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In all honestly, FE13 characters (Player characters to be clear) are a lot more complex then people give them credit for '/  

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1 minute ago, Rose482 said:

In all honestly, FE13 characters (Player characters to be clear) are a lot more complex then people give them credit for '/  

Yeah I agree with this which is why I wanna know what quantifies as good writing for some of these people. I mean don't mean to sound rude but I'm just really curious

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30 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

But between Chrom, Lucina, Robin, Corrin, Alm and Celica, I'll pick Alm and Celica any day, why ? Because they are not one note cliche and have more to their personality, they are more sublte and tonned down, like in 'the good ol' days' of FE7 and the like.
The fact that I'm saying that about characters that are strangled by the red string or fate is both ironic, and give an even bigger punch to the others.

Chrom is one of the most dynamic lords in the series and i hate how underrated he is just because the endgame is more about Robin. How many lords were so overwhelmed with grief that they slaughtered an army that was clearly unwilling to fight for example?

There are many misconception about Awakening plot that lead people to think it is worse than it actually ia. For example, many people think of Emmeryn like she is nothing but a good queen, when she is a deconstruction of pacifism. This is such a  overused world, but i am meaning it in the original sense: using realims to show what really happen when you attempt something whitout the safety nets of plotarmor. In reality, pacifims does not always work, because sometimes people are just not willing to listen to you and you have to fight. Emmeryn failed to understand this, and it was her demise. You can still think that she is not a good characters and i think myself that they could have done better with her, but at least we need to understand why she is in the story. 

Chrom depth as a charcter comes from how his experiences shaped him in a ruler that was actually capable of saving the world. Both Emmeryn and Wallhart tried and ultimately fell short, and Chrom is built on their mistakes, overcoming them with the help of Robin and the others. Awakening is nit just about the power of friendship, but also on how it relate to becoming a good ruler. Both Emmeryn and Wallhart are perceived as infallible, quasi-divine figures by their followers, and so no one questioned them when they became either too pacifist or too warmongering. On the other hand, Chrom is very falkuble, but everytime, someone help him getinng back on track, so he learn. His changes are subtle over the course of the story but they are there. For example, is clear that he stopped parroting Emmeryn ideals by the time he fight Wallmart, and devoloped his own, less merciful idea of justice. Hell, the most interesting think i found on SoV was understanding how Wallhart modelled himself on his perception of Alm as a leggendary hero king that freed the continent from the gods clutch and how his conflict with Chrom highlit the difference between the two hero kings of the past. 

Honestly, i could do a Ghastation tier rant on why i think that Chrom is one of the best lords in the series, but this is not the place for such a digression. And i would likely start overthinking(or overthink more than i am already doing.)

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34 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I really am curious what makes a well written story to you because you keep saying awakening has a bad story. I would like for you to explain your side of the argument please cause I'm not seeing it at all. Again I will agree to disagree I'd just like to know your side of the story because you and I seem to have VERY different ideas on what makes a good character/story cause I really don't see how you can call a character like chrom one -dimensional cause he's not (cliche maybe but one-dimensional definitely not if anything Alm is the one-dimensional one not that there's anything wrong with that inherently just saying) and I can prove that. I apologize if I came off as a little aggressive but still. I'd like to know your side of the argument if at all possible who knows maybe you'll give me a new perspective on things.

Sigh, okay, I'll try. But only because you are eloquent and nice. Not a good idea on my part as I was going to sleep, but you want my pov, and I'll feel like an ass if I didn't gave it.
I'll try to keep simple and short, for everyone's soul.

You say that Chrom isn't one dimentional, but I disagree, he is a bland cliche nice hero, he never doubt himself except at two point of the game, the first when talking about his father, but it's badly done, as they say, show don't tell, we literally don't know jack about his father beside what he say, and about Emmery's death (Oh dear, her death was so stupid, but it's been done to death by people that are way better than me), but all of that before get quickly forgotten under the carpet.
Remind me of Walmart (shh), like, that dude is an ass, a stupid evil ass, but he make genuine good point, you don't create a united world by commiting suicide or spooting nosense about peace. Celica got that yes, you need to fight. But he is portrayed as wrong in everypoint.
Also, no, Emmeryn isn't a deconstruction, she is idealized by everyone and their mother as someone who did no wrong and that her 'sacrifice' make her noble and shit, which is ridiculous as many people pointed out.

Most main characters, and even Alm, Celica and Corrin do, and it shows, truly in the story. They doubt, question themselves, and heck they knows things, real things and so does the player, about their parents who actually appears. Eliwood's dad is cool. Chrom isn't like that, at all.

About plotholes, let's just talk about the biggest one, and the one that matters, Grima, the guy need the Fire Emblem, but magically appears without it completed just because, I'm just naming the one that is the largest.

The bad guys ? Most of them are cartoon bad guys who are just ridiculous. Even the major antagonists. I don't know where to start, the gigling ? The exposition ? Excellus is hilarously bad.

Of course, I not all characters are bad, especially when you read their support, like said Cordelia (The miss perfect, person who love the hero but doesn't get him for one reason or another), or Olivia, but I feel the same as it was the same as SMTIVA, I wonder if they really wanted to do that, and if it wasn't just accidental, because damn, how can a game that produce so much fail in writing, can produce so much win ? It's uncanny.

Too tired, hope I made a good job, probably not, maybe someone will do a better job. Or not. :/

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I give up. To explain myself better i need to spend hours rewatching half of the story of the game so i can bring in the quotes and the screenshot that support my thesis. I have not the time and energy to do that(also because it's 3 AM in my country lol). 

Eventually, i will be motivated enought to do a thread about this. But i doubt it would be anytime soon.

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1 hour ago, B.Leu said:

You can like it, it's perfectly fine, saying it is good is probably another story, I dare you to say that Awakening or Fates have good, smart, intelligent stories.

I can't really judge Awakening because I haven't played it, same with Conquest and Revelation but Birthright? It may not be anything special but I would definitely say it's a good story that's well written for hat it is. It could be better but that doesn't automatically make what it is bad.

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FE 13 characters really don't deserve to be called one note. Honestly I think characters are one thing awakening does quite well, awakening characters each have a lot more supports than any pre-3ds characters, there are a lot of meaningless supports and some stupid ones because of forced S but on average the awakening characters are at least as fleshed out as the gba characters. If anything the games that should get flack for bad characterisation are both of Marths games, RD and Echoes for there lack of character building and fates for its terrible character writing. 

As for awakenings story its not necessarily a bad story, its not exactly amazing either and definitely could have been thought about a bit more but its serviceable,  honestly I would consider it on par with echoes story. Fates is in its own league of bad. But even at its best none of the fire emblem games I have played (everything but Jugdral) really have a great story, the other ones I didn't mention are pretty good and better than the ones I did, but fire emblem is definitely not a series I would go to for a compelling story. 

Edited by Mackc2

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6 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

FE 13 characters really don't deserve to be called one note. Honestly I think characters are one thing awakening does quite well, awakening characters each have a lot more supports than any pre-3ds characters, there are a lot of meaningless supports and some stupid ones because of forced S but on average the awakening characters are at least as fleshed out as the gba characters. If anything the games that should get flack for bad characterisation are both of Marths games, RD and Echoes for there lack of character building and fates for its terrible character writing. 

As for awakenings story its not necessarily a bad story, its not exactly amazing either and definitely could have been thought about a bit more but its serviceable,  honestly I would consider it on par with echoes story. 

Echoes had plenty of character building. Even characters like Silque and Genny who got a little screwed in the support department still get plenty of village conversations that flesh out their story. I felt like I learned a whole lot more about Echoes characters than I ever learned about Awakening's characters. So no, Awakening characters deserve every bit of criticism they get for being one-note.

And Awakening's story is extremely underdeveloped. The entire Valm arc feels like forced filler. Taking that out and making Ylisse the sole focus of the story might have improved things.

Edited by Sentinel07

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1 hour ago, B.Leu said:
4 hours ago, Maimishou said:

Well this is completely uncalled for. Just because you don't like the more recent games doesn't mean that those of us who do have worse taste/are of lesser intelligence.

You can like it, it's perfectly fine, saying it is good is probably another story, I dare you to say that Awakening or Fates have good, smart, intelligent stories.
... I agree that it doesn't mean you are stupid. And I don't think he meant that.

I was referring to a broad demographic when I said least common denominator, not the consumer's intelligence. If they were appealing to a certain intelligence they'd be selling some crappy plastic novelty you see in an infomercial like the potty putter.

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1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Chrom is one of the most dynamic lords in the series and i hate how underrated he is just because the endgame is more about Robin. How many lords were so overwhelmed with grief that they slaughtered an army that was clearly unwilling to fight for example?

There are many misconception about Awakening plot that lead people to think it is worse than it actually ia. For example, many people think of Emmeryn like she is nothing but a good queen, when she is a deconstruction of pacifism. This is such a  overused world, but i am meaning it in the original sense: using realims to show what really happen when you attempt something whitout the safety nets of plotarmor. In reality, pacifims does not always work, because sometimes people are just not willing to listen to you and you have to fight. Emmeryn failed to understand this, and it was her demise. You can still think that she is not a good characters and i think myself that they could have done better with her, but at least we need to understand why she is in the story. 

Chrom depth as a charcter comes from how his experiences shaped him in a ruler that was actually capable of saving the world. Both Emmeryn and Wallhart tried and ultimately fell short, and Chrom is built on their mistakes, overcoming them with the help of Robin and the others. Awakening is nit just about the power of friendship, but also on how it relate to becoming a good ruler. Both Emmeryn and Wallhart are perceived as infallible, quasi-divine figures by their followers, and so no one questioned them when they became either too pacifist or too warmongering. On the other hand, Chrom is very falkuble, but everytime, someone help him getinng back on track, so he learn. His changes are subtle over the course of the story but they are there. For example, is clear that he stopped parroting Emmeryn ideals by the time he fight Wallmart, and devoloped his own, less merciful idea of justice. Hell, the most interesting think i found on SoV was understanding how Wallhart modelled himself on his perception of Alm as a leggendary hero king that freed the continent from the gods clutch and how his conflict with Chrom highlit the difference between the two hero kings of the past. 

Honestly, i could do a Ghastation tier rant on why i think that Chrom is one of the best lords in the series, but this is not the place for such a digression. And i would likely start overthinking(or overthink more than i am already doing.)

I might have liked Chrom more if not for the fact that he turned into a hypocrite that valued one friend over future generations by the end of the game. The way Awakening ended forever soured my opinion of him. I liked him up to that point, but his complete and total selfishness at putting Robin's life over the future just urked me to no end, and just further enforced Intelligent System's recent trend of player pandering.

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10 minutes ago, Sentinel07 said:

I might have liked Chrom more if not for the fact that he turned into a hypocrite that valued one friend over future generations by the end of the game. The way Awakening ended forever soured my opinion of him. I liked him up to that point, but his complete and total selfishness at putting Robin's life over the future just urked me to no end, and just further enforced Intelligent System's recent trend of player pandering.

The thing is Chrom was always a character that valued his friendship highly, he isn't the type of character who would ever willingly let those he is close to suffer. It would be completely out of character for him to just accept sacrificing Robin, he is exactly the type of character who would stubbornly fight to find another way  

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Friendly reminder that the people who think the recent Fire Emblem games are trash and “generic anime games”(that’s real hilarious) are the vocal minority. Just saying.

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14 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

The thing is Chrom was always a character that valued his friendship highly, he isn't the type of character who would ever willingly let those he is close to suffer. It would be completely out of character for him to just accept sacrificing Robin, he is exactly the type of character who would stubbornly fight to find another way  

This is particular interesting when you compared Chrom's line with Aversa just two chapters earlier.

 

Quote

Chrom: Robin sees beyond himself/herself, to the larger reality. One person's life means nothing in the shadow of millions.

Aversa: A sweet sentiment, and easily spoken when you bear no love for the one...

Quote

Chrom: Robin would cease to be?! No. We'll find another way.

Robin: Chrom, wait. You're not thinking clearly. Think about what your sister would have wanted.

Chrom: Emmeryn would never have asked you to do this!

Robin: What is one life, when weighed against millions?

Honestly, the "hypocrite" as Sentinel07 put it actually makes Chorm a feel like real person with struggle. I can't imaging him willingly order Robin, his best friend and maybe wife to die, regardless how great the cause, without some kind internal conflict. That would sound more like Grima's personality ironically.

Edited by Timlugia

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Wow, didn't know Chrom had something to do with information about the leak. /s

Edited by Roland

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5 hours ago, Maimishou said:

Well this is completely uncalled for. Just because you don't like the more recent games doesn't mean that those of us who do have worse taste/are of lesser intelligence.

I don't think that's what they were getting at though? It's just the modern Fire Emblem doesn't have a flare to stand out, and Three Houses falls victim to that immensely. When you compare to the gameplay aesthetics from GBA era to Three Houses, you can kind of get the gist of it. The fact that TH resembles the parallels of Persona 5 artwork (the portraits and official artwork) and not doing it quite well shows that TH isn't even trying to stand out among other games in the industry aesthetic wise. 

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8 minutes ago, Aera said:

I don't think that's what they were getting at though? It's just the modern Fire Emblem doesn't have a flare to stand out, and Three Houses falls victim to that immensely. When you compare to the gameplay aesthetics from GBA era to Three Houses, you can kind of get the gist of it. The fact that TH resembles the parallels of Persona 5 artwork (the portraits and official artwork) and not doing it quite well shows that TH isn't even trying to stand out among other games in the industry aesthetic wise. 

Love the amount of judgement here. "Three Houses looks like Persona but worse. This game is DOA, 7.8 2MuchWeeb4Me". How about you actually play the game first before jumping the gun a bit, eh? Please stop being so pessimistic. It is not a good look for anyone.

Edited by Decerd

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Just now, Decerd said:

Love the amount of judgement here. "Three Houses looks like Persona but worse. This game is DOA, 7.8 2MuchWeeb4Me". How about you actually play the game first jumping the gun a bit, eh?

gurl... im still buying the game anyways. i only compare that part of the art, well, because the parallels are the same from what's shown

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3 minutes ago, Aera said:

gurl... im still buying the game anyways. i only compare that part of the art, well, because the parallels are the same from what's shown

1. Wrong gender.

2. Even if it looks like Persona, that doesn't mean this game is going to suck. 

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2 minutes ago, Decerd said:

1. Wrong gender.

2. Even if it looks like Persona, that doesn't mean this game is going to suck. 

boi... i never said the game was going to suck... where'd you get that

"The fact that TH resembles the parallels of Persona 5 artwork (the portraits and official artwork) and not doing it quite well shows that TH isn't even trying to stand out among other games in the industry aesthetic wise. "

Edited by Aera

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48 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Honestly, the "hypocrite" as Sentinel07 put it actually makes Chorm a feel like real person with struggle. I can't imaging him willingly order Robin, his best friend and maybe wife to die, regardless how great the cause, without some kind internal conflict. That would sound more like Grima's personality ironically.

Not to mention doing so callously might make Robin decide to kill Chrom instead. If Robin has no appreciation for friendship, they'd be more inclined to become Grima.

Still, Chrom needed to display more tact at that scene. Or at least add another where they pull back and say "Sorry I was emotional earlier. I'll miss you if you choose to die, but I'll respect your decision. I'm leaving it you and only you to decide.". As is, it makes him terribly weak for me.

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Since we’re apparently taking about Awakening now, I feel like I should mention there was one support between Ricken and Henry where (iirc) Henry reveals that some of the Plegian generals you’ve killed were actually pretty nice/respected people where they came from. Ricken then replies that he never thought of it that way and just saw them as “the enemy”.

Thought that was a pretty interesting exchange.

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16 minutes ago, TheDreamReturns said:

Since we’re apparently taking about Awakening now, I feel like I should mention there was one support between Ricken and Henry where (iirc) Henry reveals that some of the Plegian generals you’ve killed were actually pretty nice/respected people where they came from. Ricken then replies that he never thought of it that way and just saw them as “the enemy”.

Thought that was a pretty interesting exchange.

It's been done. Though the RickenxHenry version is too jokey for my taste. Wish this conversation happened between two characters who aren't insane. If you ask me this conversation should honestly be in every Fire Emblem game, but it will be hard to top the MistxRolf take. I would try two characters who aren't at the same level of experience. Makes sense for a young soldier to ask a senior officer if this work ever gets easier, but it never does.

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20 hours ago, Sentinel07 said:

I might have liked Chrom more if not for the fact that he turned into a hypocrite that valued one friend over future generations by the end of the game. The way Awakening ended forever soured my opinion of him. I liked him up to that point, but his complete and total selfishness at putting Robin's life over the future just urked me to no end, and just further enforced Intelligent System's recent trend of player pandering.

Chrom doesn't have it in him to kill anyone close to him for the greater good. He's not a pragmatist. He's an idealist, who gets by because he  befriended a pragmatist who also happened to be possibly the most talented man on the planet. He and Robin are basically Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang. Liu Bei get's to be the ideal hero because he's being carried to the victory line by Zhuge Liang. Of course, that ended badly in Three Kingdoms, but Robin manages to pull it off.

Now you can say that's Avatar pandering, but Robin is clearly meant to be more cynical than Chrom. Male Robin and Chrom's supports showcase this best, but Robin in general tends to push for the most pragmatic options throughout the story.

Edited by Onestep

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20 hours ago, Aera said:

When you compare to the gameplay aesthetics from GBA era to Three Houses, you can kind of get the gist of it.

No, i don't. GBA era aesthetics aren'T anything special either.

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