Total War: Three Kingdoms

[Tryhard]

So the game came out today but I won't have a chance to play it until after work myself.

Gameplay has been out for a while showing that people are mostly happy with improvements made outside of battles. Of course, in terms of actual AI the series remains questionable from what I've seen (which isn't really surprising).

I've heard mostly good things (outside of the standard initial technical issues, which is shocking I know) from initial impressions.

Any thoughts?

[Etrurian emperor]

I want this game soooo bad but I'm also very aware my laptop can't run it. Luckily my current laptop needs to be replaced due to its keyboard being completely messed up so I  have a chance to replace the laptop that can't run the game with one that can. 

I'm still juggling whether I want the game badly enough to invest in a laptop that can run the game. I have a very deep distrust in pc gaming so its unlikely I'd use it for anything other than Total War games. And I wonder the steep price 900-ish Euro is really worth that. On the other hand it wold be nice to play total war games without  compromising with settings or even being completely unable to play them. And if I do need to replace my laptop I might as well do it properly. Decisions, decisions. 

To be honest I was kinda down on it being three kingdoms China at first but since then it has won me over. 

[Nébulya]

I bought it thanks to a website where it only costs 40 euros. So far, greatest Total War I've played! Maybe it's because I'm a fan of this era but..Everything is interesting ^^ It's challenging too ; so it's great! 

[Tryhard]

After playing for a while: I believe this is the best Total War game since at least Shogun 2, and I think this game is probably better than it (though I'd need to play a little more to definitively say that - note that I have never really got into the Warhammer TWs despite them being undeniably good games). I'm surprised that the game is actually optimised and running well considering TW games tend to chug along badly especially at launch. It does remind me a lot of Shogun 2 in terms of design, but the focus on characters is a really welcome addition. Considering the game was at peak 170K players on Steam which is the series record, evidently most are happy with the game.

There are some bugs and unbalanced elements, but considering this is the best launch condition of one of CA games at any point, and the issues are mostly restricted to needing tweaks to numbers, then it's a lot better state than prior historical TWs were at release.

Pretty much improvements to the campaign gameplay all around including diplomacy (even if factions still make questionable offers, but I'm not surprised about that) - and slight improvements in terms of battles, but that's probably the part that is the weakest (the battle AI in Total War will forever be complained about, but it is also the hardest development area with a complex game like this).

As a downside, it does face the same problem as Shogun 2 in that the entire game is basically a civil war, and because of that the unit variety is not fantastic, especially when compared to the fantasy Warhammer games that can do whatever they want in terms of unit types.

I hope this game does well with DLC like the Warhammer games has been getting. And some more unique art/characters.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Tryhard

[Etrurian emperor]

7 hours ago, Tryhard said:

As a downside, it does face the same problem as Shogun 2 in that the entire game is basically a civil war, and because of that the unit variety is not fantastic, especially when compared to the fantasy Warhammer games that can do whatever they want in terms of unit types

Part of that is why I initially wanted a China game set during the mongol invasions. having the traditional Chinese Song in the south, the barbarian dynasty of Jin in the north and the cavalry focused Mongols beyond that would have ensured more variety. 

[Tryhard]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Part of that is why I initially wanted a China game set during the mongol invasions. having the traditional Chinese Song in the south, the barbarian dynasty of Jin in the north and the cavalry focused Mongols beyond that would have ensured more variety. 

While there are multiple time periods of Chinese history that are interesting, none of them are as well known as the (brief) Three Kingdoms period. While they may end up with a different start date later down the line, it's hard to base a game around characters when they aren't as well known as 3K warlords.

It wasn't really a concern for me, because Shogun 2 was good in spite of it as well, and it's unfair to compare the game to Warhammer since that's a complete fantasy game. Compared to the most recent historical titles like Attila and the maligned Thrones of Brittania, the game does well enough with units.

The variety comes more in terms of every faction leader having a unique mechanic.

The Yellow Turbans do get an entire unique roster, so there is some potential for DLC like tribes though, including the Nanman.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Tryhard

[Etrurian emperor]

47 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

While there are multiple time periods of Chinese history that are interesting, none of them are as well known as the (brief) Three Kingdoms period

I'd argue Ghenghis is more well known. The average joe on the street might not know the difference between him and Atilla but the name will certainly ring a bell as a nomadic warlord. Meanwhile if I ask someone on the streets about the three kingdoms I'd likely get blank stares.  

[Tryhard]

Ghenghis sure, but who else? I struggle to think of any notable people on the dynasty side, and if you're going to have Ghenghis as the most recognisable character in your game, you may as well make it a Mongol game like Attila was instead of focusing on China.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Tryhard

[Etrurian emperor]

I'm a bit confused on how exactly the game measures the amount of troops the enemies have. As always the amount of troops is displayed by a yellow bar next to the general but it seems a bit messed up. Whenever I besiege cities in Cao Cao's starting area I have a full yellow stack and the enemy about a quarter of it. But whenever the siege starts the game insist i'm outnumbered and the enemy troops suddenly triple in number which ensures they do indeed outnumber me. 

Do settlements automatically double the enemy troops and if so how would you deal with this when you can't afford particularly big armies. You can starve them out but then the enemy initiates an attack and still force you to fight a losing battle with them. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Etrurian emperor

[Tryhard]

The garrison of every city don't show up as armies on the map. Your (and the AIs) settlements have a garrison force that replenishes over time. If an enemy army is outside a city and the garrison is joining in, you very well could be outnumbered very easily (especially if it is a higher level city or has military buildings that give additional units). While you struggle for armies at the start, you can get multiple high-end armies later on (admittedly, there tends to be less in this compared to other TWs since upkeep is high). It's always beneficial for them to sally out though since towers are strong as well.

Garrisons have been a thing for a while but are there to ensure you don't rapidly expand as much because sieging is harder. There's a button you can click when viewing any city or trade resource settlement that shows you the garrison present.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Tryhard

[Etrurian emperor]

I vaguely recall encountering garrison forces in empire and Shogun but I think they were always kinda weak and never affected battles much. This was the first time I really had some setbacks due to garrisons. 

Taking a bit of a slower course seemed to do the trick, as did buying and army for one siege and disbanding them immediately after to save the cash. 

I do think I'm glitched though. I unlocked the administer post and the game recommended me to make use to it. The lock is off the administer slot and if I click it I can put one of my generals there. But when I need to confirm my appointment the conformation button is greyed out for some reason which apparently a lot of people also struggle with. 

[Tryhard]

I was a little wrong about the garrisons for cities, it doesn't look like they increase that much by the looks of things after level 4 (when they get walls), just they might have slightly more quality units. Well, aside from a level 1 town having no garrison.

There's been a few glitches reported, but I haven't actually really seen any except for a few crashes.

I've been having fun with Kong Rong and having 9k income by turn 57

(Personally, I do think Cao Cao is mislabelled for difficulty when starting out. His ability and generals are both very good, but he's in the middle of a warzone basically. Sun Jian, especially if you take the diplomatic approach on the first forced event, and then expand south instead of north, is a lot more relaxed for beginners.)

Edited May 29, 2019 by Tryhard

[Etrurian emperor]

One failed campaign later and I seem to be getting the hang of things. Started over again and conquered a decent chunk of land as Cao Cao. Amusingly the defeated Liu Bei became my vassal after I robbed him of all his lands except one town way west of my borders. The funny part is that he rebuild himself back to a five province warlord and now we're being besties against the duchy of Wu which is kind of a monster with its 21 provinces. And to think I was concerned about little Yuan Shao with his 9 provinces. At least I'm on the verge of becoming a duke myself. 

I wonder. Do vassalized warlords count in the amount of provines someone owns? I know Sun Jian made Yuan Shu his vassal who remained the owner of several provinces to my west. I wonder if those count to Wu's 21 provinces. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Etrurian emperor

[Tryhard]

I don't think vassal territory counts towards victory, no (you can annex them, though). But any resource buildings you upgrade or Administration Office buildings or city level upgrades give you prestige, so you mostly don't need it. I believe the reason for players to have vassals is that a) you don't need to upkeep for armies and they will help you in wars, b) in the latter stages of the games, they're the only ones you can reliably expect to have trade agreements with you, c) as a result of having less territory yourself, corruption will be less of a problem. Look at the income breakdown for your territories and you'll see how severe the corruption penalty can be (for reference, when I was playing as Sun Jian it got to the point where most of my provinces were -50% income due to corruption)

And yeah, Sun Jian/Wu get the easiest starting run, so he usually ends up expanding easily. That may change when DLC is made to include southern factions including the Nanman, but he mostly goes against weak garrisons of the Han Empire all around him.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Tryhard

[Etrurian emperor]

It seems the area below Chan'an, the historical border region between historical Wei and Shu significantly lowers your movement. That's just cute. Historically Shu lasted so long despite being the weakest kingdom by far precisely because this border region was so hard for armies to march through. Its nice they went the extra mile incorporating that. Its kind of a waste though since few players will ever venture there. No one lives there aside from some nobodies so unless you're a die hard Shu-ist trying to have Liu Bei rule over his historical area there is very little reason to go to that place.

[Etrurian emperor]

To the surprise of pretty much everyone the new DLC will focus on the war of the eight princes, a century after the start of the game. In this war we can play out how the Sima clan exterminated itself barely a decade after winning the three kingdom periods. 

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-three-kingdoms-eight-princes-faq/

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Etrurian emperor

[Interdimensional Observer]

I don't have a PC, nor have I ever played anything in this genre, but this sounds fun.😋

A game set during the period which Dynasty Warriors has never shown nor mentioned. The event which breaks the illusion that the Three Kingdoms ever ended in a "happily ever after".

If we take 184 AD and the Yellow Turban Rebellion as the formal beginning of China's decline from glory, then I think we can say it took 397 years before China actually returned to lasting glory. With the establishment of the Sui Dynasty that is. The Three Kingdoms then is just glorified chaos and maybe a hopeful stabilization amid general decline.

So in other words, I'd like seeing the terrible end to China's take on a "Crisis of the Third Century". It's different and refreshing for a video game I guess.

[Etrurian emperor]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

If we take 184 AD and the Yellow Turban Rebellion as the formal beginning of China's decline from glory, then I think we can say it took 397 years before China actually returned to lasting glory. With the establishment of the Sui Dynasty that is.

Actually I wouldn't even count the Sui dynasty as part of China's recovery. The Sui are a lot like the Jin in that the took out their rivals but collapsed completely before the century was even over. I'd say its the Tang dynasty that began China's recovery. 

It does make the Three Kingdoms a bit weird as far as achievements go because....they kinda achieved nothing at all. China was broken when they started and when they ended China was still broken and would remain so for centuries.

And fun fact: The quite nice trailer music is actually based on a poem from Cao Cao's son. Fittingly its about a fight between brothers. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Etrurian emperor

[Etrurian emperor]

And now the third dlc pack is announced. Its about the Yellow Turban Rebellion which personally isn't really the setting I wanted to see. Pretty neat trailer though. 

 

Despite the Yellow Turbans being the stars I'm probably more interested in the empire. It seems to resemble the Western Roman empire in that its all powerful but also crumbling from all sides. Should be fun. The Yellow Turbans should have some uh....interesting characters. 

 

[Etrurian emperor]

In the new DLC Sun Ce and the one we must not pursue are given the spotlight. Sons succeeding(or killing) their fathers seems to be the theme here. The DLC takes place during the pre Guandu era where Cao Cao, Lu Bu and Liu Bei are stuck in a three way war to control central china while Sun Ce and Yuan Shu take the south and the north. Its the DLC I had assumed they would have made first.