Understanding Both Sides of Sacred Stones

[TheRealReginleif]

For years, I have been hearing a mixed melting pot of opinions when it comes to Fire Emblem 8 (Sacred Stones). I like to compare Sacred Stones to the likes of Sonic Heroes and Super Mario Sunshine, in the likes that those games leave in an impression that can differ from player to player. In Layman's terms, Some may like how Sacred Stones from how it functions, to just the overall aesthetic or vibe the game gives that can make players love the game. While on the other hand, Some players may not see what people like in Sacred Stones, and just can't get into the style that it has  going for it. (If that makes sense)

Now I personally, LOVE Sacred Stones and would say that its is one of, if not the best Fire Emblem game for anyone, as it includes most, if not all the things both the new and old fans, here are some examples:

For Classic Fans:

- Permadeath

- Durabilities (including Legendary weapons)

- Very finite resources

For New Fans:

- Not as hard as predecessor(s)

- Tower/Ruins help boost characters

- More Choice in what classes characters can be and just overall replayability

Another reason as to why I love the game is because of the cast of characters. Now keep in mind that each Fire Emblem has their own well rounded cast of characters, that I'm sure people will say that this character is better than any of FE8's cast. But to me at least, FE8's cast just seemed to stand out in a weird way. Let me use my favorite character in Sacred Stones, Gilliam as an example.

(SPOILER WARNING)

At surface level, Gilliam seems like a guy who has seen some battles in his time and that he may be stern in his word choice and delivery. But If you seen his Support Conversations with the cast, you will see that he is much more than the stereotypical Knight we get in a lot of other FE's. In his C Support with Franz, Gilliam explains to Franz that he needs to work every bone in his body during training and stop worrying about slowing Gilliam down. His B Support showcases Gilliam complimenting Franz for keeping up with the Frelian training. It is then that Gilliam will learn something new from Franz, as Franz explains to him that it was not only the Frelian training that helped him, but his Renain pre-resting stretches. Gilliam asks what Franz means and Franz teaches him the technique, as the conversation pretty much comes to an end. His last Support with Franz, starts with Gilliam thanking Franz for teaching him the stretch exercises and realizes that there is more than just what he knew about training the body. It may be a small, and meaningless conversation, but it's stuff like this that makes Gilliam more human than a lot of other knights I can think of. And there's more! In all of his supports with Syrene, (Gilliam's practical love-interest) Gilliam looks up to Syrene for answers to questions that others have asked him, as it seems that many consider him one of the wiser soldiers in the group. In fact, Gilliam feels as if Syrene is one of, if not, the best of the Frelian knights out there. (Plus, he is kinda shy towards her) If Gilliam had a motto, I believe it would be "Looks can and very well be deceiving". Gilliam, I believe, doesn't rely on any quirk or gimmick or trope to justify what his character is. He's not ""slow" like Arden, and he's not like Kellam where he's forgettable. (Literally, like people in game sometimes don't see him when he could be right in front of their face) Gilliam is just a guy who happens to know a thing or two about Frelia. And in a world where it seems that everyone is like the main character of their own story, a character that is "normal" or "just another guy" is more than alright with me.

With my bias out of the way, I want to hear what you think about SS. Let me know if you are with me or if you disagree, or if you are generally unsure about any of the points I have mentioned. I will try to explain as best as I can. I'm really interested to hear both sides of the discussion.

 

Have yourselves a great day,

RealReginleif out.

[eclipse]

I didn't much care for SS's characters.  I'm not sure if you've played FE7, but if you haven't, give it a whirl.  The truly interesting supports are the former Black Fang members.

EDIT: As in, if you analyzed their supports in the same way you laid out Gilliam, you'd wonder why they were relegated to a subplot.

Edited June 12, 2019 by eclipse

[TheRealReginleif]

@eclipse I have heard that FE7 cast is strong, I actually have been thinking of trying out the game. I might even to that tonight lol.

[Lightcosmo]

I generally enjoy SS, it's just a little short for my tastes, I think. I don't think there is anything wrong with the game not being designed around difficulty.

[Sethlite]

Personally I quite enjoy fe8. I love the freedom you have to construct your team. While difficult games do a better job of differentiating the characters, I like how easy games like fe8 allow me to pick any lineup and take it to the end of the game. And that combined with the dual path class system makes it really easy to tailor characters to meet the needs of the group. I enjoy the harder games like fe6 and 7 but sometimes I want the mindless game where I don't have to think too hard and I can't just play whatever I want. I count it as a win that any character can really shine and you can focus on them without much detriment to the other characters. 

I think the characters in fe8 are a bit of a mixed bag. Each one is actually pretty quirky in their own way but many are still forgettable, the lords especially. Mephraim is bland as all get out, which is not to say he's entirely devoid of personality, just that its bland. Some of his supports are funny, if cringy (larachel), but despite his great combat, he's just not a character I feel invested in. Eliwood was also about as interesting as a rice cake but he at least has a modicum of diversity in his interactions with different characters like Hector, Marcus, and Ninian. Ephraim is a commander. He leads men into battle. And can't talk to girls. Erica has been discussed to death, and whether you like or dislike her transformation from innocent child to mighty warrior I still didn't think she fits in very well. She does at least have some more dynamic story arcs though, actually having a bit of character development throughout the story.  There are a number of child characters that have growth arcs through their supports but it feels very odd next to the more staunch characters like Seth and Duessel. Plus there's really no pay off for them, aside from maybe Franz. Lords aside there are some great characters and supports in fe8, and is imho one of it's stronger points. Cormag plays the desolate loner without coming across as an edgelord. Innes plays that even closer to the chest. Joshua plays an exciting prince turned adventurer. Despite some of the childishness of the characters, their supports are fun to read and give a surprising amount of vivacity and uniqueness to so many of them. 

The story has a dark feel to it but is very short. The ramifications of monsters being released on the world don't seem to be highlighted well. Many characters feel out of place in how overly childish they are, like the recruits, Artur, lute, and to an extent even dozla. Some of the characters just don't seem to take it seriously. The villains are compelling as far as the original generals go like Glenn and selena but I feel like others such as riev and caellach have only the skeleton of a character without actually having any more backstory than a typical one-time enemy of the power rangers. That said I actually think valter is kinda fun. They don't even really bother with a back story for him and just play him completely as a disposable Saturday morning dirt bag villain and i love it. 

I like the idea of the story. I like that it starts with lyon trying to control powers beyond him to do what he thinks is right. I feel like the story really only brushes on it though instead of focusing on it. Instead it focuses more on Erica and Ephraim trying to save him and showing that they still love him rather than focusing on how Lyon himself is dealing with his own decisions. But that's a personal preference and doesn't necessarily reflect the literary prowess of the story (which admittedly is still weak but no more so than most fe games). And it's a qualm I have as a whole, where I feel like there were lots of good ideas that never get fully fleshed out. It felt like it was just too short and didn't have time to really dig into the meat of everything it tried to present. 

I do enjoy the creature campaign, mostly because me and my friends still play the link arena a lot and I have spent countless hours replaying the game to build the supports and weapon ranks on many characters to find the best teams. Link arena on fe8 is much better than others.

Ultimately I just wish they'd done more with it and hope they return to it. I truly did enjoy the game. 

 

[Rapaille]

I personally don't consider myself a huge fan of Sacred Stones. The main issue that I have with the game is that in my eyes it doesn't improve or add interesting things to the formula that fe6 & 7 laid out (know that I also dislike fe9 for similar reasons but much more). The things that they added are in my eyes either not things that the series needs (grinding and an overworld map) or nice additions that aren't really necessary (branched promotion and post-game). I also consider the main characters a considerable downgrade from the previous game which really hurts the story since I can't relate on a deep emotional level which was the reason why fe7's (and fe5 & 9) story worked despite the loose writing.

What keeps this game from being a bad game for me is the fact that the supporting cast is really good and probably one of the better ones. While I really dislike the fact that some characters only get developed in supports it's probably one of the best at using supports to develop their characters together with fe7.

And what I pointed out last is really the main problem I have with fe8. If you have played fe7 it really doesn't do anything interesting or new or really good if you ask me. It isn't really bad in any category like either fe4, fe10 or Fates but it also doesn't excel at anything that fe7 does better for me. Maybe if I had played fe8 first and fe7 later I would like this game more but that isn't the case.

If anyone likes fe8, that's not really that strange to me (I like fe4 and that game is super flawed). It's not a bad game. It's just a game that didn't impress me.

Edited June 23, 2019 by LJwalhout
typo

[TheRealReginleif]

@LJwalhout That's interesting. I can see sorta why when you put it that way. However, I'm curious, what do you feel about Gaiden in that sense? A lot of stuff that was in Sacred Stones was borrowed from Gaiden. And even with all the problems FE8 has, would you hypothetically look forward to a remake?

 

[TheRealReginleif]

@Sethlite So how would you feel about a remake or a new story that took place in Magvel (similar to FE6/7)?

[Rapaille]

17 hours ago, TheRealReginleif said:

@LJwalhout That's interesting. I can see sorta why when you put it that way. However, I'm curious, what do you feel about Gaiden in that sense? A lot of stuff that was in Sacred Stones was borrowed from Gaiden. And even with all the problems FE8 has, would you hypothetically look forward to a remake?

 

I will be honest and say that I haven't played a lot of Gaiden. I have however played Shadows of Valentia so I can compare it with that game.

I like Shadows of Valentia a little bit more mostly because of the presentation but also because while I still prefer the more traditional structure that fe7 uses, Shadow iof alentia (and I also assume Gaiden) is built around these mechanics with how dungeons and towns work and the fact that you can find loot which you can improve in towns. Fe8 is more a hybrid between fe2/15 and fe6/7 mechanics and it simply doesn't work because the mechanics don't compliment each other. In my eyes you could simply remove the overworld and grinding and not much would change (this argument also applies to fe13, Birthright and Revelations but a bit less due to the child mechanics and even then it would still be possible to do it the way Conquest did). If I would have implemented an overworld I would make it unlockable after you finished the game and have some challenging maps to test the player.

I would look forward to a remake of fe8 if not just to see some of my favourite characters to be presented in a modern way. I also really don't dislike the game so it wouldn't like if they remade Fates which I have zero interest in. It can also be a way to introduce my friends to the older Fire Emblem games which I certainly welcome. The Only thing that holds me back from playing it is the fact that I don't have any modern consoles and don't plan on buying one.

[TheRealReginleif]

@LJwalhout I mean, I will admit that Sacred Stones in terms of mechanics, may have cause some less than desirable games as the years went on, but unless Three Houses becomes somehow worse than FE15, I see it to hopefully iron out issues the other FE games had as a whole. I also really hope FE8 does get a remake soon, but I can wait on it. Besides, FE 4-6 needs it more than FE8 right now. But thank you for giving me a different perspective, it helps out a lot!

[Shadow Mir]

Personally, I'm not a fan of Sacred Stones. Story wise, it drops the ball in just about every imaginable way. Character wise, it's hit-or-miss, but mostly miss since most of the characters are as (un)memorable as Archanea characters. Gameplay wise, it doesn't really improve upon Blazing Blade. Long story short, what it does good, other FE games do better, and what it does bad, it does really bad.

[TheRealReginleif]

@Shadow Mir I can see why people wouldn't like the idea of the story. I would even admit that the story on Eirika's side seems a little lack-luster. (She's also kind of am idiot by just handing Lyon the stone like that.) However, I can't say that I agree with the notion that the gameplay doesn't really improve that much. Towers/Ruins, love them or hate them, are available to the players in case they don't feel as if their units are strong enough for the chapter ahead. And sure, the game is easy enough without Towers, but at the end of the day, it is more of a choice rather than a necessity to finish the main game. And one could make the argument that Towers/Ruins gives the game even more content, given that the levels in the Towers/Ruins can house special gimmicks like Poison walls, and even the monsters can hold unique/rare items that you wont really get in Armories or in Shops. (Yes, even after the Main Game.) That's just me though. (Edit: You can also earn the some of the Minor and all of the major Heroes/Villains like Caellach, Selena, Fado, Vigarde, and even Lyon, just to name a few.)

Edited July 7, 2019 by TheRealReginleif
Missed Information

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/7/2019 at 7:33 AM, TheRealReginleif said:

@Shadow Mir I can see why people wouldn't like the idea of the story. I would even admit that the story on Eirika's side seems a little lack-luster. (She's also kind of am idiot by just handing Lyon the stone like that.) However, I can't say that I agree with the notion that the gameplay doesn't really improve that much. Towers/Ruins, love them or hate them, are available to the players in case they don't feel as if their units are strong enough for the chapter ahead. And sure, the game is easy enough without Towers, but at the end of the day, it is more of a choice rather than a necessity to finish the main game. And one could make the argument that Towers/Ruins gives the game even more content, given that the levels in the Towers/Ruins can house special gimmicks like Poison walls, and even the monsters can hold unique/rare items that you wont really get in Armories or in Shops. (Yes, even after the Main Game.) That's just me though. (Edit: You can also earn the some of the Minor and all of the major Heroes/Villains like Caellach, Selena, Fado, Vigarde, and even Lyon, just to name a few.)

The problem I have is that in general, it doesn't really add anything noteworthy to bolster the gameplay. Creature Campaign doesn't really add much to the game other than the ability to unlock some NPCs for use, but most of them aren't that good compared to characters you got in the base game. And don't get me started on how underwhelming Lyon is for all the effort you have to put in to unlock him...

[Sethlite]

I think that while the towers/creature campaign don't enhance the story they absolutely add gameplay. They have unique level designs and as was said, additional gimmicks and surprises, and many of the towers reward a little out of the box thinking missing from the rest of the game. While you may not enjoy the additional npc units that can be gained, many completionists enjoy getting them. Further, my friends and I enjoy that the creature campaign allows you to literally max out your team. Purchasable stat boosters and attainable swiftsoles can let you make your dream team powerful and lead to a more balanced and stable link arena line up which I feel is only viable in ss. Maybe these features aren't exciting to you but personally I love these features and am very glad an fe advanced game have these

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/8/2019 at 1:59 PM, Sethlite said:

I think that while the towers/creature campaign don't enhance the story they absolutely add gameplay. They have unique level designs and as was said, additional gimmicks and surprises, and many of the towers reward a little out of the box thinking missing from the rest of the game. While you may not enjoy the additional npc units that can be gained, many completionists enjoy getting them. Further, my friends and I enjoy that the creature campaign allows you to literally max out your team. Purchasable stat boosters and attainable swiftsoles can let you make your dream team powerful and lead to a more balanced and stable link arena line up which I feel is only viable in ss. Maybe these features aren't exciting to you but personally I love these features and am very glad an fe advanced game have these

I don't really see it. Personally, I'd rather SS not have Creature Campaign, but be longer in exchange. My issue with the NPC units is that most of them fail to compare to units I would have been training in the base game - a situation quite unlike Awakening, where Gangrel, Walhart, and the other SpotPass paralogue units actually brought something to the table. Here? I struggle to find Caellach, Selena, etc. worth a deployment slot (the only one who averts this is Riev, and that's because of his class)