Fe9 VS Fe10

[mariogamer]

I liked switching sides in radiant dawn. Tho I still hate the dawn brigade (the main character is a mage, which I hated playing with in PoR, and that I still hated in RD)

I don't know if I really liked PoR's main storyline, it felt kind of linear with a very set goal, while radiant dawn mostly never felt like that, once you get through part 1. I haven't experienced all the supports from PoR, but these were great. There is something that I didn't like from the get go on RD, tho, and that probably is the artstyle. Idk, but it felt off from the simplicity of PoR. (I ended up forgetting about it, but I remember that it was my first reaction).

The blood pact wasn't a problem, it added to an already good side of the story.

Otherwise, I can't really decide on which game was the best. I also mostly don't care about gameplay, as long as the story is good. So I'll probably give it to RD. (I mean, RH, cause Haar is the only character, right?)

[vercio]

Radiant Dawn, just because of the weak beginning of PoR. Of course RD is up on the player's knowledge of Path of Radiance. That's why well-made sequels are always better than the first issue of an Entertainment Medium. But of course, if you do not understand who Ike is and what the Greil Mercenaries accomplished 3 years before Radiant Dawn begins, it is impossible to appreciate RD completely. So yes, to me RD is the better game to me, also because I like the idea of having a conflict going on and multiple splits and different armies from Chapter to Chapter. But kudos to PoR to introduce Tellius to the audience in a magnificent ways.

The only thing RD really sucks with is how poorly managed are the plot twist. With a bit of epicness, you could remember most of them as some of the best moments in VG's history.

But again, that indicates how serious and down on earth the Tellius series aimed to be. And how FE is perfect in its imperfections. For each entry in the series.

[Rapaille]

Radiant Dawn by a long distance for me.

If I had to summarize fe9 & fe10, then it would be that fe9 has a decent story, good characters & supports, and the 2nd most boring gameplay in the series. meanwhile fe10 has the 2nd worst story in the series, generally good gameplay and a cast of characters that is a mixed bag. The fact is that while I think that story is important, gameplay is way more important. While I'm not the biggest fan of either games, I have quite a few fond memories of fe10 meanwhile I've forgotten most of fe9. 

And while I don't like the story of Radiant dawn, I do like the ideas behind it.

Edited July 28, 2019 by LJwalhout

[Faustino]

Radiant Dawn all the way.

[vanguard333]

Radiant Dawn is more ambitious, but it has some plot issues, and its gameplay, while an improvement in certain areas (ledges) is also worse in others (biorhythm) and even though it has more characters, fewer of them are viable. 

Overall, I think Path of Radiance is better. But both games are two of FE's better games. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by vanguard333

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm definitely on Team Radiant Dawn. Path of Radiance is a decent FE, Radiant Dawn is one of the best.

My uncontroversial reasons for this are its superior gameplay (finally, a Fire Emblem that gives me a reason to use more than 10-12 units out of its large cast), animation skip option, being able to move skills, better polish (things like AS being visible in the status screen or hit/dmg/crit appearing in combat animations). My slightly more contraversial opinion is that its plot is significantly better too: Ike vs Daein was very morally dull, RD having multiple factions made things far more interesting. I also really dislike the last quarter or so of PoR; needing to conquer Crimea after Daein is blatant padding and makes no sense narratively (Ashnard should have been gutted by his own guard the moment it became clear he had no intention of liberating the land of all his soldiers and generals). Both games also have a problem of the plot drivers biasing male to far too great a degree, but PoR has this problem worse (due to lacking Micaiah, mostly).

PoR's biggest advantage is having supports, which certainly does help, although RD's superior info conversations make this less of a total slam-dunk than it should be.

[vanguard333]

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also really dislike the last quarter or so of PoR; needing to conquer Crimea after Daein is blatant padding and makes no sense narratively (Ashnard should have been gutted by his own guard the moment it became clear he had no intention of liberating the land of all his soldiers and generals). 

You've played through Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, and you don't know why that wouldn't happen? Here's just a few big ones:

1. Ashnard, at that point, is ruling pretty much entirely by fear, and he has the means to do so: he's Daein's toughest warrior by far, and he has Rajaion and the medallion. 
2. Most of his army in Crimea consists of his toughest and most fanatically loyal soldiers, including his Four Riders: Bryce is extremely loyal, The Black Knight has his own reasons for sticking around, Bertram is a mindless weapon, and Petrine is terrified of Ashnard. Those four pretty much represent the different attitudes of the Daein Army in Crimea. 
3. Crimea is a stepping stone for his invasion of Gallia. As far as anyone even remotely aware of the plan is concerned, losing Daein doesn't matter as it'll only be temporary once they bring about continent-wide war and free Yune from the Medallion. 
4. Some people genuinely believe in the world Ashnard seeks to create, even if they aren't fully aware of how he plans to achieve it. Sothe pointed out that Ashnard didn't seem like a bad king because he offered the commoners a way out of the slums if they were strong enough.
5. Everyone else is following orders and probably can't get anywhere Ashnard even if they do have their grievances. 
6. Why ride out to fight an enemy that's taken your home fortress when you know the enemy's coming to you and, if they do so, you're the one with the castle. A lot of soldiers probably think he's waiting for them to come to him before he retaliates. 

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 Both games also have a problem of the plot drivers biasing male to far too great a degree, but PoR has this problem worse (due to lacking Micaiah, mostly).

How exactly? Radiant Dawn, sure, as Ike and Micaiah are supposed to be co-protagonists. But, for Path of Radiance, Ike is the sole protagonist, with Elincia acting as deuteragonist. Plus, there are multiple large chunks of the game's plot that is driven forward by female characters. The entire Begnion arc, for example, is driven forward by Empress Sanaki. And that's just one example. 

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

PoR's biggest advantage is having supports, which certainly does help, although RD's superior info conversations make this less of a total slam-dunk than it should be.

Both games handle info conversations well; it isn't something unique to Radiant Dawn. 

[Etrurian emperor]

11 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also really dislike the last quarter or so of PoR; needing to conquer Crimea after Daein is blatant padding and makes no sense narratively (Ashnard should have been gutted by his own guard the moment it became clear he had no intention of liberating the land of all his soldiers and generals).

Personally I think its a rephrasing change of phase. Normally the lord reclaims his conquered country and then invades the villain country to ends the war. Now they try it the other way around and its shown the war isn't over just because Daein fell. It also shows how Ashnard is an unconventional monarch who doesn't really care for nations and how weird this is gets discussed by Daein generals.

I also don't see much need for Daein soldiers to be particularly bothered. Not only would there be a sizable faction who thinks like Bryce and just does as their king tells them but many of the Daein soldiers are also ''way of the warrior'' types who just want a good fight or zealous racists who just wants to kill some sub humans. Ashnard appeals to the later two groups and doesn't even need to do anything to get the loyalty of the first group. 

[Flere210]

Most of the army was in Crimea and it was made by people fiercely loyal, in a cult of personality kind of way, to Ashnard. Knowing he is insane and want as much bloodshed as possible, it makes sense that he keep fighting. Ultimately, as long as enought people are killed he win. What does not make much sense imo is that he eait for you on his throne instead of leading the army againist you personally.

[Dark Holy Elf]

9 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

You've played through Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, and you don't know why that wouldn't happen? Here's just a few big ones:

Yeah, sorry, I don't buy that.

History is full of examples of rulers who ruled through fear, but they always needed the support of their army. It doesn't matter how strong a warrior Ashnard is or that he has a big dragon; he's as vulnerable to a knife in the dark or a Praeteorian Guard-esque coup as anyone else, so I don't want to hear any shonen anime excuses that he was too powerful for this to happen.

Meanwhile, these soldiers and generals and guards are humans, too. Ashnard is insane, but presumably most of them are not. I don't buy that they'd sit idle knowing their loved ones at home are suffering under enemy occupation. The fact that the game doesn't acknowledge this dehumanizes the entire Daein army, which further pushes the game into the "Ike good, Daein bad" zone which is part of why I don't consider the game's plot to be that great in the first place. Heck, they might have been able to sell me on it, but we needed a big, charismatic speech from Ashnard about what his plans were and why his troops should keep heart despite the loss of their homeland. We don't get that, because the writers don't care about the opinions of enemy soldiers.

9 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

How exactly? Radiant Dawn, sure, as Ike and Micaiah are supposed to be co-protagonists. But, for Path of Radiance, Ike is the sole protagonist, with Elincia acting as deuteragonist. Plus, there are multiple large chunks of the game's plot that is driven forward by female characters. The entire Begnion arc, for example, is driven forward by Empress Sanaki. And that's just one example. 

Off the top of my head, here's the (generous) list of PoR characters who move the main plot (rather than having things happen to them, a la Leanne):

Male: Ike, Greil, Soren, Ashnard, Zelgius, Sephiran, Caineghis, Ranulf, Nasir, Tibarn, Naesala, Dheginsea, Reyson

Female: Titania, Elincia, Sanaki, ... maybe Ena?

Remember that big midgame scene where the laguz meet and discuss their plan of action? Remember who was there? Yeah. This isn't even close to parity.

9 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Both games handle info conversations well; it isn't something unique to Radiant Dawn. 

I thought RD's were significantly better on average, but this is obviously just a personal opinion.

[vanguard333]

28 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, sorry, I don't buy that.

History is full of examples of rulers who ruled through fear, but they always needed the support of their army. It doesn't matter how strong a warrior Ashnard is or that he has a big dragon; he's as vulnerable to a knife in the dark or a Praeteorian Guard-esque coup as anyone else, so I don't want to hear any shonen anime excuses that he was too powerful for this to happen.

Meanwhile, these soldiers and generals and guards are humans, too. Ashnard is insane, but presumably most of them are not. I don't buy that they'd sit idle knowing their loved ones at home are suffering under enemy occupation. The fact that the game doesn't acknowledge this dehumanizes the entire Daein army, which further pushes the game into the "Ike good, Daein bad" zone which is part of why I don't consider the game's plot to be that great in the first place. Heck, they might have been able to sell me on it, but we needed a big, charismatic speech from Ashnard about what his plans were and why his troops should keep heart despite the loss of their homeland. We don't get that, because the writers don't care about the opinions of enemy soldiers.

I like how you seem to have only read the part where I mentioned ruling through fear, and not the several other reasons I listed, such as the very second reason I listed which is that the core of his army in Crimea consists of fanatic loyalists, "might makes right" soldiers who got in through strength, people only looking to advance themselves, mindless weapons and people terrified of Ashnard. The Daein Army at that point, as @Flere210 so eloquently put it, has basically become a cult of personality around Ashnard. 

Not only that, but, as @Etrurian emperor pointed out, it's a refreshing change of pace, it illustrates Ashnard's unconventional leadership style as a conqueror who does not care for nations, and how weird it is does get discussed several times, and each time, those generals' reasons for continuing to fight are mentioned and explored. 

A big charismatic speech from Ashnard could've been interesting; it would highlight the cult-of-personality aspect (that is already shown multiple times), it would've been a more effective way for Ashnard to explain his ideology than a battle conversation with Reyson, and it could've been interesting to compare and contrast his speech with Ike's and Elincia's. It is something I would want added in a remake or anime adaptation. But it is not necessary.

 

41 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Off the top of my head, here's the (generous) list of PoR characters who move the main plot (rather than having things happen to them, a la Leanne):

Male: Ike, Greil, Soren, Ashnard, Zelgius, Sephiran, Caineghis, Ranulf, Nasir, Tibarn, Naesala, Dheginsea, Reyson

Female: Titania, Elincia, Sanaki, ... maybe Ena?

Remember that big midgame scene where the laguz meet and discuss their plan of action? Remember who was there? Yeah. This isn't even close to parity.

• Dheginsea doesn't do anything except say no and be the first to refer to the Medallion by name. He is not a plot-driving character in Path of Radiance. 
• Tibarn's only plot-driving moment is talking down Reyson from using the Dirge of Ruin, and that's more reactionary than plot-driving. So, we can scratch him off the list. 
• I would absolutely say Ena counts. She's the one who determines that Elincia's fleeing to Gallia and continues being Petrine's Soren-equivalent for the early part of the game. She then leads the defence of the Daein Capital. 
• Speaking of Petrine, you forgot Petrine: the Daein General that leads the hunt for Elincia and the Greil Mercenaries in the early game; the one that led the army that made the Greil Mercenaries realize they really did find the princess, etc. 
• Perhaps most significantly, you forgot Elena: for the first time ever in an FE game, the protagonist's mother was a named, relevant and plot-driving character; albeit posthumously (but that's true of all of them throughout FE). She's the one that cared for Reyson and Leanne's sister when she had been abducted by Ashnard; she's the one that took the Medallion and fled Daein alongside her husband Greil, she's the reason Greil's even still alive in the first eight chapters of the game, she's the one who taught Ike and Mist the Galdr of Release, and her kindness and compassion had a profound effect on Greil, Ike and Mist. She may be a posthumous character, but she was crucial in driving the plot. 

So, if we look again at the list:

Male: Ike, Greil, Soren, Ashnard, Zelgius, Sephiran, Caineghis, Ranulf, Nasir, Naesala, Reyson. 

Female: Titania, Elincia, Sanaki, Ena, Petrine, Elena. 

11|6; still lopsided, but not nearly as lopsided as you made it seem. 

Plus, why do the numbers have to be 50/50? The number of plot driving characters doesn't have to be 50/50 for both genders to be well-represented. In fact, I'd say that Path of Radiance made at least a few significant steps forward in representation compared to most FE games; especially the FE games that came before it, and even compared to Radiant Dawn.

As I pointed out, for the first time in an FE game (and possibly only time; I'm not far enough in Three Houses to know for certain), the protagonist's mom was a named, relevant and plot-driving character. Princess Elincia plays a huge role and, unlike her closest counterpart (Guinevere), she doesn't stay away from the action. Ike has two main advisors: Titania and Soren, both of whom are extremely relevant. Empress Sanaki plays a very important role. Etc. 

[Flere210]

As i recently watched Gundam, this kinda remind me of the battle of A boua Qu.

At that point Zeon was already almost completely defeated, but soldiers keep fighting because Ghiren built a cult of personality around himself and told them that their shiny new superweapon was totally going to turn the tide of the war. And while he got Assassinated it was not for political reason(or maybe it was, we did not get enought of the Zabi, sadly) and caused the army to fall in disarray.

When you invade Crimea Ashnard still has several "superweapons" in the bag: the medallion, the corrupted laguzs, the four generals as well as himself and his fucking dragon. I can see why the soldiers think they can win even if they are cornered, because Sothe told us that people love Ashnard and the troops in Crimea where his diehard supporters. Sure, it's absurd that they still support him, but we have seen that happening whit real dictators too. Propoganda is an incredibly powerful tool.

[Dark Holy Elf]

5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I like how you seem to have only read the part where I mentioned ruling through fear, and not the several other reasons I listed, such as the very second reason I listed which is that the core of his army in Crimea consists of fanatic loyalists, "might makes right" soldiers who got in through strength, people only looking to advance themselves, mindless weapons and people terrified of Ashnard.

This is the second time you've opened a reply with a somewhat passive-aggressive comment, or at least, that's how I'm reading it. If that's not your intention, than I apolgize for my misinterpretation (it's the internet and reading tone is hard). If it is, kindly knock it off.

I did in fact read your entire post, but didn't feel like making an itemized response to each point. I don't mind addressing specific points if you feel they need to be addressed though.

Dictators have fanatical followers sometimes, for sure. However, there are often limits, things that can test loyalty. Letting your home fall into the hands of the enemy is certainly one such thing! Again, even these "fanatics" are humans with families; are we to believe they are unconcerned with what an occupying army would do to them back in Daein? (As Radiant Dawn shows, it's not pretty!) In fact, I'd argue that Ashnard's cult of personality is built on his peceived strength; does a strong ruler allow another to occupy his nation? Not a chance. In a credible version of PoR's story, Ashnard would have marched right back into Daein to defeat his invaders; even if there are tactical merits to, as per your point 6, letting the Crimean Army come to him instead, his cult of personality is built on him (and the Daein Army in general) being strong enough to defeat them in a straight fight.

Can you imagine that in an alternate version of WW2, the Allies conquered Germany while Hitler still held Poland, and he just holed up there and waited for them to come to him, his entire army loyally accepting this course of action? I can't. But that's basically what PoR wants me to believe will occur. I'm not a historical expert so maybe there's a parallel to Ashnard's actions, but unless you can provide one I'm going to stick with my stance that this plot point is not credible.

 

6 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

So, if we look again at the list:

Male: Ike, Greil, Soren, Ashnard, Zelgius, Sephiran, Caineghis, Ranulf, Nasir, Naesala, Reyson. 

Female: Titania, Elincia, Sanaki, Ena, Petrine, Elena. 

11|6; still lopsided, but not nearly as lopsided as you made it seem. 

We can quibble over who belongs on the list (I don't really think dead characters belong on such a list myself, for instance) but it doesn't matter, because even going by your numbers, we're at around 2:1 which isn't great.

(I don't think RD is perfect about this either, but RD does have Micaiah who is far more important and shows far more agency than any woman in PoR, so it's a step in the right direction.)

[vanguard333]

27 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This is the second time you've opened a reply with a somewhat passive-aggressive comment, or at least, that's how I'm reading it. If that's not your intention, than I apolgize for my misinterpretation (it's the internet and reading tone is hard). If it is, kindly knock it off.

The first time wasn't my intention at all; just a genuine question. The second time, however, I may have been a bit bitter as it seemed like you only listened to the part of my argument you felt you could refute and ignored the rest. I've been in a lot of debates and discussions with people who did stuff like that. I apologize, and I'll stop. 

30 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I did in fact read your entire post, but didn't feel like making an itemized response to each point. I don't mind addressing specific points if you feel they need to be addressed though.

I wouldn't ask for an itemized response; it just seemed like you had only read the first part because your next two paragraphs only mentioned or referred to the "ruled through fear" argument (and only seemed to be arguing against it specifically) and none of the rest. Even something as small as, "As for the rest," would have made things a lot more clear. 

 

33 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Can you imagine that in an alternate version of WW2, the Allies conquered Germany while Hitler still held Poland, and he just holed up there and waited for them to come to him, his entire army loyally accepting this course of action? I can't. But that's basically what PoR wants me to believe will occur. I'm not a historical expert so maybe there's a parallel to Ashnard's actions, but unless you can provide one I'm going to stick with my stance that this plot point is not credible.

Depending on which soldiers were with him in Poland, absolutely, especially if it had seemed like they were winning up until that point (which is exactly what's happening in Path of Radiance as Daein is already moving into Gallia). If the bulk of his army with him in Poland were his SS and his most loyal generals and such, yes. 

I can't think of any historic example of this specific sort of event happening, but there probably is at least one. Other than that, it's not a perfect comparison, but there are a number of cases in history of royalty hiding elsewhere while their homeland was under attack; intending to return. Mary, Queen of Scots was raised in France because Henry VIII of England kept invading Scotland, looking for her. How would Ashnard staying in Crimea be perceived much differently from Marth staying in Talys?

 

45 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Dictators have fanatical followers sometimes, for sure. However, there are often limits, things that can test loyalty. Letting your home fall into the hands of the enemy is certainly one such thing! Again, even these "fanatics" are humans with families; are we to believe they are unconcerned with what an occupying army would do to them back in Daein? (As Radiant Dawn shows, it's not pretty!) In fact, I'd argue that Ashnard's cult of personality is built on his peceived strength; does a strong ruler allow another to occupy his nation? Not a chance. In a credible version of PoR's story, Ashnard would have marched right back into Daein to defeat his invaders; even if there are tactical merits to, as per your point 6, letting the Crimean Army come to him instead, his cult of personality is built on him (and the Daein Army in general) being strong enough to defeat them in a straight fight.

This made me realize something I think we had all just forgotten/discounted: the immediacy with which the Crimean Army moves to retake Crimea after taking Daein. Because of Zelgius' arrival so soon after Daein Keep is retaken, the Crimean Army can move almost immediately to take Crimea; the only stop they make beforehand was the temple Nasir told them to go to. Since Ashnard's troops were already making moves into Gallia when Daein Keep fell, and it takes longer for a preoccupied large army to mobilize than a small army with a single goal (remember how everyone was astonished at how swiftly and decisively the Daein Army was able to march to and attack Melior, and that was when they weren't preoccupied), it may not have seemed to anyone like Ashnard had the time to move his troops to retake Daein. 

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

We can quibble over who belongs on the list (I don't really think dead characters belong on such a list myself, for instance) but it doesn't matter, because even going by your numbers, we're at around 2:1 which isn't great.

(I don't think RD is perfect about this either, but RD does have Micaiah who is far more important and shows far more agency than any woman in PoR, so it's a step in the right direction.)

True, and I even admitted as much. But then I asked why does it have to be 50/50 for both genders to be well-represented, and I then point out several steps forward that Path of Radiance had made that were then diminished or undone by Radiant Dawn:

• In Path of Radiance, Titania and Soren are both equally Ike's two advisors. In Radiant Dawn, Titania gets overshadowed by Soren.
• A lot of focus in Path of Radiance was on Greil and Elena. By Radiant Dawn, how often is Elena mentioned?
• I'd say that, despite Elincia being a deuteragonist in Path of Radiance, she's just as important as Micaiah because of the way Radiant Dawn is split into multiple parts and perspectives. In that case, Elincia has the advantage as she doesn't get overshadowed in Path of Radiance, unlike Micaiah in Radiant Dawn.