Nintendo confirmed Information about the church *SPOILERS*

[SMinairo]

20 hours ago, Sentinel07 said:

Echoes had plenty of character building. Even characters like Silque and Genny who got a little screwed in the support department still get plenty of village conversations that flesh out their story. I felt like I learned a whole lot more about Echoes characters than I ever learned about Awakening's characters. So no, Awakening characters deserve every bit of criticism they get for being one-note.

It's completely fine to like the characters from Echoes more than the one from Awakening, I myself do for the most part, but saying that we learn more about them than about the ones from Awakening it's lying. In the worst cases we get to know them just as much, plus normal conversations between friends/comrades that tells us about their personality.

What characters from Awakening do we know about less than we do about Silque or Kamui? Maybe Priam, but I'd say that we still know more about him than Kamui.

[TheDreamReturns]

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

It's been done. Though the RickenxHenry version is too jokey for my taste. Wish this conversation happened between two characters who aren't insane. If you ask me this conversation should honestly be in every Fire Emblem game, but it will be hard to top the MistxRolf take. I would try two characters who aren't at the same level of experience. Makes sense for a young soldier to ask a senior officer if this work ever gets easier, but it never does.

Holy Cow, just compared the two and the Mist/Rolf version is SO much better. 

I guess the vets were right about the writing downgrade huh?

[Emperor Hardin]

2 hours ago, TheDreamReturns said:

Since we’re apparently taking about Awakening now, I feel like I should mention there was one support between Ricken and Henry where (iirc) Henry reveals that some of the Plegian generals you’ve killed were actually pretty nice/respected people where they came from. Ricken then replies that he never thought of it that way and just saw them as “the enemy”.

Thought that was a pretty interesting exchange.

While a well written support showing the Plegian army are people too, the Grimleal never receive any kind of humanization in anywhere in the game. 

[ThreeHeroesElitist]

54 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

While a well written support showing the Plegian army are people too, the Grimleal never receive any kind of humanization in anywhere in the game. 

Loptyrian Cult also was not humanized 

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, ThreeHeroesElitist said:

Loptyrian Cult also was not humanized 

Not true, there's even a conversation about it in chapter 7.

[Timlugia]

56 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

While a well written support showing the Plegian army are people too, the Grimleal never receive any kind of humanization in anywhere in the game. 

Also in Drama CD Plegians choose to defend Robin after seeing her paying tributes to fallen Plegians from the previous war.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, Timlugia said:

Also in Drama CD Plegians choose to defend Robin after seeing her paying tributes to fallen Plegians from the previous war.

Drama cd is a separate continuity and again those aren't Grimleal.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

11 minutes ago, Sbuscoz said:

What characters from Awakening do we know about less than we do about Silque or Kamui? Maybe Priam, but I'd say that we still know more about him than Kamui.

From Kamui's three base conversations:

• Comes from a nomadic family who raised sheep before a rival tribe edged them out of the market and into the city. 
• He's very focused on coin, which makes sense given what the lack of money did to his family.
• Cities are stifling, so he became a sellsword to stay on the move.
• Plans to settle down once the fighting is over and claims his wanderlust has been sated by his final base conversation
  • His ending confirms exactly this in his building a mercenary kingdom in Grieth's territory. However, if Jesse is still alive the wanderlust claims him once again in another "never seen again" ending. Can't say I know why Jesse being alive results in this small change, but the original also had Jesse affect his ending so it's a reference at least. They could have used a support since they're such similar characters in terms of backstory and goals.
• His support with Leon says nothing about Kamui other than he kind of gets that sense of loyalty toward another person.

Silque is more interesting:

• Raised as a cleric just like her mother in the island named Novis. She reveals that while the drought in Zofia is new, the pirate problem is not and her joke about all the fish they ate is pretty funny with its pained delivery.
  • plot twist: her mother was a cleric of the Duma Faithful who didn't want the same life for her daughter. Women that give their souls to Duma become witches, so we can imagine why Silque doesn't like to think about her mother's fate. And it's also obvious why she'd keep her Rigel heritage a secret from the Deliverance.
• Nomah sent her to deliver the Mila's Turnwheel to Alm, so she set out to find Mycen in Ram. She might know the truth of Alm's lineage with her line given that she asked to see his hand the moment she met him, but she doesn't need to in order to complete her quest. I just feel like her delivery is important enough that Nomah would entrust in her this much information
• She is probably acquainted with Celica, though that may be me reading too much into the "you're the one she-" line when Alm first mentions her.
• On her way to Ram she is saved by Jesse from Grieth's thugs. Turns out Est isn't the only pretty girl he was trying to play hero for, though that time he got caught by Grieth's men.
• Her reaching out to Faye for girl talk makes sense when you observe everybody at the priory is female outside Boey and Nomah. She clearly hasn't had to hang around so much men in her life as in the Deliverance, while Faye is the opposite in having no female friends.

These aren't bad details. Both of these characters have probably less than half the dialogue than Awakening characters get, but you can still define them beyond a single character trope. A lot of Echoes' writing is under the surface, and the player must piece the details together. It can feel very rewarding when you do, hence why people think Sonya is so interesting, for instance. By the time you learn explicitly her relation to Jedah, Marle, and Hestia, you've heard plenty about her father and sisters.

1 hour ago, TheDreamReturns said:

I guess the vets were right about the writing downgrade huh?

I think character writing and world building are what need the most work compared to previous games, but even then there are some strong points from 3DS era. And we've definitely seen improvements from DS era depending on how much blame you want to levy in that direction. I thought Echoes did pretty well with its "Do more with less" approach. Though I'd prefer if we could have more than 1-3 supports. Awakening's Act 1 is also very carefully written, in my opinion. The intrigue with "Marth", the way Chrom talks about his family, the somber chapter after Emmeryn's death. Sure the character introductions are drawn out (did we need TEN playable characters by Chapter 2? And Panne is a very wtf inclusion that could have waited until later in the game), and the motivations behind Emmeryn's sacrifice are questionable at best, but the dialogue and character interactions are very good at matching the tone of each scene. The whole game isn't like that, especially when babies enter the picture, but a strong start leaves a positive impression throughout the experience.

[May]

2 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

No, i don't. GBA era aesthetics aren'T anything special either.

I think I am a little ambivalent with Three Houses design direction because it’s not exploring interesting palettes or combat styles like GBA. TH isn’t really unifying with its color choices for the characters (To me, it just seemed like they chose one color to define  a characteristic and used black/grey/skin tone color for the rest). If there’s anything interesting, the violet overlay of the portraits defines the palette of the game, and I just wish they explored that a little more since it is the main color for the game overall. GBA era colors were super saturated, and it blended very well with the environment since the environment was saturated as well. 

As for combat animations, TH isn’t really special or anything besides the magic circles... I also wished the critical sounded more dynamic. Critical animations aren’t as iconic as the ones in GBA, but the animated cut-in is a cool addition. GBA era had anticipation with its critical hits and the animation was over the top. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Aera

[SMinairo]

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

From Kamui's three base conversations:

• Comes from a nomadic family who raised sheep before a rival tribe edged them out of the market and into the city. 
• He's very focused on coin, which makes sense given what the lack of money did to his family.
• Cities are stifling, so he became a sellsword to stay on the move.
• Plans to settle down once the fighting is over and claims his wanderlust has been sated by his final base conversation
  • His ending confirms exactly this in his building a mercenary kingdom in Grieth's territory. However, if Jesse is still alive the wanderlust claims him once again in another "never seen again" ending. Can't say I know why Jesse being alive results in this small change, but the original also had Jesse affect his ending so it's a reference at least. They could have used a support since they're such similar characters in terms of backstory and goals.
• His support with Leon says nothing about Kamui other than he kind of gets that sense of loyalty toward another person.

Silque is more interesting:

• Raised as a cleric just like her mother in the island named Novis. She reveals that while the drought in Zofia is new, the pirate problem is not and her joke about all the fish they ate is pretty funny with its pained delivery.
  • plot twist: her mother was a cleric of the Duma Faithful who didn't want the same life for her daughter. Women that give their souls to Duma become witches, so we can imagine why Silque doesn't like to think about her mother's fate. And it's also obvious why she'd keep her Rigel heritage a secret from the Deliverance.
• Nomah sent her to deliver the Mila's Turnwheel to Alm, so she set out to find Mycen in Ram. She might know the truth of Alm's lineage with her line given that she asked to see his hand the moment she met him, but she doesn't need to in order to complete her quest. I just feel like her delivery is important enough that Nomah would entrust in her this much information
• She is probably acquainted with Celica, though that may be me reading too much into the "you're the one she-" line when Alm first mentions her.
• On her way to Ram she is saved by Jesse from Grieth's thugs. Turns out Est isn't the only pretty girl he was trying to play hero for, though that time he got caught by Grieth's men.
• Her reaching out to Faye for girl talk makes sense when you observe everybody at the priory is female outside Boey and Nomah. She clearly hasn't had to hang around so much men in her life as in the Deliverance, while Faye is the opposite in having no female friends.

These aren't bad details. Both of these characters have probably less than half the dialogue than Awakening characters get, but you can still define them beyond a single character trope. A lot of Echoes' writing is under the surface, and the player must piece the details together. It can feel very rewarding when you do, hence why people think Sonya is so interesting, for instance. By the time you learn explicitly her relation to Jedah, Marle, and Hestia, you've heard plenty about her father and sisters.

 

Oh, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying the characters are bad or worse than the ones in Awakening, as I said I like most of the Echoes ones better. What I was saying is that saying that we learn more about the characters from SoV, as in sheer volume, is not true.

In Awakening there is a huge number of supports, these leaves us with some being better than others, sure, but it also give us, generally, not only more backstory, but also more "everyday" conversations, the kind of conversation that doesn't tell you about what they have done, but how they are, two characters you like just hanging out. And again, I think Echoes does this fantastically, like Celica/Mae, sometimes blending booth types and coupled with it being voiced it's pretty satisfaying. But it's also pretty scarce.

What we know about Kamui can be summarized as "a man whith huge wanderlust that left his family once they were forced to settle down", which is great, but also incredibly short. We basically don't know how he socializes or thinks about anything that it's not travelling or money. Though Kamui is probably one of the worst examples alongside Deen, who's backstory wasn't even in the game.

If you bother to read Awakening supports (though you problably have already), you'll see that most of the characters aren't one-note either. Taking a polarizing example such as Tharja, I'm pretty sure I could write more about her than about Kamui, Deen and Silque together, and that's counting possibilities like Silque knowing about Alm's family which is more of a headcanon.

To me, echoes in general, felt more alive/"organic", and I like it that way, but saying that Awakening, which's writting was certainly more in your face, gives less information or that it's characters have a single trope... it just doesn't seem true to me. I mean you can summarize them in one trait, but you could do the same with echoes and have the same result, an incomplete portrayal of the character.

[TheDreamReturns]

3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Awakening's Act 1 is also very carefully written, in my opinion. The intrigue with "Marth", the way Chrom talks about his family, the somber chapter after Emmeryn's death. Sure the character introductions are drawn out (did we need TEN playable characters by Chapter 2? And Panne is a very wtf inclusion that could have waited until later in the game), and the motivations behind Emmeryn's sacrifice are questionable at best, but the dialogue and character interactions are very good at matching the tone of each scene. The whole game isn't like that, especially when babies enter the picture, but a strong start leaves a positive impression throughout the experience.

I felt this way too tbh. Some parts of Act 1 for me felt really....let's say "off" but there was some real decent execution here and there.

Quote

If you bother to read Awakening supports (though you problably have already), you'll see that most of the characters aren't one-note either. Taking a polarizing example such as Tharja, I'm pretty sure I could write more about her than about Kamui, Deen and Silque together, and that's counting possibilities like Silque knowing about Alm's family which is more of a headcanon.

Combine in your face, repetitive, quirky characterization with a massive amount of supports that most players wont dive into for the sake of character analysis and you have a cast that gains a reputation of being one note, regardless of if they deserve it.

Edited May 26, 2019 by TheDreamReturns

[Re:Born]

Not to try and sound like an ass here, but what do differing opinions of Awakening's writing have to do with the Church leak again exactly?

[eclipse]

On 5/24/2019 at 2:25 PM, Ottservia said:

Yeah I agree with this which is why I wanna know what quantifies as good writing for some of these people. I mean don't mean to sound rude but I'm just really curious

PM me what kind of person Legault is, from his five support conversations and boss lines.  If the word "bisexual" is used as one of his descriptors, you've failed.

This is what the older FE fans were introduced to, so. . .

10 minutes ago, Re:Born said:

Not to try and sound like an ass here, but what do differing opinions of Awakening's writing have to do with the Church leak again exactly?

You're not an ass, you're absolutely right.

So. . .enough bitching about other game's stories.  Or anime.  Because neither of these have anything to do with the slip-up that this topic is about.

[Emperor Hardin]

So I have a very good guess Rhea is not evil(or at the very least tragic) and is probably related to Sothis in some way.

I'll be happily surprised if I'm wrong though.

[TheDreamReturns]

(edited because I changed my mind)

I don't see them making her evil considering how nice they made her look, immediately after seeing her I thought she was going to be the next Emmeryn/Mikoto, that is if it weren't for the whole evil church cliche and the "merciless judgement" thing in her bio. If it weren't for the latter I'd assume she WERE secretly evil, but because it's there for all to see something tells me they're trying to throw a "actually she was being manipulated by the other guy in the same trailer who straight up looks like he's from another planet" curveball.

Wrinklebro just seems like HE'S the cause of all this and is just using Rhea to achieve his goals, I mean she IS the highest ranking archbishop right? What better pawn than one with so much influence?

Edited May 26, 2019 by TheDreamReturns
changed my mind

[eclipse]

I'd love a reversal where the seedy old guy is actually good at heart and helps you to the best of his abilities, and the pretty priestess is the corrupt force within the church.

[Emperor Hardin]

8 hours ago, eclipse said:

I'd love a reversal where the seedy old guy is actually good at heart and helps you to the best of his abilities, and the pretty priestess is the corrupt force within the church.

I'd love the game's plot if they did that, even if it was riddled with other problems, that would always be something I'd point to the game as doing right.

[Rose482]

I never understood why people thought Rhea would be the next Emmeryn/Mikoto tbh, like other than her being an older female figure, there would had been nothing about her that told me she would be just like them. Although I wouldn't mind if Rhea still ended up being a tragic character in her own way.

Also on that topic, I sorta dislike when people compare Emmeryn with Mikoto. Mostly becasue I think one is a much better character than the other '/ 

[Owain Dark]

1 hour ago, Rose482 said:

I never understood why people thought Rhea would be the next Emmeryn/Mikoto tbh, like other than her being an older female figure, there would had been nothing about her that told me she would be just like them. Although I wouldn't mind if Rhea still ended up being a tragic character in her own way.

Also on that topic, I sorta dislike when people compare Emmeryn with Mikoto. Mostly becasue I think one is a much better character than the other '/ 

I wouldn't mind, if Rhea jumps off of the highest Monestery tower lol