"Serenes Veterans" And General Xenophobia

[Jyosua]

I would like to inform all you "Serenes Veterans" that you don't exist. There is a reason why we don't have any type of veteran member group here, and this type of behavior:

So be prepared to get the noob treatment, and treat those who have been here ahead of you respect.

But you have to remember, that no matter what your standing at FESS was, to us Serenes Veterans, you're still at the bottom of the food change. You have to work for our respect.

Is EXACTLY why a member group like that does not exist! It's also the same reason why postcounts and resulting upgraded usergroups were removed from FESS. when I setup the forums initially, I decided not to do that, because my ideal was that we could be mature enough to goof off with things like postcount, and allow a more lax environment because we could handle it. Serenes Forest Veteran Elitism is the same problem FESS had with their Veterans, and while I'm laughing at the sheer irony that they're experiencing it now themselves, it needs to stop, and I mean immediately.

Here's the bottom line:

No, everybody's equal. In a sense, you're all at the bottom of the food chain and above you are the admin/mods : D

Yes, it's nice if you've been around on the forums for a long time and have contributed much. I greatly welcome that. But that's not a reason to stand tall above the newer people. Think of it this way: Everyone was new once. It's highly possible that these new people will be the "veterans" of tomorrow. Only if they stay around for long enough that is...

Being a veteran of a forum is not supposed to mean everyone not a veteran has to follow your lead. On top of that, there isn't a veteran group, so if you wish to stand out, then take the new members migrating from FESS, and include them in your activities. With a little help, you can break the ice, and they can become full-fledged contributing members of our community. This is what it means to be an older member of a forum. Being a "veteran" means you are to be like the wise old sage who sits and passes on his wisdom, while guiding the young ones. It doesn't mean you're to be the high school senior picking on the freshman. This isn't high school, this is a community, and in this community, we rely on each other, so every person is as important as the next.

Okay, now that the "Veterans" are taken care of, the rest of this post is directed at the rest of the people exhibiting general Xenophobia towards our new members migrating from FESS.

...I have the worst feeling about this happening, but as long as the people don't try to change SF, I'm fine with it...If they try to change us, it'll quickly turn ugly.

You want to change us. We will not change.

Everyone who is complaining about the old members here complaining needs to shut the fuck up. Yeah, I'm looking at you Blacken. Especially you. I'm not looking at this as a bad thing at all. The point is, things are likely to change, and we all love this place for what it has been. We don't want to lose what we created. LG said we won't, but after reading that rant, I'm not so sure.

Things like this are unacceptable (Especially for someone like a moderator to tell everyone to "shut the fuck up"). If you're going to question the staffs decision, I ask that if it's something like this, which clearly is hurtful towards the new members, that you keep it to PM.

Now to address this issue of "Are things gonna change then?", I don't know what we have to do to reassure you of this, but things are staying the same.

On this same issue:

Blacken, with all due respect, (Which is none at all) Shut the fuck up. Fox is right, 100%. You don't just take a go at Red Fox like that, and go unchallenged. I am so sick of your shit already. We aren't at FESS. FESS is DEAD, in case you forgot. SF is ALIVE, in case you're too dumb to notice. Follow OUR standards, and OUR rules. You can't recreate FESS here. If you want to do that, go somewhere else, and leave us the fuck alone.

Again with the "shut the fuck up"? Telling people to go somewhere else and leave us the fuck alone? Backseat moderation? If that isn't unwelcoming, I don't know what is. If I see other people make a post like that, heads are going to roll.

Basicly, in the words of someone whom had a surprisingly wise moment:

Welcome newcomers. I must inform both new and old members that please, don't try to make drama over something minor and don't let your egos and angry get the best of you. Also, ignore the ones who are trying to make drama.

The Bottom Line of it All:

If I see anyone acting like a dick to the new members, or being elitist, You get a warning. On the second time, a week suspension. That should do it, unless someone TRULY wants to come back and ruin things.

[Cynthia]

Behavior like this that results in things getting stricter and stricter...

[Masu]

Okay?

[TLSothe]

I agree. Some of us have been far far far too harsh on these FESS refugees.

[Mufasa]

Behavior like this that results in things getting stricter and stricter...

I agree with this.

And the stricter things are, the more tense things get. Thus the forums will fall apart.

Everyone here is willing to welcome the new members, but we're also caucious about them as well. As we would any new members. More so this time, because they are coming here in droves of 10 a day. Which is a lot.

[Cynthia]

Two new rules in less than a week, rather sad if you ask me.

[Jyosua]

Behavior like this that results in things getting stricter and stricter...

I'm only being strict on this issue for a short while. After a couple weeks, most of the influx will be gone, so there will be no more need for me to worry about people being dicks to new members. Before this point you guys were nice to new members. I have no idea why the fuck you guys think it's okay to be dicks to FESSers, just because they're from FESS.

[Superbus]

When I started the FESS Veteran's group in 2004, it was with the intention of bringing back all the really old people - the ones that LEFT before I came - that were still friends with a lot of our core members. I wanted to do that, and give the older members - that had issues with our new members at the time themselves - somewhere to be themselves.

I abolished the Veteran board in 2006, turning the group into a title. In 2008, I abolished the group altogether. With very few exceptions, I consider the experiment an abject, total failure.

Why do I consider it a failure? Because it didn't work as intended. The oldbies came by for a week or so, then took back off. Meanwhile, other than as a place to discuss board changes (I set up a tiered system, where I involved the admins, then the mods, then the Veterans; that was a success), the only thing anyone did was make fun of members. "LOL, that kid Arf's a retard" "That kid Hurricane is a moron". (Notice, both members I used as examples turned into exemplary members themselves). Meanwhile, as more people became veterans, more cliques started to form. People of questionable qualifications were voted into the group and those people formed their own little groups; the clique spawned cliques! That's why I killed the board in 2006, and the group should have really been abolished earlier, because while I didn't really view the Veteran group as anything more than a title at that point (and said this oh, about 2903821382103 times), perception is reality in group dynamics, and I still had people being criticized as "not being Veteran material". One member - someone who I considered a friend - even accused me of promoting a female member because I wanted a relationship with her, and this was after I'd started my relationship with my girlfriend! That's how bad the politics got, and I never did forgive that person for what he said.

Call me stupid for going along with the idea if you want (and really, if you do, fuck you, I did this for five years, did it better than anyone, and I have proven myself to the point of never owing anything to anyone ever in this fandom), but there's a lesson in this: cliques always lead to the greater good failing. Period. End of story. Divided, you fall. And while the Veteran group or the issues that came with it didn't kill FESS, I do think it started the clique mentality that ultimately chased off new members.

This thread came from me telling Jyosua that if certain members here kept going after my members, that I was going to start throwing my weight around; believe me when I say 1) that's the last thing I want to do, and 2) if I did do that, I'd have made your issues with Blacken look like nothing. I do honestly believe that my FESSers will integrate with this board, and it will be beneficial to you, them, the fandom, and the series in America and the UK; I still believe that, even after a few of you had me questioning my decision.

But you all need to have some trust in your administrators that they made the right decision. Being pretentious little kids is not going to help them, not going to help the new members, and certainly not going to help you, unless you want to be disciplined.

Let's make this work, guys.

[Jyosua]

Two new rules in less than a week, rather sad if you ask me.

It's comments like these that make people like Blacken call you guys a bunch of whiners. And with reactions like these, I'm going to have to announce the other new rule sooner. But guys, we aren't getting any stricter. With everything else, we tend to give verbal warnings first. This is only a temporary measure.

[Oguma]

I knew this was gonna happen.

Exactly why I wasn't harsh to the newbziez.

[TLSothe]

Okay, look at it this way. My respect for Jyo/Vincent is probably at an all-time high, today.

[Metal Rabbit]

I'm a veteran. I'm not an elitist. I really want this transition to work out.

That said, yeah rules are gonna get stricter when necesary. When we get to the point where the rules aren't so relevant, we won't need them anymore. Right Joshua?

[Defeatist Elitist]

When I started the FESS Veteran's group in 2004, it was with the intention of bringing back all the really old people - the ones that LEFT before I came - that were still friends with a lot of our core members. I wanted to do that, and give the older members - that had issues with our new members at the time themselves - somewhere to be themselves.

I abolished the Veteran board in 2006, turning the group into a title. In 2008, I abolished the group altogether. With very few exceptions, I consider the experiment an abject, total failure.

Why do I consider it a failure? Because it didn't work as intended. The oldbies came by for a week or so, then took back off. Meanwhile, other than as a place to discuss board changes (I set up a tiered system, where I involved the admins, then the mods, then the Veterans; that was a success), the only thing anyone did was make fun of members. "LOL, that kid Arf's a retard" "That kid Hurricane is a moron". (Notice, both members I used as examples turned into exemplary members themselves). Meanwhile, as more people became veterans, more cliques started to form. People of questionable qualifications were voted into the group and those people formed their own little groups; the clique spawned cliques! That's why I killed the board in 2006, and the group should have really been abolished earlier, because while I didn't really view the Veteran group as anything more than a title at that point (and said this oh, about 2903821382103 times), perception is reality in group dynamics, and I still had people being criticized as "not being Veteran material". One member - someone who I considered a friend - even accused me of promoting a female member because I wanted a relationship with her, and this was after I'd started my relationship with my girlfriend! That's how bad the politics got, and I never did forgive that person for what he said.

Call me stupid for going along with the idea if you want (and really, if you do, fuck you, I did this for five years, did it better than anyone, and I have proven myself to the point of never owing anything to anyone ever in this fandom), but there's a lesson in this: cliques always lead to the greater good failing. Period. End of story. Divided, you fall. And while the Veteran group or the issues that came with it didn't kill FESS, I do think it started the clique mentality that ultimately chased off new members.

This thread came from me telling Jyosua that if certain members here kept going after my members, that I was going to start throwing my weight around; believe me when I say 1) that's the last thing I want to do, and 2) if I did do that, I'd have made your issues with Blacken look like nothing. I do honestly believe that my FESSers will integrate with this board, and it will be beneficial to you, them, the fandom, and the series in America and the UK; I still believe that, even after a few of you had me questioning my decision.

But you all need to have some trust in your administrators that they made the right decision. Being pretentious little kids is not going to help them, not going to help the new members, and certainly not going to help you, unless you want to be disciplined.

Let's make this work, guys.

While threatening isn't exactly a great way to make me want to agree with you, I must say that you're basically right.

Being a Veteran has nothing to do with anything. You post. People decide if they like you or not based on how/what you post. Saying you're better for being here longer, or saying that new people are automatically going to be bad isn't very clever.

[TLSothe]

While threatening isn't exactly a great way to make me want to agree with you, I must say that you're basically right.

Being a Veteran has nothing to do with anything. You post. People decide if they like you or not based on how/what you post. Saying you're better for being here longer, or saying that new people are automatically going to be bad isn't very clever.

You suck because I have been around longer, so shut up you little nooby asshole!

Kidding, kiidding! I agree completely with the bolded.

[Defeatist Elitist]

You suck because I have been around longer, so shut up you little nooby asshole!

Kidding, kiidding! I agree completely with the bolded.

I could quote posts that you made when you first joined FEU that would make anyone cringe in shame, so don't take that tone with me young man! :P

[Masu]

Theres seriously ppl being asses to FESSugees? I've already made friends with like 5 of em!

[TLSothe]

I could quote posts that you made when you first joined FEU that would make anyone cringe in shame, so don't take that tone with me young man! :P

Yes sir...

Theres seriously ppl being asses to FESSugees? I've already made friends with like 5 of em!

A few, and only certain ones. I was an asshole to Blacken, and such. But, I must say, I was afraid when I learned that FESS was coming. I thought they would try to change us. I was afraid. I was wrong.

[Cynthia]

It's comments like these that make people like Blacken call you guys a bunch of whiners. And with reactions like these, I'm going to have to announce the other new rule sooner. But guys, we aren't getting any stricter. With everything else, we tend to give verbal warnings first. This is only a temporary measure.

You misinterpreted what I said.

I was disappointed in the people making a NEED for such new rules, not the rules themselves. I actually support the idea.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Cynthia

[Defeatist Elitist]

A few, and only certain ones. I was an asshole to Blacken, and such. But, I must say, I was afraid when I learned that FESS was coming. I thought they would try to change us. I was afraid. I was wrong.

I seriously don't think we should worry about change. Not all change is bad. Lots of change is good.

[Metal Rabbit]

I wish they'd post more in FFTF :(

[Dr. Tarrasque]

... How does being in a forum more than any1 else make you a veteran/not "the bottom of the food chain"? I don't understand the logic behind that.

[TLSothe]

I seriously don't think we should worry about change. Not all change is bad. Lots of change is good.

Yes, it is. I can appreciate them wanting us to change--for the better. However, I expected to get a bunch of whining and complaining.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

You know for a sec there I thought I'd be one of the few people that would be quoted up top. But yeah, I've been wondering for a very long time why Veteran's don't. But I think I already gotten my answer.

[Superbus]

Yes sir...

A few, and only certain ones. I was an asshole to Blacken, and such. But, I must say, I was afraid when I learned that FESS was coming. I thought they would try to change us. I was afraid. I was wrong.

I love Blacken like a brother.

But I hope in his time away that he learns when to pull back. He made a very poignant point, I believed, and thought he did it very well. But he couldn't stop; he had to go into chat, he had to keep bashing the point home... it was like watching a staring contest where both participants had to hold their breath; just a painful experience.

Most people, when they put their hands on a hot burner, say "oh shit! That's hot! I need to pull back!". Blacken's instinct - and again, I trust this man with my LIFE - is to go "if I keep my hand here, I'll make it not hurt anymore! Fuck you, fire!"

[Raven]

I honestly don't think this will change SF.

If anything did change, I believe it will be for the best. As long as the new members behave and post well, then nothing bad will go wrong.

From what I've seen so far, I have no complaints. If I do, I'll be in touch wih an online administrator, or Vincent if none are online. But I really don't think it will come to this.