Jump to content
CannedCaineghis

side bee (Lute) v. CannedCaineghis (Garcia)

Recommended Posts

Thanks for the invite side bee looking forward to a vigorous debate! ­čśâ

Story (main and support insights): Garcia made a grave mistake in his life. Focusing on his career. He was a top commander of Renais, but when his wife Riza died, he adopted a singular focus in life. Protecting and being with his only family left Ross. To that goals end he's convinced by his son to support Eirika's army (and later on possibly Ephraim's depending on route). It's shown in supports between Garcia and Seth that Garcia doesn't regret his life in service to Renais despite his actions showing him to turn from that path after his wife passed showing Garcia as a man of quite confidence that's now fulfilled by his purpose. Another support (Dozla and Garcia) implies that Garcia has some (at least minor) magical ability (though perhaps this support is implying anyone could?) and that he's willing to try any discipline at least once. Last but not least, his support with his son Ross shows him to be a devoted and cautious father, more than many can say in FE.

Combat: Garcia is locked to axes for many a year, however if there is a physical weapon type to be locked to axes are probably the best one thanks to the inexpensive nature of hand axes giving Garcia nearly perpetual 1-2 range. Garcia unfortunately has poor speed and luck, but makes up for this with nearly every other stat save Res (but very few physical combat units have amazing Res). He's able to hit fairly hard compared to everyone but Seth at base, but is unlikely to double, this can be remedied somewhat by giving a speedwings or a promotion to hero (or both) however in the long run of FE8 he'll just double naturally after little time in either promotion with no stat booster basically.  

Bases (keeping in mind Garcia starts at level 4 and Lute starts at level 1):

Garcia compared to Lute

HP:  +11

Str:  +2

Skl: +1

Spd: +0

Lck: -5

Def: +2

Res: -5

(Better in 4 categories, worse in 2 and tied in 1)

Bases (if we let Lute average up to level 4 and Garcia still hasn't leveled)

Garcia compared to level 4 Lute

HP:  +9.65

Str: +.05

Skl: +.1

Spd: -1.35

Lck: -6.35

Def: +1.55

Res: -5.2

(Better in 4 categories still, worse in 3)

It's clear that Garcia wins in the "bases" department. 

Growth Rates:

Garcia compared to Lute

HP: +35%

Str: +0%

Skl: +10%

Spd: -25%

Lck: +0

Def: +10%

Res: -25%

(Three higher growths, two equal growths and two lesser growths) - Point Garcia for Growths. 

Now lets look at both Lute and Garcia at the earliest they could promote level 10:

Garcia compared to Lute

HP: +11.75

Str: +.05

Skl: +.7

Spd: -2.85

Lck: -6.65

Def: +2.15

Res: -6.7

(4 better stats, 3 worse stats) - Point Garcia if we're playing efficiently and don't have the luxury of waiting 10 more levels to promote. However, even if we were this trend would hold true given Garcia's superior or equal growths in the same 4 stats. 

Lastly let's talk about utility and affordability:
What went unmentioned in base stats were the con and aid stats which Garcia overwhelming has more of so he could rescue drop more units than Lute could; though would be able to be rescue dropped by less (although that's far less important than being able to rescue drop to begin with in any efficient play through).  His higher defense and and more importantly HP imply that he could more reliably used as a wall (with or without a weapon) as RNG mitigation is the name of the game in FE, if I make the assumption *every* attack will hit then Garcia is a superior wall than Lute could ever hope to be. Then there's the question of promotion items, who else is contesting Garcia's Hero Crest and Lute' s Guiding Ring? For the Hero Crests there are only myrmidons, fighters and mercenaries (which we'll delve into more specifically in a moment. For the Guiding Ring there are mages, monks, priests, clerics, troubadours and shamans already 3 more classes than the Hero Crest before we determine how many of each class there are and how many of the proposed promotion items there are throughout the campaign. For fighters only two possibilities Garcia and his son Ross (assuming you don't take Ross down the pirate route as the only user of the ocean seal), for myrmidons two possibilities again Joshua and Marisa, and mercs only Gerik (who comes with a hero crest in his inventory so he's almost not a contender) totally Hero Crest users to 5, and the number of Hero crests in the normal game? 3 in each route assuming no secret shop. For the sake of brevity the number of Guiding Ring users is 7, but the number of Guiding RIngs? 5 on each route (assuming 1 conditional is met and no secret shop).It's clear that Lute using the Guiding Ring restricts more units than Garcia using a Hero Crest and despite the Guiding Rings relative scarcity it costs the same as a Hero Crest so is equally detrimental to your personal funds. 

I'll later be addressing the differences in promotions, but I rest for now. 

Edited by CannedCaineghis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ive been looking forward to this. thank you for the opportunity. lets go.

4 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Combat: Garcia is locked to axes for many a year, however if there is a physical weapon type to be locked to axes are probably the best one thanks to the inexpensive nature of hand axes giving Garcia nearly perpetual 1-2 range. Garcia unfortunately has poor speed and luck, but makes up for this with nearly every other stat save Res (but very few physical combat units have amazing Res).

being locked to physical weapons on its own is generally worse than magical weapons, due to enemies consistently having low res, just like allies. on top of this, garcia does get hand axes right out, and 7 might is respectable in the early game, but 7 might falls off pretty quick. that being his only 1-2 range option hurts garcia, since lute gets to develop her 1-2 range options throughout the game and garcia is stuck having to decide between power and 1-2 range, a debate lute never need trifle herself with. since they have relatively similar speed throughout the game, lute can generally choose if she wants the higher speed of fire or the greater power of elfire.

up next is a lot of numbers, and the bases and growths are right, and im not pedantic enough to check your math, so well use these numbers.

with these numbers can come a lot of confusion. after all, there are a lot of them. so we should narrow it down to the stats that really count; speed(second best stat in the game) and  attack(super necessary for these two considering their roles as damage dealers). in this regard, garcia pulls ahead of lute in attack, always beating her by a point or two, but he loses out on speed, the more relevant one. the reason speed is more relevant than attack is that it functions as both an offensive stat, allowing a unit to wield heavier weapons and still double, as well as keeping the unit from being doubled themselves. its nice to see all the numbers, but hardly relevant.

6 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

Lastly let's talk about utility ´╗┐and affordability:
What we´╗┐nt unmentioned in base stats were the con and aid stats which Garcia overwhelming has more of so he could rescue drop more units than Lute could; though would be able to be rescue dropped by less (although that's far less important´╗┐ th´╗┐an bein´╗┐g´╗┐ able to rescue drop to begin with in any efficient play through).┬á

all of this would be true, if garcia had a horse. but alack! alay! he remains footlocked all game. rescuedropping is absolutely vital to an efficient playthrough, but it does little to nothing if theres more rescuing going on than dropping. the thing about garcia being footlocked is that he can only ever really rescue, since he lacks canto and cant move after rescuing. the only units with less movement than garcia are armor units, who rarely see the light of day in efficient play anyways. his high con/aid is actually to his detriment, since its harder for him to be rescuedropped, which is where infantry comes in in the grand scheme of rescuedropping strats. lute, on the other hand, with her tiny con can be picked up by even the likes of eirika, which makes it leagues easier for her to be rescuedropped. rescuedropping is used to add movement to otherwise sluggish characters, but garcia simply cant provide extra move for any unit worth your time to use, making his high con a curse.

lute can even rescue better than garcia, but well get there.

6 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

For the sake of brevity the number of Guiding Ring users is 7, but the number of Guiding RIngs? 5 on each route (assuming 1 conditional is met and no secret shop).It's clear that Lute using the Guiding Ring restricts more units than Garcia using a Hero Crest and despite the Guiding Rings relative scarcity it costs the same as a Hero Crest so is equally detrimental to your personal funds

well, lets get a head count of playable magic users in the game and then we will address why lute deserves it. outside of the fact that she is superior, after all.

first magic user you get is moulder, then artur and lute, then natasha, then l'arachel, then ewan and saleh, then knoll.

so lets whittle this list down to the ones who want and/or deserve a guiding ring. saleh is a sage, and is literally incapable of using it, so hes gone. ewan is a trainee, so if you even want to pretend youre playing efficiently, youre gonna bench him immediately, since hes more of a threat to your turn count than over half the enemies. next, were getting into some almost arguable units, but it whittles down the list real fast, since moulder, natasha, and l'arachel all dont need or want the guiding ring for the same reason; theyre staffbots. they shouldnt see enough combat to need the bonuses that come with a promotion. next is knoll, who doesnt really need it, since the first guiding ring you get in chapter 5, and theres no real reason to sit on it for 9 or 10 chapters before you get knoll. finally, it comes down to artur or lute. the reason lute should get the first one over artur is simple; she gets more useful material upon promotion. artur gets the slayer skill upon his optimal promo; a skill which is nigh invaluable in the late game. but, since these two could reasonably be promoted in the early to mid game, it basically just gives him weapon rank. lute, on the other hand, gets quite a bit. to put the less important part first, she gets d staves. a nice addition to her utility, but nothing spectacular.

what is spectacular is the mount she gets. this bumps her move up to 7, and her aid skyrockets from 2 to 14. this is actually higher than garcias aid as a hero, though not as a warrior. regardless, if garcia is good at rescuing, imagine how good lute is with the same job while also being able to put canto to use for rescuedropping. this puts lutes utility so far above garcia, since garcia is incapable of rescuedropping effectively ever. hes ok at the dropping part, but as far as the rescue part goes? virtually useless. and hes not even the best for dropping, since any mounted unit, mage knight lute included, will have to slow down to let him drop the rescued unit. lutes promo is significantly better because it gives her several new options and several new ways to be useful, where garcia has to rely on combat the whole time, which, due to his disappointing speed, is generally subpar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, side bee said:

 

being locked to physical weapons on its own is generally worse than magical weapons, due to enemies consistently having low res, just like allies. on top of this, garcia does get hand axes right out, and 7 might is respectable in the early game, but 7 might falls off pretty quick. that being his only 1-2 range option hurts garcia

 

Being locked to physical weapons is the nature of debate between a non-physical and a physical unit, but it's not as noteworthy as many would believe, after all we wouldn't say Lute is better than Seth because Seth is locked to physical weapons. Hand axes theoretically aren't Garcia's *only* 1-2 range option, after all if you're implying Ewan should be benched in an efficient run (which I agree with of course) than the same would be said of Ross (making my Hero Crest contention argument even stronger) giving Garcia exclusive access for awhile to the Hatchet which is light enough to give Garcia the ability to double in nearly all run ins in the early game aside from the occasional merc or myr.

2 hours ago, side bee said:

 so we should narrow it down to the stats that really count; speed(second best stat in the game) and  attack(super necessary for these two considering their roles as damage dealers)

You're right we should narrow the stats down to the ones that really count, and in nearly every other FE I would agree with you, but in Sacred Stones (maybe this is just my perspective as I haven't looked at average speed stats for enemies across the game or anything) the enemy seems incredibly slow most of the time. As mentioned above though even when this isn't the case Garcia is able to early game double thanks to the Hatchet and later on his speed stat will average into a place where he'll consistently double anyway in the mid and late game. Meaning the truly important difference between these two is their attack which you've already conceded Lute stays consistently behind on. 

2 hours ago, side bee said:

its nice to see all the numbers, but hardly relevant.

I have to disagree here, especially when it comes to the bases themselves, as I still believe RNG mitigation is the name of the FE game, so Garcia is less prone to being numbers screwed.

2 hours ago, side bee said:

all of this would be true, if garcia had a horse. but alack! alay! he remains footlocked all game. rescuedropping is absolutely vital to an efficient playthrough, but it does little to nothing if theres more rescuing going on than dropping. the thing about garcia being footlocked is that he can only ever really rescue, since he lacks canto and cant move after rescuing. the only units with less movement than garcia are armor units, who rarely see the light of day in efficient play anyways. his high con/aid is actually to his detriment, since its harder for him to be rescuedropped, which is where infantry comes in in the grand scheme of rescuedropping strats. lute, on the other hand, with her tiny con can be picked up by even the likes of eirika, which makes it leagues easier for her to be rescuedropped. rescuedropping is used to add movement to otherwise sluggish characters, but garcia simply cant provide extra move for any unit worth your time to use, making his high con a curse. 

I think you're deeply undervaluing the take and give commands here as often times in LTC and efficient strategies infantry units with high aid are used to give those precious extra few squares for the staffbots or boss killers in the set up turns especially earlier on. Though I'm willing to concede if Lute goes Mage Knight it's effectively a wash here as early game Garcia will have more utility while late game the utility will go to MK Lute. 

Also "the only units with less move with Garcia are armor knights" is somewhat irrelevant since this can be said about half the cast including Lute (since her and Garcia start with the same move) unless she goes Mage Knight (which effectively locks you into saying Mage Knight must be the superior promotion path for her). 

2 hours ago, side bee said:

well, lets get a head count of playable magic users in the game and then we will address why lute deserves it. outside of the fact that she is superior, after all.

She's somewhere in the contention for an early Guiding Ring for sure, but in LTC or efficient runs anyone that starts with a staff rank and will get weapon exp in staves with their promotion is a serious contender for them as well thanks to warp staves. Though I'm not interested in defending the other magic units in this particular debate, just wanted to point out the large number compared to the Hero Crest users. 

2 hours ago, side bee said:

what is spectacular is the mount she gets. this bumps her move up to 7,  lutes promo is significantly better because it gives her several new options and several new ways to be useful, where garcia has to rely on combat the whole time, which, due to his disappointing speed, is generally subpar.

I'd agree the mount is the best thing Lute gets from her promotion and it's tough for ANY non-mounted unit to contest a mounted one especially when canto exists, but as alluded to by you earlier her damage is inferior to Garcia's throughout the game (at least without considering she doubles), if she goes Mage Knight (magic cap 25) she loses that battle even further if Garcia goes Warrior (strength cap 30). I think my reference to the Hatchet earlier proves his speed can be *at least* par which gets rid of his only real weakness in combat as a physical unit, but we can take it even further when we consider the S rank weaponry. No matter which route or promotion path you take after chapter 15 Garcia with have access to Garm which grants a whooping +5 speed which he'll also have enough con to wield without suffering penalty effectively nullifying any issue he might have doubling in late-mid to late game. Does Lute make as effective use of her possible S rank weaponry?  No of course not as Excalibur gives +5 speed that Lute doesn't need, and has a weight of 13 enough to weigh down all but Mage Knight Lute except it also weighs MK Lute too since she only gains 3 con in her MK promotion path. Strictly speaking Garcia's combat will consistently outclass Lute's before we ever consider utility. 

And since we brought up move. Either promotion path for Garcia will bring him to 6 move only 1 less than Mage Knight Lute and equal to Sage Lute, canto is a big loss, but in general Garcia is fast enough to keep up with Lute on the front lines if you're clearing efficiently as there will be enemy units to fight. 

As to which class Garcia should go, either keeps him ahead of Lute in combat, as Hero will give him +2 spd allowing nearly guaranteed mid-game doubling and Warrior (the choice I think he should go given there are easier ways to combat his bad initial speed mentioned above) will give him the ability to do much more damage in a single strike. Neither weapon gain is worth much note aside from bows being able to take him out of the weapon triangle and swords giving him some control over it. 

What about Lute? Well it seems that Sage isn't worth mentioning as its move would only be on par with Garcia and the light magic is as useful as Garcia gaining swords is. So Mage Knight seems the logical choice giving the 1 point of movement over Garcia and the ability to aid finally (after who knows how many chapters of being unable to help in that department). Although that 1 move comes at a somewhat steep combat cost for Lute losing 1 of each of the "defensive" stats. 

There's also another consideration upon joining that I avoided touching on until now. Garcia joins at level 4 while Lute joins at level 1 which means of the "experience pie" Lute will need a bigger portion than Garcia to get to level 10 in order to promote, effectively depriving other units in your army of that same juicy experience they need. 

Edited by CannedCaineghis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/1/2019 at 10:27 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

w´╗┐hich effectively lock´╗┐s y´╗┐´╗┐ou into saying Mage Kni´╗┐ght must be t´╗┐he su´╗┐perior promotion path for her

a lock which i will wear with pride. i thought i should lead with this so it is understood that i will be assuming mage knight lute from here on.

On 7/1/2019 at 10:27 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

Bein´╗┐g locked to physical weapons is the nature of debate between a non-physical and a physical unit, but it's not as noteworthy as many would believe´╗┐´╗┐

this is true, but then, neither is garcias attack lead. in the early game, enemies actually have just enough defense more than they have res to where lute and garcias effective might against them is basically the same. this is one instance where high con is actually more useful than speed, although thats only because lute and garcia start with the same base speed, and lute is weighed down by fire. but the difference is her speed, and the might of tomes, will grow a hell of a lot faster than garcias con, which only grows on promo, and the might of handaxes, which never changes.

On 7/1/2019 at 10:27 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

Hand axes theoretically aren't Garcia's *only* 1-2 range option, after all if you're implying Ewan should be benched in an efficient run (which I agree with of course) than the same would be said of Ross (making my Hero Crest contention argument even stronger) giving Garcia exclusive access for awhile to the Hatchet which is light enough to give Garcia the ability to double in nearly all run ins in the early game aside from the occasional merc´╗┐ or myr.

yeah, i did forget about the hatchet, although for the sake of completeness i should mention that garcia isnt actually weighed down by the handaxe, all the hatchet really does is let garcia strike at 1-2 range using a weapon that isnt so clumsy.

on the one hand, this would seem to feed the con point. on quite another, it feeds into garcias greatest achilles heel; his speed. early game it works fine, although a big red flag should be thrown up that his base speed matches that of a level one unit's base speed; this level one's, in fact. lute and garcia start off tied in speed, but if we compare 10/1 stats, assuming promo occurs right away, lute has had 9 levels to grow in speed, and is sitting pretty at just about 12 speed, where garcia gets 6 levels, will on average have roughly 8 speed before promo, and, since

On 7/1/2019 at 10:27 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

Warrior [is] the choice I think he should go given there are easier ways to combat his bad initial speed mentioned above

he will remain slow post promo. and that gap will only get wider and wider between these two, since lutes speed growth is more than double garcias. thats bad, and more than makes up for her slightly lower attack stat, since she can always wield a lighter tome and lose less speed, but garcia cant wield a lighter axe and suddenly gain speed, the system just dont work that way. and 4 speed is a huge deal, since that is exactly enough to double in sacred stones.

easier ways to combat poor speed being read as speedwings, those are a far cry from the uncontested quality of hero crests. many, many units want those speedwings more than garcia, lute included. many units like lute can easily double provided the small boost a single speedwing provides, where garcia just cant see quite as much use from it.

On 7/1/2019 at 10:27 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

Meaning the truly important difference between these two is their attack which you've already conceded Lute stays consistently behind┬áon´╗┐.┬á

yes and no. in terms of raw stats, yeah lute is generally going to stay 2 points behind garcia, so in a sense, she is. but tomes are just better weapons than axes, on aggregate. this is due to all of them being 1-2 range, attacking the generally weaker res stats of enemies, and never having to choose between damage dealing and 1-2 range, where axes dont always get these luxuries. on top of this, axes are generally less accurate than tomes. that really puts a damper on garcias combat.

On 7/1/2019 at 10:27 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

She's somewhere in the contention for an early Guiding Ring for sure, but in LTC or efficient runs anyone that starts with a staff rank and will get weapon exp in staves with their promotion is a serious contender for them as well thanks to warp staves. Though I'm not interested in defending the other magic units in this particular debate, just wanted to point out the large number compared to the Hero Crest users. 

yeah looking back at it, that part does kind of distract from the point. but theres still a point to be made there; lutes promo benefits your whole army, garcias promo really only benefits garcia. lutes promo gives her canto, it gives her the ability to wield the warp staff, it lets her heal. granted, the warp staff requires some degree of investment into lute, but no amount of investment into garcia will ever let him use any staff, let alone warp, and no amount of dropping will ever quite reach that same level of efficiency that lute enjoys as a result of her prospective warp access.

i will cede the point about the hero crest though, but i would be remiss to not once more point out the chapter 5 guiding ring, which shows up 5 chapters before the first hero crest, so lute can promote before garcia even has his promo item in his inventory.

On 7/1/2019 at 10:27 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

her damage is inferior to Garcia's throughout the game (at least without considering she doubles), if she goes Mage Knight (magic cap 25) she loses that battle even further if Garcia goes Warrior (strength cap 30). I think my reference to the Hatchet earlier proves his speed can be *at least* par which gets rid of his only real weakness in combat as a physical unit, but we can take it even further when we consider the S rank weaponry. No matter which route or promotion path you take after chapter 15 Garcia with have access to Garm which grants a whooping +5 speed which he'll also have enough con to wield without suffering penalty effectively nullifying any issue he might have doubling in late-mid to late game. Does Lute make as effective use of her possible S rank weaponry?  No of course not as Excalibur gives +5 speed that Lute doesn't need, and has a weight of 13 enough to weigh down all but Mage Knight Lute except it also weighs MK Lute too since she only gains 3 con in her MK promotion path. Strictly speaking Garcia's combat will consistently outclass Lute's before we ever consider utility.

garcias combat is not really gonna outclass lutes by any signifcant margin, if it does at all.

she will very easily double more often than garcia, the hatchet, as previously stated, doesnt actually make garcia faster, and the +5 speed from garm should not be super necessary.

s-rank weapons are kinda weird to talk about though, since anyone who can wield them can kick the tar out of any endgame terror, generally one-rounding the enemy no matter who they are. even amelia can be good with vidofnir in her hands.

but lets quickly go over why lute being weighed down isnt a huge deal. excalibur is 13 weight, lutes con is 6, and the 5 unnecessary speed essentially serves as a con buff. (6+5)-13=-2. she loses out on 2 speed for an 18 might, 1-2 range weapon that is effective against basically everything in the last few chapters. i dont think thats too bad at all, and thanks to her horse it actually probably makes her the best contender for excalibur as well.

also, capped stats arent super relevant, since a 30 attack stat will never be even approaching necessary, but again assuming instant 10/1 promo, garcia actually on average ends up stopping just shy of 25 attack at 10/20. not that any of that matters, since capped stats arent going to come in until the end game, when s rank weapons are everywhere and terrors get one rounded by everyone anyway.

On 7/1/2019 at 10:27 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

Although that 1 move comes at a somewhat steep combat cost for Lute losing 1 of each of´╗┐ the "defensive" stats´╗┐.┬á

i mean, kinda? slightly worse defenses for a unit whose role is dps isnt a major problem, plus the mount gives her so many unique advantages over light magic i dont even really think its close, but maybe thats just me.

On 7/1/2019 at 10:27 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

There's also another c´╗┐onsideration upon joining that I avoided touching on until now. Garcia joins at level 4 while Lute joins at level 1 which means of the "experience pie" Lute will need a bigger portion than Garcia to get to level 10 in order to promote, effectively depriving other units in your army of that same juicy experience they need

this is true, but since her combat performance is just about as good as garcias out of the box, and her promo item comes earlier, and the bonuses are as good as they are, i dont think her taking it is unjust or a poor investment, even on efficiency playthroughs.

Edited by side bee
i did the math wrong for garcia. when i first posted this, it was like midnight and i calculated that garcia would have 10 speed on average, compared to the 8 speed he actually would have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before going further, I'd once again like to emphasize that Sacred Stones is a *very* easy FE and as such, speed becomes mostly irrelevant in the game very quickly as once a certain benchmark is met every unit will be able to double throughout the game. The only time Garcia might have trouble is early game which I've addressed. If for some reason he gets speed screwed the Garm addresses his late game speed and going Hero to sacrifice *some* power will combat his mid-game speed. 

13 hours ago, side bee said:

this is true, but then, neither is garcias attack lead. in the early game, enemies actually have just enough defense more than they have res to where lute and garcias effective might against them is basically the same. this is one instance where high con is actually more useful than speed, although thats only because lute and garcia start with the same base speed, and lute is weighed down by fire. but the difference is her speed, and the might of tomes, will grow a hell of a lot faster than garcias con, which only grows on promo, and the might of handaxes, which never changes.

While it's true that the hand axe might never changes, the tomahawk exists in Sacred stones and it isn't true that axes might is outclassed by tomes, especially when you consider weapons like (every other axe). The highest might tome is bolting with 20 mt, but that has what 5 uses? Not exactly going to have that consistently, the next highest is Fimbulvetr at 13 (if we're not counting S rank weapons). What "tier" of axe can compete with this A rank tome? The tomahawk, swordslayer, battle axe, devil axe, and silver axe have might equal to or higher than (most listed are here) Fimbulvetr. Meaning if Garcia ever combats in 1 range he'll easily outpace Lutes power in combat, but he can also do it in 1-2 range with the tomahawk throughout more of the game since these axes will almost all come earlier than Fimbulvetr. This is before considering that nearly all of his weapon choices won't weigh him down, which can't be said of Lute.   

13 hours ago, side bee said:

his base speed matches that of a level one unit's base speed; this level one's, in fact. lute and garcia start off tied in speed, but if we compare 10/1 stats, assuming promo occurs right away, lute has had 9 levels to grow in speed, and is sitting pretty at just about 12 speed, where garcia gets 6 levels, will on average have roughly 8 speed before promo, and, since

It's true that he's par with a level 1 unit in 1 stat, but considering he's a level 4 unit it isn't like they're supposed to start worlds apart, although many of Garcia's other stats as mentioned above would suggest that. Lute having to grow 9 levels is a detriment to the rest of your team, I'm more than willing for a unit to be slightly slower (in FE8) in order to make sure 3 levels are allocated to the rest of my team. And while I believe Warrior is the best choice for Garcia to go, if we're designing him specifically to combat Lute (which we aren't), he'll do better against her with Garm than she'll do in reverse with Excalibur so the speed gain from Hero isn't necessary as you seem to be implying by showcasing them 4 speed apart. 

13 hours ago, side bee said:

easier ways to combat poor speed being read as speedwings, those are a far cry from the uncontested quality of hero crests. many, many units want those speedwings more than garcia, lute included. many units like lute can easily double provided the small boost a single speedwing provides, where garcia just cant see quite as much use from it.

Well, as discussed Speedwings aren't the only way to combat poor speed, but assuming they are for a moment. No unit in Sacred Stones needs the speedwings to double, they could easily sit in the convoy unused with every other stat booster. However, that's a waste of a perfectly good stat booster, so between Lute and Garcia who benefits more from using it? According to your argument throughout this discussion Lute is so vastly superior to Garcia in speed she can basically double everything her and Garcia would come across throughout the game, so Garcia is the clear winner of who benefits more from the speedwings since his speed is nearly his only weakness (the other being that he's unmounted of course). 

13 hours ago, side bee said:

axes are generally less accurate than tomes. that really puts a damper on garcias combat.

It would, *if* his skill didn't consistently outpace Lute's therefore keeping his accuracy on par. 

13 hours ago, side bee said:

but theres still a point to be made there; lutes promo benefits your whole army, garcias promo really only benefits garcia. lutes promo gives her canto, it gives her the ability to wield the warp staff, it lets her heal. granted, the warp staff requires some degree of investment into lute, but no amount of investment into garcia will ever let him use any staff, let alone warp, and no amount of dropping will ever quite reach that same level of efficiency that lute enjoys as a result of her prospective warp access.

No, Garcia's promo also benefits the entire army, he gets better defensive stats and a higher damage output (and speed if you go Hero) making his combat better and his ability to wall sections of enemy units off even better than it was before. Lute's promotion does give canto (though the nerfed version, we aren't talking FE9 and 10 canto here) and access to staves (not access to warp out of the gate) which require Lute to be essentially benched as a staff bot until her staff rank is raised, where is Garcia at during that? On the frontlines helping you finish the chapter actively. Not to mention, there are better users of the warp staff than Lute since they will have their staff ranks high enough by the time you get a warp staff, making Lute at best a 2nd warper and at worst someone wasting turns and promotion items to become something she isn't the best at being. 

 

13 hours ago, side bee said:

garcias combat is not really gonna outclass lutes by any signifcant margin, if it does at all.

The point that it's in question at all between a physical and non-physical unit is a point in Garcia's favor. 

13 hours ago, side bee said:

she will very easily double more often than garcia, the hatchet, as previously stated, doesnt actually make garcia faster, and the +5 speed from garm should not be super necessary.

s-rank weapons are kinda weird to talk about though, since anyone who can wield them can kick the tar out of any endgame terror, generally one-rounding the enemy no matter who they are. even amelia can be good with vidofnir in her hands.

For the hatchet, my recent playthrough of FE8 has colored my perspective a bit since at least for me, it did seem to allow Garcia to double more often in the early game, but perhaps he would've with any weapon I tried which only bolsters Garcia as a unit. 

I only mentioned the s-rank weaponry to prove that no matter what path Garcia goes down, he's extremely capable of being a late game powerhouse despite his initial poor speed. He doesn't require Garm to do it by any means, but it provides blanket coverage. After all, there aren't many other viable axe users in an efficient playthrough. 

Comparing Garcia even implicitly to Amelia is pretty extreme considering the coddling required to do anything with Amelia in an efficient playthrough, which we both know Garcia doesn't require, so Garm + Garcia is far more likely to occur in efficient playthroughs than Ameilia + Vidofnir. 

13 hours ago, side bee said:

but lets quickly go over why lute being weighed down isnt a huge deal. excalibur is 13 weight, lutes con is 6, and the 5 unnecessary speed essentially serves as a con buff. (6+5)-13=-2. she loses out on 2 speed

Funny considering this earlier argument

13 hours ago, side bee said:

4 speed is a huge deal, since that is exactly enough to double in sacred stones.

If 4 speed is a huge deal, losing 2 speed certainly sounds like *a* deal. 

13 hours ago, side bee said:

also, capped stats arent super relevant, since a 30 attack stat will never be even approaching necessary, but again assuming instant 10/1 promo, garcia actually on average ends up stopping just shy of 25 attack at 10/20. not that any of that matters, since capped stats arent going to come in until the end game, when s rank weapons are everywhere and terrors get one rounded by everyone anyway.

I agree that capped stats aren't super relevant, but that are *somewhat* relevant if you're fielding Lute or Garcia in the late game, you're still getting them level ups and caps matter if you're getting levels still because we have to ask "Who is benefiting more from these mid to late game level ups?" 

13 hours ago, side bee said:

i mean, kinda? slightly worse defenses for a unit whose role is dps isnt a major problem,

It's a problem this community often doesn't talk about when it comes to magic units. They have actual eternal 1-2 range, but how they perform in 1 range often shows that they are only ever going to be used in 2 range (especially early to mid game, a problem you'll note Garcia doesn't have early to mid game). For instance, let's say we have a map full of enemies; we can either put Lute in the middle of them all, or we can put Garcia. Who would have the advantage when surrounded? Who would have the advantage if the enemy charges our army? Who would have the advantage if we charge them? Garcia is the answer in every case because he can take far more 1-2 range hits from the enemy and still has access to 1-2 range weaponry just like Lute. 

 

I'd like to take this last post opportunity to once again thank you side bee for the invitation and I hope to debate with you again! You presented some well thought out arguments. I hope my tone never crossed into hostile in this debate as that would never be my intention (hard to understand tone through text).  The debate not withstanding, I started this not liking Garcia or Lute that much as units, but now I want to do a run of FE8 using them as part of my core team. I do wish you'd of touched on Lute's story aspects (which perhaps you'll be doing in your last post)  as stats and what not are fine and obviously what win debates, but support convos and such are where I actually find a love for the Fire Emblem characters. 

In that spirit I'll be making my last argument. Supports. What they both get and who gets greater benefits. Let's jump into the best for both immediately.

For Garcia the big draw for supports is easily Seth. He's the best unit inarguably in the game and you'll want to field him in every chapter unless he's banned in a draft or ranked run. Garcia is fire while Seth is anima so at just their B rank will give them bonuses to everything: attack, defense, accuracy, avoid, critical evade, and critical. While C rank will give every bonus except defense. Effectively negating Garcia's early poor luck and the unweildiness inherent to axes to balance them out, not to mention further accelerating him into a combat powerhouse due to the additional crit and attack.

How does Lute fare? Which is best is a bit more complicated, but we assume it's by unit viability she'd go with Vanessa, Kyle or Artur. I'd be inclined to say Vanessa. Assuming that what does Lute get? Well unfortunately Lute and Vanessa are both anima so throughout their supports they'll be locked to only getting bonuses for Attack, Defense, Avoid and Critical Evade missing out on Critical and Accuracy. Unfortunately the only real benefit for Lute here is defense (which will be a fairly small bonus even at A rank) and Avoid which isn't inconsiderable, but you can only avoid for so long without rng manipulation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, CannedCaineghis said:

I'd like to take this last post opportunity to once again thank you side bee for the invitation and I hope to debate with you again! You presented some well thought out arguments. I hope my tone never crossed into hostile in this debate as that would never be my intention (hard to understand tone through text).  The debate not withstanding, I started this not liking Garcia or Lute that much as units, but now I want to do a run of FE8 using them as part of my core team. I do wish you'd of touched on Lute's story aspects (which perhaps you'll be doing in your last post)  as stats and what not are fine and obviously what win debates, but support convos and such are where I actually find a love for the Fire Emblem characters.

i find it really funny that you say this, actually, since i felt like my tone tended to cross over into the unnecessarily sarcastic and mean at times, which i felt bad for. but youve been super nice this whole time, and i really enjoyed this argument. you offered up a lot of really strong arguments which were tricky to combat. i would love to debate more with you in the future!

and, i wasnt really planning on it, but if you want a character/ story analysis, then dammit, ill give you one. gives me a reason to gush over my favorite sacred stones character anyway, so id be more than happy to oblige.

lute is a young girl who joins as a mage in chapter four, alongside her childhood friend, artur. she is characterized as extremely arrogant and intelligent right away, almost immediately declaring herself a prodigy, joining eirikas group for the sake of researching the monsters which plague the continent. her support conversations generally reveal a similar persona, plus a tendency towards bizarre behaviors, see flooding arturs room with spiders to help him with his arachnaphobia, actually trying to take the wings from vanessas pegasus when vanessa convinces lute that pegasus wings are an aphrodisiac, etc.

despite her arrogance and understanding of her situation(i.e. war, as seen in her ross b support where she calls talking not "strategically valuable"), lute is shown to have a goofy, darkly comical side to her, such as the aforementioned artur incident, but also in her b support with vanessa where she jokes about attacking vanessas pegasus.

but one of my favorite things about her is her death quote, which reads simply "but i dont want to die..." the way this bounces off her normally comical behavior, as well as its contrast with other, more melodramatic death quotes in the series, makes it all the more heartbreaking to me. this is my favorite death quote in the series, and the simple reason is that i feel it really puts into perspective the fact that lute is still very young, late teens at the oldest, and the tragedy of losing life at such a young age. but maybe thats just me.

once more, i would like to reiterate that ive had fun, i think a lot of your arguments were super strong, id love to do this again, and i hope i havent come off as too sarcastic, especially since i think youve been really nice. that in mind, i present my final statements.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:56 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

While it's true that the hand axe might never changes, the tomahawk exists in Sacred stones and it isn't true that axes might is outclassed by tomes, especially when ythe ou consider weapons like (every other axe). The highest might tome is bolting with 20 mt, but that has what 5 uses? Not exactly going to have that consistently, the next highest is Fimbulvetr at 13 (if we're not counting S rank weapons). What "tier" of axe can compete with this A rank tome? The tomahawk, swordslayer, battle axe, devil axe, and silver axe have might equal to or higher than (most listed are here) Fimbulvetr. Meaning if Garcia ever combats in 1 range he'll easily outpace Lutes power in combat, but he can also do it in 1-2 range with the tomahawk throughout more of the game since these axes will almost all come earlier than Fimbulvetr. This is before considering that nearly all of his weapon choices won't weigh him down, which can't be said of Lute.   

the difference between def and res in the early game does make the higher might of tomes less noticeable, but that gap, like the speed gap, only grows. i will be touching on a lot of these points later on, but the number one thing i wanted to point out was "if garcia ever combats in 1 range," since the tradeoff from axes to tomes is striking on the lower defensive stat, and getting the option of going 1 or 2 range and not having to worry about giving up might.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:56 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

It's true that he's par with a level 1 unit in 1 stat, but considering he's a level 4 unit it isn't like they're supposed to start worlds apart

precisely! garcia never outpaces lute to the point where lute will be able to outpace garcia. they dont start worlds apart, their combat is just about even, and lute gets a horse in the midgame, where garcia can never have one. lute can wield staves, starting with mend and being able to heal 34 health to just about any unit on the frontline considering her above average movement. before promotion, garcia doesnt really outpace lute, if he does at all. after promo, however, lute flies ahead in terms of utility, so even if her combat is for some reason not good enough, she can make herself useful in other ways.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:56 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

It would, *if* his skill didn't consistently outpace Lute's therefore keeping his accura´╗┐cy on par.┬á ´╗┐

it doesnt, at least not to the point where it makes up for how clumsy axes are.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:56 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

No, Garcia's promo also benefits the entire army, he gets better defensive stats and a higher damage output (and speed if you go Hero) making his combat better and his ability to wall sections of enemy units off even better than it was before. Lute's promotion does give canto (though the nerfed version, we aren't talking FE9 and 10 canto here) and access to staves (not access to warp out of the gate) which require Lute to be essentially benched as a staff bot until her staff rank is raised, where is Garcia at during that? On the frontlines helping you finish the chapter actively. Not to mention, there are better users of the warp staff than Lute since they will have their staff ranks high enough by the time you get a warp staff, making Lute at best a 2nd warper and at worst someone wasting turns and promotion items to become something she isn't the best at being.

firstly, lute gets similar promo bonuses. a +2 to both defenses and to her attack stat is nothing to sneeze at, though she doesnt really need to wall(more foreshadowing, ooh).

the point i was making about the warp staff, which, in retrospect was a little unclear, wasnt necessarily that lute is an excellent warp user, just that she can be a warp user at all, but garcia will never be. its something lute potentially has going for her that garcia can never have.

canto, while not on the level of tellius or, god forbid, fe4, is still powerful, and more useful than just the drop command.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:56 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

The point that it's in question at all between a physical and non-physical unit is a point in Garcia's favor. 

the point that its in question between a level 1 unit and a level 4 unit who joins 2 chapters earlier is a point in lutes.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:56 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

Comparing Garcia even implicitly to Amelia is pretty extreme considering the coddling required to do anything with Amelia in an efficient playthrough, which we both know Garcia doesn't require, so Garm + Garcia is far more likely to occur in efficient playthroughs than Ameilia + Vidofnir.

it is, but the point isnt the garcia/amelia comparison, its the extreme power of s rank weapons. i am in no way saying that amelia is anywhere near garcia, never fear, but the point is that even the worst unit in the game can even wield these weapons to an efficient capacity. it may as well have been any lance wielder out of a hat+ vidofnir. franz, gilliam, vanessa, tana, syrene, etc.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:56 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

If 4 speed is a huge deal, losing 2 speed certainly sounds like *a* deal. 

I agree that capped stats aren't super relevant, but that are *somewhat* relevant if you're fielding Lute or Garcia in the late game, you're still getting them level ups and caps matter if you're getting levels still because we have to ask "Who is benefiting more from these mid to late game level ups?

lets talk briefly about them since they do matter a little. the reason 2 speed isnt a deal at all in comparison to garcia is because lutes speed growth is so absurdly better than garcias. ive done the math, lute should have about 13 speed levels on average by the end of the game(9 to get to level 10+20 to max her promo level=29x.45=13.05) where garcia, even if you feed him those sweet, sweet midgame levels to the point where he gets an even number of levels will, get roughly 6 speed levels(9 to level 13+20 to max promo level=29x.2=5.8). considering their even bases, this accounts for a 7 speed difference, which means that garcia has to be wielding garm and lute has to be weighed down by 2 in order for their speed to break even. lute defo benefits from those midgame levels more, since, if she isnt promoted yet, she gets a mount and staves, but if she is promoted, she still gets obscenely high speed, letting her wield some really strong, heavy tomes and still having her options open to change her tome of choice if need be.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:56 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

It's a problem this community often doesn't talk about when it comes to magic units. They have actual eternal 1-2 range, but how they perform in 1 range often shows that they are only ever going to be used in 2 range (especially early to mid game, a problem you'll note Garcia doesn't have early to mid game). For instance, let's say we have a map full of enemies; we can either put Lute in the middle of them all, or we can put Garcia. Who would have the advantage when surrounded? Who would have the advantage if the enemy charges our army? Who would have the advantage if we charge them? Garcia is the answer in every case because he can take far more 1-2 range hits from the enemy and still has access to 1-2 range weaponry just like Lute. 

this is basically  what ive been building to this whole time. a rundown of why mages dont care about defensive stats.

first of all, defensive stats are often mage dump stats. an extra point of defense doesnt often help a mages performance, all told, since they really are just meant to deal damage on player phase, and def or res just is not a means to that end.

moreover, a mage doesnt have to worry about defenses for a very specific reason that you just mentioned; they have perpetual 1-2 range. this increases their survival chances more than any defense number because they can just decide to not get countered all game, except for the odd enemy wielding a 1-2 range weapon themselves, but these enemies often have low res anyway, so it makes more sense to use a mage to attack.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:56 PM, CannedCaineghis said:

In that spirit I'll be making my last argument. Supports. What they both get and who gets greater benefits. Let's jump into the best for both immediately.

For Garcia the big draw for supports is easily Seth. He's the best unit inarguably in the game and you'll want to field him in every chapter unless he's banned in a draft or ranked run. Garcia is fire while Seth is anima so at just their B rank will give them bonuses to everything: attack, defense, accuracy, avoid, critical evade, and critical. While C rank will give every bonus except defense. Effectively negating Garcia's early poor luck and the unweildiness inherent to axes to balance them out, not to mention further accelerating him into a combat powerhouse due to the additional crit and attack.

How does Lute fare? Which is best is a bit more complicated, but we assume it's by unit viability she'd go with Vanessa, Kyle or Artur. I'd be inclined to say Vanessa. Assuming that what does Lute get? Well unfortunately Lute and Vanessa are both anima so throughout their supports they'll be locked to only getting bonuses for Attack, Defense, Avoid and Critical Evade missing out on Critical and Accuracy. Unfortunately the only real benefit for Lute here is defense (which will be a fairly small bonus even at A rank) and Avoid which isn't inconsiderable, but you can only avoid for so long without rng manipulation. 

supports in the gba games arent super good, since theyre slow in general, but especially if you wanna do the seth/garcia support all youre doing is slowing yourself down, since seth cant extend as far if you want him to get those sweet, delicious support points, since garcias early game movement is so much slower than seths. yes, they do get minor bonuses to a bunch of stuff, but at the expense of efficiency for your army. contrasted with lute, whose artur support builds fast, gives her evade, crit evade, accuracy, and a bit of attack. its better than seth/garcia since neither unit in artur/lute has to slow down to match pace with the other, and its just a faster support on its own.

with that, i submit my final argument, and await the judges with bated breath. well done, canned caineghis. well done.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...