Why is Forsyth considered the worst unit in Echoes

[LoneRecon400]

Mycen is actually better than the other Gold Knights in Act 5 barring maybe Mathilda since every enemy either has over 20 Speed or struggles to break double digits. There's very little inbetween, so his 11 Speed is enough to double most enemies, making his extra attack and defense shine more. Plus he can use the Gradivus you get in the temple to double Duma for some nice extra chip damage. 

That alone puts him above Forsyth, who require extra grinding to be on par with to a unit that's already not great and can't do anything at base except maybe chip an Arcanist in 3-2.

Him facing crit rates isn't that much of a issue considering the crit evade rate in this game is Luck/2. So even if you had a unit with 10 more luck than Mcyen, they'd still only have 5 more crit evade. The turnwheel can also be use to prevent any low percent crits if he does end up receiving one.

Getting bad level ups isn't that large of a issue in Echoes considering how promotion gain ensuring that a unit will always be at a certain level as long as they are given enough experience. 

Atlas is also actually quite a big factor in an efficient run since in LTCs they hold off doing Sea Shrine to promote Palla before the desert maps, thus giving him the chance to promote to Archer in timely fashion. 

From there he'll be able to promote to Sniper by Dragon Shrine and be able to engage in trade chains with Leon for the Killer Bow, which makes him quite the important asset for a efficient run. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by LoneRecon400

[Zapp Branniglenn]

5 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Atlas is also actually quite a big factor in an efficient run since in LTCs they hold off doing Sea Shrine to promote Palla before the desert maps, thus giving him the chance to promote to Archer in timely fashion. 

From there he'll be able to promote to Sniper by Dragon Shrine and be able to engage in trade chains with Leon for the Killer Bow, which makes him quite the important asset for a efficient run. 

Quick question since its been over a year since I've played: Doesn't Atlas leave your party if you try to go in any direction that isn't grieth's fortress? Or can you backtrack to Act 2 areas to get him his promotion?

[LoneRecon400]

3 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Quick question since its been over a year since I've played: Doesn't Atlas leave your party if you try to go in any direction that isn't grieth's fortress? Or can you backtrack to Act 2 areas to get him his promotion?

He'll leave if you try to go North to Mila's temple, but he'll stay with you if you decide to go down South to Sea Shrine instead. 

Even if he did leave you, you can just go back and recurit him again so long as you don't complete the desert maps without him recruited.

Edited May 23, 2019 by LoneRecon400

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 minute ago, LoneRecon400 said:

He'll leave if you try to go North to Mila's temple, but he'll stay with you if you decide to go down South to Sea Shrine instead. 

Oh, okay. I was wondering why his inability to promote wasn't a huge deal breaker for people. You can cheat by going south.

[Super Potat]

11 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Mycen is actually better than the other Gold Knights in Act 5 barring maybe Mathilda since every enemy either has over 20 Speed or struggles to break double digits. There's very little inbetween, so his 11 Speed is enough to double most enemies, making his extra attack and defense shine more. Plus he can use the Gradivus you get in the temple to double Duma for some nice extra chip damage.

In the final chapter however he won't be able to 1 shot anything (correct me if I'm mistaken) even with Gravidus and you have people that would be able to (like Mathilda and any of the Falcon Knights with Gravidus) so why wouldn't you send those in instead as they can deal with them on enemy phase (they shouldn't die that easily by that point iirc) rather than Mycen who cannot 1 round, and with Duma he isn't that hard in general and any other unit will be able to do as good as him and since Duma is all you need to kill to beat the map it's better to use one of the bow knights that can reach him easier to damage him then warp Alm in for the kill.

With everything else that seems to be right and never thought about the sending Atlas back down to avoid the enemy spawns but if I'm not mistaken once Atlas leaves after you head North you can simply recruit him again and head North and not have him leave (I remember this happening on my playthrough although I can't say for sure).

The only other thing I'll mention is the "Atlas is also actually quite a big factor in an efficient run since in LTCs" as I'd say that rating units is more based upon efficient runs in general more so than LTCs because LTC tier lists are so flipped in comparison but I'm not sure if unit spawns are in LTCs or not (as going south would trigger lots more enemy squads to spawn from Greith's fort?), if not then it should work in non-LTC efficient runs too.

[LoneRecon400]

It's rather diffcult for any unit to one round Act 5 enemies without effective weaponary or crits. The weakest Arcainst in the act, for example, needs over 30 attack in order to be one rounded. And those are just the mages. Every unit will stuggle to reach those kinds of benchmark without some way to deal extra damage, so he's not at that much of a disadvantage compartively to other units.

Even if that wasn't a factor, Mycen bases are often better than what most Gold Knights provide. An average 10/10 Gold Knight Mathilda only averages 22 Attack, the same as a base Mycen, and will be unlikely to double most of the high speed enemies. 

Map spawns aren't considered in a LTC since they use a patch to disable them. Even with them, however, it'd still be worth it to backtracking considering how much a promoted Palla helps for those terrain impeding maps and to let Atlas gain the levels he needs to be get to Sniper in a timely fashion. 

[Super Potat]

yeah thanks you filled me in on why Mycen could be useful maybe more so than Forsyth. It's still not so much clear cut as Mycen won't really save that many turns at all like Forsyth (they're both not the most amazing units with 1 being trash, and 1 for 1 chapter). Also with the Atlas stuff, nice information so thanks a bunch.