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Nintendo confirmed Information about the church *SPOILERS*

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Idk if I would consider this a "spoiler" considering there was legit no other way this could go. Whether or not they pull something else out, or the church isn't the FULL big bad is questionable, but I don't think anyone is shocked.

And I don't know if anyone really messed up, because it seems like a very basic description. There was always going to be more to the story then "Just train your units in this monastery", so this seems right on course for a simple plot description.

If anything I'm hoping this means we get out of the monastery relatively early. I'm assuming the game is going to be broken up into 3-ish parts, with the monastery really just being the 1st part that sets up the growth of your characters/characterization/world-building, before the meat of the story really gets going. Which I'm 100% okay with. 

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1 hour ago, Hekselka said:

2. FE has never done a full blown "the church is evil" so it's only fair they get their shot at it :p 

It sort-of did in FE4. . .and again in Awakening. . .

. . .ahem.

The rule of FE seems to be "if religion is a plot point, we're going to have to kick their asses eventually".  This is both unsurprising and disappointing.

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1 minute ago, Jingle Jangle said:

Does Begnion count because it is a theocracy?

The thing about Tellius is that their religion was both antagonistic and neutral.  Yes, Ashera was throwing a temper tantrum, but it wasn't because she was inherently evil.  It was a prime example of humanity twisting religion for its own ends.  Begnion itself was riddled with problems due to its leadership.  IMO if it wasn't a theocracy, the same thing would've occurred anyway, minus the divine intervention.

I don't much care for Tellius, but IMO this is one of the things it did right.

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My prediction thus far has been that all four factions will be manipulated by a dark force and that religion itself is not to blame but instead the typical dark dragon/god who has awakened after X amount of years. Reforming the church is just the first of the four factions we would reform. If our goal is not reform but destruction, then I guess my bet is out. 

This is why we should be vetting our teachers. Teach our students to ask questions yes, but not to be subversives or anarchists. Oh well, I'm not gonna be a part of this system.

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9 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

This is why we should be vetting our teachers. Teach our students to ask questions yes, but not to be subversives or anarchists. Oh well, I'm not gonna be a part of this system.

Hoo boy, I could go into a lecture about how hard this would be. . .

. . .but this isn't the topic to complain about whether Byleth will be subjected to the forces that RL teachers have to deal with.

This is, however, an excellent argument for separating religion and education! :P:

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

. . .but this isn't the topic to complain about whether Byleth will be subjected to the forces that RL teachers have to deal with.

You aren't looking forward to the roleplay immersion of our students' parents harassing us when they fail their class change exams? Or us having to use our personal gold supply to buy students their weapons and vulneraries?

(Real talk, I'm actually pretty impressed the extent to which they've integrated this teacher fantasy with gameplay mechanics. It's neat. Even though we'll be able to romance them eventually afahifgafgsfhgefaf.)

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Antagonistic church, huh. Would be interesting if they were still overall good; and it's just the "heroes" being misguided/manipulated/tricked/actually-bad-for-once. Then again, my hopes aren't really that high for that.

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51 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It sort-of did in FE4. . .and again in Awakening. . .

. . .ahem.

The rule of FE seems to be "if religion is a plot point, we're going to have to kick their asses eventually".  This is both unsurprising and disappointing.

Not really. FE usually plays religion and religious characters as (untruthfully, in my opinion) positive forces. We have an entire support class that is explicitly religious and positively portrayed.

 

When FE portrays religion negatively, it is almost always in the form of a cult, not a mainstream religion. And while I'd argue that all religions are cults, others would make a distinction, and that distinction is obvious here.

 

This could very well be the franchise's first ever negative portrayal of a mainstream religion.

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58 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It sort-of did in FE4. . .and again in Awakening. . .

. . .ahem.

The rule of FE seems to be "if religion is a plot point, we're going to have to kick their asses eventually".  This is both unsurprising and disappointing.

Ah, you're right.

I guess they didn't came to mind because I always saw the Loptyr and Grimleal as evil cults.

Edited by Hekselka

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24 minutes ago, Disclaimer said:

You aren't looking forward to the roleplay immersion of our students' parents harassing us when they fail their class change exams? Or us having to use our personal gold supply to buy students their weapons and vulneraries?

(Real talk, I'm actually pretty impressed the extent to which they've integrated this teacher fantasy with gameplay mechanics. It's neat. Even though we'll be able to romance them eventually afahifgafgsfhgefaf.)

No, and I can live without things like grading papers until stupidly late at night, the dumb comments about "you're only working ten months", and the faculty meetings.  Please.  No more meetings!

and people wonder why I hate school settings

4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Not really. FE usually plays religion and religious characters as (untruthfully, in my opinion) positive forces. We have an entire support class that is explicitly religious and positively portrayed.

 

When FE portrays religion negatively, it is almost always in the form of a cult, not a mainstream religion. And while I'd argue that all religions are cults, others would make a distinction, and that distinction is obvious here.

 

This could very well be the franchise's first ever negative portrayal of a mainstream religion.

You DO realize that there's good people and bad people in a sufficiently large group?  But "Local church pastor feeds nearby homeless population" isn't a very exciting headline.

Of the truly negative portrayal of religion, Loptyr, the Grimleal, Duma's worshippers (to an extent), and whatever the hell was in Nohr were all state-sponsored.  Of the rest, I explained Tellius previously, the church of Elimine contributed but wasn't a key player in Elibe, Archanea's religion seemed to be founded on dragons or something (Gotoh pitched in more than Elimine's church, but again wasn't the focus of the story), and Rausten's claim to fame was Ivaldi, Latona, and the last remaining stone.

In other words, if the religion is a focus, it's probably bad, with the exception being Tellius.  And I am proud of Tellius for being that exception.

2 minutes ago, Hekselka said:

Ah, you're right.

I guess they didn't came to mind because I always saw the Loptyr and Grimleal as evil cults.

There's a fine line between cults and religions!  I also forgot Duma.  OOF!

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I’m kind of convinced they just did that to throw us off. I believe there is a greater “evil” behind all of this fiasco. 

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Loptyr and Grimleal may be state sponsored, but their portrayal is overwhelmingly that of the cult as portrayed in modern society. They are literally a straight up port of what modern Christian society thinks of when they think "atheist" or "pagan," portrayed with such cartoonish and on the nose evil as to be almost comedic.

 

The Duma faithful at least have a case for being a mainstream religion because they were presumably benign at one point and were only corrupted by the madness of their deity. But, again, their portrayal is that of a cult.

 

And you're of course ignoring Mila's faithful, a more contemporary mainstream religion, which is portrayed 100% positively.

Edited by Etheus

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The difference here is that Grimleal, Duma and Loptyr are not depicted as main religions to the viewpoint charaters. They are something outsiders(enemies) practise in other places. 

 

Seiros Church being antagonistic is comparable to Mila or Naga cults being antagonistic. In Three Houses, the player character begins by working directly FOR the church. Can you say anything comparable about Grimleal or Duma cults?

Edited by Mapina

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54 minutes ago, eclipse said:

No, and I can live without things like grading papers until stupidly late at night, the dumb comments about "you're only working ten months", and the faculty meetings.  Please.  No more meetings!

 

All those characters are significantly less charming when you imagine having them on your class. "Lorentz, stop hitting on Hilda and focus on this Damn Math Problem ! And Hilda, stop making boys do your own exercises" "I remind you again that you can't bring your Pegasus in Class" "Felix, this is a group exercice, you don't have to do everything alone"

Most of them being noble kids probably makes them even worse, since Daddy probably financed the school or something.

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53 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Loptyr and Grimleal may be state sponsored, but their portrayal is overwhelmingly that of the cult as portrayed in modern society. They are literally a straight up port of what modern Christian society thinks of when they think "atheist" or "pagan," portrayed with such cartoonish and on the nose evil as to be almost comedic.

 

The Duma faithful at least have a case for being a mainstream religion because they were presumably benign at one point and were only corrupted by the madness of their deity. But, again, their portrayal is that of a cult.

 

And you're of course ignoring Mila's faithful, a more contemporary mainstream religion, which is portrayed 100% positively.

Your point about Loptyr/Grimleal might've made sense if there was an equally positive religion in either of those worlds.  I'm pretty sure the closest was Naga in Awakening, and I really don't remember if FE4 had a Loptyr counterpart.  Regardless, by the second generation, Loptyr would've taken over anyway, thus making any other competing religion a heretical one (in their eyes).

Both Mila and Duma are meant to be extremes.  Mila's downsides aren't as overblown as Duma's, but they're there (case in point: complaints about Celica).

45 minutes ago, Mapina said:

The difference here is that Grimleal, Duma and Loptyr are not depicted as main religions to the viewpoint charaters. They are something outsiders(enemies) practise in other other places. 

 

Seiros Church being antagonistic is comparable to Mila or Naga cults being antagonistic. In Three Houses, the player character begins by working directly FOR the church. Can you say anything comparable about Grimleal or Duma cults?

Robin's role in the Grimleal is a pretty big plot point!

For Duma, at least one of the characters is directly related to a significant figure.  Unfortunately, details are scant about how her life was before Celica recruited her.

Given the theme of Gaiden/Echoes, it's pretty clear that neither side was supposed to be fully good - merely "in your face" bad and "looks good on the outside" bad.  I'd go as far as to say that Gaiden/Echoes is the least friendly to religions out of the entire FE franchise (seeing as both gods were deposed of in the end, in favor of mankind forging their own way).

As for Three Houses?  I'll deal with that when it gets there.  I'll be impressed if they top Tellius' portrayal of religion.

10 minutes ago, Tamanoir said:

All those characters are significantly less charming when you imagine having them on your class. "Lorentz, stop hitting on Hilda and focus on this Damn Math Problem ! And Hilda, stop making boys do your own exercises" "I remind you again that you can't bring your Pegasus in Class" "Felix, this is a group exercice, you don't have to do everything alone"

Most of them being noble kids probably makes them even worse, since Daddy probably financed the school or something.

So, a snobby private school?  Oh Byleth, I already feel sorry for you!

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5 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Your point about Loptyr/Grimleal might've made sense if there was an equally positive religion in either of those worlds.  I'm pretty sure the closest was Naga in Awakening, and I really don't remember if FE4 had a Loptyr counterpart.  Regardless, by the second generation, Loptyr would've taken over anyway, thus making any other competing religion a heretical one (in their eyes).

There's the Church of Edda, established by Crusader Blagi. Which is a combination of the old religion before Loptyr took over, and Maira's teachings. Amusingly, it would make it heretical to the main Loptyr's church. Maira was definitely practicing and teaching a heresy of it, at least. Info here.

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4 minutes ago, Sasori said:

Maybe the twist this time will be that the church is secretly not evil?

Or rather, you think the entire church is evil and start to conspire against the whole organisation, only to find a part of the Church - led by Rhea is opposed to the evil part, led by the other archbishops.

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5 minutes ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

Or rather, you think the entire church is evil and start to conspire against the whole organisation, only to find a part of the Church - led by Rhea is opposed to the evil part, led by the other archbishops.

I can see that as a possibility

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43 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Your point about Loptyr/Grimleal might've made sense if there was an equally positive religion in either of those worlds.  I'm pretty sure the closest was Naga in Awakening, and I really don't remember if FE4 had a Loptyr counterpart.  Regardless, by the second generation, Loptyr would've taken over anyway, thus making any other competing religion a heretical one (in their eyes).

Both Mila and Duma are meant to be extremes.  Mila's downsides aren't as overblown as Duma's, but they're there (case in point: complaints about Celica).

Robin's role in the Grimleal is a pretty big plot point!

For Duma, at least one of the characters is directly related to a significant figure.  Unfortunately, details are scant about how her life was before Celica recruited her.

Given the theme of Gaiden/Echoes, it's pretty clear that neither side was supposed to be fully good - merely "in your face" bad and "looks good on the outside" bad.  I'd go as far as to say that Gaiden/Echoes is the least friendly to religions out of the entire FE franchise (seeing as both gods were deposed of in the end, in favor of mankind forging their own way).

As for Three Houses?  I'll deal with that when it gets there.  I'll be impressed if they top Tellius' portrayal of religion.

So, a snobby private school?  Oh Byleth, I already feel sorry for you!

But here's the thing. There is always a benign religion in operation, even if it is never portrayed directly. Or are you going to tell me with a straight face that Libra is a friar of nothing? He's not representing the Grimleal for damn sure.

 

The fact is that when something is benign, we take it for granted. That's how the real world works. Things stand out as noteworthy when they are broken, not when they are a part of everyday life.

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Thani had this to say about this reveal (copy-pasted here if you can't access Reddit):

Spoiler

UrielBarachiel: Intern-kun at the UK Nintendo Facebook page accidentally spoiled that in the game you have to take down the Church of Seiros (or “Serios” as he says). Not sure if this proves or disproves you.

thanibomb: Oh my! There are different factions of the church. Some are noble in their intentions while some are not. Think of the Begnion Senate but less... black and white? There’s a certain “flame” you have to deal with early in the game as well.

UrielBarachiel: Thanks for the answer! So you say we aren’t going all out and bringing down the whole church like intern-kun accidentally implied? 

thanibomb: The whole church? Hmm... I’ll leave that for you to find out! Considering you can recruit some vital members what do you personally think?

UrielBarachiel: I don’t feel like I have enough information to make a good guess. If your leak is all accurate I’d say we aren’t going to bring down the whole church. But for all we know now for sure, Byleth could still turn into a giant demon and yeet Rhea off a cliff.

Source: 

 

Edited by BZL8
Added spoilers

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46 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

There's the Church of Edda, established by Crusader Blagi. Which is a combination of the old religion before Loptyr took over, and Maira's teachings. Amusingly, it would make it heretical to the main Loptyr's church. Maira was definitely practicing and teaching a heresy of it, at least. Info here.

There's also the faith of Heim in FE5, which Safy regularly refers to as "god", and has churches here and there. Linoan, for all intents and purposes, seems to also be a practitioner of that faith. It's unclear how big it gets to be in a post Loptyr takeover world, though.
Edit: Actually I was basing this on Safy's Cipher cards directly mentioning Heim, but in them she also mentions multiple gods as opposed to a single one like she does in Thracia.

Saias, who is also from FE5, is supposedly a bishop of Blagi according to the wikia, for what it's worth. Like Linoan and unlike Safy, his character revolves around other themes first and foremost so it's hard to say for sure beyond him factually being a bishop of something.

Edited by Cysx

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24 minutes ago, BZL8 said:

Thani had this to say about this reveal (copy-pasted here if you can't access Reddit):

  Hide contents

UrielBarachiel: Intern-kun at the UK Nintendo Facebook page accidentally spoiled that in the game you have to take down the Church of Seiros (or “Serios” as he says). Not sure if this proves or disproves you.

thanibomb: Oh my! There are different factions of the church. Some are noble in their intentions while some are not. Think of the Begnion Senate but less... black and white? There’s a certain “flame” you have to deal with early in the game as well.

UrielBarachiel: Thanks for the answer! So you say we aren’t going all out and bringing down the whole church like intern-kun accidentally implied? 

thanibomb: The whole church? Hmm... I’ll leave that for you to find out! Considering you can recruit some vital members what do you personally think?

UrielBarachiel: I don’t feel like I have enough information to make a good guess. If your leak is all accurate I’d say we aren’t going to bring down the whole church. But for all we know now for sure, Byleth could still turn into a giant demon and yeet Rhea off a cliff.

Source: 

 

Yeah sounds about right, I can imagine characters like Rhea are opposed to the factions of the church who allow the experimentation of the crests, my theory is that the pale dude in Trailer 2 is one of the Archbishops of the Church of Seiros and holds a major crest inside him, and allowed for experimentation on his crest turning him physically different but enhancing his magical abilities further. I could totally see the girl with the shaky eye be a "test subject" and the close up on the eye is the exact moment when her crest is "awakened" via experiments. Think Izuka and the Feral Ones, where the archbishop is experimenting on the unique blood of a species to create an "Awakened" soldier with enhanced abilities due to their crests being awakened. Due to the Empire's link to the Church I could totally see a late game boss in Edelgard's path where her father willingly lets this process take him over to defend the religion. This could also: [ThaniSpoilers]

Spoiler

be what happened to Lysithea; as according to Thani, her backstory is tragic and links heavily to the crests. My prediction is she has a major crest and her family willingly allowed her to be "awakened" but managed to escape the process or something.

 

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