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  1. 1. Did Rudolf care?

    • Yes
      19
    • No
      8
    • Unsure
      13


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After looking on the script, one thing that confused that about SoV story was the relationship between Rudolf and Berkut. At first I though that Rudolf cared for his nephew, however the more looked at things I noticed that Rudolf doesn't say anything positive about him. While it is true that Berkut repeatably lost to Alm's forces. He doesn't tolerate his multiple failures well. Rudolf seems to have more faith in the destiny Alm will have. It's it just the Rigelian way of teaching or Rudolf cared little for Berkut?

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I think Rudolf is supposed to care for Berkut but  the game just failed really bad at depicting it. There really needed to be a father son moment in the game rather than Berkut just being a loser and Rudolf being grumpy about that. 

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We are told repeatedly that Rudolf totally cared for Berkut just as if he were his own son. But what we see really doesn't support that. He can't tell him who Alm is, fine. But there is no reason he has to go all "You have failed me" on him for loosing in battles that he doesn't even want Berkut to win in the first place. When he told him to stay away from the final battle he also justified this with him being a failure. He was perfectly capable of telling his soldiers to live on without also calling them failures, yet he goes out of his way to be cruel to Berkut.

There is no reason for this other then the story needing Berkut to snap for the final battle. And as always in the writing in the post-Awakening era, it doesn't think that a character's behavior during the story should in any way define how the audience sees them. It simply tell us a character is actually super hugable when their actual actions paint them as utterly awful.

Well, maybe that's a little unfair. Echoes does usually care about that sort of thing. Clair vs Maribelle is a good example for that. They are both spoiled noblewomen. However, Maribelle is consistently written as an asshole who thinks her social status puts her above other people. She is a terrible person, yet the people around her are written to treat her shittiness as just some charming quirk. Meanwhile Clair is always written as someone to do her best to treat commoners as equals but ends up acting insensitive since it's something that she is simply not used to. So in her case, it actually makes sense that the people around her would like her. So hey, credit where credit is due.

Still, if push comes to shove, evidently IS still decides to simply force a square peg in a round hole when it's convenient. So Rudolf spends most of his screentime kicking Berkut around, yet Alm goes "He loved you! He worried about you to the last! You knew him so much better than I did. How can you not see that?"
Yeah, "how can you not see that?" indeed. I wonder what scenes Alm was watching to be so confident on the matter. Clearly not the same ones shown to the audience. God that line makes me want to facepalm every time I hear it.

Edited by BrightBow

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35 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

After looking on the script, one thing that confused that about SoV story was the relationship between Rudolf and Berkut. At first I though that Rudolf cared for his nephew, however the more looked at things I noticed that Rudolf doesn't say anything positive about him. While it is true that Berkut repeatably lost to Alm's forces. He doesn't tolerate his multiple failures well. Rudolf seems to have more faith in the destiny Alm will have. It's it just the Rigelian way of teaching or Rudolf cared little for Berkut?

i remember a quote from Rudolf saying "A merciful leader may grant a second chance, but only a fool allows a third", so perhaps he saw Berkut more as a soldier rather than a nephew. at least, that's the impression he gave me.

then again, since Duma's teachings have always been strict and all about humans surviving by their own strength, perhaps he had a change of heart after watching Alm going that far. in the end, he decided to entrust the future of the Rigelian empire to his son after being defeated.

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13 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Well, maybe that's a little unfair. Echoes does usually care about that sort of thing. Clair vs Maribelle is a good example for that. They are both spoiled noblewomen. However, Maribelle is consistently written as an asshole who thinks her social status puts her above other people. She is a terrible person, yet the people around her are written to treat her shittiness as just some charming quirk. Meanwhile Clair is always written as someone to do her best to treat commoners as equals but ends up acting insensitive since it's something that she is simply not used to. So in her case, it actually makes sense that the people around her would like her. So hey, credit where credit is due.

I wouldn't go as far as calling Maribelle a terrible person but yes, throughout the entire snooty noble archetype Claire stands out as being very sweet and curious regarding the lower classes rather than bratty like Maribelle, Serra and Clarine. It was a refreshing take on the archetype that did Claire a lot of good. I was ready to dismiss her as just another Maribelle before her introduction. 

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I'd like to say yes, as that was how I interpreted it. But it's really hard to say because the writing in Echoes is a mixed bag with a lot of wasted potential, and Rudolf was a victim of the mixed writing (as were Celica, Jedah, and Alm). 

Unfortunately, the writing in Echoes just told us that he cared about Berkut, but the story never showed it. The story tells us that he was torn on how to treat Berkut because he had to keep Alm secret, but we never see such a moment; not even an off-hand remark when Rudolf is by himself. 

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Rudolf is supposed to care, but his failure in showing that is probably why i'm pretty mild about Berkut being a a jerk.

His normal treatment of Berkut seems cold at best. Its kinda good that someone doesn't handle their adopted son with kids gloves, but I don't think there's a single time where Rudolf actually says anything nice about Berkut.

 And If Berkut needed to be kept in the dark about the prophecy then so be it, but Rudolf ran out of that excuse when he decided to run to his death. There was no risk of the cultists realising the truth anymore since the truth was meant to be revealed after that battle. Rudolf decided not to tell Berkut the truth in his final moments for no appearant reason. He had time to send him to his room so he might as well sit down and tell him about the whole thing. He had time to tell his general so not telling Berkut came across like cowardness on Rudolf's part.

So Berkut heard his father figure died and also that the same father was feeding him lies his entire life. Some part of it was 'neccesary', but Rudolf  went about it in the most needlessly cruel way possible.

So yeah echoes Rudolf is a terrible person.

 

Edited by Sasori

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1 hour ago, BrightBow said:

Well, maybe that's a little unfair. Echoes does usually care about that sort of thing. Clair vs Maribelle is a good example for that. They are both spoiled noblewomen. However, Maribelle is consistently written as an asshole who thinks her social status puts her above other people. She is a terrible person, yet the people around her are written to treat her shittiness as just some charming quirk. Meanwhile Clair is always written as someone to do her best to treat commoners as equals but ends up acting insensitive since it's something that she is simply not used to. So in her case, it actually makes sense that the people around her would like her. So hey, credit where credit is due.

While Clair is much better, I heavily disagree with your assertations over Maribelle and just dismissing her off as a terrible person. Like, have you really delved into her supports, or did you look at her first impressions and just dismiss her from that? Because though Maribelle can be snooty, she is by no means a terrible person. Case in point, her support with Olivia has her actually trying to make Olivia be more confident with herself, which is something that is canonical, as Olivia's support with Inigo has him mention that Olivia made him do what Maribelle made Olivia do. 

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

While Clair is much better, I heavily disagree with your assertations over Maribelle and just dismissing her off as a terrible person. Like, have you really delved into her supports, or did you look at her first impressions and just dismiss her from that? Because though Maribelle can be snooty, she is by no means a terrible person. Case in point, her support with Olivia has her actually trying to make Olivia be more confident with herself, which is something that is canonical, as Olivia's support with Inigo has him mention that Olivia made him do what Maribelle made Olivia do. 

I don't consider the entirety of a character's dialog in the story to be a "first impression". But in any case, having a character randomly act nice does not make up for being a terrible human being any other time. This isn't a math problem.

It's why I also couldn't care less that Berkut was nice to Rinea once. What I care more about is that his outlook and values that dominate his behavior make a lot of sense given what we see of how his interactions with Rudolf. ...of course, his story still shouldn't have ended the way it did. Being forgiven by the woman he murdered and being escorted by her to the afterlife while Alm is mourning him. If you commit to being awful to the very end, at least die properly.

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13 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

I don't consider the entirety of a character's dialog in the story to be a "first impression". But in any case, having a character randomly act nice does not make up for being a terrible human being any other time. This isn't a math problem.

It's why I also couldn't care less that Berkut was nice to Rinea once. What I care more about is that his outlook and values that dominate his behavior make a lot of sense given what we see of how his interactions with Rudolf. ...of course, his story still shouldn't have ended the way it did. Being forgiven by the woman he murdered and being escorted by her to the afterlife while Alm is mourning him. If you commit to being awful to the very end, at least die properly.

To call it random means that it isn't in their character, so them doing it is thus random. Maribelle being nice isn't random. It's in her character to do so. Hence why she is able to be nice. 

As for how Berkut's character was treated, definitely isn't something that Berkut should have had in such a small scale game. Especially since Berkut represented more of the commoner vs. nobility theme that gets swept by the final act.

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I believe he did, but Rudolf's handling of their final scene together could have been better, from both a character and narrative perspective. I can understand Rudolf being harsh on Berkut the first two times they talk together. Berkut did, after all, dash off to fight the Deliverance for sport and came home with his butt kicked, and the second chance he was granted ended in failure. Unless he was a blindly doting parent, there was no real reason for Rudolf not to rebuke his nephew for his shortcomings, especially given Rigels "hardship builds character" mentality.

However, how the scene could have been different is if, instead of preventing Berkut from participating in battle due to his earlier failures, Rudolf bluntly told Berkut that war is unpredictable, and that even the most hardened of warriors can be felled by a simple attack. Thus, if Rudolf fell, it would be best that Rigel still had a heir, instead of potentially loosing both of the royal family in one day. This also accounted that in the event Alm fell in battle, Rigel would still have a ruler instead of being a serpent with its head cut off.

Berkut could still have gone mad afterwards, as his chance at becoming emperor was swiped right under him mere moments after it was presented to him. All the years of waiting would have been for naught, and his greatest rival would be crowed emperor in his place, twisting the knife further and perhaps giving more credibility to believing that after all these years, Rudolf didn't truly love him.

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As has already been mentioned: the writers want us to think he cared, but we get no evidence of this. Though to be honest I'm of the opinion that everything to do with Rudolf is a bit of a mess, and this is certainly one of the places this comes to the fore. It's enough of a mess that I remember, in the middle of the game, theorizing that Rudolf wanted Berkut to snap as part of his Grand Plans for some unknown gambit. That theory made more sense than what we ended up getting.

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57 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

I believe he did, but Rudolf's handling of their final scene together could have been better, from both a character and narrative perspective. I can understand Rudolf being harsh on Berkut the first two times they talk together. Berkut did, after all, dash off to fight the Deliverance for sport and came home with his butt kicked, and the second chance he was granted ended in failure. Unless he was a blindly doting parent, there was no real reason for Rudolf not to rebuke his nephew for his shortcomings, especially given Rigels "hardship builds character" mentality.

Except that as far as Rudolf is concerned, Alm is protected by fate. So he knowingly sent Berkut off to a battle that couldn't possibly be won.

Also, that first battle was hardly a loss. They very specifically arrived with just three men. And the battle ended with the leadership of the Deliverance completely shaken by the trouble they had with a mere trio. Rudolf treating it as this great failure is just absurd.
May have been better to make Berkut the boss of an all new map rather then putting him into the "3 Paladins" map.

Edited by BrightBow

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Personally, I think so. However, he had to play himself off as the extreme of Duma's teaching so as to not gather suspicion from the Faithful. He could drop his act in front of no one, until moments before the battle with Alm began. This extended to Berkut. I imagine Rudolf cared about Berkut, but not even Berkut was allowed to see the man that was hidden behind Rudolf's purposefully harsh exterior. 

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From what I remember, my interpretation was that he was harsh to Berkut and wanted him to stay out of the final fight so that Berkut wouldn't lose his life in defending the castle. Of course, that was all for naught.

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I think it does mean something that Massena, probs the closest to Rudolf sans Mycen, says he does but this should be more of a show not tell situation. Even if it's fairly reasonable to believe that Rudolf's harshness was tough love and to stop Berkut from killing himself trying to kill Alm before he kills Rudolf (that's a fun phrase), it would've been nice to have a small monologue from Rudolf before his final battle where he laments the choices he's had to make.

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Of course his Excellency cared! 

Massena tells Alm that Berkut weighed on the Emperor's mind for years. His wishes involving to show Lord Berkut some compassion. 

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I don't know, and I don't think the writers know either because Berkut was just shoved into the plot without actually integrating him in any way. If you remove him, what changes? Absolutely nothing. We know for fact because we have Gaiden. Imagine if Ike had a half brother working for Daein you fight three times in Path of Radiance without him having anything to do with the Greil plot or Mist. That's what Berkut is, a shallow plot element that contributes nothing. People seem to like him for some reason though.  Probably down to character design and voice acting.

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Seeing how his plan was for Alm to beat him (I think, I haven't played Sov in a while), and this plan could only work if Berkut would most likely be beaten multiple times, which would most likely have a big negative influence on him due to how the teaching of Duma works and the fact that he thinks nobility is superior to common-folk. I would say no, not excactly.

Maybe he cared a little bit, but that is never shown.

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8 hours ago, LJwalhout said:

Seeing how his plan was for Alm to beat him (I think, I haven't played Sov in a while), and this plan could only work if Berkut would most likely be beaten multiple times, which would most likely have a big negative influence on him due to how the teaching of Duma works and the fact that he thinks nobility is superior to common-folk. I would say no, not excactly.

Maybe he cared a little bit, but that is never shown.

Alm beating Berkut specifically has no bearing on the plan. 

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On 7/29/2019 at 4:49 AM, Jotari said:

Alm beating Berkut specifically has no bearing on the plan. 

Yes but for the plan to work it would be very likely that Berkut would be beaten seeing how; he is a general, is stationed in the conquered territory and would likely want to prove himself  by beating Alm. I'm more accussing Rudolf of apathy then actually trying to harm him.

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