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How would you make Skill and Luck more useful?


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The question posed in the title is based on the idea that Skill and Luck are among the worst stats you could specialize in as a unit (as opposed to Str/Mag, Spd, Def, Res, or even HP).  In general a point of Skill only gives you like 2 points of Hit and half a point of Critical, which feels a bit underwhelming because unless you're an Axe user you generally don't need a lot of Skill to have good hit rates, as the bulk of your Hit comes from your equipped weapon.  Meanwhile, a point of Luck only gives you half a point each of Hit and Avoid and a point of Dodge, which is usually highly situational at best and unnoticeable at worst.

Personally I'm experimenting with the idea of going back to how the early games calculated Critical in which a point of Skill equals a point of Critical instead of half a point, albeit with Critical Hits only inflicting double damage instead of triple.  That is, units with overkill Skill who are deficient in Str/Mag (such as Archers) could more reliably get Critical Hits to help out their underwhelming attack power.  In addition, the generally higher likelihood of Critical Hits would encourage players to take Luck more seriously than I think they might normally.

Do any of you have ideas for addressing this issue, if you think it's an issue at all?

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I thought luck was pretty good in SoV? i'm not 100% sure, but I think it affects avo, crit avo, magic avo, and crit%. Skill, I'm not sure on, I kinda like it the way it is, if skills are in the equation, if not.... well, maybe making critical's raise strength based on your skill stat instead of power? Skills are assumed, right? or are we talking old school?

Edited by lightcosmo
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1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

I thought luck was pretty good in SoV? i'm not 100% sure, but I think it affects avo, crit avo, magic avo, and crit%. Skill, I'm not sure on, I kinda like it the way it is, if skills are in the equation, if not.... well, maybe making critical's raise strength based on your skill stat instead of power? Skills are assumed, right? or are we talking old school?

This is meant to be in general and not for a particular game.  Though this is technically assuming GBA calculations.  *shrug*  Skills may or may not be a thing.

Really, I'd prefer to refer to the Skill stat as Dexterity now to avoid confusion, but almost nobody else seems to have fully adopted it yet.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting to have Critical Hits raise the user's Str/Mag directly and not their Attack?

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2 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

This is meant to be in general and not for a particular game.  Though this is technically assuming GBA calculations.  *shrug*  Skills may or may not be a thing.

Really, I'd prefer to refer to the Skill stat as Dexterity now to avoid confusion, but almost nobody else seems to have fully adopted it yet.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting to have Critical Hits raise the user's Str/Mag directly and not their Attack?

Well, Crit's triple damage right now, i'd say, make the multiplier up to x3 at most for every 10 skill points or so, game pending of course, since the stat standard across the board is different. But since skill affects hit, and a critical hit to me would be striking a weak spot, etc which would take SKILL obviously, skill should affect is somehow. I'm not sure how it would work, but it sounded better in my head, haha.

Edited by lightcosmo
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An idea I had in the past for Luck, taking the name rather literally, is to make every level up have a Luck% chance to re-roll any failed growths. So if a unit has 30 luck and on a level they miss HP and Str, they have a 30% chance to roll the HP and Str growths again and potentially get a +1.

Skl can add 1 to crit for every point and also add into the damage multiplier on critical hits. For example, maybe half the unit's Skl is added to their critical damage on top of whatever the normal critical damage would be.

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I think skill is only as useful as the enemies are difficult, I mean, if they're easy to hit like FE8, why do you need skill? So that ones hard, but Luck, I think SoV did a decent job, better than most anyways. But maybe, if you have more luck than your opponent does skill, no chance to get crits at all? even with Killing edge or something, it would still be none. I'm not sure, maybe that's to harsh.

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2 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I think skill is only as useful as the enemies are difficult, I mean, if they're easy to hit like FE8, why do you need skill? So that ones hard, but Luck, I think SoV did a decent job, better than most anyways. But maybe, if you have more luck than your opponent does skill, no chance to get crits at all? even with Killing edge or something, it would still be none. I'm not sure, maybe that's to harsh.

Something else I thought of was rounding all Hit and Critical chances down to multiples of 5, i.e. the possible Critical chances would be 0, 5, 10, etc.  This is mainly to prevent annoying deaths from 1% or 2% Critical Hits.

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Sorry, it seems like most of my ideas have been covered already:

-2° Chance for Growths (Lck%)

-Lck also helping in Critical Hits (Like more tradicional RPG's)

-Skl/Dex giving 1 point to Critical Hits (instead of 0.5)

-Lck x 2 = Dodge (This would be specially good in a game where 30 Skl + 30 Crit-Weapon = 60 Critical Chance, making this the only way to null the critical hit)

-Skl/Dex and Lck helping in Skill Activation (I feel like Skl + Lck/2 is the best way for something like this, but it can vary from Skill to Skill)

-Might add some others in a next post or something like that.

----------------------

Do you have a specific motive for this question? (I mean: it's for one of your projects?) (I'm just curious, no need to actually give me a actual explanation)

Also, sorry for not participating so much in Serenes Emblem. Especially for that ''I'll make this portrait in one day!''.

 

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reducing the hit rates of weapons well also increasing the hit rates of enemies could be a fairly simple fix it for giving skill more importance at least.

if one wanted to do it in a more casual sense though how about having skill and lck slightly increase might as well (ie, you hit their vitals more easily through either sheer luck or pure skill) which would make sense to a degree, give those stats more importance.

there is also the possibility of simply altering the calculations in the game to make it so that luck and skill are more important to critical hit rate and hit rates then the weapons inherent qualities in those regards.

and of course the simplest fix of all, increase enemy dodge rates which would make skill a lot more useful.

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Skill: i'd make it a requirement to learn skills, and have many skill scales if that stat reach certain thesholds.

Luck: i'd make it actual Luck and have it increase everything than can be expressed by dicerolls by a small amount. Something like this: 1% hit, 1%avoid,0,5% crit, 0,5% crit avoid, 0,5 proc rate of any skill that proc, 1% growth rates of all stats, x% anything i forgot. 

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5 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

The question posed in the title is based on the idea that Skill and Luck are among the worst stats you could specialize in as a unit (as opposed to Str/Mag, Spd, Def, Res, or even HP).  In general a point of Skill only gives you like 2 points of Hit and half a point of Critical, which feels a bit underwhelming because unless you're an Axe user you generally don't need a lot of Skill to have good hit rates, as the bulk of your Hit comes from your equipped weapon.  Meanwhile, a point of Luck only gives you half a point each of Hit and Avoid and a point of Dodge, which is usually highly situational at best and unnoticeable at worst.

Personally I'm experimenting with the idea of going back to how the early games calculated Critical in which a point of Skill equals a point of Critical instead of half a point, albeit with Critical Hits only inflicting double damage instead of triple.  That is, units with overkill Skill who are deficient in Str/Mag (such as Archers) could more reliably get Critical Hits to help out their underwhelming attack power.  In addition, the generally higher likelihood of Critical Hits would encourage players to take Luck more seriously than I think they might normally.

Do any of you have ideas for addressing this issue, if you think it's an issue at all?

why am i reading this in Chaz voice? damn youtube...

i guess it depends on the kind of game mechanics. in games with active skills, the skill stat itself does matter if there's an activation formula based on it(i'm talking about activation rates of Sol, Luna, etc). same goes for Miracle with luck. in some games, luck also factored into lowering the enemy critical chances, so it had more than one role.

stats should be also balanced in comparison with their caps, because if you're having maxed stats of 20 points each, you'll have a more compact build to deal with, while if you're dealing with caps of 40 points and beyond, you'll need to be careful with balancing in order to not screw the game.

i'd say if you're going for the low stats caps(20), then you could use full points instead of half ones. if it's beyond 20, then the other way around would be better. at least, that's how i see it.

making criticals deal double damage rather than triple would be more balanced as well, since it would overall lower the chances of your weaker units to get oneshotted in case of bad rng. it would also give more value to battle formations and strategic deployment of each unit on the field, since there would be lowered critical damage making battles last longer.

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8 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Something else I thought of was rounding all Hit and Critical chances down to multiples of 5, i.e. the possible Critical chances would be 0, 5, 10, etc.  This is mainly to prevent annoying deaths from 1% or 2% Critical Hits.

That sounds like a neat idea, but I think changing the x3 damage modifier would be a good start, as that's way to high of a number, like others have said. Not sure how you would fix it, but changing the fact that skill gives two points of accuracy for every one skill point? So then, once you get enough skill normally, it's pretty much a waste because you don't need much more to max hit on the enemies. Skill could always also effect weapon usage, kinda like mastery in TRS but tied to the skill stat instead. More skill means able to fight with better weapons, I think?

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9 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

if you think it's an issue at all?

When it comes to Skill, no, it's not an issue. Skill is already pretty damn important, and low SKL units are just useless blind unit that can and will be benched. SKL also usually affects Skill activation, so there's that.

For Luck however it could be a buffed a bit, but honestly, i have no idea how.

 

7 hours ago, NobodiePichu said:

reducing the hit rates of weapons

then we get a FE6 situation, nty.

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For hit, I think going to 3x skill for hit and reducing weapon hit to compensate could be an encouragement to skill, alongside the increase to crit and what I'd call the Hit-Crit Overflow, where if you have over 100 hit it'll add on to your crit percentage (what rate we could debate). Maybe it could be tied into improving weapon levels, but I'm not sure how much I want to be messing with that and how to adequately do so.

Luck.... I feel like it should be a general influencer, like adding onto all the other calcs and its biggest number being for Dodge (WHY'S IT LESS THAN 1% FOR EACH POINT OF LUCK?). Maybe for chances on rerolls too, I don't disagree with the idea.

That idea of stats having a separate effect for these stats should be explored as well imo: Strength against weapon weight (not necessarily the only factor), Magic affecting something like staff hit rate or the damage taken from hazardous environments/healing from healing tiles (Stretching a lot here), Speed on doubling and as for Def/Res...... I honestly wonder what you could do with it.

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Raise the luck cap higher than the self-harm formula for the devil axe by one point, bring it back, and then voila. You get enough luck that the thing won't backfire and it goes from being a risky weapon to a pretty great one.... for anyone with capped luck.

Endgame is ruined.

I know, it's not the most balanced solution, but I just want an excuse to bring in the devil axe again... in a non-remake. Seriously, last time we saw it outsider of remakes was Sacred Stones. What's up with that?

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8 hours ago, BergelomeuSantos said:

Do you have a specific motive for this question? (I mean: it's for one of your projects?) (I'm just curious, no need to actually give me a actual explanation)

I am trying it out for Sanctaea Chronicles right now, yes.

One other crazy idea I had for the Skill stat is giving Bows (along with Crossbows and/or Firearms if those are a thing) fixed hit rates and having them calculate your damage input using your Skl instead of your Str.  Because with ranged weapons like those your ability to land killing strikes is going to be more dependent on your ability to hit certain vital areas than on your own physical strength, if that makes sense at all.

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36 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

When it comes to Skill, no, it's not an issue. Skill is already pretty damn important, and low SKL units are just useless blind unit that can and will be benched. SKL also usually affects Skill activation, so there's that.

Well, I think Leonardo from RD would disagree, he's got great SKL... and he hits the bench pretty hard. It's certainly not a defining stat like strength is. You can't beat an enemy with just skill if you deal no damage, unlike strength which you can rely on a lot more since it's pretty much a necessary stat.

 

14 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I am trying it out for Sanctaea Chronicles right now, yes.

One other crazy idea I had for the Skill stat is giving Bows (along with Crossbows and/or Firearms if those are a thing) fixed hit rates and having them calculate your damage input using your Skl instead of your Str.  Because with ranged weapons like those your ability to land killing strikes is going to be more dependent on your ability to hit certain vital areas than on your own physical strength, if that makes sense at all.

This would be cool if you swapped weapon weight to strength and then damage to skill for archers. I mean, you have to be strong to pull a bow string back, right?

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1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

This would be cool if you swapped weapon weight to strength and then damage to skill for archers. I mean, you have to be strong to pull a bow string back, right?

True, but I would rather not do this if only because I dislike Tellius's Str = Con system for AS calculation.

The issue is that by lategame most of your units will have enough Str to only be weighed down by a select few weapons (if any at all), at which point you might as well just use AS = Spd - Wt.  Unless you also change the weight progression from Iron to Silver so that Iron < Steel < Silver and not Iron < Silver < Steel.

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6 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

While True, Str is useless if you can't hit anything you see. 

Yeah but to a degree, weapon accuracy can carry str a lot more than the other way around, since game pending, most weapons have 70 or more hit rates, and the enemies avo is usually... 10 or so? I feel like this is the Boyd/Rolf argument haha.

 

5 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

True, but I would rather not do this if only because I dislike Tellius's Str = Con system for AS calculation.

The issue is that by lategame most of your units will have enough Str to only be weighed down by a select few weapons (if any at all), at which point you might as well just use AS = Spd - Wt.  Unless you also change the weight progression from Iron to Silver so that Iron < Steel < Silver and not Iron < Silver < Steel.

Oh, right I forgot about that! Yeah, that system works for early game, your right. maybe more strength for an archer could pierce some defense then, like 10% or so. if your going for something unique, I guess that sounds fun. and considering archers attacking limitation, it wouldn't be that unfair. Of course, it wouldn't work 100%, but you get the general idea, I think. You could also make it so you can only do it while attacking, and not countering.

Edited by lightcosmo
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2 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Oscar is the clear winner tbh.

Yeah, he really is.  Tellius mounts are too stronk.

But seriously, I'd rather take my chances with a unit who has high Str and low Skl (like Wade) who has a low chance to hit and do noticeable damage than a unit with low Str and high Skl (like Wolt) who has a high chance to hit and barely do any damage at all.

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39 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I am trying it out for Sanctaea Chronicles right now, yes.

One other crazy idea I had for the Skill stat is giving Bows (along with Crossbows and/or Firearms if those are a thing) fixed hit rates and having them calculate your damage input using your Skl instead of your Str.  Because with ranged weapons like those your ability to land killing strikes is going to be more dependent on your ability to hit certain vital areas than on your own physical strength, if that makes sense at all.

i'd rather keep the same hit rate formula for all classes. while it's true that hitting vital areas could trigger critical hits, you always need to aim first.

you could eventually try to round down all hit/evade/critical chances to fixed caps in order to have more reliable results.

example: if a unit has the same skill(let's say 20) of an opponent's speed, hit ratio will be 100%. otherwise, if it will have 16 skill, the hit rate will be 80%. if it will have 24 skill, 120%, and so on.

same could be applied with luck against skill/critical chance in the opposite way(same stats value = 0% chance to receive a critical hit from the defender side), unless you want luck to boost only hit and evade further.

15 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

maybe more strength for an archer could pierce some defense then, like 10% or so. considering archers attacking limitation, it wouldn't be that unfair. Of course, it wouldn't work 100%, but you get the general idea, I think. You could also make it so you can only do it while attacking, and not countering

you could also consider that idea as base concept to build upon, and eventually add an active/passive skill with a very low chance to instantly kill an enemy during a critical attack(similar to Lethality, but available only during a critical attack). pretty much like a headshot, if that's even possible to do in SRPG Maker.

or, you could have ranged physical weapons inflict debuffs like poison/bleed in order to deal more damage over time.

Edited by Fenreir
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I agree with the OP that reducing Crit damage *2 times damage would be really useful. It's something I've called for for awhile now. As it stands crits are so powerful that they're basically nonexistant among enemies. Crit chances should be higher with less damage so they're something you can reasonably expect without ruining you're day. If crits were something that you expect to happen rather than something that happens once in a blue moon, then a high luck unit that can avoid them is a major boon (and for those who still want to have the awesome satisfying feeling of crits for players, than a simple skill that increases the damage like the Fates Killing Edge would solve that for your dedicated criters).

But to throw out an original idea, I think it'd be kind of cool if all units had innate Armsthrift (although not with luck*2, maybe even luck/2). This could encourage high luck units to use stronger weapons that players would otherwise naturally hoard. Or I guess in general I'm suggesting more good skills that use luck as a factor.

As for skill, if that could play some roll in weapon rank growth it'd make a lot of sense and be a major boon. Though this might mean slower weapon rank growth over all which players might find tedious. Eh, there's probably a happy medium in there somewhere.

43 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I am trying it out for Sanctaea Chronicles right now, yes.

One other crazy idea I had for the Skill stat is giving Bows (along with Crossbows and/or Firearms if those are a thing) fixed hit rates and having them calculate your damage input using your Skl instead of your Str.  Because with ranged weapons like those your ability to land killing strikes is going to be more dependent on your ability to hit certain vital areas than on your own physical strength, if that makes sense at all.

I've considered this before for crossbows, but I don't think it really makes much sense for bows. You need a lot of strength to use a bow well. Maybe instead bows could work in reverse to other weapons. That is to say skill determines damage and strength determines accuracy. The idea that two people are going to have the exact same accuracy with a bow because it has fixed hit rates is really weird.

Edited by Jotari
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