Nintendo confirmed Information about the church *SPOILERS*

[TheDreamReturns]

Honestly, the only reason Fire Emblem is seen as more “anime” now than it used to be is it’s “marry whoever you want” stuff added in Awakening and Fates.

It makes players think they’re playing an empowerment fantasy, only instead of being the more accepted kind of power fantasy they barely notice where main character saves the world from one dimensional evil with the power of bonds and goodness, we now add “YOU THE PLAYER can also pick a wife that confesses their love straight to you and have an OP baby” which gives people the feeling of “this game is a dating sim for lonely otaku isn’t it...”.

The empowerment fantasy is far more noticeable than it used to be, and due to the “everyone can support everyone” approach characters need to play up their quirks so the writers never run out of material, which leads to characters feeling more trope-tastic than they used to.

Fire Emblem is no more anime than it used to be, it simply changed as the series progressed and it became more transparent about it.

Edited May 24, 2019 by TheDreamReturns

[Ottservia]

45 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

I think he just means the quality of the writing isn't as good as games like echoes or path of radiance, as well as certain mechanics like marriage, avatars and child units coming back for every new main game now, because I'd agree with those concerns if that's what they are.

Sure, three houses isn't out yet, but to be honest...I have no faith the fanbase wouldn't defend the crap out of three houses even if it's story was another fates, since there's just too many people now that ONLY care about the characters and features to do with them...rather than getting another path of radiance or echoes again.

ok first of all did you just say echoes's writing is on par with PoR? Cause uh...no SoV's writing is only slightly better than fates's writing and I defy you to change my mind on that. Seriously SoV's story is shit and I don't see why people praise it so much. (I can certainly see why the story would be enjoyable to some but to say that story is even remotely of good writing quality is something I have to disagree with)

second off yes, but anime cliches are never inherently bad. Just because something is an overused trope that doesn't automatically mean it's terrible. That kind of approach to criticism is very close minded if you ask me. As others have stated in this tread it's all in the execution. Geez I hate when people make arguments like that.

[Dinar87]

16 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

ok first of all did you just say echoes's writing is on par with PoR? Cause uh...no SoV's writing is only slightly better than fates's writing and I defy you to change my mind on that. Seriously SoV's story is shit and I don't see why people praise it so much. (I can certainly see why the story would be enjoyable to some but to say that story is even remotely of good writing quality is something I have to disagree with)

second off yes, but anime cliches are never inherently bad. Just because something is an overused trope that doesn't automatically mean it's terrible. That kind of approach to criticism is very close minded if you ask me. As others have stated in this tread it's all in the execution. Geez I hate when people make arguments like that.

Heavily disagree there, SoV's story was AMAZING, and infinitely better than fate's plot and characters. Sure it wasn't perfect in everyway, but I really enjoyed it.

Also, yes the execution plays a part in how good something is, rather than whether or not it's an "anime cliche"...but on the otherhand, some directions are more interesting to more people than other directions. True, there's nothing inherently wrong with taking something like game of thrones for example, and making it full of slapstick comedy and stuff (as none of it can be inherently bad)...but it's about what fans want at the end of the day, and a lot of veteran fans weren't happy with fates, except for conquest's gameplay.

I'd wager veteran fans don't want to see fire emblem taken in a direction of "highschool" dynamics and no real wars in the main settings and stuff, even if it was executed well. Not saying Three Houses is that for certain, but IF it was.



As for the whole "power fantasy" thing. That's not what I have an issue with specifically, it's the amount of player worship that gets annoying for me when I play these games.


In the end, I'm not going to try and stop anyone from enjoying Three Houses or fates, or anything...but I will voice my opinions and tastes on what I want out of fire emblem.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Dinar87

[TheDreamReturns]

10 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

As for the whole "power fantasy" thing. That's not what I have an issue with specifically, it's the amount of player worship that gets annoying for me when I play these games.

I completely forgot to mention that, yeah player worship is definitely part of the equation here too (arguably the most egregious part).

As for Echoes, I’m 50/50 on the game’s story, it’s nice but I have my own set of issues with it. None of which are related to the thread in any way so I’ll refrain from brining it up.

Edited May 24, 2019 by TheDreamReturns

[Ottservia]

24 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

Heavily disagree there, SoV's story was AMAZING, and infinitely better than fate's plot and characters. Sure it wasn't perfect in everyway, but I really enjoyed it.

I don't you but I consider that blatantly contradicts the very foundation it's built upon(its theme's and messages) without at all acknowledging it to be bad writing. But again that's just me. Also Berkut is a shit villain and I will stand by that opinion.

24 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

True, there's nothing inherently wrong with taking something like game of thrones for example, and making it full of slapstick comedy and stuff (as none of it can be inherently bad)...

Actually there is something inherently wrong with turning a show like game of thrones into a slapstick comedy. Why? because GoT never intended to be that kind of story. It intended to be a gritty war epic that follows themes of deception and betrayal so to just not do that would be a betrayal of audience expectations and a betrayal of the themes and messages that story sets out to tell. What's not inherently wrong though is a fire emblem game putting a kuudere or tsundere into its cast of characters or telling a generic battle-shounen story(coughpathofradiencecough). That isn't a bad thing because while the "Fire Emblem" title brings with it certain exceptions and promises, those promises can be fulfilled in a variety of ways. So long as it keeps true to what the core of the series is supposed to be no idea is inherently bad. Your analogy just doesn't work. Fire emblem following anime trends is not a bad thing cause that's what it has always done. 

Whenever you critique something, you should critique it for what it's trying to be not for what you think it should be or want it to be. Just because you don't like something that does not make it objectively terrible. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ottservia

[Gregster101]

I'll acknowledge that Echoes' story isn't perfect and has some flaws. But I still really love Echoes' story for what it is. It was something that I needed after Fates' story left such a stain in my heart. To say it's only slightly better than Fates' story is simply unfair imo.

I know it can be argued that the only reason Berkut is good is because of a. Ian Sinclair's voice acting, and b. the fact that he came after the Fates shit show of villains that are Garon, Iago, Hans, and Anankos, who are universally cited to be some of the worst villains in the entire franchise. Even without Ian's voice acting, I still found myself really engaged in Berkut throughout the story. He actually had depth to him unlike the Fates villains and I was super invested into him.

[Ottservia]

6 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

I'll acknowledge that Echoes' story isn't perfect and has some flaws. But I still really love Echoes' story for what it is. It was something that I needed after Fates' story left such a stain in my heart. To say it's only slightly better than Fates' story is simply unfair imo.

may have been slight over exaggeration on my part but if there's one thing I've come to realize about SoV's story is that it suffers from almost the exact same problems as fate's story does just not nearly to that degree.

8 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

I know it can be argued that the only reason Berkut is good is because of a. Ian Sinclair's voice acting, and b. the fact that he came after the Fates shit show of villains that are Garon, Iago, Hans, and Anankos, who are universally cited to be some of the worst villains in the entire franchise. Even without Ian's voice acting, I still found myself really engaged in Berkut throughout the story. He actually had depth to him unlike the Fates villains and I was super invested into him.

I said Berkut was a bad villain. I never said he was a bad character. Berkut is a very interesting case because again he's the prime example of an amazing character being utilized so poorly by the plot making him a shit villain. There's a difference between a bad villain and a bad character. It's a fine line(at least in some cases) but it exists.Like the purpose of a villain or antagonist is to oppose our protagonist in a meaningful conflict to which Berkut tries to do to his credit(key word there being "tries") however the conflict he and Alm engage in is ultimately rendered meaningless because of the contradictions present within the story. The conflict just cannot work because it just makes Alm(and by extension the story) out to be a hypocrite which is just bad writing if you ask me. 

[Gregster101]

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

may have been slight over exaggeration on my part but if there's one thing I've come to realize about SoV's story is that it suffers from almost the exact same problems as fate's story does just not nearly to that degree.

I said Berkut was a bad villain. I never said he was a bad character. Berkut is a very interesting case because again he's the prime example of an amazing character being utilized so poorly by the plot making him a shit villain. There's a difference between a bad villain and a bad character. It's a fine line(at least in some cases) but it exists.Like the purpose of a villain or antagonist is to oppose our protagonist in a meaningful conflict to which Berkut tries to do to his credit(key word there being "tries") however the conflict he and Alm engage in is ultimately rendered meaningless because of the contradictions present within the story. The conflict just cannot work because it just makes Alm(and by extension the story) out to be a hypocrite which is just bad writing if you ask me. 

Even if Alm is revealed to be a royal in the end, that doesn't mean he sure as hell acts like one. He's still the same farm boy that he was at the beginning of the game.

[Ottservia]

9 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Even if Alm is revealed to be a royal in the end, that doesn't mean he sure as hell acts like one. He's still the same farm boy that he was at the beginning of the game.

still doesn't change the fact that it contradicts the message present within the story. What the the story tries to say is "The station's of one's birth does not determine a man's worth. It is their actions and ideals that do" Anyone can be a leader and anyone can be a king so long as they have the resolve and motivation to do so and bloodline has nothing to do with it except that it does. Alm being a leader and a king is in his birthright and the only reason he is as powerful as he is is because of his royal bloodline otherwise he would've never have been able to wield the royal sword or unseal falchion. It is because of his bloodline that he was able to do those things not because of his determination, resolve, strength, or willpower. This means by extension that Berkut was right that "yes, the station of one's birth does determine a man's worth in this world" cause only those who are born special can save the world and become king at least that's how the story presents it. It's contradictory no matter how you look at it meaning any conflict that arises from this thematic through line is rendered meaningless to the audience and cannot work.

This isn't to say contradictory characters and themes don't have it's place in media(Hell that's what Naruto's entire story is all about) but it needs to be handled with far more nuance and at the very least acknowledge the contradictions to be effective.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ottservia

[B.Leu]

2 hours ago, Tamanoir said:

Well, being really divised about everything is our main characteristic as a fandom.
Seeing as people are already bashing on a game that isn't even out yet, that wouldn't be too surprising.

Myself, I think I would actually prefer a simple story told well, than an ambitious mess like Fates.

It's the main characteristic of every fandom you mean. :p
And every society. Or every country. Or whatever.

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Y’kn You’re kind of forgetting the fact that fire emblem has always had anime tropes and cliches in its writing ever since the very first installment so your complaint here is completely moot

I know you are not talking to me, but I quote you because, well, it's convenient for me to tackle the 'anime problem' 
Fates and Awakening have a plot and characters that can be summed up as 'anime tropes, used badly', Fates slighty less so, but still pretty bad. Compare to other Fire Emblem, like every other titles, even Echoes. Who have Faye. Seriously, the change are uncanny.

You never seen Ike awkwardly walking while some girl were bathing, no ? Or Eliwood and co having a beach episode ? Or any character of those game being a walking, one dimensional, representation of a trope ? Here's the difference. Awakening/Fates is stupidly anime, while the others, not so much at all. Hell, FE4/FE5 can be called genuine dark fantasy.
Even after all this time, I have a hard time to associate my first Fire Emblem, FE7, with something anime, because it doesn't seem like that at all.

I can't exactly blame people to be cautious when the avatar of Three Houses is the new teacher and the game is seemingly into a highschool setting (something that manga and anime love use, most of the time poorly). It's how they use it in the end, and I agree, but it's hard to trust them after Awakening and Fates.

Of course jumping the gun doesn't help. I'll see what the game will be at the end.

[PrincessAlyson]

32 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

still doesn't change the fact that it contradicts the message present within the story. What the the story tries to say is "The station's of one's birth does not determine a man's worth. It is their actions and ideals that do"

I agree with you. While I think Echoes's story is decent, that is one of its glaring flaws. There is no way Echoes is equal to Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn in terms of storytelling. That's just my opinion, but I stand by it.

Also.. I agree that overused tropes can still be done well. It's all in the execution and presentation. However, I am certainly getting sick of the "Chruch/religion is evil" trope that seems to be everywhere now. If Three Houses can spin so that one or more faction are corrupt but one or more factions are on your side, I'd be all for it. Or perhaps it could be a mistake where our characters think the Church is all bad due to some info they have, but they don't have the full story. Once it's cleared up, you can then proceed to fight whatever main antagonist there is. There are many possibilities for how this could turn out.

I certainly don't intend to judge the story until I know all of it and have played through the game.

[Ottservia]

18 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Fates and Awakening have a plot and characters that can be summed up as 'anime tropes, used badly', Fates slighty less so, but still pretty bad. Compare to other Fire Emblem, like every other titles, even Echoes. Who have Faye. Seriously, the change are uncanny.

Fate's I'll somewhat agree with you on that. Awakening hell no. That game tells a good story and I will stand by that opinion. if you want to debate with me on that I will gladly do so.

18 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

You never seen Ike awkwardly walking while some girl were bathing, no ? Or Eliwood and co having a beach episode ? Or any character of those game being a walking, one dimensional, representation of a trope ? Here's the difference. Awakening/Fates is stupidly anime, while the others, not so much at all. Hell, FE4/FE5 can be called genuine dark fantasy.

No, but they do follow very similar trends of anime of the era in which they were released. PoR is VERY reminiscent of the big three in terms of overall structure, themes, characters, tone, and plot progression. Fe 4 and 5 are reminiscent of manga like berserk and gundam in terms of structure, themes, tone, and plot progression. Also a character being a walking representation of a trope is not a bad thing. That just means the trope is being played straight and there's nothing wrong with that. Again it's all in the execution. If the character is one-dimensional that's not the fault of the trope that's just the fault of the writing being bad. Nothing more nothing less. Also what's wrong with beach episodes? I have yet to hear a single good argument as to why those types of DLC/episodes are objectively a bad thing. Fe has always been anime it's just that anime has grown and changed over the many decades it has been around and as such so to has fire emblem(for better or for worse). To say that FE has never been anime is just incorrect. sheesh I absolutely despise the "too anime" argument because it's not an argument. It's just a statement of fact of fact. Like yeah it is anime, so? I mean you're not wrong in that assessment but that doesn't tell me why that's an objectively bad thing. It just tells me what it is. Again if you use that argument, I'm sorry but that's not an argument just a statement of fact.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ottservia

[Flere210]

17 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Every fire emblem game have a plot and characters that can be summed up as 'anime tropes, used badly'.

FTFY

19 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

You never seen Ike awkwardly walking while some girl were bathing, no ? Or Eliwood and co having a beach episode ?

Have you ever seen Luffy or Naruto walking while some girl were bathing? Maybe once every 400 chapters. Ike is basically a shonen jump stereotype that make Asta from Black Clover looks original by comparisson, he only miss the edgy rival(unless the BK count). "Game inspired by an anime genre" does not have "clichè of another anime genre" therefore is not anime.

24 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

 Or any character of those game being a walking, one dimensional, representation of a trope ?

Characters from fateswekening are only a one dimensional trope if you read their join conversation and stop there. Chacter for any pre-3ds, non-PoR games often does not even have a discernable personality if you stop at their first conversation. Hell, some of them does not even get lines outside of supports. And if you judge fateswekening characters on their worst supports when they just throw around theur gimmicks, then you should also judge pre-3ds charcters on their bad supports when they are the yes-man to the other chacter(and there are many of them). This argument seem alway a double standars were some charcters are judged on their best moments and other on their worsts.

30 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Hell, FE4/FE5 can be called genuine dark fantasy.

Even after all this time, I have a hard time to associate my first Fire Emblem, FE7, with something anime, because it doesn't seem like that at all.

The jugdral saga is heavily inspired by gundam, LoGH and Berserk, wich guess what, are among the most popular anime of that age. And if you don't see how fe7 is anime, then you were not accustomed to fantasy animes of the late 90s, early 2000s, because the simalirities are obvious. The concept of anime itself changed a lot over time, and fire emblem was consistently inspired by CONTEMPORANY animes. Right now the big thing in anime are trashy ln adaptations about an overpowered MC getting an harem, so guess what fire emblem is about now?

[Boatcat2111]

2 hours ago, Gregster101 said:

I'll acknowledge that Echoes' story isn't perfect and has some flaws. But I still really love Echoes' story for what it is. It was something that I needed after Fates' story left such a stain in my heart. To say it's only slightly better than Fates' story is simply unfair imo.

I know it can be argued that the only reason Berkut is good is because of a. Ian Sinclair's voice acting, and b. the fact that he came after the Fates shit show of villains that are Garon, Iago, Hans, and Anankos, who are universally cited to be some of the worst villains in the entire franchise. Even without Ian's voice acting, I still found myself really engaged in Berkut throughout the story. He actually had depth to him unlike the Fates villains and I was super invested into him.

I couldn't agree more, at least in terms of Berkut, he was better written and motivated than Fates' parade of "Nyeh heh heh I love being evil" villains. I hope that we get better writing in Three Houses. 

 

On an unrelated note, I don't mind the light =/= good narrative, because in previous FEs, when there was an """"""Evil Religion"""""""  Duma Faithful, etc. they were very obviously evil.

[B.Leu]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Fate's I'll somewhat agree with you on that. Awakening hell no. That game tells a good story and I will stand by that opinion. if you want to debate with me on that I will gladly do so.

I disagree with Awakening, I believe it is straightforward bad anime tropes, characters and story from start to finish, along with very bad gameplay, contrary with Fates being more "subtle" in it's badness, and being a pure waste of story potential from start to finish along with myriad of plot hole with a good gameplay. Except Revelation. Fuck Revelation. Conquest, good. Birthright, better Awakening. Revelation, pure insult.
I don't want to debate, because you have a Severa avatar... nah, it's because I'm shit at debating, and because I believe there's nothing to debate, I won't bulge on it, you won't bulge on it... it's a simple matter of opinion.

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

FTFY

Har har. :p

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Have you ever seen Luffy or Naruto walking while some girl were bathing? Maybe once every 400 chapters. Ike is basically a shonen jump stereotype that make Asta from Black Clover looks original by comparisson, he only miss the edgy rival(unless the BK count). "Game inspired by an anime genre" does not have "clichè of another anime genre" therefore is not anime.

Ike is not an obnoxious kid who at the end of the day had the author completly break the messages of it's works and it's plot just because. And he doesn't want to be the Hokage or find the One Piece or whatever bad shonen dream. I don't understand the comparison much. And... I did not finished my One Piece homework so I can't talk much about it.
My point was, Ike feel like a genuinely good written characters, with a personality, with some subtle developments here and here, that is not bad anime, in other words, an actual character. That you don't have to cut bad/good writing his interactions to believe that indeed, he is a character. Which no characters from Awakening and Fates can't claim.
What I quoted was an example of what you can find in Fates and Awakening, and bad anime.

Also, we don't talk about Black Clover.

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Characters from fateswekening are only a one dimensional trope if you read their join conversation and stop there. Chacter for any pre-3ds, non-PoR games often does not even have a discernable personality if you stop at their first conversation. Hell, some of them does not even get lines outside of supports. And if you judge fateswekening characters on their worst supports when they just throw around theur gimmicks, then you should also judge pre-3ds charcters on their bad supports when they are the yes-man to the other chacter(and there are many of them). This argument seem alway a double standars were some charcters are judged on their best moments and other on their worsts.

That's actually, partially true. To an extent. Indeed, you can't just judge a character only from their first line of dialogues, problem is, I'm not judging Fateswakening (good name btw) on their worst supports, I'm judging them on most the writing period, thank you very much, and I'm sorry, but I can't call most of them good.

And okay, one can make the case that characters from Fateswakening aren't all like that, but that's hardly a good thing, one character is a complete joke, until you read somewhere that the reason he or she is like that is because of that one moment in their life that sometime doesn't really justify crap (a lot of them). Or Xander being a model guy in support, but being an hypocritical delusional guy on story. Fates is very inequal and bad and weird and all.

To be fair, PoR had one of those bad one quirk character, Ilyana. Brrr.

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

The jugdral saga is heavily inspired by gundam, LoGH and Berserk, wich guess what, are among the most popular anime of that age. And if you don't see how fe7 is anime, then you were not accustomed to fantasy animes of the late 90s, early 2000s, because the simalirities are obvious. The concept of anime itself changed a lot over time, and fire emblem was consistently inspired by CONTEMPORANY animes. Right now the big thing in anime are trashy ln adaptations about an overpowered MC getting an harem, so guess what fire emblem is about now?

Okay that, I can see that, and I'm not gonna lie, what I bolded might be true.

But it doesn't change the fact that there is stark contrast between Fateswakening and the others games. They were generaly of good quality, and if we compare them to Fates, the quality was consistent.

[Ottservia]

15 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

I don't want to debate, because you have a Severa avatar... nah, it's because I'm shit at debating, and because I believe there's nothing to debate, I won't bulge on it, you won't bulge on it... it's a simple matter of opinion.

it is a matter of opinion until you start making objective claims that CAN be proven wrong or right. Like saying awakening's story is objectively poorly written to which I disagree. You can say you don't like awakening's story cause THAT is a matter of personal opinion but to say it is poorly written is an objective and argumentative statement that once again can be proven wrong or right by way of objective narrative analysis. Now it is impossible to be 100% objective in regards to narrative analysis I will admit but there are things that can be broken down, analysed, and proven. I mean if you don't want to debate that's fine. I am perfectly content with agreeing to disagree just if you're going to make objective statements like that please be able to back up what you say. Also your arguments are moot because you literally just said you were not good at debating. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ottservia

[Dinar87]

18 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

it is a matter of opinion until you start making objective claims that CAN be proven wrong or right. Like saying awakening's story is objectively poorly written to which I disagree. You can say you don't like awakening's story cause THAT is a matter of personal opinion but to say it is poorly written is an objective and argumentative statement that once again can be proven wrong or right by way of objective narrative analysis. Now it is impossible to be 100% objective in regards to narrative analysis I will admit but there are things that can be broken down, analysed, and proven. I mean if you don't want debate that's fine. I am perfectly content with agreeing to disagree just if you're going to make objective statements please be able to back up what you say. Also your arguments are moot because you literally just said you were not good at debating. 

I disagree with your point that a story can be "objectively" poorly written or written well, as I strongly believe it is due to the subjective feelings and tastes of the user that determine whether they'll enjoy or hate something in general. I don't mean stating facts about a story because in that sense, you can be objective...I mean whether something being "anime tropes" is good/bad.

The other thing I wanted to mention is the whole idea of "judge a game based on what it's trying to be, not what you want it to be" and I agree with this way of thinking since that's the only "objective" way to judge a game, though even then it can still be pretty subjective at times. However, I subjectively enjoyed path of radiance and echoes stories and characters and the opposite was true for me with fates, to the point where I can't enjoy it anymore.




The main things that let me enjoy those games I praised more are...

- some characters like Jill develop over the course of the game, going from a glory seeking daein soldier, to questioning her entire morals, to being able to kill her own father because he's standing in their way to stopping Ashnard. 
- characters like Tobin and Gray in echoes, show up a lot in main story dialog scenes which help make them feel relevant throughout the game
- there's a more gritty tone to things in general, which for me I like
- characters like Shinion insulting Ike and leaving after Greil's death, making everything feel more "real" as not everyone respected you right from the getgo.




Of course, this isn't to say every character is shakespear levels of writing, you still have characters like Makalov or Ilyana who are pretty one note, especially in radiant dawn. But overall, I really enjoyed path of radiance's characters, and I really hope three houses takes some of these concepts and uses them again...that'd be awesome!

But right now, I want to believe again that three houses will surprise me, and will have some of the things I mentioned.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Dinar87

[TheGoodHoms]

6 hours ago, Decerd said:

So, basically what you're saying is "Fire Emblem is becoming too anime for my taste"? I'd take that seriously, if Fire Emblem hand't been anime to begin with since day one. 

 

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Y’kn You’re kind of forgetting the fact that fire emblem has always had anime tropes and cliches in its writing ever since the very first installment so your complaint here is completely moot

I'm not saying Fire Emblem never had anime tropes that would be silly it's made in japan for crying out loud, but the games still stood out as their own thing in comparison to other fantasy anime properties. The issue I have with modern Fire Emblem is that it's not doing enough to fight the trends and stand out, appealing to the least common denominator so to speak. I get that it's the safest way to ensure profit especially since the series has gotten such a big following recently, but I still can't help but get a little turned off by these changes regardless since I've already seen them done before so many times.

I know this all sounds hypocritical coming from the guy who advocates for judging games based on the execution of their gameplay first and foremost with art, graphics, music, story and characters as secondary aspects, but even I can't deny that a game's aesthetics is a good chunk of the initial appeal and that sometimes affects the way I buy games. Again I'm willing to give the game a shot if I hear good things about the gameplay changes, but as things stand I don't feel the desire to pick up Three House because I think there are other games out there that appeal to me more, even among other tactical turn based RPGs.

Or maybe I'm just subconsciously trying to convince myself that it's not worth the $60 investment because I'm on a tight budget right now. 

[Dinar87]

3 minutes ago, TheGoodHoms said:

 

I'm not saying Fire Emblem never had anime tropes that would be silly it's made in japan for crying out loud, but the games still stood out as their own thing in comparison to other fantasy anime properties. The issue I have with modern Fire Emblem is that it's not doing enough to fight the trends and stand out, appealing to the least common denominator so to speak. I get that it's the safest way to ensure profit especially since the series has gotten such a big following recently, but I still can't help but get a little turned off by these changes regardless since I've already seen them done before so many times.

I know this all sounds hypocritical coming from the guy who advocates for judging games based on the execution of their gameplay first and foremost with art, graphics, music, story and characters as secondary aspects, but even I can't deny that a game's aesthetics is a good chunk of the initial appeal and that sometimes affects the way I buy games. Again I'm willing to give the game a shot if I hear good things about the gameplay changes, but as things stand I don't feel the desire to pick up Three House because I think there are other games out there that appeal to me more, even among other tactical turn based RPGs.

Or maybe I'm just subconsciously trying to convince myself that it's not worth the $60 investment because I'm on a tight budget right now. 

I think it'd help if you gave specific examples for what anime trends it's using to appeal to the lowest common denominator? I think the graphics and art style of three houses look okay-ish, but I'm really hoping the animations and stuff are smooth and flashy again.

[Owain Dark]

This thread became a general discussion, yaaaay... 

[Ottservia]

31 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

I disagree with your point that a story can be "objectively" poorly written or written well, as I strongly believe it is due to the subjective feelings and tastes of the user that determine whether they'll enjoy or hate something in general. I don't mean stating facts about a story because in that sense, you can be objective...I mean whether something being "anime tropes" is good/bad.

The other thing I wanted to mention is the whole idea of "judge a game based on what it's trying to be, not what you want it to be" and I agree with this way of thinking since that's the only "objective" way to judge a game, though even then it can still be pretty subjective at times. However, I subjectively enjoyed path of radiance and echoes stories and characters and the opposite was true for me with fates, to the point where I can't enjoy it anymore.

like I said it is impossible to be 100% objective in regards to narrative analysis and debate cause at the end of the day we all have different tastes and things we personally value within a story however there are aspects of a story that CAN be broken down, analysed, proven, and debated. For example I think Alm is a bad protagonist because with the way the story tries to convey it's themes his character does not work. Alm is presented as a flat arc protagonist who starts out "perfect" and goes through the story and changes people for the better like say characters like Goku, Saitama, Robin(awakening), or marth. The problem with that is that it doesn't work because with the way it wants to tell it's story it requires a dynamic protagonist that learns and grows over the course of the story. I could go on a long tirade as to why that is but tldr it's because Celica is that kind of protagonist and they're supposed to be two incomplete halves of a greater whole except alm is kind of perfect so it just doesn't work at all. That's what I mean by making objective statements. It's subjective when I say those things make the story unenjoyable to me cause yeah it's perfectly ok for those things to not matter to someone who plays through that story. It matters to me personally cause that's how I like to consume media but it may not matter to anyone else. It's objective poor writing but hey if you don't care about that then that's perfectly fine. Enjoy what you wanna enjoy. I ain't gonna stop you. You don't have to justify why you like or dislike a thing. You can just like or dislike it for whatever reason and I'm not gonna take that away from you. It's when you start saying stuff like "this is poorly written" is when I need to ask "what is poorly written to you?" cause that is a somewhat objective claim that can be broken down, debated, and proven. 

If you find enjoyment in something that is great. That means the work in question resonated with you in some way and that's always a thing to be celebrated and no one should be able to take that away from you. I mean it's perfectly okay to like stupid shit. I like all kinds of stupid shit like fairy tail and fairy tail is trash but I like it anyway as to why I don't know the show makes me feel good. it's poorly written but I still love it.

 

28 minutes ago, TheGoodHoms said:

I'm not saying Fire Emblem never had anime tropes that would be silly it's made in japan for crying out loud, but the games still stood out as their own thing in comparison to other fantasy anime properties. The issue I have with modern Fire Emblem is that it's not doing enough to fight the trends and stand out, appealing to the least common denominator so to speak. I get that it's the safest way to ensure profit especially since the series has gotten such a big following recently, but I still can't help but get a little turned off by these changes regardless since I've already seen them done before so many times.

you see now this is something I can agree with

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ottservia

[May]

Honestly? Never thought Echoes’ story-writing was really good. But the characters? The cast is one of the most engaging characters in the series. For Three Houses though, I kind of want both.

It does seem like TH is following trends, which is not surprising because Fire Emblem has always followed trends. I wish Three Houses has that one aspect of the game itself that makes it stand apart from the other games in the industry aesthetically.

[Maimishou]

1 hour ago, TheGoodHoms said:

The issue I have with modern Fire Emblem is that it's not doing enough to fight the trends and stand out, appealing to the least common denominator so to speak.

Well this is completely uncalled for. Just because you don't like the more recent games doesn't mean that those of us who do have worse taste/are of lesser intelligence.

[B.Leu]

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

it is a matter of opinion until you start making objective claims that CAN be proven wrong or right. Like saying awakening's story is objectively poorly written to which I disagree. You can say you don't like awakening's story cause THAT is a matter of personal opinion but to say it is poorly written is an objective and argumentative statement that once again can be proven wrong or right by way of objective narrative analysis. Now it is impossible to be 100% objective in regards to narrative analysis I will admit but there are things that can be broken down, analysed, and proven. I mean if you don't want to debate that's fine. I am perfectly content with agreeing to disagree just if you're going to make objective statements like that please be able to back up what you say. Also your arguments are moot because you literally just said you were not good at debating. 

Well, sorry for wanting to state my opinion and being honest. :p

I'm assuming, and that's probably a pitfall, ,but here's how a debate between us is probably going to go if it happens, we're going to say things, and then it will be my turn, I'll be blocked to make the debate advance because I'm not good at it. It happened before, and I don't like that.
At the end of the day, I think Awakening have a bad story, and you don't. It's better if we just agree to disagree, we bother less people that way.
 

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

like I said it is impossible to be 100% objective in regards to narrative analysis and debate cause at the end of the day we all have different tastes and things we personally value within a story however there are aspects of a story that CAN be broken down, analysed, proven, and debated. For example I think Alm is a bad protagonist because with the way the story tries to convey it's themes his character does not work. Alm is presented as a flat arc protagonist who starts out "perfect" and goes through the story and changes people for the better like say characters like Goku, Saitama, Robin(awakening), or marth. The problem with that is that it doesn't work because with the way it wants to tell it's story it requires a dynamic protagonist that learns and grows over the course of the story. I could go on a long tirade as to why that is but tldr it's because Celica is that kind of protagonist and they're supposed to be two incomplete halves of a greater whole except alm is kind of perfect so it just doesn't work at all. That's what I mean by making objective statements. It's subjective when I say those things make the story unenjoyable to me cause yeah it's perfectly ok for those things to not matter to someone who plays through that story. It matters to me personally cause that's how I like to consume media but it may not matter to anyone else. It's objective poor writing but hey if you don't care about that then that's perfectly fine. Enjoy what you wanna enjoy. I ain't gonna stop you. You don't have to justify why you like or dislike a thing. You can just like or dislike it for whatever reason and I'm not gonna take that away from you. It's when you start saying stuff like "this is poorly written" is when I need to ask "what is poorly written to you?" cause that is a somewhat objective claim that can be broken down, debated, and proven. 

Boy, you do say sensible things about SoV. RIP Shadow Dragon Marth, so easily forgotten, and so much better than those noob.

In spite of that, though, I prefer SoV story wise to Fateswakening.

But between Chrom, Lucina, Robin, Corrin, Alm and Celica, I'll pick Alm and Celica any day, why ? Because they are not one note cliche and have more to their personality, they are more sublte and tonned down, like in 'the good ol' days' of FE7 and the like.
The fact that I'm saying that about characters that are strangled by the red string or fate is both ironic, and give an even bigger punch to the others.

And I say that after Thane destroyed the pedestal that I had for FE7's plot, because the writing style is still something that I look at fondly.

2 hours ago, Maimishou said:

Well this is completely uncalled for. Just because you don't like the more recent games doesn't mean that those of us who do have worse taste/are of lesser intelligence.

You can like it, it's perfectly fine, saying it is good is probably another story, I dare you to say that Awakening or Fates have good, smart, intelligent stories.
... I agree that it doesn't mean you are stupid. And I don't think he meant that.

[Ottservia]

28 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Well, sorry for wanting to state my opinion and being honest. :p

I'm assuming, and that's probably a pitfall, ,but here's how a debate between us is probably going to go if it happens, we're going to say things, and then it will be my turn, I'll be blocked to make the debate advance because I'm not good at it. It happened before, and I don't like that.
At the end of the day, I think Awakening have a bad story, and you don't. It's better if we just agree to disagree, we bother less people that way.

I really am curious what makes a well written story to you because you keep saying awakening has a bad story. I would like for you to explain your side of the argument please cause I'm not seeing it at all. Again I will agree to disagree I'd just like to know your side of the story because you and I seem to have VERY different ideas on what makes a good character/story cause I really don't see how you can call a character like chrom one -dimensional cause he's not (cliche maybe but one-dimensional definitely not if anything Alm is the one-dimensional one not that there's anything wrong with that inherently just saying) and I can prove that. I apologize if I came off as a little aggressive but still. I'd like to know your side of the argument if at all possible who knows maybe you'll give me a new perspective on things.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Ottservia