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A Semi-Noob’s SoV Hard-mode Tier list *Open to change!*


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Hey, it’s Azure.

I decided that maybe I can make a tier list for this game on Hard mode. Criteria revolves around the level of efficiency that someone like Mekkah would want in other games. Note that no DLC is being taken into account here, and both routes have different metas. Everyone is ranked from best to worst in each tier.

Villagers are ranked by their usefulness in each of their respective class choices separately. For example, Kliff as an archer will be ranked differently from Kliff as a mage.

 If anything else needs explaining, let me know.

Now, for the two tier lists.

Alm Route:

Spoiler

S-tier (Must have, if you choose):
-Gray (Merc)
-Kliff (Merc)
-Tobin (Merc)
A-tier (Very Valuable Units):
-Tobin (Archer)
-Kliff (Cavalier)
-Tobin (Cavalier)
-Faye (Cavalier)
-Clair
-Gray (Archer)
-Mathilda
-Alm
-Faye (Cleric)
-Silque
-Tobin (Mage)
-Kliff (Archer)
B-tier (Good units):
-Gray (Cavalier)
-Zeke
-Python
-Faye (Pegasus Knight)
C-tier (Average, I guess):
-Tatiana
-Mycen
-Luthier
-Faye (Mage)
-Kliff (Mage)
D-tier (Niche or unreliable):
-Delthea
-Tobin (Soldier)
-Lukas
-Gray (Soldier)
-Kliff (Soldier)
E-tier (Useful in a very small portion):
-Clive
-Gray (Mage)
F-tier (Probably useless):
-Forsyth

Celica’s Route:

Spoiler

S-tier:
-Saber
-Deen
-Kamui
A-tier:
-Catria
-Leon
-Palla
-Genny
-Celica
B-tier:
-Mae
-Atlas (Merc)
-Atlas (Archer)
C-tier:
-Sonya
-Boey
-Est
-Jesse
D-tier:
-Conrad
E-tier:
-Atlas (Mage)
-Atlas (Cavalier)
-Valbar
F-tier:
-Nomah
-Atlas (Soldier)

I am not fully aware of things, so I won’t bother explaining why each unit is in what tier just yet. We can all discuss as we go along.

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I'd say some some ground rules need to establish first before listing positions. Like what's the rule when it comes to grinding? Are we going to prevent it? If we do, how should dungeon encounters be treated? Or how about Map Spawns? What about Sidequests that mandate back tracking? Should Sonya cost you for picking her over Deen? Etc. 

You can have good discussion without answering these questions, but there's going to a big disconnect in the discussions. A person who doesn't fight dungeon encounters is probably not going to have a Myrmidon or Sniper for Zofia Gate, for example. 

As for your actual list:

-The Archers should go above the Cavaliers as well as the Cleircs. The Killer Bow is simply too centralizing to ignore during the late game and the utitly clerics provide all game long outweighs the combat Cavaliers provide, even if it is quite good past Act 1.

-There's not that much of a gap between any Cavaliers. Once they promote to Paladin, they all become largely the same unit, so no way is Clive in E tier. Same with the archers.

-Clair should be lower than the Mages. Flight utility isn't that useful on Alm's route and her durability is very lacking, as well as her Strength without the aid of a Ridersbane.

-Kamui > Deen just for the availability. 

-Catria should be swapped with Palla. Palla's base level means that she's 1 level off being able to promote before the desert maps with a Golden Apple and the Level wells from the Sea Shrine. Having a unimpeded by terrain with quite notable durability allows those maps to go much more smoothly. Catria's better speed growth also won't allow her to double fast enemies on average. 

-Archer Atlas should be right below Leon as by doing the above he can get to Sniper in a timely fashion and can trade the Killer Bow with Leon. 

-Sonya should below Conrad. Having decent stats doesn't mean much when you are effectively locked to Excalibur and are locked to 4 movement. 

-Celica should be swapped with Boey. Giving Boey 1 Attack and 2 Speed from priory wells only puts him 1 attack off from one rounding a lot of bandits in act 2, which can net him a lot of experience. Celica can never say the same she retaliates with her sword at 1 range instead of magic.

-Nomah should also be higher than Valbar since he can put in work by using Sagittae in combination with the Speed Ring to help provide large chip damage to enemies. 

Edited by LoneRecon400
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2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'd say some some ground rules need to establish first before listing positions. Like what's the rule when it comes to grinding? Are we going to prevent it? If we do, how should dungeon encounters be treated? Or how about Map Spawns? What about Sidequests that mandate back tracking? Should Sonya cost you for picking her over Deen? Etc. 

You can have good discussion without answering these questions, but there's going to a big disconnect in the discussions. A person who doesn't fight dungeon encounters is probably not going to have a Myrmidon or Sniper for Zofia Gate, for example. 

As for your actual list:

-The Archers should go above the Cavaliers as well as the Cleircs. The Killer Bow is simply too centralizing to ignore during the late game and the utitly clerics provide all game long outweighs the combat Cavaliers provide, even if it is quite good past Act 1.

-There's not that much of a gap between any Cavaliers. Once they promote to Paladin, they all become largely the same unit, so no way is Clive in E tier. Same with the archers.

-Clair should be lower than the Mages. Flight utility isn't that useful on Alm's route and her durability is very lacking, as well as her Strength without the aid of a Ridersbane.

-Kamui > Deen just for the availability. 

-Catria should be swapped with Palla. Palla's base level means that she's 1 level off being able to promote before the desert maps with a Golden Apple and the Level wells from the Sea Shrine. Having a unimpeded by terrain with quite notable durability allows those maps to go much more smoothly. Catria's better speed growth also won't allow her to double fast enemies on average. 

-Archer Atlas should be right below Leon as by doing the above he can get to Sniper in a timely fashion and can trade the Killer Bow with Leon. 

-Sonya should below Conrad. Having decent stats doesn't mean much when you are effectively locked to Excalibur and are locked to 4 movement. 

-Celica should be swapped with Boey. Giving Boey 1 Attack and 2 Speed from priory wells only puts him 1 attack off from one rounding a lot of bandits in act 2, which can net him a lot of experience. Celica can never say the same she retaliates with her sword at 1 range instead of magic.

-Nomah should also be higher than Valbar since he can put in work by using Sagittae in combination with the Speed Ring to help provide large chip damage to enemies. 

Yeah, okay, maybe I might not be the best to make a tier list like this. Maybe with some more experience.

Also, I knew that Killer Bows are big in this game, but I never thought they affected things that much.

Might come back to this later.

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The Villager options definitely shouldn't be clumped together in A. Mage Tobin is much more valuable than Archer Tobin. All of the Cav options for the Villagers aren't nearly as good as Mage Tobin, Archer Kliff and Cleric Faye. Gray is kinda trash as anything other than a Merc.

There's no way Clive is in E. He's not amazing but he's hardly trash, and it's just impossible for him to be under Mycen. He's only one level away from Paladin when he joins, and if you get him that level (you should) he will continue to be useful throughout Act 3.

The other Dreads don't even begin to compare to Saber. His availability is better, he'll have a constant EXP lead over Kamui who has to play catch-up and compete with Leon, Palla and Catria, and Deen is honestly just filler with good Mov and not particularly good bases. Based on this and your Villager placements, I'm assuming you're just considering every unit at their full potential, but in a regular no-grind run it's pretty impractical to get everyone to that level.

I'll look at this more in a bit.

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8 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

The Villager options definitely shouldn't be clumped together in A. Mage Tobin is much more valuable than Archer Tobin. All of the Cav options for the Villagers aren't nearly as good as Mage Tobin, Archer Kliff and Cleric Faye. Gray is kinda trash as anything other than a Merc.

There's no way Clive is in E. He's not amazing but he's hardly trash, and it's just impossible for him to be under Mycen. He's only one level away from Paladin when he joins, and if you get him that level (you should) he will continue to be useful throughout Act 3.

The other Dreads don't even begin to compare to Saber. His availability is better, he'll have a constant EXP lead over Kamui who has to play catch-up and compete with Leon, Palla and Catria, and Deen is honestly just filler with good Mov and not particularly good bases. Based on this and your Villager placements, I'm assuming you're just considering every unit at their full potential, but in a regular no-grind run it's pretty impractical to get everyone to that level.

I'll look at this more in a bit.

Thanks. I said I was a semi-noob. I have not played hard mode yet, but I thought that I might know enough that things would be fine.

Obviously, I was right and wrong in areas.

I’d honestly like to see you make one, to educate me and stuff.

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I'm not quite sure how much Killer Bows affect things, but Hunter's Volley is a guaranteed and decently accurate range 1-5 doubling, with a nice Crit chance. It rends the Spd stat junk for a Sniper due to that Brave effect and the HP cost is nothing to be feared since they can play it so safe from so far. Nothing is quite as good in the Bow category, although a Longbow's Encloser (also on the Deliverance DLC Python's Bow) and a Radiant Bow both might have niches. 

All you need for a Killer Bow is 100 Silver and a 1* (15 more Silver) Silver Bow. Although given how late it is until you get a Silver Bow, evolving a Steel Bow is going to double the cost.

 

I'm a bit curious on weapon forging logistics for a no-grind run. Beloved Zofia is totally being skipped because Celica is better with Magic, and Zweihanders make the best swords. Though whether a Rapier is worth making for Alm's route interests me.

 

And just because I like them, not because I'd ever expect a serious tier list to factor them in due to being paid DLC, I'll propose placements for the Cipher characters. I'll assume an early Act 3 recruitment for all of them, say after getting Catria and Palla on Celica's side and no later than getting to the Forest village on Alm's; though you might be able to clear their maps at the very end of Acts 1 and 2.:

  • Alm!Randal I'd put in A Tier, a few spots above Mathilda since he is a few levels higher than her but with appropriately higher bases sans Luck. Growths say a similar story.
  • Celica!Randal would be B Tier. Her only Paladin he'd be and a very good one in itself, but the desert and swamp still get to him.
  • Alm!Emma is just a worst Clair or even Pegasus Faye perhaps, and few Terrors and bad terrain to benefit from.
  • Celica!Emma should be roughly comparable to a insta-promotion Palla, but you can probably only afford to invest heavily in one or the other.
  • Yuzu tier pretty low on either route I think. She is fragile, stuck with 4 Move, and has only two weak spells- Fire and Saggitae. She has awesome bases and growths, and another Recover is a slight help, but she has to be healed after fighting up close and her opportunities on either route to do so are limited. Pitchforks make everyone good so they shouldn't be considered at all.
  • Shade on the other hand would be just below Silque and Cleric!Faye on Alm's route, and just below Genny on Celica's. Besides having a little less availability, it takes Shade until level 10 to get Rescue, nor does she have Genny's Invoke, and Freeze & Silence are a novelties b/c they have so little range. But she has Physic at base, and when maps are so big and Faye or Genny can be busy with other things, having another ranged healer is not at all redundant.
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I'd also move Nomah up a little. His stats aren't great, but Sagitea gives him a good offensive, long range move right out of the bat and he still has healing utility. I'd say that is better then at least most Atlas' and perhaps even Jesse? 

Meanwhile i'd move Mycen down considerably. His stats are kind of meh, but thats usually fine. Echoes doesn't have deployment slots and Mycen's stats are at least good enough to do a alright job here and there. Normally he'd be fine, but Mycen is the only character in the game who is never free. Slots are limited in endgame and Mycen doesn't really do anything to put him above the other cavalries or other units in general.

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All this sudden tier talk makes me wish I had the game in my hands for another playthrough. But my copy is lent out to a friend at the moment. My one and only Hard Mode run was my first playthrough of the game (because somebody in the Ask a Question thread told me you can unlock Lunatic by beating the game on Hard, which soured my mood quite a bit when I found out it was bullshit since I was planning out my second playthrough on a harder difficulty setting).

I guess what jumps out at me is the wide range of Cavalier placements in Alm's route. They aren't different enough to warrant such disparity in tier placements. Clive looks pretty bad at first but he's just a level away from being easy mid tier to the end of the game. I would rate Mycen as the worst of the cavs, if only because he won't contribute anything besides final battle filler. Mathilda's stats are pretty insane though for a level 1 paladin so I agree she's above the pack. So besides Mycen going down to D or E tier, and Mathilda staying where she is, I think the remaining cavs deserve C. Maybe B since I don't have a good idea where divisions need to be laid. I know it's customary that there be so many tiers you eventually reach F tier for Forsyth since that is a joke that never gets old.

Edited by Glennstavos
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I don't really understand the high placement of the Mercs. Dread Fighter is a pretty good (albeit somewhat overrated IMO) class, but nothing about them really stands out before then.

I find the healers (mainly Genny and Cleric Faye, though Tatiana does become broken at the very end too... probably not for long enough to be that high though) underrated, on the other hand. Mages as well.

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8 hours ago, Azure in a Roundabout said:

S-tier (Must have, if you choose):
-Gray (Merc)
-Kliff (Merc)
-Tobin (Merc)

8 hours ago, Azure in a Roundabout said:

Criteria revolves around the level of efficiency that someone like Mekkah would want in other games.

Yeaaaaaah, not to be rude but the fact that Silque is not S while relatively replaceable combat units place above her doesn't really bode well with the whole "efficiency" criteria.

You also need a better format, the list is hard to read.
Regarding the branching promotions; most of the Villagers end up very similarly due to the way class bases overtake growths in this game. Only few stand out in their respective branches (e.g. Mage!Tobin, Cleric!Faye) so it might be a good idea to bundle them up in one category.

Here's an example using Alm's route (with explainations for each unit):

Spoiler

S-Tier
- Silque
The only unit that really deserves this tier. Warp is single most useful tool for fast clears and it cannot be replaced by anyone else in Alm's party.

A-Tier
- Villager Merc (Gray >  Kliff > Tobin)
- Alm
- Faye
Earlygame-wise the difference between the Villager Mercs and Alm aren't that big. He can do everything with the Levin Sword they can during Ch.1 and early Ch.3. Of course he falls off and Dread Fighters are one of the best classes for the endgame but Alm is your best unit in Ch.1 overall and he picks up again in Ch.4 once Celica enables his promotion.
Faye early on is "just" a heal bot until she gets Rescue around Ch.3. Early Physic is a nice thing to have though and Rescue has its uses, being essentially a movement extension. Also never expect her to get Anew in any faster run.

B-Tier
- Mathilda
- Clive
- Villager Cav (Kliff > Gray > Tobin)
- Clair
- Villager Archer (Kliff > Tobin > Gray)
- Tobin (Mage)

The difference between the cavaliers is neglible. Mathilda has overall the best paladin bases with actual Res but she joins mid Ch.3 while the others were around much longer, having potentially a level lead for promotion. I would still place her above them just for the fact that she has far superior bases and actual Res stat to not get nuked but.
Clive is very serviceable and has no trouble to enter Ch.3 as a Paladin whose bases are good enough for the entirety of Ch.3. The other Villager Cavs basically do the same thing, having just slightly better growths which don't matter that much in the long-run.
Clair joins early but her lack of durability is a real problem and being a Pegasus knight her promotion comes very late, meaning her stats aren't good for a long time. It doesn't help that Alm's Route doesn't have many terrors and large open fields which diminish her advantage of flying compared to the Cavaliers (in stark contrast to Celica's route where Fliers are very valuable). She can reliably double with the Ridersbane and that's about it really.
The Villager Archers are good to have for Ch.4 but it comes at the expense of being underwhelming before unlocking Hunter's Volley. Low Mov and bad class bases don't help. Kliff and Tobin are good candidates, one having the better growth and the other having the better base Spd.
Mage!Tobin stands out being able to snowball very quickly with his early Excalibur, having realistic chances to reach his Sage promotion by the Sylvan Shrine. While he is not overly useful in Ch.4 besides being a Physic bot he is by far the best mage for Ch.1 and Ch.3 where his low Mov is still somewhat tolerable.

C-Tier
- Python
- Tatiana
- Zeke
Python is your Villager Archer without the valuable EXP buffer that Ch.1 provides, making it that much harder for him to reach the Sniper promotion early enough to keep up. If you overcome that hurdle he is serviceable for the Killer Bow + Bow Knight combination.
Tatiana and Zeke come very late but can still be useful and specificially Zeke can replace any Gold Knight that didn't reach their level benchmark for promotion (which isn't an unrealistic scenario).

D-Tier:
- Mycen
- Villager Mage (Gray, Kliff)
- Luthier
- Lukas
- Delthea
tbf Mycen isn't that much worse than Zeke. His Spd loss is really not that relevant in Duma's Temple since the things that double him will also double the other Gold Knights. His better bulk can be actually more valuable in that case and he is still more than capable of chucking Gradivus at enemies. Having basically no availability otoh hurts and he doesn't offer anything your current roster couldn't provide.
Lukas performs well in Ch.1, babysitting your Villagers and has no trouble reaching promotion. But he is still a Knight at the end of the day and they are terrible in SoV with their terrible mov. Since we don't assume DLC forks there isn't much to salvage out of Lukas in the long run.
Any Mage that isn't Tobin ain't worth much outside of killing the Merc in Ch.1. Kliff gets Excalibur way too late while Gray or Faye don't have any good spells. Luthier lacks that use and while he has Excalibur he comes pretty late and as a Sage he lacks any other uses beyond his combat.
And Delthea? Ch.4 is right around the corner and you get a Lv.3 mage. Mage, not Priestess. Have fun. She is bad enough to be considered E-Tier tbh.

E-Tier:
- Forsyth
Also known as witch bait tier.

 

 

Edited by Magus of Memery
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2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm a bit curious on weapon forging logistics for a no-grind run. Beloved Zofia is totally being skipped because Celica is better with Magic, and Zweihanders make the best swords. Though whether a Rapier is worth making for Alm's route interests me.

There's most certainly enough funds to forge a Killer Bow on both sides by the mid part of Act 3.  Here's a thread showing just how much money you get throughout the game: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/bo53nw/the_fe15_money_floor/?st=JW1BJ415&sh=f1a0396f

Zewihandlers aren't actually the great of weapon, as are the Rapiers simply because they cost too much. Gold is much better off being used upgrading either the Killer Bow or Ridersbane, or being converted into Sliver marks to fund other forges.


For a +2 Zewihander in Act 3, for example, you'd need 85 Silver and 2 Gold for 11 might weapon with 75 Hit. A Rapier is even worse since it costs 130 Silver and 2 Gold just for +2 weapon with 5 might and 95 might.


In comparison, you could instead just forge a +3 Silver Sword. Forging it from a Steel Sword only costs 215 sliver for a 10 might weapon with 95 accuracy. Also helps that Roundhouse and Duelist Blow are especially useful that you get relatively soon and add a substantial amount to both Hit and Crit.

The extra effective might from the Rapier also isn't that much of a boon since even with a +3 Rapier, 18 might just isn't enough to one round Knights or Gold Knights without a Crit, let alone Barons. Two round KO'ing those enemies is the best a Dreadfighter is going to do, and they can accomplish that with a Silver Sword. 

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28 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

There's most certainly enough funds to forge a Killer Bow on both sides by the mid part of Act 3.  Here's a thread showing just how much money you get throughout the game: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/bo53nw/the_fe15_money_floor/?st=JW1BJ415&sh=f1a0396f

I actually remember being able to do that in my second and most recent play through back in the day.

Also, @Magus of Memery, thanks for your advice. I should just get more experience in any game before making a tier list on it. Thanks.

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/23/2019 at 2:58 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

-Celica should be swapped with Boey. Giving Boey 1 Attack and 2 Speed from priory wells only puts him 1 attack off from one rounding a lot of bandits in act 2, which can net him a lot of experience. Celica can never say the same she retaliates with her sword at 1 range instead of magic.

-Nomah should also be higher than Valbar since he can put in work by using Sagittae in combination with the Speed Ring to help provide large chip damage to enemies. 

there are a few other points i disagree with, but these are the ones i oppose vehemently to.

boey should not be in celicas place, and celica shouldnt be in boeys. these two units do have pretty comparable base stats, with celica leading in skill and speed by three each, and boey leading in luck and hp by one and two respectively, which makes this the one argument i can think of where growths are more important than bases in terms of stats. and it isnt even really close. celicas attack and speed growths outpace boeys, so that commanding speed lead just widens, and it isnt long before celicas damage output per hit overshadows boey as well. you said yourself boey comes close to one rounding pirates, but close to one rounding means little to nothing.

however, a unit is more than just their stats and in these areas celica also tends to beat boey. the most important thing to a mage in this game is their spell list, since not all mages learn the same spells. celicas spells and learn times are all significantly better than boeys, most notably seraphim, which is what really sets her ahead in the long run. in celicas route, once the low res units(which celica handles better than boey anyway) are through with at the end of act three, and act four begins, a player should look for two things on celicas route; firstly, the ability to take on mages, and secondly, anti-terror capabilities. the sword you cited as a handicap for celica earlier does help her a little bit with the mages, who tend to have higher res than def, but you should have at least one dread fighter by now, so neither of these units really need to worry much. what they do need to worry about are terrors, and celicas access to seraphim immediately sets her above boey in this regard.

also, nomah has no business being above valbar. valbar at least has some use early game as a meatshield while your squishy, squishy army hides and fights pirates from afar, even if he doesnt do it as well as saber or kamui, but nomah does nothing. his combat is pitiful, and he has no anti-terror spells either, so he basically ends up in a similar boat to boey, but boey had time to grow, and some use in the early chapters. nomah is just diving headlong into celicas extremely terror heavy lategame with no way to deal with terrors and no real utility to bring to the table.

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Legitimate question from a fellow semi-noob: Why is soldier Kliff so low? I get that soldiers are generally disliked, but soldier kliff patches up one of the classes biggest weaknesses, that being speed. As for the others, low movement and res, he’ll suffer from those as a mage as well. I’d put soldier Kliff in the same tier as mage Kliff, personally, but there are probably reasons I’m missing.

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12 hours ago, side bee said:

Boey should not be in Celica's place. While they do have pretty comparable base stats, Celica has the better growths. You said yourself boey comes close to one rounding pirates, but close to one rounding means little to nothing.


The most important thing to a mage in this game is their spell list. Celica's spells and learn times are all significantly better than boeys, most notably seraphim, which is what really sets her ahead in the long run.


By Act 4 of Celica's route, the player should look for two things in a unit; firstly, the ability to take on mages, and secondly, anti-terror capabilities. The sword Celica uses helps her a little bit with the mages, but they're main concern are terrors, Celica's access to seraphim immediately sets her above boey in this regard.

Also, Nomah has no business being above Valbar. Valbar at least has some use early game as a meatshield even if he doesnt do it as well as saber or kamui. Nomah does nothing. His combat is pitiful as he has no good deal with terrors in Act 4 and doesn't provide any useful utility. 

While Boey may be reliant on the Level ups to be able to one round pirates, having the chance to one round is a lot better than being completely incapable of doing so since Celica since she retaliates with her Sword on Enemy Phase. Having better growths also doesn't matter that much considering that Boey is going to be gaining more Experience due to seeing more combat on enemy phase since he deals more damage than Celica. 

Seraphim also doesn't really do much for Celica for both Act 2 and 3 due to the general lack of Terrors outside of Cantors, which aren't that threatening. And while you claim that Boey has no tools for dealing with Terrors in Act 4, he gains access to Sagittae when he reaches level 12.  

That spell is only 5 might less than Seraphim against Terrors, while being 9 might stronger than everything else. Combined with the Speed Ring from Alm's route, he can do significant chip damage against all enemies, if not just straight up one round them. 

Plus, you're overestimating Celica's performance with Seraphim just a tad. Most terrors that aren't one rounded by Dreadfighters she will also have a difficulty one rounding them. The Dracozombies in 4-2 and 4-3 for example, require 36 attack to one round when Celica only has a base of 34 attack with Seraphim after promoting. 

You also have to consider that Celica performs very poorly in act 3. She only has 1 movement through desert tiles while Boey has 2 movement. That means while Boey can do things like provide chip damage or shove some units, Celica is going to be struggling to much of anything of note in the those maps. 

Not to mention that her starting position always locked, so she will easily be left behind in a great deal of maps simply because she stuck with 4 Movement. 

While Boey may not be best unit in the route, His enemy phase in act 2, increased movement in act 3, and being able to deal massive chip damage in Act 4 puts him far above Celica's performance.

________________

As for Valbar being better Nomah, I have yet to find a compelling scenario where Valbar would be preferable to deploy over any unit in the route. At best, he baits the 2-8 boss, but even that can easily be done by any other unit.

Nomah, on the hand, can replicate a promoted Boey's performance for Act 4. Being able to chip enemies with Sagittae for no investment in Experience is far better than just being available without doing anything substantial.

Edited by LoneRecon400
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10 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

While Boey may be reliant on the Level ups to be able to one round pirates, having the chance to one round is a lot better than being completely incapable of doing so since Celica since she retaliates with her Sword on Enemy Phase. Having better growths also doesn't matter that much considering that Boey is going to be gaining more Experience due to seeing more combat on enemy phase since he deals more damage than Celica. 

Seraphim also doesn't really do much for Celica for both Act 2 and 3 due to the general lack of Terrors outside of Cantors, which aren't that threatening. And while you claim that Boey has no tools for dealing with Terrors in Act 4, he gains access to Sagittae when he reaches level 12.  

That spell is only 5 might less than Seraphim against Terrors, while being 9 might stronger than everything else. Combined with the Speed Ring from Alm's route, he can do significant chip damage against all enemies, if not just straight up one round them. 

Plus, you're overestimating Celica's performance with Seraphim just a tad. Most terrors that aren't one rounded by Dreadfighters she will also have a difficulty one rounding them. The Dracozombies in 4-2 and 4-3 for example, require 36 attack to one round when Celica only has a base of 34 attack with Seraphim after promoting. 

You also have to consider that Celica performs very poorly in act 3. She only has 1 movement through desert tiles while Boey has 2 movement. That means while Boey can do things like provide chip damage or shove some units, Celica is going to be struggling to much of anything of note in the those maps. 

Not to mention that her starting position always locked, so she will easily be left behind in a great deal of maps simply because she stuck with 4 Movement. 

While Boey may not be best unit in the route, His enemy phase in act 2, increased movement in act 3, and being able to deal massive chip damage in Act 4 puts him far above Celica's performance.

________________

As for Valbar being better Nomah, I have yet to find a compelling scenario where Valbar would be preferable to deploy over any unit in the route. At best, he baits the 2-8 boss, but even that can easily be done by any other unit.

Nomah, on the hand, can replicate a promoted Boey's performance for Act 4. Being able to chip enemies with Sagittae for no investment in Experience is far better than just being available without doing anything substantial.

I really don't see the Sagittae hype - it's powerful, sure, but the accuracy is cause for concern (70 base hit is rather shaky to be relying on, and 80 as a Sage isn't that much better, since it's still a 1/5 chance you accomplish nothing)...

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10 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

As for Valbar being better Nomah, I have yet to find a compelling scenario where Valbar would be preferable to deploy over any unit in the route. 

Well, this is echoes, where unit deployment slots don’t matter, except in dungeons. Even then, there’s no reason not to deploy Valbar in the Seabound Shrine, at the very least, because you only have 8 characters for 10 slots. Levelling him up, even if it’s just through the afterbattle EXP, helps him keep up with your other units. As opposed to Nomah, who joins as a healbot and stays a healbot. I can’t find any reason to deploy Nomah in any dungeon- in the Lost Treescape, you’ve just recruited Conrad, so he can fill a spare slot on your team. As for Duma Tower, that late into the game, you should have a solid team that can pull their own weight, and his bases aren’t impressive enough to warrant replacing one of your units for him.

Valbar is also an amazing early game tank, which, while units like Saber can pull off, Valbar is much better at pure defence. In Deen’s map, for example, he’s amazing at tanking all the mercenaries/myrmidons while your mages attack from behind.

Basically, while he’s not a great unit, I’d still say Valbar contributes more to the team than Nomah does, even if you’re not willing to actively level him up. 

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17 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Valbar is an amazing early game tank. In Deen’s map, for example, he’s amazing at tanking all the mercenaries/myrmidons while your mages attack from behind.

This is also Echoes. The only time unit deployment slots matter is in dungeons. Bringing him to dungeons also lets him gain afterbattle EXP, which lets helps him keep up with your other units. 

In comparison, Nomah, who joins as a healbot and stays a healbot, doesn't have any reason to be deployed in any dungeon. You recruit Conrad just before Lost Treescape while in Duma Tower all of you're units are going to be stronger than him. 

Basically, while he’s not a great unit, I’d still say Valbar contributes more to the team than Nomah does, even if you’re not willing to actively level him up. 

Valbar's durablity is superficial during Act 2 since nothing hits that hard to justify his high defense when he is incapable of doubling. He also fails to do anything meaningful in the desert maps of Act 3 due to his 1 movement in that terrain. 

Even in the map you cited as a example, you don't need Valbar to mitigate the damage of the enemies. You could instead use Inovke to impede the movement of the Myrmidons since nothing barring Deen one rounds the phantoms, which is enough to inflict enough chip damage to comfortable dispose of them. 

That's the only map where Valbar's overkill defense can come into play at all, and it's not even guaranteed to be played at all. If the player decides to engage Sonya's map instead, he's a down right liability considering that he could easily be one rounded by the Thunder Witches. 

Dungeons also don't impact the performance of a unit at all, considering almost every fight in them is optional and is often your entire team against 3 or 4 units.  They're only relevant by giving units free experience, which really only matters if a unit is nearing promotion, which Valbar will never be. 

Nomah, on the other hand, can replicate a promoted Boey's performance for Act 4. This is noteworthy because if one decides to give the Priory Shinres to Mae instead for guaranteed one rounding, Boey will never come close to his promotion due his middling combat. 

A Speed Ring Sagittae user isn't exactly the best combat unit by that point, but they can still provide chip damage against the more durable units such as Necrodragons or Bonewalkers in Duma Tower that other units struggle to one round. That's a lot more than other units such as Conrad or Valbar provide. 

Edited by LoneRecon400
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13 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

you don't need Valbar 

You could make the same argument for Nomah though. You don’t necessarily need him to chip, because you have several other units who can do the same, or better. Yes, you don’t need Valbar as a tank in the early game, but if you want, he’ll get the job done, and won’t detract from your team in any way. With Nomah, however, if you give him a speed ring, you’re potentially taking away an item that could be put to better use on one of your other units. Not to mention it has to be traded over from Alm’s route in the first place. And if you don’t give Nomah the speed ring, then forget doubling anything, unless you use fire (but at that point, Sagittae will do more damage anyway)

13 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Valbar's durablity is superficial during Act 2 since nothing hits that hard to justify his high defense 

This may just be my bias towards armour knights, but I think  having overkill defence is better than having just enough. That defence stat that seems way too high for Act 2 can come in handy in Act 3, if you need another tank. In Grieth’s Citadel, for example, Valbar’s base 12 defence matches the attack stat of the bonewalkers the cantor summons, making him useful for tanking those guys at the very least. And Grieth needs to crit him twice to one-round him at base, so if Valbar got even a few levels, or a shield, he can be used to safely bait Grieth. Again, not necessary to beat the map, but it could be helpful, if, say, Saber got defence screwed.

 

13 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Dungeons are only relevant by giving units free experience, which really only matters if a unit is nearing promotion, which Valbar will never be. 

If you don’t use him (as in, bringing him into battles, but not actively fighting with him until he reaches 90 something exp), he should get at least 1 or 2 levels from bonus experience (I think, anyway, the last time I played without Valbar was a while back). It helps extend his longevity as a tank a bit further, and while his other stats suck (apart from attack, that’s not bad), he at least has a niche he can fill up until he falls off towards the end of Act 3. If you do use him in Act 2 and feed him some kills, you can promote him and potentially have a unit strong enough to be on Celica’s final team for Duma Tower and the endgame. Nomah, on the other hand, only really fills the niche of a healbot from when he joins in Act 4, and even that isn’t necessary to beat Celica's route (my heart goes out to all the poor souls who missed recruiting Nomah- they were never graced by his memely presence). He can chip if you want him to, but you said yourself, his job is basically to replace Boey if he never made it to promotion/got stat screwed. If you have a decent Boey, he’s more than a little redundant, and even if you don’t, Nomah will just be an inferior version of that, if you decide to use him at all.

Also, Nomah will never near promotion either. Sadly, he’ll never get those years back. XP

Edited by Anathaco
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On 6/24/2019 at 12:49 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

While Boey may be reliant on the Level ups to be able to one round pirates, having the chance to one round is a lot better than being completely incapable of doing so since Celica since she retaliates with her Sword on Enemy Phase. Having better growths also doesn't matter that much considering that Boey is going to be gaining more Experience due to seeing more combat on enemy phase since he deals more damage than Celica.

well, in any other game it would be huge, giving him 1-2 range. it is not, however, so big here, since archers have way wider range than that. that means boey only get to counter enemy mages with his extra range, which is kinda pointless, since their res is higher anyway. he does get to hit on the pirates lower res, though. which is nice, i guess. but i believe youre underestimating celicas enemy phase. even against most of these pirates on enemy phase, celica still deals like 14 damage, thanks to her speed. this isnt one rounding, but it is really good chip damage so someone like boey, whose combat is generally underwhelming, can get some of that good shit, that kill exp, baby.

even still, i think youre overestimating enemy phase. boeys almost one rounding thanks to enemy phase utility is celicas almost one rounding on player phase, but she doesnt need to be counterattacked. if boeys main use is to fight and almost kill on enemy phase, i fail to see how thats better than celica fighting and almost killing on player phase, especially as, again, she still deals 14 damage on enemy phase if she counters, which is certainly enough to clean up the pirates.

i would also like to point out that celicas base defensive stats are almost all equal to boeys at base, so if you feel comfortable letting enemies beat the hell out of boey, you should have just as much confidence in celica, whose chance of one rounding most early game enemies is just as good as boeys. which is to say bad, since they both rely on level ups to one round anything on their own.

boeys enemy phase utility is not better than celicas, since not killing pirates by 2 and not killing them by 12 wont make a difference to most of your party at this point, since pirates have little babby res stats. either way, other members of your party can sweep them up easily. either way, its not a kill.

On 6/24/2019 at 12:49 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Seraphim also doesn't really do much for Celica for both Act 2 and 3 due to the general lack of Terrors outside of Cantors, which aren't that threatening. And while you claim that Boey has no tools for dealing with Terrors in Act 4, he gains access to Sagittae when he reaches level 12.  

That spell is only 5 might less than Seraphim against Terrors, while being 9 might stronger than everything else. Combined with the Speed Ring from Alm's route, he can do significant chip damage against all enemies, if not just straight up one round them.

sagittae is just not that good a spell, its too slow, too costly and effectively does too little. boey combined with speed ring could one round enemies? then so can celica, whats stopping a player from using the speed ring on a character using a faster, less costly spell which deals more damage pound for pound anyway?

On 6/24/2019 at 12:49 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Plus, you're overestimating Celica's performance with Seraphim just a tad. Most terrors that aren't one rounded by Dreadfighters she will also have a difficulty one rounding them. The Dracozombies in 4-2 and 4-3 for example, require 36 attack to one round when Celica only has a base of 34 attack with Seraphim after promoting. 

do you think boey does better with a weaker, slower attack, and less overall offensive presence?

On 6/24/2019 at 12:49 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

You also have to consider that Celica performs very poorly in act 3. She only has 1 movement through desert tiles while Boey has 2 movement. That means while Boey can do things like provide chip damage or shove some units, Celica is going to be struggling to much of anything of note in the those maps. 

Not to mention that her starting position always locked, so she will easily be left behind in a great deal of maps simply because she stuck with 4 Movement

i will cede the point that she has generally worse act 3 performance, but she at least does decently anywhere but the pirate citadel. my big complaint with her in act 3 is that she cant promote til its over, which is super obnoxious.

On 6/24/2019 at 12:49 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

While Boey may not be best unit in the route, His enemy phase in act 2, increased movement in act 3, and being able to deal massive chip damage in Act 4 puts him far above Celica's performance.

an enemy phase which is not better in any super relevant manner, increased by a relatively negligible number, and requiring an item to do what almost every other mage can do pretty easily.

On 6/24/2019 at 12:49 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

As for Valbar being better Nomah, I have yet to find a compelling scenario where Valbar would be preferable to deploy over any unit in the route. At best, he baits the 2-8 boss, but even that can easily be done by any other unit.

Nomah, on the hand, can replicate a promoted Boey's performance for Act 4. Being able to chip enemies with Sagittae for no investment in Experience is far better than just being available without doing anything substantial

hes good for drawing enemy aggro. consider the mercenaries along celicas route. nasty bastards. a lot of them cause trouble, because they have upwards of 9 attack and 10 speed, some having as much as 13 attack and 12 speed(i will clarify, for the sake of integrity, that no unit in the early game has both). valbar, with his 12 defense, can stand against these guys all day, and his armor knight movement isnt too bad, since noone else is promoted, and movement for base level classes is low. i dont think anybody handles these guys as well on enemy phase as valbar does.

nomah doing boeys job is unimpressive, for reasons i detailed in my celica v boey college entry essay(sorry about how wordy this has been, btw. i tried to break it up so its not miserable to read).

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21 hours ago, Anathaco said:

You could make the same argument for Nomah about being unneccassry. You don’t need Valbar as a tank in the early game, but if you want, he’ll get the job done, and won’t detract from your team in any way. 

Having overkill defence is better than having just enough. That high defense stat that seems way too high for Act 2 can come in handy in Act in maps such as Grieth’s Citadel.


Valbar should get 1 or 2 levels from bonus experience, which helps extend his longevity as a tank a bit further until he falls off towards the end of Act 3. If you do invest in him and promote him, you have a unit strong enough to be on Celica’s final team for Duma Tower and the endgame. 

With Nomah, however, if you give him a speed ring, you’re potentially taking away an item that could be put to better use on one of your other units.

Nomah only really fills the niche of a healbot in early Act 4, and even that isn’t necessary to beat Celicas route. If you have a decent Boey, he’s more than a little redundant, and even if you don’t, Nomah will just be an inferior version of that, if you decide to use him at all.

Valbar detracts from the team in that his offensives aren't good enough to chip down enemies for other units to defeat while also being completely hampered by terrain to point where everyone has to slow down for him to catch up or actively gets in everyone's way.

Grieth’s Citadel is a prime example of this. Valbar has to spend a turn just to move desert tiles at the entrance, blocking other 1 movement such as Genny or Celica. 

Not to mention his durability is not anything particularly special. A promoted Palla, for example,  has 10 Defense so that she only takes 2 damage from the Bonewalkers and one rounds them in exchange. Even a base Myrmidon only takes 5 damage, which means they're 5 round KO'd with low hit rates due to floor tiles and potential healing from the blessed sword. 

And while Greith is threatening, he's not so much of a threat that you need to drag Valbar all the way to where he is to fight him. He even fails to 2 round KO a base Mymidon with a Leather Shield. It's his durability that is the cause for concern, not  his offense. 

Getting one or two levels also isn't going to help a unit's longevity when you're never going to gain the Attack or Speed to hit new benchmarks.  Valbar also getting anywhere near promotion is also very dubious. Saber is one of the best units in the route and is given a map almost entirely to himself, yet still struggles to reach promotion before Mila Temple. 

Even if we assumed that he managed to promote to Baron by Duma Tower, he will not be doing anything productive in there. Not only would he be unable to do any meaningful damage since he'd be unable to double anything, he'd also being taking huge amounts since they're are some enemies that reach upwards of over 30 attack while the Baron base Defense is only 18. And that's not to mention how some of those same enemies double him.  

As for Nomah taking the Speed ring, it's a largely uncontested item. Enemies in Celica's route are either so slow they fail to break over double digits in Speed or are so quick that most units will be unable to double them even with the Speed Ring, so other mages don't need the Speed ring. 

To give a example, a promoted Celica with Speed Ring only has 17 AS using Seraphim. That's no way near close enough to double the Mogalls in Duma Tower with their 23 AS. 

With the Speed Ring and Sagittae, Nomah reaches 28 Attack and 7 AS. If that doesn't seem impressive, that's because it's not. It's not often not enough attack to one round many enemies and it's sometimes not enough Speed to outspeed enemies in Duma Tower. 

But I would ask of you to look at the stats of the enemies in Duma Tower and realize just how durable they are. You have Fiends with 51 HP and 13 Resistance, Necrodragons with with 53 HP and 14 Resistance, and Mogalls with only 41 HP and 4 Res, but with 23 Speed. 

These are not one rounding benchmarks any unit is capable of reaching, even with spells that has effectively 21 might. So having a unit that's capable of inflicting a moderate amounts of damage can help to result in other units being suddenly be able to one round these enemies. 

Even if you have Boey use the Speed Ring instead, you still have him engage in using the Mage Ring for a five range Sagittae chip and then have it be traded it off to another unit. Niche, but it can provide the necessary amount of chip for other units to one round.  

So while he may be stuck with middling stats, Nomah still contributes by able to deal damage when everyone else struggles to one round. That's more than anything Valbar is capable in Acts 2 and 3. 

It's getting a bit late here and this post is long enough, so I'll respond to Side Bee's comments tomorrow.

Edited by LoneRecon400
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