girl taro wanted to put in his game? yes. Does that sexiness take away anything from her as a character or detract anything from the overall themes of the narrative? no, it doesn't meaning I don't find it to be sexist. Bayonetta and 2B are sexy characters that are not sexist. Cause the developers of both games do not depict them as sexual objects. These games do not do that. Bayonetta and 2B are characters first and foremost. Sexy characters but characters none the less. They are not depicted in the same way Camilla is who is used only to pander to a fetish. Camilla is a prime example of being fetish pandering first and a character second to which I will agree is terrible. 

I'm not saying we shouldn't treat woman with respect cause we should. We should treat everyone with respect regardless of who they are. Again my point is that said that fanservice is not inherently sexist. I don't think it is. To me it's only sexist if done in a specific way(like Camilla). I wouldn't say it's inherently sexist. Cause again there's nothing wrong with sexy characters in it of themselves it's really all about execution at the end of the day.

For what it's worth, I have stated repeatedly that the issue isn't fanservice in itself, but sexual objectification. Regarding those characters:

• Camilla is trash, I dunno how they manage to one-up themselves every game but they pulled it off with Loki. Yet, I still don't begrudge anyone for liking her, but man oh man was there a missed opportunity. I have seen some impressive fan art of her wearing practical armor and it's downright gorgeous.
• Bayonetta is rather unique, in that the message is definitely about one of female sexuality and empowerment, but she's still mostly created by a man, and as such is a man's idea of female sexuality and empowerment. It's a curious case where she somehow manages to hop back and forth over (or onto) the line between "made for dudes to jack off to" and "made to give women an iconic game character" depending on what they're having her do.
• 2B I still know little to nothing about, but I recall hearing the creator loves the idea of sexualizing her (something to do with her ass in game?), though that sounds like he just wants people to draw porn of her. Her depiction in the game(s) are what matter most, and I hope that it's positive, but with a creator like that, I'm rather wary.

37 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I agree we should call people out for even unintentional racism but an artist is not racist for being ignorant. The work may perpetuate racist stereotypes but if the creator did not know any better they should not be the one to blame which was my point. What we should do in that case is call it out and use it as an opportunity to educate people on the subject matter. 

Hence why I said it's less helpful to view it as "who is a racist?" rather than "who is doing something racist?"

37 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

perhaps I may be misinformed that much I will concede but still in this day and age it doesn't take a whole lot to get your name out there. I mean there's plenty of ways to get your foot in the door like social media,  youtube, kickstarter, etc. It really doesn't take a whole to get started being a creator in this digital age but then again maybe I'm a little ignorant on this subject. 

It would probably seem like there's not much to it, but it usually has more to do with promotion than anything else. You could be an absolutely brilliant video maker on Youtube, but if the algorithms don't favor you, you're not going anywhere. This is why the most popular stuff on most sites has a sort of clickbaity style to it. The platforms aren't as supportive of the arts themselves as one would hope, sometimes functionally in opposition to the art.