Chaz's 5 Reasons Not to Play FE4 (and my reactions to them)

[Von Ithipathachai]

So I watched another interesting video from Choopi Choosi and thought it would be nice to share with you guys.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.  Here are mine, in the spoilers:

Spoiler

• (5) Something we both agree with.  I'm just gonna say I miss the days when we had physical instruction manuals to read.  Those were fun.  I'd probably rather refer to those than an interactive tutorial myself, especially a forced one.  *coughLynModecough*
• (4) I do understand the reasoning behind these items being hidden with zero indication of how to get them, but as something of a completionist I still don't like it.
• (3) I can understand the Pawn Shop system adding strategic importance to inventory and Gold management, but I cannot fathom the idea of it amplifying character individuality.  I feel like only the Holy weapons can manage such a thing in the context of Genealogy of the Holy War.  As for proper Trade undermining its unique mechanics balanced around the Pawn Shop, from what I can tell:  Inheritance, Weapon Repair, limited Armory supply, and the Steal Skill would all be completely fine without it.  Non-consumable stat boosters would suffer a bit, but not if they were nerfed to giving +3 instead of +5.  Non-consumable Skill boosters, equipping after Canto, Lover/Thief Trades, Weapon Kill bonuses and individual Gold supplies should not be a thing at all regardless of the Pawn Shop's presence.  I'll just end this bullet by saying again that "unique" does not necessarily mean "better".  Oh, and Thracia-776 style Trade is the best.
• (2) Holy weapons being super-powerful might still be acceptable if they were all given +5 or even +10 Weight, while Holy Blood growth bonuses could be nerfed slightly.  As for certain imbalances being tied to story (probably why Axes and Fire magic are so bad, for example, but that's something else), that's another issue of better gameplay being sacrificed for better story, which I find as a game designer striving towards pragmatism abhorrent.  You could say that every Fire Emblem game is unbalanced, and while it does suck, most of the time the games still manage to be fun regardless.  But if we, the fans, could manage a Fire Emblem game with superior balancing, it would be even better.  As for the question of whether or not making everyone fully balanced would make the characters and scenario more believable and the game more fun, ...maybe it would weaken the characters and scenario, but it would definitely improve the gameplay experience, which is infinitely more important.  To me at least, all the story needs to do is avoid being offensive (i.e. racist, sexist, etc.); the quality does not matter in the slightest.  Hence why I'll agree to disagree and say that Fates is far superior to Genealogy of the Holy War.
• (1) I guess it just isn't for me, then.  Though I may still give it another try, if only so I can say I've finished it.  I will say free Saving with these giant maps is VERY good.

@NOTchazbc24...  I hope you got @Captain Karnage's permission to use one of his posts in your video.

EDIT: Thread title edited to hopefully be less clickbait-y

Edited June 20, 2019 by Von Ithipathachai

[TheDreamReturns]

Choobi sure knows how to edit.

[Reality]

 Do you have to play Superman 64 firsthand to get credibility in saying that it is bad

Choopi's points

1: Mechanics - I have no problem finding out 1 by 1 what spells with made up language names (ala phantasy star) or rune combination, through force of observation. I think that as a general complaint it is okay because people have different experience with games and may not have wargaming / CRPG backgrounds. I think it is a stronger argument when Fire Emblem specific, since I think one of the core strengths of most Fire Emblem games is the speed of the interface and the high "readability of the game" especially compared to throwing people into SRPGs with obscene skill and class glut, or else tabletop games using a similar combat/movement UI. For me these more complicated games actually create the demand for a game like (most) fire emblem with high readability and "simplified" mechanics.

2: You're overpowered without them? I used to love being a completionist myself so I get why he brings it up, but these days, especially in RPGs, I go for pseudo-effiecency and generally underleveld playthroughs without sweating over them. I think for people with the completionist mindset, it'll probably not help.

3: Extra layer of strategy in exchange for committing to learning an obtuse system >>>><<<<< I've heard this defense from other people and the problem is.... it's still easy to trivialize this new obtuse system and even ignoring it doesn't harm you to the point of "linearity". I really don't see it as justifiying itself by making player expression and creating a wonderful system-level game design... You can look at Jagged Alliance 2 on a system level and see that it is great even though the map/encounter design doesn't match it... I don't think that FE4's system level or map design make me wish to see a game with either "finally" completed. 

4: I get why people argue both ways on this but I just don't see FE as a tactics game in the same proportion to being an RPG so I don't hate it too much over this. I think SRPGs with ALL squishy charather are more fun and interesting. 

5: I played Genealogy untranslated without a guide for the sake of having beaten every game. The brief challenge of brute forcing the options in the castle to find out how to deal with was the most memorable thing. Yes already knowing the power of low-man from having at that point , played 12 other FE games, was a factor, but  I expected and beat down what came a little too accurately considering.

Overall it's okay video for it's humor and his enthusiasm is refreshing and genuine, but I see this as a preaching to the choir kind of video that isn't changing anyone's minds on it.

 

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 hours ago, Reality said:

 Do you have to play Superman 64 firsthand to get credibility in saying that it is bad

If you were genuinely trying to convince people I'd say yes. Or else experience the game in some other way. Not that there's a ton of people in the universe who are aware of the game that need to be convinced it's a bad game given its meme status. But it only proves Choopi Choosi's point that these opinions just sort of get echoed across time and become the game's narrative. Among Fire Emblem games, FE4 is definitely not the most criticized, but probably the most criticized by people who haven't played it. Or have played/seen so little of it that they mis-remember or fail to acknowledge things like how many opportunities you have to save. Thracia may be much less played, but more often I see people concede and say "I don't intend to touch that game". I haven't even gotten to the halfway point of FE4 when I tried playing blind on a bad translation in 2012, and my only opinion I remember having is that it's boring and slow. But it's a pretty poor basis to judge a game on.

As for the video I have to agree though that a lot of these "objective facts" may seem unpersuasive. Many people bring up "there's no tutorial!" because if you speak english and play Fire Emblem then you are used to these games teaching you to play. It's been a feature since FE7. So Choopi's "Hey kids, ever heard of one of these instruction manuals?" isn't much of a mic drop when you consider why people expect to be taught how to play and why they don't have access to a manual in english since they're playing on an emulator. Also if you're going to bring up the manual, maybe demonstrate what sort of info is in there? Not all game manuals are created equal, there were good ones and bad ones. Here's the FE7 manual. Take a guess whether any of these ~50 pages explains the CON system or under what circumstances you double attack

Quote

• SPD: The Unit's speed.
• CON (Constitution): The unit's physical size. The larger this number is, the less effect carrying heavier weapons, magic tomes, and items has in combat.

So even if I had this manual growing up with a loose cart of this game I STILL wouldn't have known how CON works before finding this website. Yeesh. I certainly understood heavier weapons had a harder time doubling after several playthroughs, but I could never size up an enemy unit and tell what their "attack speed" is compared to mine and why Florina gets doubled when I give her a steel lance to help with her 4 strength. Also this description of CON implies items have weight (they don't). And that perhaps if your inventory is too loaded up with stuff you'll have a harder time in combat (also not true, the game only cares about your equipped weapon). But just glancing through it, this game manual seems finely average compared to other manuals I've witnessed.

[Captain Karnage]

Wait, we have a dark mode?

LOL, my salty post is immortalized in vide form

Anyways, I really don't care, were a public forum, I'm kinda flattered he used it

[NOTchazbc24]

11 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

Wait, we have a dark mode?

LOL, my salty post is immortalized in vide form

Anyways, I really don't care, were a public forum, I'm kinda flattered he used it

Glad to hear you're in good spirits about it. I have a feeling Zerk is gonna be not as happy with me throwing his FE4 remake vid under the bus.

I use dark reader for dark mode!

[SubwayBossEmmett]

It was a visually stunning video honestly but I could tell he was severely underselling Sigurd being the god of gen 1. It is a very fair point to bring up how many people can be deployed in FE4 at one point when discussing good and bad units, and making a case for Holy Blood units being narrative integration for the game but still Sigurd is undisputedly so good and can easily solo when everything great falls into his hands.

[NOTchazbc24]

4 minutes ago, SubwayBossEmmett said:

Sigurd is undisputedly so good and can easily solo when everything great falls into his hands.

The sentiment that SIgurd can "Solo" the game is incredibly misleading though. To get through the encounter with Eldigan and then all mages from chapter 4 onwards + not get hit with the sleep staff requires an incredible amount of either RNG manipulation or luck. 

[SubwayBossEmmett]

8 minutes ago, NOTchazbc24 said:

The sentiment that SIgurd can "Solo" the game is incredibly misleading though. To get through the encounter with Eldigan and then all mages from chapter 4 onwards + not get hit with the sleep staff requires an incredible amount of either RNG manipulation or luck. 

When I meant solo I really meant Sigurd doing the bulk of the work with everyone just supporting Sigurd as he takes care of anything remotely threatening. Not a true solo, but Sigurd trivializes so much of the game by existing.

[Lightcosmo]

I can understand not liking a game, but this video is just sad. First off, unit balance Is something no FE has ever achieved 100% of, and never will, accept that or don't play it I guess. I find it fun regardless, much more so than the GBA era. I mean, is Javelin/hand axe emblem much better?

Second, weapon balance, see first part.

Third, unit balance, same as before.

Fourth, growth balance, see the others really.

Summing it up, who cares if it isn't balanced? No Fire Emblem is cause they favor some characters over others and therefore, they get to be better, it's as simple as that. Sure it has flaws, but what FE doesn't? Things like: Cavalier is OP is silly when it's OP in the GBA era as well, what makes it different here? Yes, the hidden events have flaws, but Stefan says hello, so I guess PoR/RD should get absurd hate as well for hidden events. Things like skills are never balanced either, so that's out as well. FE4 isn't as bad as people make it out to be balance wise, in the end they just hold it against the maps being to big, really.

[Florete]

I can understand that the game was designed around the pawn shop system, but I just don't like it. I'd rather they rebalanced the game around not having it.

I also understand his point about holy weapons, but I still think either they could have been toned down a bit or the story could just not hype them up so much. The solution could be not to nerf the weapons in the game, but in the lore.

I do agree with what he says about balance in general, though. No FE is "balanced," they don't need to be and they arguably don't want to be. On the other hand, there can come a point, even in FE, where things are too imbalanced, and FE4 does occasionally cross that line. It's not a good feeling to feel like you have to intentionally hold back in order to use half the cast.

I don't agree at all on his stuff about the giant maps, though. People love to proclaim how it's one big battle happening on multiple fronts and blah blah blah, but most of the time it's not like that at all. Most of the time you have your objective, you complete it, and then the next set of enemies and the next objective shows up, you complete, rinse and repeat. There are occasions where this isn't the case, and those times are definitely the shining moments of the game, but otherwise the chapters don't feel like one big battle, they feel like multiple small battles glued together.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

I can understand not liking a game, but this video is just sad. First off, unit balance Is something no FE has ever achieved 100% of, and never will, accept that or don't play it I guess. I find it fun regardless, much more so than the GBA era. I mean, is Javelin/hand axe emblem much better?

Second, weapon balance, see first part.

Third, unit balance, same as before.

Fourth, growth balance, see the others really.

Summing it up, who cares if it isn't balanced? No Fire Emblem is cause they favor some characters over others and therefore, they get to be better, it's as simple as that. Sure it has flaws, but what FE doesn't? Things like: Cavalier is OP is silly when it's OP in the GBA era as well, what makes it different here? Yes, the hidden events have flaws, but Stefan says hello, so I guess PoR/RD should get absurd hate as well for hidden events. Things like skills are never balanced either, so that's out as well. FE4 isn't as bad as people make it out to be balance wise, in the end they just hold it against the maps being to big, really.

Sure, no FE game is balanced, but Genealogy takes it to extents that are just stupidiculous - look at the weapon weights, for one. Is it really okay that axes and fire magic are mega-heavy relative to the other weapon types? The latter is especially dumb because weight is the only thing that's different between the magic types - and because it essentially means there's no advantage to using fire magic to counter wind magic, because even with WTD, they end up breaking even anyway because fire magic is just that heavy. How in the name of Naga is that okay?! And that's not even getting into how stupidly overpowered the holy weapons are. Or the fact that you get a Silver Sword in the prologue... On a unit who's already great. While Cavalier is a great class in the GBA era, outside of FE6, I didn't feel like I had to go out of my way to use my non-mounted units. On the other hand, you most definitely have to do so here  thanks to maps where it takes like 3 turns before you even start fighting - and the fact that this is a game with a mounted lord and no rescue command just makes things worse. And this is ignoring Pursuit, which is a massive unbalancing gimmick.

TL;DR FE4 crosses the line into being too imbalanced.

[eclipse]

Well, you tried with the title, and I appreciate it.  Maybe indicate that it isn't your video, because the topic title kinda implies that.

For my rough idea of clickbait, find a news aggregator (preferably one that highlights multiple subjects) and read the headlines.

EDIT: I refuse to watch that video on principle.  I'll decide whether or not to play something.

Edited June 20, 2019 by eclipse

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

There might be five reasons against a game, but also ten reasons pro a game.

That said I never did and will do watch that kind of video because it only contents negativism.

I do not even disagree with most of the points (only caught from the text comments) like unbalanced weapon weight and the way how the inventory is executed, but FE4 also offers strong points like best executed weapon triangle, introduction of new staves and weapons and introduction of a very well relationship system.

[Lightcosmo]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sure, no FE game is balanced, but Genealogy takes it to extents that are just stupidiculous - look at the weapon weights, for one. Is it really okay that axes and fire magic are mega-heavy relative to the other weapon types? The latter is especially dumb because weight is the only thing that's different between the magic types - and because it essentially means there's no advantage to using fire magic to counter wind magic, because even with WTD, they end up breaking even anyway because fire magic is just that heavy. How in the name of Naga is that okay?! And that's not even getting into how stupidly overpowered the holy weapons are. Or the fact that you get a Silver Sword in the prologue... On a unit who's already great. While Cavalier is a great class in the GBA era, outside of FE6, I didn't feel like I had to go out of my way to use my non-mounted units. On the other hand, you most definitely have to do so here  thanks to maps where it takes like 3 turns before you even start fighting - and the fact that this is a game with a mounted lord and no rescue command just makes things worse. And this is ignoring Pursuit, which is a massive unbalancing gimmick.

TL;DR FE4 crosses the line into being too imbalanced.

Pretty sure most games are like that, though. Yes, they wanted to solidify that Sigurd is a great unit, so what? Ike gets Ragnell to break the game, especially in RD when it's got part 3 usability. Tyrfing you get for two chapters, not counting using to defeat the boss in the second to last chapter. For that usability, it should be great, otherwise, what's the point? Getting a silver sword in the prologue? A lot of characters start with broken PRF weapons, and besides, doesn't Seth, who's a great unit, start with a silver weapon? Oh and did I mention Seth's an outstanding unit as well? Really, you went out of your way to use Ward or Lot? I certainly didn't, that's for sure. Or Gonzales, perhaps? Everything comes back to the maps... I had no issues training other units in that game, it's not that hard, really! So he's a mounted unit, so what? Would people rather have a lord they don't even want to use, like Roy? To me, that would be pretty dumb. As far as pursuit goes, skill balance... name a game that has 100% fair skills, good luck, cause galeforce says hello, and we all know what people think about that. It's not that hard to find the same holes in the other Fire Emblem games, really. They all have tons of the same awful flaws. Take Echoes, that game has moving dominance as well, and in that game, They also have better base stats on their classes. At least here, dismounts trade for better stat caps, there isn't a trade for high movers in Echoes. I could point out others things, but why bother?  

Edited June 20, 2019 by lightcosmo

[Diffuse]

3 hours ago, Rosalina said:

There might be five reasons against a game, but also ten reasons pro a game.

That said I never did and will do watch that kind of video because it only contents negativism.

I do not even disagree with most of the points (only caught from the text comments) like unbalanced weapon weight and the way how the inventory is executed, but FE4 also offers strong points like best executed weapon triangle, introduction of new staves and weapons and introduction of a very well relationship system.

The video isn't criticising the game at all. It's actually the exact opposite (the title is just clickbait set-up for a joke at the beginning).

Edited June 20, 2019 by Diffuse

[Flere210]

5) this is fair, most game of that age are like that.

4)The problems is some units 100% need the pursuit ring in order to not be shit. Anything else is fine, but that item is too centralizing.

3) and awakening is balanced around reclassing loops. Any competently made game is balanced around it's own mechanics, this does not means that those mechanics were good. Also  90% of the time the arena and thieves cheapen the system anyway. Is more busywork than anything else.

2) the problem is that holy blood is misused. Orlandu is far more op than Sigurd, but he can't break the game as hard as him.At worst, he will solo the last 20% of the game. The holy weapon themselves are better handled with Ced in Thracia, that is god but is not a god with perfect aviability and an horse.

Even Laguz or fates royals are better, especially the latter. The dragon vein are also super useful but give more tactical options instead of just big numbers.And other games being imbalanced does not excuse Genealogy from being even worse. It's like saying that Big Rigs is not a terrible game because Superman 64 sucks too. 

Also, the games being beatable whit negative growths prove exactly that growths does not matter. I consider this the biggest longstanding FE problem togheter with Archers and General being mostly terrible. 

1) the game has an insane amount of time spent doing boring chores even if you ltc. Arena fight for 20+charcters, pawn shop trading, simply walking around for a couple turn before finding a new group of red units. The huge maps are just part if the issue but i sure as hell won't play this game whitout an emulator that can speed up.

Overall, the game sacrifice a lot gameplay for story and lore, and those are not even particoularly good. I can easily name a dozen snes era JRPGs that are better in that department.

 

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Pretty sure most games are like that, though. Yes, they wanted to solidify that Sigurd is a great unit, so what? Ike gets Ragnell to break the game, especially in RD when it's got part 3 usability. Tyrfing you get for two chapters, not counting using to defeat the boss in the second to last chapter. For that usability, it should be great, otherwise, what's the point? Getting a silver sword in the prologue? A lot of characters start with broken PRF weapons, and besides, doesn't Seth, who's a great unit, start with a silver weapon? Oh and did I mention Seth's an outstanding unit as well? Really, you went out of your way to use Ward or Lot? I certainly didn't, that's for sure. Or Gonzales, perhaps? Everything comes back to the maps... I had no issues training other units in that game, it's not that hard, really! So he's a mounted unit, so what? Would people rather have a lord they don't even want to use, like Roy? To me, that would be pretty dumb. As far as pursuit goes, skill balance... name a game that has 100% fair skills, good luck, cause galeforce says hello, and we all know what people think about that. It's not that hard to find the same holes in the other Fire Emblem games, really. They all have tons of the same awful flaws. Take Echoes, that game has moving dominance as well, and in that game, They also have better base stats on their classes. At least here, dismounts trade for better stat caps, there isn't a trade for high movers in Echoes. I could point out others things, but why bother?  

Ike gets Ragnell for all of two chapters in PoR. He's got no ranged weapons otherwise thanks to sword-lock. While he gets it in part 3 of RD, one, he's likely capped by then, and two, it's only for two chapters since you're forced to use the Daein Army again right after the first chapter where he gets to use it. As for starting with broken PRF weapons, the only units that I can think of that come to mind are Ryoma and Xander... both of whom miss at least half the game. Seth starts with a Silver Lance, sure, but it doesn't have 50 uses. Regarding the mention of Ward, Lot and Gonzales, yeah, they require you to go out of your way to use thanks to being in what's likely the biggest Horse Emblem game that isn't Genealogy, and they also have to grapple with accuracy problems thanks to axes having godawful accuracy (the most accurate axes only have 65 accuracy. Except Armads, but that requires you to have S ranked axes). And this is ignoring the fact that all three of them are pretty terrible. WRT skill balance... Galeforce (1) is a level 15 skill, aka most likely not going to be relevant for very long, if at all, and (2) got nerfed in Fates (it requires the user to kill the enemy by themselves). I agree that other FE games have a lot of the same flaws, but it doesn't change the fact that Genealogy is far and away worse about them than the rest. And last I checked, SoV isn't a game where movement is king, like Genealogy is. I could actually get use out of Alm, Celica, and other non-mounted units in SoV. On the other hand, good luck trying to get armors - or any other foot units, for that matter - to contribute in any meaningful fashion in Genealogy. Because I don't see the better stat caps foot units have as being much help when they're left eating the cavalry's dust. Which ties back into my previous comment and that of @Florete about needing to intentionally hold back for their sake.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Von Ithipathachai]

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ike gets Ragnell for all of two chapters in PoR. He's got no ranged weapons otherwise thanks to sword-lock.

Tanith comes with a Sonic Sword in Chapter 18 that he can use in the meantime.  While it's not game-breaking, it's better than nothing.

[Shadow Mir]

16 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Tanith comes with a Sonic Sword in Chapter 18 that he can use in the meantime.  While it's not game-breaking, it's better than nothing.

Well, there's that, but aside from against wyvern riders, he won't do much good with it.

[Von Ithipathachai]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, there's that, but aside from against wyvern riders, he won't do much good with it.

Still, saying he has "no ranged weapons otherwise" is completely false.

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Still, saying he has "no ranged weapons otherwise" is completely false.

Fair enough.

[𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥]

On 6/19/2019 at 9:32 PM, Von Ithipathachai said:

So I watched another interesting video from Choopi Choosi and thought it would be nice to share with you guys.

thanks for sharing, it was indeed interesting and fun to watch. the edits were pretty good as well.

the only downpoint was just the video's title, wich was a bit misleading.

i'm not fond of "forced advices" either, but this was honestly nothing like that, rather the opposite. a different title could have worked better, probably.

On 6/19/2019 at 9:32 PM, Von Ithipathachai said:

I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

i agree with everything the man said. i can tell he knows what he's talking about, and has valid arguments too.

those who played Genealogy back in the 90's did it mainly for the story and the challenges the game offered, but mostly for the satisfaction of getting through the game while learning new things(be them features or tactics) and improve their own gameplay in order to have fun, be it a first run or a replay.

some people may not have liked FE4 due to different reasons(the overall size of the game, the time needed to complete it, whatever comes to mind), or simply because they didn't know how to play it properly(that's the biggest reason probably), but Genealogy isn't a bad game, at all.

i believe part of the blame goes also to the latest titles in the franchise, since they have spoiled the new generations of players with smaller maps, easy modes and other similar crap. sadly, nowdays there's plenty of people that just want to complete games easily because they can't be bothered to "waste their time", so they refuse by default to learn from their mistakes in order to get better at the games they play( and before anyone tries to crucify me for having said that, don't. you're gonna get burned, and hard too, so leave me be ).

long story short: don't listen to haters. play Genealogy and decide for yourself if you like it or not.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Fenreir

[Lightcosmo]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ike gets Ragnell for all of two chapters in PoR. He's got no ranged weapons otherwise thanks to sword-lock. While he gets it in part 3 of RD, one, he's likely capped by then, and two, it's only for two chapters since you're forced to use the Daein Army again right after the first chapter where he gets to use it. As for starting with broken PRF weapons, the only units that I can think of that come to mind are Ryoma and Xander... both of whom miss at least half the game. Seth starts with a Silver Lance, sure, but it doesn't have 50 uses. Regarding the mention of Ward, Lot and Gonzales, yeah, they require you to go out of your way to use thanks to being in what's likely the biggest Horse Emblem game that isn't Genealogy, and they also have to grapple with accuracy problems thanks to axes having godawful accuracy (the most accurate axes only have 65 accuracy. Except Armads, but that requires you to have S ranked axes). And this is ignoring the fact that all three of them are pretty terrible. WRT skill balance... Galeforce (1) is a level 15 skill, aka most likely not going to be relevant for very long, if at all, and (2) got nerfed in Fates (it requires the user to kill the enemy by themselves). I agree that other FE games have a lot of the same flaws, but it doesn't change the fact that Genealogy is far and away worse about them than the rest. And last I checked, SoV isn't a game where movement is king, like Genealogy is. I could actually get use out of Alm, Celica, and other non-mounted units in SoV. On the other hand, good luck trying to get armors - or any other foot units, for that matter - to contribute in any meaningful fashion in Genealogy. Because I don't see the better stat caps foot units have as being much help when they're left eating the cavalry's dust. Which ties back into my previous comment and that of @Florete about needing to intentionally hold back for their sake.

Saying it's the worst doesnt excuse the rest at all. That's just trying to justify that they're poorly designed as well. Do people really think SOV's knights are good compared to dread fighters? I dont. Broken prfs... have you played Thracia? It's got tons of em. Uses doesnt matter I. The silver weapon argument, since what you said was "Sigurd gets a silver sword in the prolouge", which Seth does as well.

[Von Ithipathachai]

20 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Broken prfs... have you played Thracia? It's got tons of em. Uses doesnt matter

He has not played Thracia 776, at least to my knowledge.