How would you make Skill and Luck more useful?

[Lightcosmo]

Just now, Fenreir said:

you could also consider that idea as base concept to build upon, and eventually add an active/passive skill with a very low chance to instantly kill an enemy during a critical attack(much like Lethality, but available only during a critical attack). pretty much like a headshot, if that's even possible to do in SRPG Maker.

or, you could have ranged physical weapons inflict debuffs like poison/bleed in order to deal more damage over time.

This actually sounds pretty awesome, if done this would be super fun to utilize.

[Yexin]

i would make a character's luck growth rate also work as a sort of "in-game value" who allows said character to raise every other stat's growths by a set amout, depending on how much "luck growth" you spent to raise them

it wouldn't be a 1:1 lose-gain thing, of course, or it would be way too OP, but i would make it a 5:1 ratio

let's say you want to raise felix's growths: he has (hypothetically) 60% luck growth, so you could spend 50% of that 60% total to raise every other stat's growths by 50/5=10%

it would be a reversible action, of course

 

as for skill, i'd do quite the same thing, but for random skills such as sol, luna, aether and the likes

you could spend some of a character's skill growth rate to raise his skills' activation chances

this would be reversible too

 

i'm no game designer, so i don't know if my ideas are terrible, too unbalanced or whatever

[Shrimpica]

34 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I'd rather take my chances with a unit who has high Str and low Skl (like Wade)

honestly, i never use units like that. Because they never hit, they only miss. I'd rather use the low damage high hit, as they atleast can work as chip damage dealers and are not totally useless like low SKL guys.

[Flere210]

52 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

honestly, i never use units like that. Because they never hit, they only miss. I'd rather use the low damage high hit, as they atleast can work as chip damage dealers and are not totally useless like low SKL guys.

That's juat being loss averse. In competitive pokemon moves like fire blast are favored over moves like flamethrower because 85% chance of ohko > guaranteed 2hko. There is a chance of missing twice in a row, but ia way less likely than the ohko. Obviosly, this only matter when the stronger attacks give you a ko in fewer hits, and it's not something like 5hko vs 6hko.

For the same reason, power attacking in d&d 3.5 was meta even before people started using shock trooper shenaningans. Even at 50% acxuracy, there is 1/2 chance of getting a ohko and only 1/4 of failing to 2hko. It'a juat that we remember the one time Wade missed 6 hits in a row more.

 

[X-Naut]

Skill is a tricky stat to balance due to affecting major RNG elements, but I do think only 1 point of Hit is too weak. 2 or 1.5 Hit (depending on the stat scaling) would make a stat deficit more profound. From there though, you'd also need to be careful with other accuracy modifiers: if you can easily stack hit bonuses (forging, supports, skills) to have a constant 100% hit rate then what's the point? I also suggest splitting the Avoid between Skill and Speed, the latter carries enough weight through doubling mechanics and of course a more dexterous person would be better at dodging. That said, all this depends on how much you want to allow hit rates to deviate from the weapon's base. Shadow Dragon clearly valued hit rates consistent with the weapons, although exorbitant hit forges throw a wrench in that methodology.

Personally I prefer natural crit rates stay low, they're supposed to be rare without bonuses. Skill/2 is fine as it is, but having it be Skill on Killer weapons would make them more reliable.

I'm of the mind that Luck doesn't need to be on par with the other stats and should be ignored when looking at a units Rating (or whatever you call the stat aggregate). Balance units without Luck in mind and then give them whatever you find appropriate for them. Just make what it does do more profound: full Crit Avoid, multiply it on hidden item find rates, being able to erase Devil backfire chance, you get it. As far as hit rates go, I would drop it to Luck/3 Hit and Avoid and no more than Luck/2. FE4 and GBA Luck giving more Avoid is awful.

Lastly I agree with the general sentiment that crits ought to be nerfed. I also like Florete's suggestion of having Skill add to critical damage, but as a replacement for the critical multiplier; similar to how Jugdral games doubled Attack but less extreme. Might want to tweak the battle forecast in that case to show how much extra damage a crit would add.

[BergelomeuSantos]

I don't know how the ''Bow Damage Calculation'' discussion is going right now, but..

There's also the Disgaea's form of Damage Calculation, which takes Str/2 and Skl/2 for the Bow damage.

However, since Archer's Str isn't...great, I guess we could make something like Str/2 + Skl, this would give them a lot more of damage potential (you heard that, Leonardo?) and (probably) make them into a better class. (I'm going to test this in a actual game and give my verdict later)

Also...I don't recommend using FE10 for Str vs Skl. Hit Rates in that game were pretty ridiculous.

[Shrimpica]

50 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

In competitive pokemon moves like fire blast are favored over moves like flamethrower because 85% chance of ohko > guaranteed 2hko. There is a chance of missing twice in a row, but ia way less likely than the ohko.

unlike Pokemon, FE has perma death and missing an attack could lead to your unit dying and you having to restart a Map. Also, when i used to play competitive Pokemon the 95 attacks were pretty much favoured over the 120 ones. They miss too much and usually lead to a total match loss.

[eclipse]

I thought Luck was useful in New Mystery, where some of the more irritating enemies had a respectable crit rate - and a crit was more-or-less fatal.  While supports existed, you'd have to plan your roster around it, and even then, those characters who had supports may not survive that many attacks.

For Skill, lower all weapon's innate hit rates by 20, and use Fates' RN system.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Flere210 said:

That's juat being loss averse. In competitive pokemon moves like fire blast are favored over moves like flamethrower because 85% chance of ohko > guaranteed 2hko. There is a chance of missing twice in a row, but ia way less likely than the ohko. Obviosly, this only matter when the stronger attacks give you a ko in fewer hits, and it's not something like 5hko vs 6hko.

For the same reason, power attacking in d&d 3.5 was meta even before people started using shock trooper shenaningans. Even at 50% acxuracy, there is 1/2 chance of getting a ohko and only 1/4 of failing to 2hko. It'a juat that we remember the one time Wade missed 6 hits in a row more.

 

The problem is, Fire Emblem has permanent death. This means the cost of a missed attack can be huge, as in causing a restart because you missed and the enemy lived to kill a unit huge. If missing really was no big deal, then Gonzales wouldn't be looked at as a terrible unit... And even in Pokemon, moves like Thunder and Blizzard are just too inaccurate to the point where it's arguably not worth it. This gets even worse when Pressure becomes relevant, because a miss means you used 2 PP to accomplish a fat load of nothing (and most of those power moves only have 8 PP at most). There's a REASON why people complain so much about Stone Edge and Focus Blast, you know...

Edited June 23, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Flere210]

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem is, Fire Emblem has permanent death. This means the cost of a missed attack can be huge, as in causing a restart because you missed and the enemy lived to kill a unit huge. If missing really was no big deal, then Gonzales wouldn't be looked at as a terrible unit... And even in Pokemon, moves like Thunder and Blizzard are just too inaccurate to the point where it's arguably not worth it. This gets even worse when Pressure becomes relevant, because a miss means you used 2 PP to accomplish a fat load of nothing (and most of those power moves only have 8 PP at most). There's a REASON why people complain so much about Stone Edge and Focus Blast, you know...

Exactly because permadeath exist an OHKO is much more valuable than a 2HOKO. It's uncertain doom vs certain doom The reason why gonzales is not worth it is that 1HKO and 3HKO are rare in FE compared to 2HKO, so usually both Gonzalez and a more accurate guy kill the enemy in the same number of hits, negating ginzalez strenght advantage. In general Fire Emblem favor "good enought" stats in everything rather than minmaxing. That's one of the reasons why fighters and myrmidons are often underwhelming.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Flere210

[Shrimpica]

3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Exactly because permadeath exist an OHKO is much more valuable than a 2HOKO

Again, that's if your attack hits to begin with, which is not certain with anything below 90 hot, and anything below 75 will not hit.

4 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

myrmidons are often underwhelming.

in what world?

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

lower all weapon's innate hit rates by 20

so games become unplayable like FE6?

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

so games become unplayable like FE6?

I like how you completely cut out half of what I said, almost as if it was unimportant.

[Shrimpica]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

I like how you completely cut out half of what I said, almost as if it was unimportant.

afaik, Fates above 50hit uses 2RN like FE6, so it doesn't make much difference

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Shrimperor said:

afaik, Fates above 50hit uses 2RN like FE6, so it doesn't make much difference

It does. . .but for that, you'd have to understand the significance of 2RN vs. 1RN, and why that 50% threshold is so very important.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

in what world?

To be fair, outside of Ryoma, (whose case was more due to exclusive factors [i.e. Raijinto] than anything else), I haven't really seen myrmidons and their ilk be amazing in the recent FE games.

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Exactly because permadeath exist an OHKO is much more valuable than a 2HOKO. It's uncertain doom vs certain doom The reason why gonzales is not worth it is that 1HKO and 3HKO are rare in FE compared to 2HKO, so usually both Gonzalez and a more accurate guy kill the enemy in the same number of hits, negating ginzalez strenght advantage. In general Fire Emblem favor "good enought" stats in everything rather than minmaxing. That's one of the reasons why fighters and myrmidons are often underwhelming.

Which only matters if, you know, you can hit. Also, OHKOing everything isn't a good thing - it means that you're liable to kill yourself because you're allowing more enemies to attack you, as opposed to the enemy eventually running out of spaces to attack you from. Anyway, OHKOs are bound to be rare without factoring in massive power gaps and critical hits.

Bold: And because he has shit accuracy.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[X-Naut]

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

afaik, Fates above 50hit uses 2RN like FE6, so it doesn't make much difference

Fates RN actually uses a more complex formula to determine hit above 50%, it generates a similar result but it's a bit less skewed upwards than 2RN. The main difference is Fates RN is 1 RN below 50% hit, which means hit rates below 20% aren't moot. And New Mystery has very high weapon hit rates, although -20 Hit is excessive unless we're talking Lunatic forges.

[Lightcosmo]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem is, Fire Emblem has permanent death. This means the cost of a missed attack can be huge, as in causing a restart because you missed and the enemy lived to kill a unit huge. If missing really was no big deal, then Gonzales wouldn't be looked at as a terrible unit... And even in Pokemon, moves like Thunder and Blizzard are just too inaccurate to the point where it's arguably not worth it. This gets even worse when Pressure becomes relevant, because a miss means you used 2 PP to accomplish a fat load of nothing (and most of those power moves only have 8 PP at most). There's a REASON why people complain so much about Stone Edge and Focus Blast, you know...

Actually Blizzard was broken in gen 1.

 

6 hours ago, eclipse said:

It does. . .but for that, you'd have to understand the significance of 2RN vs. 1RN, and why that 50% threshold is so very important.

What is the difference, I'm curious. I've never thought about it before.

[eclipse]

12 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

What is the difference, I'm curious. I've never thought about it before.

1RN does exactly what the name says.

2RN is similar to 1RN at around 50%.  As you start to deviate from there, the chances of something happening become more pronounced.  In other words, your higher percentages are more likely to hit, while your lower percentage are more likely to miss.

By using Fates' combined RN system, it means that the lower half of the percentage range isn't as likely to miss, while the upper range is more likely to hit.  So let's take a situation where you have a unit that's facing five 30% attacks in a row.  With 1RN, that's a 30% hit.  But with 2RN?  That's a true 18.3% chance to hit.  Now, the odds of dodging all of the attacks are as follows:

1RN: 16.8%
2RN: 36.4%

Notice how the 2RN situation more than doubles the odds of dodging everything?

WRT to FE6's crappy hit rates, it meant that your lower hit rates were more likely to miss, which is doubly infuriating, given that the enemy in question was on a tile that gave a ton of defense and health regeneration.

Then there's RN generation, but that's another can of worms entirely.

[Von Ithipathachai]

28 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

What is the difference, I'm curious. I've never thought about it before.

Read this: https://serenesforest.net/general/true-hit/

Basically, double-RNG lies to you about your hit rates; to make a long story short, it makes high hit rates hit more often than they should and low hit rates miss more often than they should.

What Fates RNG does is use single-RNG for displayed hit below 50 and double-RNG for displayed hit at or above 50 so that high hit rates hit more often than they should and low hit rates hit with the normal frequency.  Making evasion in Fates more unreliable than it's ever been.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Von Ithipathachai

[Lightcosmo]

28 minutes ago, eclipse said:

1RN does exactly what the name says.

2RN is similar to 1RN at around 50%.  As you start to deviate from there, the chances of something happening become more pronounced.  In other words, your higher percentages are more likely to hit, while your lower percentage are more likely to miss.

By using Fates' combined RN system, it means that the lower half of the percentage range isn't as likely to miss, while the upper range is more likely to hit.  So let's take a situation where you have a unit that's facing five 30% attacks in a row.  With 1RN, that's a 30% hit.  But with 2RN?  That's a true 18.3% chance to hit.  Now, the odds of dodging all of the attacks are as follows:

1RN: 16.8%
2RN: 36.4%

Notice how the 2RN situation more than doubles the odds of dodging everything?

WRT to FE6's crappy hit rates, it meant that your lower hit rates were more likely to miss, which is doubly infuriating, given that the enemy in question was on a tile that gave a ton of defense and health regeneration.

Then there's RN generation, but that's another can of worms entirely.

Ah, so that's why you always miss in FE4/5, then! Or am I wrong on this?

 

25 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Read this: https://serenesforest.net/general/true-hit/

Basically, double-RNG lies to you about your hit rates; to make a long story short, it makes high hit rates hit more often than they should and low hit rates miss more often than they should.

What Fates RNG does is use single-RNG for displayed hit below 50 and double-RNG for displayed hit at or above 50 so that high hit rates hit more often than they should and low hit rates hit with the normal frequency.  Making evasion in Fates more unreliable than it's ever been.

So which is worse, then? Or is that so the enemies, since they have more units, have less of an edge on the dodging, hitting, etc? Thanks for this, by the way! Also, what makes RD different from the rest?

Edited June 24, 2019 by lightcosmo

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

WRT to FE6's crappy hit rates, it meant that your lower hit rates were more likely to miss, which is doubly infuriating, given that the enemy in question was on a tile that gave a ton of defense and health regeneration.

 

Ah ze FE6 Gate/Throne! Even more of a headache than FE5's +10 Def monstrosities, since 1RN there actually helps you land those Hammer hits, even if it exposes Asbel to actually getting hit twice by a Meisterlanze/axt later on.

 

1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

So which is worse, then? Or is that so the enemies, since they have more units, have less of an edge on the dodging, hitting, etc?

FE6-13's Two RNs is generally better for the player. The player has an easier time of getting high Avoid and Hit than the enemy does. Very dodgy enemies in FE6 are generally only those on thrones or other thick terrain and those in Sacae, FE7 has even less. On the other hand, Rutger, Raven, and Tellius Earth Affinity supporters have few issues emerging untouched and slaughtering everything on the enemy phase.

 

9 hours ago, eclipse said:

I thought Luck was useful in New Mystery, where some of the more irritating enemies had a respectable crit rate - and a crit was more-or-less fatal.  While supports existed, you'd have to plan your roster around it, and even then, those characters who had supports may not survive that many attacks.

Although I'm also aware this is the game where low Luck can be a tool pros use to finely bait enemies via their liking for anyone with a 2% chance or greater of critting.

 

8 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

in what world?

Always is an absolute, so not an ideal word on their part. In the history of Myrmidons since their invention and full separation from the Mercenary as an unpromoted sword class...

• FE6- Good due to low hit rates making those of Swords and high Skill necessary, nice doubling, and +30 Crit bonus on promotion. Rutger is a bosskilling clutch due to ridiculous Throne bonuses. But Dieck is still good and Hand Axes are fine later on when enemy composition becomes more Lance than Axe. Fighters and would be Berserkers unfortunately share a limited promotion item with Myrms and Mercs. And by the time Lances overtake Axes in enemy composition, it's far enough into the game that you'll likely have benched most or all unpromoted Axe users and will just be using Pallies, Heroes and prepromotes that come with Axes for that category.
• FE7- Bad game for Myrmidons, the Crit bonus was nerfed, enemies have no Luck this time, hit rates went up, enemies and thrones got weaker. Javelins and Hand Axes dominate FE7 and its strong but not overwhelming enemy phase against countless weaklings, Swords and thus Myrms lack an equivalent. The two unpromoted Fighters aren't very good either, but Axes are good (Lances being best) and Geitz, Hawkeye, the Heroes, and Pallies all use them very well.
• FE8- Same as FE7 pretty much. Myrms have overkill Skill and 1-2 range dominates. Fighters are still eh, but Great Knights and Gerik still destroy.
• FE9- Wt is no longer an issue, the enemy phase remains big, Axes are even better and Myrms/Swordmasters get slightly worse, even if their concrete durability has increased a little. Boyd is a rival footie who is better, and Nephenee adds a Lance footie rival as well.
• FE10- Not as good as FE6, but oh, they got a lot better with the introduction of the Wind Edge, since it gives them precious 1-2 range. That is an equalizer that allows them to melt legions of enemies on the enemy phase via dodgetanking and for once not leave behind some Archers, Mages, and Javelins & Hand Axes.
• FE11- Dodgetanking doesn't exist, and this class is bad on the lower difficulties, but auto C Swords and high Speed enemies on the higher difficulties make SMs good there. Also helping is low enemy density severely reducing the importance of the enemy phase where they weren't the strongest.
• FE12- Similar to FE11, but even better/needed on the harder modes. A minor +10 Avoid boost helps in crucial dodges in some Lunatic situations from what I am aware.
• FE13- Enemy Phase the Game Until You Grind Into the Moon for Galeforce on Everyone. Ragnell requires Infinite Regalia for copies and Armsthrift for sanity. Levin Sword requires a high Magic stat- but then why not just be a Sage/Sorcerer? Swordmasters are terrible here due to lacking easily obtainable 1-2 range, they don't even have a Crit or Avoid bonus to call on, even if they can dodgetank again.
• FE14- Well 1-2 range from physical weapons was nerfed beyond the big brothers, and really really strong Shuriken users. Dodgetanking got nerfed too. But they don't generally exist on CQ, and can't really be compared much with Mercs. They're not bad, but not exactly good either, and if anything a little on the weaker side.

 

6 hours ago, X-Naut said:

Fates RN actually uses a more complex formula to determine hit above 50%, it generates a similar result but it's a bit less skewed upwards than 2RN.

How much less so? Maximum skewing I'm aware comes at 75 Displayed Hit for 6-13, when the actual rate is 12.5% above what is shown. So it's smaller than that?

 

I'm totally fine with FE staying back with 1RN, that it ever lied to players in the first place seems a bit wrong. And having gone through SoV and 3-5, I'm already adjusted to it. If situations are a little too hairy for 1RN, but the fighting in these situations are intended and not the result of the player being reckless (e.g. Shannan's joining moment in FE4), then tone down those situations, not the Hit formula.

I'm also fine with changing crits to 2x damage and adding a skill to increase it.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Actually Blizzard was broken in gen 1.

Well, there's that, but that's the exception, not the rule.

 

54 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

• FE10- Not as good as FE6, but oh, they got a lot better with the introduction of the Wind Edge, since it gives them precious 1-2 range. That is an equalizer that allows them to melt legions of enemies on the enemy phase via dodgetanking and for once not leave behind some Archers, Mages, and Javelins & Hand Axes.

Even then, they still lag behind javelin and hand axe users since wind edges aren't forgeable, unlike javelins and hand axes. Which means ranged units that attack them are liable to survive anyhow (barring getting lucky with critical hits, which is not a good strategy here since enemies actually have luck stats)...

Edited June 24, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Ah, so that's why you always miss in FE4/5, then! Or am I wrong on this?

Since your higher hit rates are reliant on 1RN, it means that you're not as likely to hit as in a 2RN game.  80% really means "you'll miss this one time out of five".

[Lightcosmo]

8 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

FE6-13's Two RNs is generally better for the player. The player has an easier time of getting high Avoid and Hit than the enemy does. Very dodgy enemies in FE6 are generally only those on thrones or other thick terrain and those in Sacae, FE7 has even less. On the other hand, Rutger, Raven, and Tellius Earth Affinity supporters have few issues emerging untouched and slaughtering everything on the enemy phase.

If this is true, then RD really just doesn't seem to like me, I've has absurd circumstances of being hit/dodging/critting in that game.

 

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, there's that, but that's the exception, not the rule.

This is true, but with the right compensation i.e. 30% freeze chance combined with never being able to thaw out, you have a broken move right there also, I think it's accuracy is 80% in R/B/Y rather than 70%? Not sure though.

 

6 hours ago, eclipse said:

Since your higher hit rates are reliant on 1RN, it means that you're not as likely to hit as in a 2RN game.  80% really means "you'll miss this one time out of five".

I believe you, but i'm still questioning rather it favors the player, haha.

[Jotari]

21 hours ago, Flere210 said:

That's juat being loss averse. In competitive pokemon moves like fire blast are favored over moves like flamethrower because 85% chance of ohko > guaranteed 2hko. There is a chance of missing twice in a row, but ia way less likely than the ohko. Obviosly, this only matter when the stronger attacks give you a ko in fewer hits, and it's not something like 5hko vs 6hko.

For the same reason, power attacking in d&d 3.5 was meta even before people started using shock trooper shenaningans. Even at 50% acxuracy, there is 1/2 chance of getting a ohko and only 1/4 of failing to 2hko. It'a juat that we remember the one time Wade missed 6 hits in a row more.

 

Really? That's a big change from when I was into pokemon. When I played people preached accuracy over power almost all the time. As a single miss in Pokemon can screw over your entire battle. Reducing RNG is even more critical in competitive pokemon than Fire Emblem, that's why all the tourney rules attempt to remove things that are overly rng based like Sleep and accuracy/evasion altering set ups.